SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mk. II

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#1

Credits for this amazing banner go to user: monomite! Make sure to check his stuff out :)

Welcome to the SM UU Viability Ranking Thread, brought to you by first-time host, me! It's an honor to have the torch passed to me from previous host, Pearl. As always, I'll be assisted a team of players with extensive knowledge of the current metagame, who will help me going through nominations made in this thread, as well as metagame shifts caused by drops and successful retests. The group in question is subject to change, however, and they're not the only people whose opinion I'll be consulting frequently.

So where do you come in? In light of our current rankings, it's the community's duty to refine them in order to more accurately reflect the true viability of all relevant Pokemon in the UU metagame. Because our guesses will come before much meaningful experience using Pokemon will have occurred, we can't be accurate enough without your help. Post about the Pokemon that you have experience with, but try not to let your personal bias oversell any Pokemon.

The S tier contains a select few metagame-defining Pokemon, the best of the best. The A tiers reflect on the Pokemon which are extremely effective but flawed in some aspects. The B tier is slightly more expansive, with the B+ tier representing Pokemon that are fairly common and threatening but don't quite make the cut for A-, while the B- tier represents Pokemon who fill minor, but relevant, niches. Below the B tier, the generic C tier displays the rest of the Pokemon that are usable in UU, but don't have a niche that is appreciated by most UU teams. Finally, the D rank will only include Pokemon that are tiered in UU by usage, but have no viable niche in the metagame. Furthermore, discussion on D-ranked Pokemon is NOT ALLOWED in this thread.

The UU Viability Ranking Council will be the same as the UU tiering council for now, but as I've mentioned before, this may be subject to change.

S Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Latias
Scizor

A Rank

A+ Rank

Cobalion

A Rank

Beedrill (Mega)
Gliscor
Krookodile
Pidgeot (Mega)
Primarina
Sharpedo (Mega)
Weavile
Xurkitree

A- Rank

Blastoise (Mega)
Celebi
Hippowdon
Hydreigon
Mamoswine
Klefki
Starmie
Swampert
Togekiss

B Rank

B+ Rank

Absol (Mega)
Amoonguss
Empoleon
Hawlucha
Infernape
Nidoking
Ninetales (Alola)
Raikou
Slowbro
Steelix (Mega)
Suicune
Tentacruel
Terrakion
Volcanion

B Rank

Azelf
Blissey
Froslass
Jellicent
Magneton
Mandibuzz
Muk (Alola)
Sceptile (Mega)
Talonflame
Venomoth

B- Rank

Alomomola
Chandelure
Crawdaunt
Doublade
Entei
Haxorus
Kyurem
Mantine
Metagross
Mienshao
Nidoqueen
Reuniclus
Rotom (Cut)
Slowking
Snorlax
Sylveon
Toxicroak
Zygarde-10%

C Rank

C+ Rank

Chesnaught
Crobat
Decidueye
Feraligatr
Forretress
Florges
Gastrodon
Lucario
Ribombee
Roserade
Shuckle
Tsareena

C Rank

Aerodactyl
Bewear
Bronzong
Cofagrigus
Cresselia
Darmanitan
Flygon
Gigalith
Kommo-o
Milotic
Minior
Necrozma
Ninetales
Porygon2
Quagsire
Salazzle
Stoutland
Swellow
Tornadus
Venusaur
Whimsicott

C- Rank

Bruxish
Cloyster
Honchkrow
Moltres
Omastar
Alolan Persian
Silvally

D Rank

Arcanine

New Pokemon Rank

Abomasnow (Mega)
Aggron (Mega)
Banette (Mega)
Camerupt (Mega)

BLACKLIST:
Darmanitan
 
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#4
idk, does this mean should just copy and paste my post about how we should move down Cresselia if we decide to move down Necrozma as well?
 
#5
Welcome to the new thread, everyone!

Changes:

