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Smogon Premier League 2 Format

Discussion in 'Smogon Premier League' started by LonelyNess, Dec 30, 2010.

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  1. Bartman101

    Bartman101 Banned deucer.

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    Of course they are, but they are in a minority, plus, with the rules only being recently announced, and with little people to test teams against, people will not have the best teams and may feel that they have let their SPL team down for this...
  2. RBG

    RBG But I keep cruising, can't stop, won't stop grooving.
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    They are in a minority because of this attitude you guys give them. If you were more inviting and less "vgc sucks", then it wouldn't be as small a minority.
  3. uraga

    uraga Walking the streets with you in your worn-out jeans
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    uh...I'm pretty sure many badged members did speak up in the IS thread against giving VGC two slots, but the discussion died out, and that discussion was 2+ months before SPL even starts, when nobody is obsessing over the format...
  4. Heist

    Heist
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    looks cool except for two vgc 2011 spots...
  5. gene

    gene GENE
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    except that retainers are in "old money" and their prices are therefore inflated more than the stated 125%
  6. Synre

    Synre
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    Speaking of the staff forum topic, one thing we did not have any influence on are the keeper rules, which are inane at best. Limitless salary inflation is a pretty conceptually bad idea and any sort of salary scaling based on last year's salaries is ridiculous considering how hilariously unrepresentative they were of player value. 3 keepers is still too few to have any real consistancy. The penalty for keeping anyone who cost anything at all last year is fucking absurd and unfair to teams who didn't get ridiculous steals at the expense of other managers. Are the wolfpack really gonna be able to keep vil at like 30k? These rules don't work. Parity broken before season starts. Impressive.

    As for the people whining about the vgc spots: id just deal with that part, enough discussion that it isnt likely to change. And for fucks sake can we stop trying to make everything DPP OU. It is an old gen like any other now. Let it go. If you guys are so worried about not getting rostered without it, learn a new metagame to make yourself useful to teams.

    Though this team will do fine without those of you shedding rivers of vgc tears, I wager.
  7. undisputed

    undisputed
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    yeah 2 vgc slots is really going to make this tournament worse. we are pleasing a small portion of the community and a metagame that very few people care about and shorting players that play smogon's official metagame. makes sense.

    basically last year the DPP slots were the ones most people cared about or knew anything about. the old gens were full of some veterans that couldn't learn dpp (mostly) and no one really cared or paid attention to those. "only predicting dpp because those are the only ones i know/care about" was commonly seen phrase starting prediction posts. this is pretty much the same with vgc except on a larger scale. the majority of smogon doesn't really have a grip on what goes on in a vgc match, and frankly doesn't care.
  8. spies

    spies

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    That is a very terrible comparison.
  9. gene

    gene GENE
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    yeah those goddamn oldfags who cares about em anyway
  10. undisputed

    undisputed
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    I'm not saying I don't care about them. All im saying is that a majority of the community knows nothing about any of rby/gsc/adv and therefore they cannot relate or understand what makes the metagame interesting or good. without any of that, why should they care? and if we were to put 2 rby slots, im pretty sure the spl becomes farther away from the public interest, and is not very interesting. the same pretty much goes for vgc.
  11. Synre

    Synre
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    Guess the public should get a clue, then. Half our official tournaments are current gen OU. This one isn't. Really, I'm not sure why this is so hard to accept. The tournament isn't going to magically change to be more bog standard so you don't have to learn anything. There are a huge amount of roster slots for people who play metagames other than OU. If anyone really wants to play in this tournament there are plenty of opportunities to put in the work to get on a team. It's not like it was just 'oldfags' like g80 who were playing old gen slots in SPL. Won't find many names from days gone by on the Ruiners and they came in 2nd and got really excellent old gen play from people who put in the effort. Turns out it's not so hard if you actually try.

    The whining is pretty pathetic. Stop asking for an easy route to be handed to you. Not a coincidence that teams who invested a lot in DP last year didn't do very well. This is a tournament about having well rounded teams and understanding all the forms competitive pokemon comes in, not just facerolling the most recent hyperoffensive gens(and the inconsistant results that come with them).

    The teams that bother to learn all the metas are the ones who do well here. All those damn advfags on my team did pretty good last year I hear and it'll be the same this year with teams that pick up vgc. Adapt.



