CAP 2 Smogon "Create a Pokemon" Part Deux: Discussion 8

[Magmortified]

Cross Chop. Hammer Arm seems a little too inconsequential.

Ice Punch, if anything. Provides enough coverage to add variety in there. Fire Punch, maybe. Thunderpunch would be pushing it.

Oh, and to the current arguments against Fire Punch, Weezing's using Flamethrow- *Kaboom*

Blatant yes to Will o Wisp.

I don't see what's too wrong with WoW in everybody's eyes, but here's my argument:

"It being available to just about every ghost is irrelevant"

And yet, we see the arguments on Hammer Arm and SuperPower being available to only non-fighting Pokemon, and therefore, shouldn't be given. Tell me, what makes WoW so special?

"It doesn't fit thematically (possibly include how it's a vengeful mummy)"

Well, how does an explosion-prone (Koffing/Weezing) or steel Pokemon (Aggron/Bastiodon) use a move like Fire Blast, then? It doesn't have to be thematically appropriate to be there. But in a way, it also is thematically appropriate. WoW is otherworldly, and so is a walking mummy. Plus, desert mirages.

"But... Dusknoir!"

Isn't going to die from this thing getting WoW. First of all, it's still not entirely clear how this thing getting Will o' Wisp is going to make it a Dusknoir copy, there are plenty of other distinguishing factors. Second of all, why are we worrying? I'm pretty sure Nintendo wasn't forgetting Infernape or Flygon when they made D/P, and yet...

Now, if we can go for WoW on how it would work on the mummy's competitive viability, then we'll have something to talk about.

 

[Viashino_wizard]

I think one reason was that we didn't want something with this things good HP and SpDef also having access to an anti-physical status.

 

[Maroon3d]

Answering questions:

1:Close Combat - It sneaks up close to you and punch

2: It should get all, and if only one, Thunderpunch (I changed Firepunch because I just thought of the wrappings.)

3:Yes, move is Moonlight (fits better with a vengeful mummy than Morning Sun)

4:Yes

 

[Viashino_wizard]

1:Close Combat - It sneaks up close to you and puch

Weird that sounds kind of like Sucker Punch to me.

 

[Dane]

Close Combat doesn't really seem like a "sneak up and pound you" kind of attack. I think of something like Primeape just charging it's opponent and going apeshit on it.

 

[Blln]

Ok, I vote for
- Hammer Arm as primary fighting STAB

- Thunder Punch and Ice Punch, for available elemental punches

- Moonlight for recovery

- Yes to Will-o-wisp

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Close Combat - It sneaks up close to you and puch

Close Combat actually sounds more like a boxing move in which the fighter forgo protecting his/her weak spot and go in close to most likely defeat whomever he/she is fighting. The japanese word for it was インファイト which meant In-Fight I think.

 

[Maroon3d]

Close Combat actually sounds more like a boxing move in which the fighter forgo protecting his/her weak spot and go in close to most likely defeat whomever he/she is fighting. The japanese word for it was インファイト which meant In-Fight I think.

I see where your going but my point is it'll sneak close you like Shadow Sneak and attack

 

[Dane]

But Close Combat isn't really sneaking. It's just bum rushing and going apeshit on whoever the target is.

 

[Screw-On Head]

What should the main Fighting STAB move be??
-Hammer Arm
-Cross Chop
Hammer Arm is a great thematic choice, and a fine move that not enough Pokemon put to good use. Cross Chop is fine as well, but not my top choice; it's less unique than Hammer Arm. I want to emphasize that I think Close Combat is a horrible option for this guy, because it is seen way too much already, it hurts his defenses, and it is too damn powerful. Also, as a part Ghost type, I imagine he'd have trouble using a Close Combat fighting style... at least that's how I imagine it. Superpower might seem like a cool idea, and probably not too strong, but keep in mind that it is the only Fighting move that no Fighting type Pokemon actually learns. I think it is important for Superpower to remain non-Fighting Pokemon exclusive.

Which, if any, of the Elemental Punches does this get??
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch
-ThunderPunch
As a Fighting/Ghost Pokemon I see this guy as a prime candidate for the Elemental Punches. The elemental punches are "magic" punches, of sorts, and if any Pokemon were to get "magic" punches, I think a Fighting/Ghost type would be it. I know giving him the Elemental Punches creates overlap with Dusknoir, but in this case I think it is acceptable overlap because it is just so fitting.

Does this get Recovery outside of Rest??
-No
Mummies rest in their tombs. I like the idea of this guy resting to heal. With Shed Skin resting will be a powerful option, it doesn't need even more powerful instant recovery. Moonlight may seem innocent enough, but with Air Lock it's just as good as Recover with less PP. Also, I don't find Moonlight particularly fitting for this guy's flavor. Not having an instant recovery is a great way to distinguish this guy from Dusknoir.