Gengar to B+: See Hogg's post for reasoning. Basically, the ubiquity of Pursuit from the likes of Scarf Krook and Mea Aero just ruins this thing's day. It's absolutely brutal versus slower teams that lack Pursuit, though. But it just isn't consistent enough for this reason to fit amongst the likes of Celebi and Swampert.
Mega Blastoise to A-:
Blastoise has been on the rise recently, and for good reason. Nasty as hell versus bulky offence, the most common playstyle in the tier at the moment. Its ability to soft-check / 1v1 such a large amount of threats guarantees it at least a kill or two in most matchups. It also forms an extremely effective offensive core with Talonflame, making the few things that can reliably switch in very easy to pressure.
Talonflame to B:
Mega Aero may be everywhere, but priority Skystrike + outspeeding pretty much everything that isn't Aero + Fire STAB makes it an absolute headache for frailer offence teams to face. It isn't deadweight versus bulkier teams, either, due to its ability to significantly dent balance staples like Hippowdon before going down.
Gliscor to A:
Discussed in the previous thread. One of the more splashable Pokemon in the tier at the moment. Between Taunt, Toxic, Swords Dance, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, U-turn, its multiple coverage options, and unusually high Speed tier for such a bulky Pokemon, it's also one of the more customizeable and unpredictable ones, too, making it a nuisance for a wide variety of teams.
Krookodile to A+:
Refer again to Hogg's post. Scarf Krookodile is one of the most potent revenge killers around. The sheer spammability of its STAB's, Pursuit, its coverage options in Superpower, Stone Edge, and Iron Tail, and the possibility of a Choice Band set, a Z-Move, or a more utility-based Rocky Helmet set makes it all the more scary. Intimidate and Electric immunity also gives it some clutch as hell defensive utility versus stuff like Sharpedo and Raikou, as well.
Terrakion placed in A:
For reasons discussed during the suspect. Terrifying offensive typing + a multitude of viable sets, making it quite unpredictable, but its utter lack of defensive utility compared to its Fighting-type brethren, flawed Speed tier, and lack of spammable STAB on Choice sets makes it much easier to manage than it seems on paper.

Some discussion points for y'all to kick things off:

Latias to S
Volcanion to B+
Nidoking to B+ / A-
Snorlax to B-
Alolan Persian to C
Venomoth to B-
 
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Roseguardin

formerly skywardsword596
#6
I think the last thread was in pretty solid agreement that Latias deserved S-Rank thanks to its typing, bulk, great speed tier and versatility. With Calm Mind and one of Devastating Drake, Shattered Psyche or Gigavolt Havoc it can bust through would-be checks like Krookodile, Clefable, Togekiss, and bulky Water-types. Defog sets are also great supporters that don't take up a Mega slot or get chipped as much by Stealth Rock while also being immune to Spikes and Tspikes. Latias does have problems as it can be stopped depending on what coverage move it runs or if its Z-Move gets blown out and Pursuit is everywhere, especially on the criminally underused AV Metagross which can take almost anything and trap it.
 
#7
Forgot to mention we also placed
Starmie in A-, for reasons laid out by Pearl in the previous thread. The defensive set is far too weak and passive and is generally outdone by Tentacruel, while offensive, although a monster to switch in to, is worn down extremely quickly by hazard damage, Life Orb recoil, weather, etc. It also lacks the defensive utility that you typically want from your offensive Water-type due to its only OK bulk, meaning you need to add more to your team to be safe against Keldeo et al.
 
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#8
I've been thinking about Latias going to S for about a quick minute and I still think it should stay A+. I don't feel like Latias is on the same level as Scizor/Clefable but, I will say that Latias is just as good as Mega Aero. Aside from the typical S rank comparisons, I don't think Latias is better than most of the A+ rank. Bisharp, Cobalion, Krookodile, and Keldeo are all just as good as Latias in my opinion. Bisharp is a better sweeper than Latias but lacks other solid sets and defensive synergy, Cobalion/Krookodile have many different sets like Latias, and Keldeo is just as good as being a bulky offensive threat like Latias (maybe even better because it can take on pokemon in higher ranks better). Latias is a fantastic offensive pivot with recovery, and I even think that that is it's best quality. And I will say that although Latias is over centralizing to an extent, so is the rest of A+ rank. I just feel like people want Latias in S rank because M-Aero is in it.

Volcanion to B+ is something I feel like most of us want yet, we know it's a classic threat to worry about. Volcanion is really good with specs and grassium z but, at the same time it's tough to use with them. Steam Eruption + Fire Blast are great for dual STABs even though it is pretty easy to cover them defensively. At the same time Volc has a pretty good movepool and a lot of the times you're forced into 50/50s of what set it is or what move it'll use. What doesn't help Volc is it's shit speed tier. I would say that the only stat that's holding it back is it's speed. The SR weakness is whatever, it's still a bulky power house that shits on half the meta. At the end of the day, though, I think that Volcanion should stay A- rank because I feel like Volc's pros outweighs it's cons. I could see it going down to B+ rank, though, since it has a lack of consistency in breaking teams.

Alolan Persian should be C rank. It's not all that passive due to the momentum it brings with parting shot (Bisharp obviously excluded) and it's a great defensive pivot with access to taunt for many physical threats. I will say that it's typing does hold it back, being weak to fighting and bug sucks quite a bit since fighting types are everywhere and Scizor is at the top of the food chain as a physical attacker. I also want to add that Alolan Persian isn't just useful for taking on physical threats but, special attacking threats too since A-Persian is so fast, it does allow other pokemon to come in safely and to not take that much chip damage if they are a check to the threat without recovery. Lowering Keldeo's and Latias' special attack stat is HUGE; a weaker Z draco meteor/hyper beam is fantastic, not to mention that the parting shot cancels out the calm mind special atk raise they might go for on the switch. Z-parting shot is a neat niche for set up sweepers too.
 