    Final note: it isn't a coincidence that most of those well-respected elite player types typically don't whine much about what metas are played. Get over yourselves. The standard OU official tournament is ST, perhaps you've clicked the wrong subforum. Gonna need to know more than the bare minimum here.
  12. undisputed

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    lol none of this whining is coming from a managerial perspective. obviously it doesn't affect you because you don't play. the people who are whining are the same people who are going to get ripped off of spots because of this. no one wants an 'easy route', they just want to play.

    it isnt a coincidence that most of the well respected elite players dont whine because they have playing security. in case you haven't noticed, a lot of these well respected players aren't even the best anymore and get by on name alone. extra spots in dpp ou allowed players like ENZ0, apologies, and legendary07 among others to actually participate. shockingly these new not-as-respected players were some of the best and made huge impacts on teams. these are the types of players that are going to get shorted by 2 vgc slots.

    final note: this website isnt about the vgc. its about this weird metagame we call standard ou. we are giving the same weight to a metagame that represents around 10% of the site as we are to a metagame that represents over 75% of it. perhaps ive clicked the wrong the wrong website.
  13. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Where do you get off declaring what Smogon.com's purpose is? The management of this website has expressed a large interest in catering to VGC players for a LONG time, and frankly it's stupid to shun them.
  14. Mizuno

    Mizuno

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    I think the problem is that a lot of the community is in the dark about how popular VGC 2011 actually is. Twenty VGC 2011 players seems like quiet a lot at first glance too (2 per team at the very least).
  15. Pirotechnix

    Pirotechnix

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    You're applying your logic inconsistently.

    By allowing VGC, you also give people who play a relatively unknown metagame in Smogon's at-large competitive community a chance to play and have potentially 'huge impacts' on teams, and show off something new to people who are willing to be open-minded. Your own personal perception of what constitutes a 'good/bad' metagame is irrelevant to this competition. I don't agree with two VGC 2011 spots myself, but if that's what has been decided, there's no point in complaining about it.

    Those 'unknown' players you mentioned succeeded because their managers were talented at evaluating talent and impact, like they would have to be in fielding a roster in a sports fantasy league. With one less slot for a certain metagame, you as the player have to be even better, and the manager has to be even smarter. A washed-up player who nonetheless gets picked based on previous status will not be a credit to their team. Feel free to stroke your own ego if they perform poorly and convince yourself that you/<insert person here> would have done so much better. But this is the Smogon Premier League, and if you weren't picked, it was obviously because you didn't sell yourself enough as a competent battler.
  16. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

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    point in that is to attract more users, but uhh i definitely agree the ratio of vgc to standard ouers on here isn't significant enough to have more than a single slot for VGC. it'll be interesting to see how many VGC sign ups and how many good VGC players end up on the teams though!

    and p.s. VGC is as hyper offensive a metagame as BW probably, noone even switches.
  17. undisputed

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    I don't know cim. Maybe i got confused that we call 'standard' the same thing as 'ou'. or maybe i got confused as to why we write analyses for standard ou and not vgc. or it could even be that the main tutoring tier is ou. i find it weird that the site does so many ou related things but that isn't even the main purpose of the site! /sarcasm

    im not saying were supposed to shun them. im saying 2 slots is too many. i just want equal representation for the interests of everyone on this site. 2 vgc slots would be like giving two nu or 1 v. 1 slots even though their player base is ridiculously small.
  18. Flamewheeler

    Flamewheeler

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    I'll 2nd this. And I'm hoping to get in this year! =D
  19. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
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    Well even though DPP Uber and OU are better picks as VGC from my point of view i am able to accept the taken route.

    However i think that VGC2010 should be in there instead of 1 VGC2011 Spot.
    VGC2011 is relatively new and didnt give many players any chance to present themselves whereas VGC2010 has a frequent and already experienced playerbase.

    Dont ya think?
  20. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    As mentioned, 2 VGC spots seems pretty unappealing to me, especially since there are more VGC slots than DPP OU slots (and the DPP OU playerbase is far greater than that of the VGC's -- on Smogon at least). It should also be remembered that VGC 2011 is a very new metagame and is less competative than DPP OU (or even VGC 2010) because of the lack of experience most players will have.

    Nonetheless, this was a very fun tournament last season and I'm looking forward to it.

    EDIT: Keep in mind I'm not saying VGC should be (should have been) removed entirely, but rather just use one slot instead of two, since VGC should be taking a back seat here to what we consider the 'standards' - DPP OU and BW OU (or possibly DPP Ubers).
  21. JRank

    JRank
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    So according to you it's OK for previously unknown OU battlers to have a large impact, but not VGC battlers? That makes sense. /sarcasm

    Also, what makes OU or Tubers any better than VGC? Just because more people play OU that doesn't necessarily make it better. Yes I understand catering to the larger player base, but should VGC be shunned?

    I feel like I've done a terrible job expressing my thoughts, but I had to get this off my chest.

    (Also of this is like Policy Review and I shouldn't be posting here sorry)


    EDIT: Please excuse me it seems that there is less DPP OU than VGC 11, so that part of my argument is moot. I will edit that out, sorry.