Does this get Will-o-Wisp?
-No
For the love of Arceus and all that is holy! not every Ghost Pokemon needs to get Will-o-Wisp. Variety people, variety. Not giving it Will-o_wisp will force it to find more... inventive ways to wall physical attacks.

What it shouldn't get:
No Power Whip/Grass Knot
I see the logic behind this, "whipping" with it's wrappings. It's a cute idea, but Power Whip is a powerful Grass move, and I don't think it should be given to this guy just because it's NAME sort of matches. No Vines = No Power Whip. It makes about as much sense as giving this guy Tail Whip, when he has no tail. Giga Drain maybe, but not Power Whip, please. No Grass Knot as well. Nothing is Grassy about living in a desert.

No Hyper Voice
Unlike Power whip I can't even think of a reason why this guy would get Hyper Voice. I think, given that this guy doesn't even have a visible mouth, Hypervoice seems like a very odd choice on him. Not overpowering in the least, just makes me go "Huh?" If a move doesn't makes obvious sense, that should make it questionable right there. Given that this guy has a few too many level up moves as it is, I think Hyper Voice can be safely dropped. It adds nothing to it's gameplay, nothing to it's flavor (that I can immediately see).

No Roar
By the same logic as Hypervoice, I don't think it should get Roar. No mouth = No Roar. Roar does add some utility to the Pokemon, unlike Hypervoice, but I can actually see Whirlwind as a more thematic choice than Roar. If somebody can explain to me why something with no mouth should get Roar I might reconsider.

What it should get:
Only thing I can think of is Curse being switched to a level up move. Mummies and curses are like cake and ice cream.

Other Thoughts:
Pretty much everything under the sun that might make sense for this guy to learn has been listed. That gives me some concern as almost no Pokemon learns everything that might make sense for it. As mentioned, it's level up list is a bit too big, and it has above average size Egg Move and HM/TM lists as well. If I were to cut some moves, I would cut some (but not all) of the following (other than those moves listed above):
-Bind
-Bide
-Rock Tomb (from level up only)
-Hypnosis
-Nightmare
-Memento
-Nightshade
-Bone Rush
-Taunt
-Safeguard
-Sludge Bomb
-Skill Swap
-Embargo
-Psych Up
-Dream Eater
-Rock Climb
Note that I think all of the above moves make thematic sense, and I don't think any of the above are overpowering. Also, remember that I don't think all of the above should be cut. It is just an arbitrary list I came up with of moves I think this guy could do without. I do think that some combination of 4-7 of the above moves should be cut to slightly reduce it's move pool.

 

[Kestrel]

Level Up Moves
1. Wrap: I feel bind better fits the flavour of a vengeful mummy, and they're very very similar moves in any case.
1. Bind
1. Endure: Seems an odd fit to learn so early, and when it doesn't learn other moves that take advantage of low HP.
1. Bide
2. Sand Attack
3. Sand Tomb:Two tomb moves seems like overkill, although they function differently. I personally would go with one or the other, Rock Tomb being my pick as it interacts better with Hammer Arm (and this already has Bind for DoT), although either could do.
5. Rock Tomb
7. Imprison
10. Arm Thrust
14. Scary Face: Both Scary Face and Glare serve the same purpose, except in slightly different ways. Both lower your opponent's speed, allowing Mummy to take the initiative. However, Glare stays effective after a switch out, so I'd go for that rather than this.
18. Mean Look
21. Glare
24. Ancient Power (possible evolution method)
25. Shadow Punch
32. Revenge
36. Hyper Voice: Mummies always strike me as being silent for some reason. Makes 'em scarier. Hyper Voice tends to be given to specifically noisy pokemon.
41. Icy Wind: I'm not sure of the thought process that went behind selecting this - mummies creating a chill wind? Either way, it doesn't feel like it should chill people powerfully enough to call it an ice attack.
48. Power Whip
53. Hammer Arm/Cross Chop/Dynamic Punch/Close Combat/Super Power (aka main Fighting STAB move): I can't see anything wrong with it learning Cross Chop as a TM, but none of the others feel quite right. And with Paralysis support (from Glare or others), the speed drop shouldn't hurt all that much.
59. Hypnosis
59. Nightmare: These two don't really seem to fit on a mummy - spooky ghosts yes, but mummies feel more like physical ghoulies. Besides, does this thing really need Hypnosis with the plethora of other pokemon that could do that for it?
63. Moon Light
67. Earth Power
73. Shadow Ball
80. Aura Sphere

Is there any reason the level-up movepool is this big? Is this the proposed final movepool, or is there room for additions/deletions? This feels like it learns too many moves, and those moves too frequently (when other pokemon learn 1 move maybe ever 10 levels, sometime 2 within 10 levels). Underlined are my suggestions for removals from the level up movepool - a lot of these moves fit the theme, but there's just too many. I think 16 moves is plenty, and that some of those (Power Whip, Aura Sphere, Ancient Power) could probably be Heart Scaled.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

What it shouldn't get:
No Power Whip/Grass Knot
I see the logic behind this, "whipping" with it's wrappings. It's a cute idea, but Power Whip is a powerful Grass move, and I don't think it should be given to this guy just because it's NAME sort of matches. No Vines and/or any whip like tongues = No Power Whip. It makes about as much sense as giving this guy Tail Whip, when he has no tail. Giga Drain maybe, but not Power Whip, please. No Grass Knot as well. Nothing is Grassy about living in a desert.