Tony

is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#9
Latias should definitely move up to S, in my opinion. I feel across the initial posts here, as well as a bunch more in Pearl's VR thread, a good number of reasons as to why it should be are covered, but maybe those reasons are underestimated somewhat. "Pursuit is everywhere!", for example. Well, it's kind of annoying that supposed checks like Scarf Krookodile and Aerodactyl-Mega actually fail to check, let alone trap, any Z-Move Latias set. AV Metagross, as SkywardSword596 pointed out in their post, is an admittedly great check to Latias, but is prone to Pursuit trapping itself, too. I just read through tmacbalanced's post about Latias as well and I have to say that I find myself disagreeing with it pretty much entirely. I don't at all think other A+ 'mons like Bisharp and Keldeo are as good as Latias, while Bisharp isn't half the sweeper Latias is either, in my opinion.

I think there are two main reasons the "Latias is broken" and "Latias should be S Rank" arguments are currently trending. The first being that Latias is being used way more as a Calm Mind set-up sweeper as it was before, when Defog sets were commonly ran, too. The second being that we've seen way too many a good amount of games in UUPL recently, where a Latias handily dismantled the opposing team by itself. The latter doesn't just matter for the tournament and those involved, it matters for public perception, too. Looking at how Latias is currently affecting the SM UU metagame and the team building precautions it requires us to take, I firmly believe it's worthy of being S ranked.

Ban Entei in ORAS, btw. :c
 

Cynde

winter ♥
is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#10
I too agree that Latias should be moved up to S rank. Primarily based on the sheer effectiveness of its Calm Mind set, though thats not to take away from its other ones, Calm Mind is just by far the most fearsome. It's extremely unpredictable with all the right tools to get past several of its checks, leaving the opponent to deal with a serious guessing game right from the word go. This forces teams to run a plethora of counter measures to Latias (fairies, steels, dark pursuit mons being on SO many teams and yet Latias stands above a lot of them as one of the most dominating offensive forces this tier has to contend with.) , the most consistent of which being Pursuit, a move that is almost mandatory on all teams not on either extremes of the spectrum (HO or Stall). It heavily pressures all teams and does so easily. Then there are its defensive capabilities which are enormous, primarily arising from the combination of its high speed, reliable recovery, and typing. Making it just about one of the most effective offensive and defensive pokemon this tier has to offer. It is capable of soft checking extremely potent threats such as Keldeo and Volcanion and is a big reason why they are unable to ascend in viability. It has essentially become the go to mon for most teams for both offensive and defensive purposes and dominates in both categories, which warrant a rise imo.

There's literally no way Bisharp can compare in effectiveness considering how linear it is, lack of any sort of defensive prowess, and how reliant it is on sucker punch (an unreliable priority move). None of the other pokemon that tmacbalanced mentioned, such as Cobalion, Krookodile come even close to pressuring teams the way Latias can, with the exception of Keldeo.

I also wanna talk a bit about Snorlax and the recent use of its Recycle set (it should run iapapa berry and be called PapaLax) by people like Pearl / Star in ULT / UUPL (i think) are indicative of how useful its raw bulk and new found immediate recovery can be. It's a Pokemon that is capable of acting as a win condition, checking big big threats like Latias (a more spdef one can even eat z draco at +1 after rocks) raikou and gengar (sans taunt) to name a few. It also heavily benefits from now being able to run additional coverage in EQ / Fire Punch which can punish stuff like Cobalion and Scizor, respectively. It is a damn useful pivot and has a lot more to offer both offensively and defensively than the other mons in C+ so I think it's worthy of a rise. Maybe even to B in the future.
 
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#12
Latias deserves S rank because it's so much more difficult to deal with in practice than on paper. On the calm mind set alone, Latias has so many viable moves and options between coverage and even items, that it sometimes feels like a guessing game when finding a switch in to it. Pursuit trappers can't actually kill it from full if it stays in, and risk being nuked by Draco. The other things in A+ don't even come close to being on the same level. Bisharp has one good set in SD (ass vest and scarf are bad, sorry), Cobalion needs to set up to actually break through teams, and it has less versatility in coverage when compared to Latias, meaning that you don't have to worry about whether your counter actually counters as often. Sharpedo needs to have the other team softened up to do its job. Keldeo's shallow movepool really screws it over as it struggles to break through other teams as easily as Latias. Krookodile is really good, but not nearly as oppressive as Latias.

Even when compared to the rest of S rank, it's able to beat them all, Scizor has never been a good answer, as outside of Scarf, it needs to have Latias weakened so it can kill, and hp fire is a staple, hell z thunder hurts too. Clefable can actually lose if it switches in on calm mind assuming it's magic guard lmao. Aerodactyl needs to have it weakened to kill with pursuit or even stone edge, and Latias can dispose of it if it suffers from even a small amount of damage. Idk sorry for the rant, I just feel like people who argue to keep it out of S are looking at how it performs on paper instead of practice, since as uupl has shown, great players can easily abuse Latias to dismantle the other team, and while Latias might be easier to handle in the future, for now it is pretty absurd, and keeping it out of S seems wrong to me.

My thoughts on the other discussion points are in the old thread, I don't feel like posting them again or looking for and linking my post lol. Basically drop Volcanion and raise Nidoking and Venomoth.
 
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#13
Before I begin, good luck hosting the threat, eht! Not like you will need it; I am sure you will do really well! ;)

A+ -> S: Agree
Currently, Latias is the Pokémon that gives me the most trouble and you probably know that I am not talking about the offensive defog set from ORAS OU; I am talking about the CM + Z-Crystal set. In my opinion, the best variation of the set is Z-Draco Meteor, which works so well, thanks to Latias' great speed and a good special attack stat, further boosted by STAB and Calm Mind. Just pair it with Magnezone and you are good to go. It can also run Z-Psychic for the OHKO on the standard Calm Mind Clefable or Z-Thunder for Empoleon and Scizor.

The fact is holds a Z-Crystal over anything else makes it that the most common Dark move, Knock Off, is only 65BP against it, so Scarf Krookodile isn't as good of a check as it was. Mega Aerodactyl's Pursuit isn't a 2HKO either so before it manages to hit Latias with two Stone Edges, Latias is able to nuke it with its respectable Z-powered move.

All in all, Latias' unpredictability, diversity, natural bulk, good offensive stats and typing certainly makes it worth being a S-ranked threat in the current metagame.

B->B+/A-: Agree

Nidoking is a great powerhouse. Its Life Orb + Sheer Force boosted attacks coupled with average offensive stats and huge movepool make it arguably the most difficult Pokémon to switch into. Correct me if I am wrong; it has coverage to beat each of its common switch-ins: Blissey is 2HKO'd by Superpower and... just checked the list of the viable Pokémon in UU and really, nothing wants to switch into it. The best way of dealing with it is with faster Pokémon, which is absurd. Clefable's popularity make it even better than it was before.

Also, something I would love to hear you people's opinion about:
Unranked -> ???
Ok, before anything: no hate pls.
Moltres is a Pokémon I have been toying around with lately. I thought it would be a really cool idea to use it, as it has Primarina-level power, good offensive and defensive typing and a great speed - I just slapped it with a Choice Specs and started building a team around it. It honestly wasn't so difficult to build around it, since all the support it needs is mainly hazard and speed control.

On one hand, its typing and good bulk allows it to switch-in on many Pokémon such as Scizor, Clefable and Cobalion. Its has a really good typing combination offensively too - water types that may wanna switch into a Fire Blast don't appreciate a Hurricane and steel types that may wanna switch into a Hurricane don't appreciate a Fire Blast at all. It can 2HKO everything that doesn't resist it except for blobs such as Blissey and Porygon2. Not only that, it has access to U-turn which allows it to keep up the offensive momentum on the field.

On the other hand, its typing leaves it weak 4 time to Stealth Rock. It doesn't have good coverage either and its movepool is pretty limited.

Pros:
  • A good offensive typing (as explained above).
  • A good defensive typing that allows it to come in on common Pokémon such as Scizor, Clefable and Cobalion.
  • A good ability that punishes physical attackers such as Scizor: Flame Body.
  • Primarina-level power and powerful STAB moves.
  • Decent speed for such a powerful wallbreaker.
  • U-turn.
Cons:
  • Its typing leave it 4 times weak to Stealth Rock, limiting its switch-in opportunities while Stealth Rock are set on your side of the battle.
  • Limited movepool and coverage.
  • Set-up bait for Hone Claws Mega Aerodactyl.
  • Its two most powerful STAB moves don't have perfect accuracy.
  • Having a hazards removal is mandatory.
Just going to drop some calcs:
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 237-280 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 186-220 (50 - 59.1%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 238-282 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-574368760 - Grabbing 3 kills against a team with three Fire resists.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-574358532 - Nothing can switch into its STAB combination.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-574290724 - Again, almost no switch-ins.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-574383161 - Same as above, lol.