Fixed since Lickilicky doesn't have any vines or whip like appendage except it's tongue and he gets it too.

Edit: There are a decent amount of plant life in deserts, and no I'm not referring to cacti either.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

No Vines = No Power Whip.

Lickilicky.

 

[Dane]

If a tongue counts, then why can't bandages? If anything, a bandage would be more vine-like than a tongue.

 

[indianunit02]

What should the main fighting move be?
Hammer Arm

What, if any, of the elemental punches does this get??
Ice Punch
Fire Punch

Does this get recovery outside of rest?
No

Does this get will-o-wisp?
Yes

IMO it should learn pain split.

 

[tgva8889]

And besides, when did not having a proper appendage ever stop a pokemon? I remember many allusions to a certain flying bird-like pokemon that can Focus Punch.

Despite it making sense, I don't think Endure is a necessary level-up move, since it's a TM and it has enough level up moves as it is. Bide also seems less than necessary. Despite it making sense, it's not like anyone would ever consider using that move ever.

I'm more wary of Will-o-Wisp because it gives this guy a way to very easily deal with physical attackers, meaning he only really has to focus on special defense. While 90 defense isn't spectacular, when you can burn any physical threat, too, that just seems a bit overboard. Besides, I don't think Will-o-Wisps have anything to do with Mummies. While I can understand people wanting it, I just don't like it that much.

 

[tennisace]

Power Whip should stay. Just because it doesn't have "vines" doesn't mean it shouldn't get it. Wooper has no arms. Wooper gets Focus Punch. Lickilicky gets Power Whip, because of it's tongue. It's not like Power Whip is going to be on every single set, it has unreliable accuracy.

 

[Hyra]

Okay, I'll drop Endure and Hyper Voice from the level up learn set. I put Hyper Voice there without thinking of the art, which pretty much prevents Hyper Voice. Endure is there only for thematical purposes, since it is a TM. Both Tombs are staying and samething with Wrap+Bind. It's just to pile on the theme. If anything, you guys should be removing the moves at the end of the spectrum like Hypnosis and Nightmare, which make sense competitively but are more iffy on the theme side. Syclant had a very strong lean to learning solely attack moves, which I tried to avoid here.

I'm also considering Screech or Leer over Scary Face. More variety in what it can do with the flavor moves is always good. Now, this might sound contradictory considering I want three trapping moves, but those are all core to the design (and learning Bind and Wrap at once is very fun, at least in game).

Also, to those complaining about "poor" coverage: Its two STAB moves are unresisted, meaning you hit all walls for neutral. You actually hit Super Effective on Blissey, Cresselia, Regice, and Celebi. This thing can never have poor coverage, ever. Stop complaining about having one of the best attacking types in the game.

Looking at the level up list, I really feel like removing Endure, Shadow Ball, Hypnosis, and Nightmare. This would make it learn its last move in the 60's (yay) and only remove its contested ability to sleep its enemies competitively.

 

[Ash Borer]

Well here's my vote

Hammer arm

No elemental punches, SAVE THE DUSKNOIRS!

No will-o-wisp

Moonlight, yes.


Mummything@leftovers
{careful}
Evs: 252 hp / 180 sdef / 76 def
- Bulk up
- Moonlight
- Hammer arm
- Rock slide / shadow punch

seems to be shaping up nicely...

 

[DougJustDoug]

This is for all the "Save Dusknoir" bleeding hearts posting in this thread.

(I was inspired by Cooper, who did a hilarious article in a thread that was moved to Trou)

 

[Ash Borer]

LOL DOUG!

this is why the mummy lacks will-o-wisp.

 

[gorm]

Can you say contradiction?

HOW CAN TOGEKISS FOCUS PUNCH!!??!?!

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

LOL @ Doug's post and does anyone know the best way to around STAB based when using Hitmonchan for shadow sneak testing.

 

[Hyra]

LOL @ Doug's post and does anyone know the best way to around STAB based when using Hitmonchan for shadow sneak testing.

Is it with or without Bulk Up? Or you could just add a Choice Band. I'm assuming you mean with a damage calculator and not in the game, where Hitmonchan doesn't get Shadow Sneak.

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

This is for all the "Save Dusknoir" bleeding hearts posting in this thread.

(I was inspired by Cooper, who did a hilarious article in a thread that was moved to Trou)

The last line in that article is hilarious.