Thus, I honestly think Moltres should be ranked lol.

Thanks for reading!
 
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#14
For Snorlax, I haven't used it much, but i watched a lot of the UUPL replays, and the figy berry/whatever berry it is + recycle set is honestly so good?
reliable recovery in trade for leftovers is so powerful, especially considering it frees up a move slot from the traditional rest talk curse set and it now can avoid being walled by ghost types anymore!!

Obviously you don't have to run a curse set, you can alternatively run a worse blissey with more offensive presence i guess lmao but ya like having non-rest recovery is so good for snorlax, enough to deserve a rise imo.


Also on Moltres, in terms of reliably doing what its supposed to do i can see it fitting in C- with the likes of darmanitan
would be a great nuke if not for noticeable flaws (shaky accuracy, 4x rocks) comparable to (main damaging move causes recoil, 2x rocks, suicune/alomolaoalaaoala exists)
its bulky wisp roost set could have some merits, however the main fairy type that it would like to wall, Primarina, shits on it with any water move. Also talonflame exists
 

Roseguardin

formerly skywardsword596
#15
I meant to talk about Volcanion in my post the other night but fell asleep. Moving it to B+ seems like a good choice. As a special wallbreaker I would rather take Primarina or Mega Blastoise, simply because Primarina provides more relevant coverage for teams with its Moonblast and its Hydro Pump is terrifying, while Mega Blastoise has great utility with Rapid Spin. Volcanion isn't totally useless as it can take on Scizor and other Steel-types, switch in on Scalds aimed at teammates and threaten bulky Waters with its Bloom Doom set (note that Primarina can also run Energy Ball to beat bulky Waters) and potentially beat Blissey with Superpower and Fightinium-Z but Rocks weakness plus the tendency of some of its targets (Scizor mainly) to pivot out of it and rack chip damage does not sound appealing. B+ is a solid placement for it
 
#16
Venomoth: C- --> B- : Agree
Venomoth is an extremely underrated pokemon at the moment. It's by far the best quiver dance user the tier has to offer right now, it gets several opportunities to set up thanks to Sleep Powder, and with the proper team support (To remove Scizor and such), it can be a massive threat to teams. The sheer power that Venomoth obtains from Tinted Lens, Savage Spin-Out, and Quiver Dance can often allow it to sweep through whole teams, sometimes even with minimal support. Venomoth, in my opinion, is leagues above other C- pokemon currently such as Darmanitan, Gardevoir, and the Rotoms, and even several C+ pokemon such as Arcanine and Cresselia thanks its combination of ability and moveset.

Latias: A+ --> S : Agree
This one has been talked about a lot, so I'd like to chime in as well. Latias is able to circumvent many of its defensive answers and even certain offensive answers (such as Scarf Krookodile) with a Calm Mind + Z-Move set. Along with the CM-Z-move set, it's still capable of providing more support-based roles with its access to Healing Wish and Defog, and it can even provide a form of speed control with a Scarf set. Unlike several other UU threats, it has the option to evade constant offensive pressure thanks to Roost, so teams often need some way to remove it or outlast it defensively. There are very few drawbacks one gets from putting Latias on a team, and it functions excellently on its own. Latias is a pokemon that is capable of greatness; perhaps enough to boost it to S.

Alolan Persian: C- --> C : Disagree
Honestly, I'm really not a fan of this mon. Parting Shot is a nice niche and all, but it is rendered entirely incapable of pivoting (without extreme consequences) versus teams with bisharp, it fails as a possible scarfer due to its inability to cause any good damage with foul play to most of the tier's other scarfers (Primarily, the fighting- and dark- type ones). As a Z-move user, it would often be better to simply run a pokemon with Healing Wish (such as Latias or even Clefable) along with a more offensively-inclined z-move user. For both of these sets, it is extremely easily worn down due to its poor special bulk and still not absolutely stellar physical bulk. For these reasons, I think it deserves to stay C-.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#17
There was some earlier discussion on the last thread regarding a potential Ninetales drop, and while that may no longer be relevant, I'd just like to go ahead and say that I heavily disagree with any notion to drop the thing. While the people posting about Ninetales seem to think that it's primary function is as a source of support for sun abusers, this is actually not the case. Torkoal probably outdoes Ninetales as a support Pokemon, but for those of you that looked at my post a few days ago on the creative/underrated sets thread, you'd know that I personally believe that Ninetales uses sun for its own benefit. Here's the set that I just recently posted:

Ninetales @ Firium Z
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Sunny Day / Hypnosis


If you'd like more information on the set, please refer to this post. While on paper it may not seem like too huge a threat, a boosted Inferno Overdrive in the sun is so powerful that it's capable of OHKOing traditional checks like Hydreigon, Latias, Arcanine, and Clefable, and even 2HKOing Blissey alongside Fire Blast. Overall, Ninetales's placement in C is justified in my opinion due to the amazing strength of this set and it's ability to KO even resisted threats with relative ease. Right now, I'd like to suggest that we keep Ninetales in C.

To finish this post, I'd like to go ahead and talk about a Pokemon that's drop was discussed and seemed inevitable, but has now seemed to have been forgotten. This Pokemon is none other than
Hippowdon. I really like Hippowdon, but think that its current placement in A really isn't justified. Sweepers like Conkeldurr, Celebi, Scizor, Cobalion, Clefable, and especially SD Gliscor are either rising in popularity or have already been common sights for a while, and are all perfectly capable of pressuring Hippowdon and absorbing its status attacks, while other common sweepers in Mega Sharpedo and Keldeo can easily force it out. It seems that currently, all of the meta's most common and consistent setup sweepers don't fear Hippowdon at all unless they're Infernape (which can still KO with Grass Knot after it's set up), and that its use as a wall is heavily compromised by that. Gliscor, Swampert, and Krookodile all give it a bit of a run for its money as a Ground-type Stealth Rock setter as well in that they have more overall utility in Gliscor's case, a better typing in Swampert's case, or the ability to provide teams with both defensive utility through Intimidate and offensive utility through its high powered Earthquake and Knock Off in Krook's case. Overall, Hippowdon just hasn't responded to the metagame's trends which especially considering it shares a rank with Gliscor, is grounds for a drop to A-. Thanks for reading!
 
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#18
So after reading what other people had to say about Latias going to S rank. I'll say that I didn't learn anything and it just seemed like plain disagreements with my post. A good amount of those people misunderstood what I said but if they had read my post correctly, they would know that I wasn't really stating any facts, just my opinions. And if they read my first post, they would then know that I'm not all that adamant for Latias to be A+ rank. I think King UU did a good job at proving my points wrong before by using my words against me. I also reviewed a lot of the replays from UUPL that had Latias in them (not all cuz that's a lot of time) and found out that Latias wasn't really putting in as much work as people were suggesting. I was right in my initial thought process on Latias when I said that it's best trait is being an offensive pivot (I straight up think defog is useless on it). Not knowing if it has recovery or what z move it's holding or what moves it has, is very good. I also find it funny how not too long ago people thought Bisharp was the best sweeper in the tier and how it could get away with other sets when I was arguing for it be A+ rank but, now that the people want Latias to be S rank now it's linear and it's not that great of a sweeper (even though I already said how linear it is in my Latias post in this thread and my Bisharp posts in the last thread). Just know this, though, I feel like this is hype now because of how people are saying Latias is above most threats (Keldeo is a split vote from what I saw) in A+ rank by a mile (which isn't true in the slightest). I could see how Latias could be better than most of A+ rank but, at the same time I would say that it's not better than those pokes by much. I feel like Latias should be A+ rank still (Mega Aero should be A+ rank too but whatever) but, people really want it to be S rank so, might as well put in S rank.
So yeah, I give up :)
By the way, I think the Metagross nomination for B- rank got lost in the last thread. I want to bring that up again because I feel like Metagross should be B- rank. It's been getting some more usage recently and for good reasons. It's a good check to a lot of top threats like Latias, Celebi, Clefable, Scizor, Primarina, and Mega Aero. Metagross also has ways around dealing with some it's checks like Krookodile. I recommend giving the original post from Hilomilo in the last thread a good read too.
 
#19
Following tmacbalanced's post, regarding the nomination of Metagross for B-:

I think Metagross deserves B-. It has a huge movepool and only has set-specific counters; it can run a mixed set to lure its Choice Band / Pursuit sets counters, it basically has enough coverage for literally everything:

  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 223-264 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 302-360 (75.3 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 216-259 (62.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 163-194 (41.3 - 49.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Quagsire: 398-470 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Metagross @ Expert Belt
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 236 Atk / 56 SpA / 216 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Pursuit / Bullet Punch / Zen Headbutt / Explosion

Just a spread I made up in a minute, enough SpA to 2HKO mixed Hippowdon, OHKO Quagsire and OHKO Offensive Scizor after Stealth Rock. Enough speed for max speed Adamant Scizor, rest was invested into attack but its EV spread can be manipulated to your needs.


Its Choice Band set looks good on paper but in practice it is walled by a healthy Hippowdon, Slowbro and Quagsire, though Trick makes this set a lot better, being able to shut down Slowbro, Quagsire and Hippowdon to an extent.

I have never used its offensive Stealth Rock set so I can't really talk about it lol.

In one sentence: I support the nomination of Metagross to B- rank because of its mixed lure set's effectiveness.
 
#20
figy snorlax is probably good enough for B- on account of the fact that it has a flexible movepool and an EV spread that is highly open to interpretation. You could run a lot of bulk, a lot of attack, or both, then combine that with the fact that its base stats are already so good, you have a tank on the same levels of slowking which has a similar role, and despite having regenrator suffers highly to pursuit, so I say they are on similar levels when you consider snorlax now has healing of his own. This is B- level for sure, if you compare to the others in there.

also see: bewear; its similarity to snorlax is uncanny and I would consider them too to be on the same level, except snorlax has recovery.
 
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Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
#21
Following tmacbalanced's post, regarding the nomination of Metagross for B-:

I think Metagross deserves B-. It has a huge movepool and only has set-specific counters; it can run a mixed set to lure its Choice Band / Pursuit sets counters, it basically has enough coverage for literally everything:

  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 223-264 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 302-360 (75.3 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 216-259 (62.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 163-194 (41.3 - 49.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 56 SpA Expert Belt Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Quagsire: 398-470 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Metagross @ Expert Belt
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 236 Atk / 56 SpA / 216 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Pursuit / Bullet Punch / Zen Headbutt / Explosion

Just a spread I made up in a minute, enough SpA to 2HKO mixed Hippowdon, OHKO Quagsire and OHKO Offensive Scizor after Stealth Rock. Enough speed for max speed Adamant Scizor, rest was invested into attack but its EV spread can be manipulated to your needs.


Its Choice Band set looks good on paper but in practice it is walled by a healthy Hippowdon, Slowbro and Quagsire, though Trick makes this set a lot better, being able to shut down Slowbro, Quagsire and Hippowdon to an extent.

I have never used its offensive Stealth Rock set so I can't really talk about it lol.

In one sentence: I support the nomination of Metagross to B- rank because of its mixed lure set's effectiveness.

I'd honestly argue that Metagross's mixed lure set isn't what defines its role in the metagame. If anything, while good, it's still one of the lesser sets just because you're giving up a lot of coverage for things you'd usually beat to lure other threats, meaning that you're a lot more susceptible to Fire-types, Poison-types, etc. I agree that Metagross should rise, but mainly due to the current strength of its Assault Vest set. AV Metagross is honestly really good in this meta. It's blessed with the ability to check physical and special attackers alike, which is really helpful when teambuilding considering not many Pokemon are capable of adequately covering both in one slot. Offensively and defensively checking huge threats like Latias, Cobalion, Primarina, Celebi, Mew, Clefable, and a lesser yet still threatening mon in Swellow is extremely valuable for offense, and the fact that Metagross can do this while providing an amazing offensive presence and denting most of the metagame with its STAB coverage alone is what for me, suggests that Assault Vest is its best set and is what should rise it up to B- (it also was put to really good use in UUPL, which is also indicative of its current effectiveness).

While we're on the topic of Steel-types, I'd like to talk about a few that either had some discussion in the last thread or at the moment, deserve some discussion.

Magneton should stay B+: There was some discussion regarding a potential Magneton drop in the last VR thread, and I'm not sure if any opinions were ever really voiced in favor of or against the nom, but I'd like to say that nothing's really gotten worse for Magneton to justify a drop. The consensus was that building with Magneton could be pretty awkward since switching in can be a hassle, and since it doesn't completely invalidate a lot of Steel-types (Bisharp speed-ties, Klefki and Empoleon can set up hazards before dying, etc.), but there are a few ways to circumvent these flaws. Magneton has really good synergy with U-turn users due to the ability to form a VoltTurn core, which eases what on paper, seems like something of a hardship in trying to switch in. U-turn users are also plentiful in the metagame, which doesn't really restrict teambuilding in putting one alongside Magneton due to having a lot of options at your disposal. Being unable to flat out OHKO most Steel-types also isn't too big a concern, as you still win 1v1 situations against most without taking much damage your self, or in Empoleon's case, weaken it into range of getting revenge killed by whatever it brings out with Roar. I also want to bring up that Terrakion's entry into the tier actually helped Magneton a lot, as it now has a valuable niche in supporting one of the tier's best sweepers really well, since Scizor, Bronzong, Klefki, and Forretress can all be the only reliable stops to Terrakion on some teams. Overall, Magneton's flaws on paper are more or less compensated for in practice, while it also is defining its place in the tier more in proving to be one of the more reliable teammates to one of the metagame's best sweepers.

Bronzong should rise to C+: Bronzong's really similar to Metagross in some ways, mainly just in that it's capable of checking a lot of Pokemon that are really important to check. It's a super consistent answer to Terrakion and Latias, which are two of the metagame's most fearsome Pokemon, while it can also reliably check popular threats in Celebi, Hippowdon, Keldeo, Clefable, Togekiss, Starmie, and many more (Nidoking is another notable one, as it continues to increase in prevalence). While Bronzong can tend to be more of a momentum sap than Metagross due to its general lack of an offensive presence, it makes up for it in being able to check a few more relevant threats (mainly things like Hippo and Mega Aero) and with the utility of moves like Stealth Rock, Toxic, Protect for scouting Choice-locked foes, and a few other moves that Metagross's Assault Vest prevents it from utilizing. Gyro Ball is also useful for tanking a hit and actually hitting things like Terrakion, Latias, and Mega Aerodactyl for really good damage. Overall, Bronzong's ability to very reliably check a huge number of threats in the tier, including two of the three Pokemon currently residing in S, as well as providing its team with a plentiful amount of other utility options is what compels me to believe that it's beyond worthy of being ranked above less consistent Pokemon in Aerodactyl, Kommo-o, and Flygon.

I'd like to go ahead and finish this post in saying that I still think that Tsareena, Crobat, Salazzle, Tornadus, and Bruxish all warrant rises, and that if you're interested in reading about those noms, you can read the post here (just worried that it may get lost due to the transition over to this thread). Quagsire also still needs to rise, since that thing is almost a necessity on a really good play style in stall, and has been looking to rise for quite some time now. Thanks for reading! Let me know what you guys think.
 
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#22
Hilomilo

What Bronzong set are you using that checks Latias, Terrakion, Celebi, Keldeo and all the other stuff you mentioned?

I'm skeptical but also intrigued in a potentially new tool for me to use (that also happens to be ridiculously Pursuit weak sadly...)

To be frank I'd be fine with bumping stuff done to match Bronzong, not the other way around, particularly as almost every team with Pursuit can remove Bronzong (Mega Aero teams being a notable exception).
 
#23
Lati to S: No brainer, this thing is the epitome of an s rank mon. Splashable, supremely threatening, checks offensive and defensive mons, easily bypasses counters, changing coverage to deal with counters doesn't detract from the set's utility.

Metagross: Another no brainer. This is the only true lati counter. Vest sets can pursuit pretty freely, rocks sets pressure it enough to get revenged at the very least. Overall, it's just underutilized which has led to a low ranking.

Magneton: Mag can probably drop. It does one thing and doesn't provide the utility you want from a steel. Doesn't check lati/shark/aero/etc. Trapping scizor is awesome but still unreliable. In other matchups it relies too heavily on prediction to justify its current rank.

Venomoth: Venomoth's UUPL results speak for themselves, this thing's really good. Deserves a rise for sure.

Quagsire: I could see Quag rising just based on its value to stall teams although I'm fairly certain it's possible to build stall that doesn't require it.

Alolan Persian: This mon's actually super annoying. It pretty much guarantees momentum which is extremely valuable in a ton of matchups. You of course have to be cautious versus Bisharp but partnering with Cobalion pretty much negates this worry since giving Bish a boost doesn't matter if Coba comes in immediately. Also Scarf STAB Foul play/Knock Off picks up KOs on a lot of mons that annoy the type of team that Persian usually fits on. I don't really care about it rising but Parting Shots a great move. It's fast as hell too.

Decidueye: Drop this mon please, it's terrible.

Gastrodon: I'd also argue this thing should be dropped. It's super passive in a meta that values every turn. Not to mention it's complete setup bait for Lati. Doesn't have the raw stats to handle a lot of the fighters reliably among other things. Decent in a fair few matchups just because of Recover but I really dislike this mon.

Snorlax: No opinion, although Terrak's drop makes me cautious about this.

Feraligatr: Most water resists are pretty soft on the physical side atm. Most of the time when gatr loads in it just has to figure out a way around Keldeo and then get a free turn which isn't hard with its good bulk. For example, water resists on a typical team might include Primarina + Latias with Cobalion/Clef to handle Sharpedo. Waterfall comes damn close to 2hkoing Prima so if they try to use it at all, then you just need a dd to win.
 
#24
Just here to confirm Quagsire is not mandatory on stall. Five replays of my non-Quag team, none of which are low quality in terms of play (actually I made this team in anticipation of Clefable leaving us):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-573254067
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-573257597
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-573652222
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-573668033
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-573681195

Basically the replays show you can cover UU threats without Quagsire
 
#25
I take back my words, Metagross should be raised because of its Assault Vest set, not the mixed. Its usefulness to teams is way more significant than the mixed set does.

Metagross should be raised because of its Assault Vest set.
 
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