    EDIT 2: For those of you saying that we (saying that because I am a VGC'er) have not had enough tine to get teams prepared, have you even played it? The metagame has developed quite a bit, actually. And for those saying that not many people play, that's just because hardly anyone uses the Smogon server. (Skarmbliss is the predominant VGC server)
  22. Synre

    Synre
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    OK two major issues to reply to here:

    One: you are presenting this issue as though it is inherently negative that fewer players who only play standard OU are able to play. This is flawed because it's reflecting your bias; there are similarly many players who probably wouldn't be on standard OU rosters who are able to get on SPL rosters because they made an effort to learn the other metagames and be valuable to a team. I would wager people like pirotechnix and SK would have a harder time getting on a roster in an event like WC, but in SPL they were able to be very important players for a very successful team, and it's worth noting neither of them are quite the same type of community old timers as someone like g80. I use the word team a lot - this is a team event, by the way - I wonder how often that gets lost when people see the rules. I could slot Atticus in at ADV or husk in at VGC if I had to because they learned other metagames for fun and to help our team practice last year, and that's part of what makes them good players. Good players are similarly good players no matter what metagame you put them in, I find, and while there's a difference between good and great it's hard to replace strong understanding of Pokemon. It's really tough to do well in this event if you don't have players helping each other practice with how rampant scouting is, and I know at least when I look at players as a manager, it's a big deal to me if players are going to help out in other metagames. You're making it very clear that you would not - I would rather take someone who is a worse player in DP or BW or whatever but more of a team player because of it. This is not a tournament where it works well for it to be all about you, as you're making it. Again, ST is for that.

    You may also recall I was the one who drafted the aforementioned apologies, and I'd probably do it again in the same situation even with one fewer OU slot because he was supposed to be a substitute to begin with. If players are good enough to make a difference they'll end up on rosters because of their skills and potential, not because they aren't big names or because there aren't enough metagame slots. He proved he was good enough to be our best option in OU those weeks so he played and did very well. He was also a great team guy, by the way, which everyone on the team noticed. If you don't get drafted it's because you're not good enough or aren't trying hard enough to make yourself useful enough to a team. Focus on what you can control. I'd say you've pretty obviously ruled out one of the ten teams from drafting you, and I'd certainly suggest friends owning other teams avoid you based on your attitude. I would wager people like apologies and ENZ0 will have little trouble ending up on teams. Especially if there's an anime battle segment(I'm kidding ENZ0 please don't yell at me).

    I would also wager I wouldn't have any issues getting on a team as a player under either ruleset so I'm not sure what you're getting at with the manager comment...


    The second point, though: you pretty clearly have no idea what this website is about. I hate to be super condescending here, but I'd say you led off by trying to tell me what this website is about, so let me tell you a bit about smogon, since you're new and seem to be confused. I think you have clicked the wrong website, so try not to let the door hit you in the ass. We have, in fact, always focused on standard OU here. That was ADV once - now an "old gen" that people would love to phase out of this tournament in order to open up more slots for metagames they're comfortable with. It was DP once - a metagame people now can't seem to let go of the same way they love to try to dismiss DP. It's BW now - and slots had to be made for it. You may recall(or you may not, judging by your join date) that when ADV was the standard metagame here we still ran GSC and RBY tours and basically every player on the site played all three of the original generations. That started phasing out in gen 4 because shoddy lacked the first 3 generations, but really, I'm not sure why it's so accepted now to only be competent at the most recent generation because this site has never accepted that. We are, simply and completely, a competitive Pokemon website, and that encompasses a lot more than just the current generation's standard OU. Of all official tournaments, this one most encompasses all that we are.

    Another thing you should know from being a staff member here is that we're working on improving our VGC involvement at smogon - and initiative coming from chaos right on down. You apparently missed the memo that we've had embarrassingly poor coverage of VGC since the PR disaster that was JAA in 2006 and are working to repair that, because while most of Smogon plays OU singles, most of the playerbase of Pokemon play's TPCI's game, and as a competitive Pokemon site it's our job to try to appeal to as many competitive players as we can. We run and play a niche metagame here with OU, and we should continue doing so to the best of our ability. But there's more to Pokemon than the games we manage, and this is a bone to what is a much larger worldwide VGC community than most people here want to realize.

    Pity that's not in the works....

    Wait

    And if you think you're fooling anyone you're delusional. You want a format that maximizes the chances of you getting a spot. You aren't convincing anyone you're a martyr.
  23. Heist

    Heist
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    synre, undisputed signed up to manage.
  24. Synre

    Synre
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    And he won't get it.
  25. undisputed

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    lol yeah i dont even want to play in this... maybe check your facts before trying to insult someone? that's usually a foolproof strategy

    you basically just summed up my point that vgc is in the works. therefore why on earth would a website with such a large established ou player base be stopped from competing for a ridiculously small amount of vgc players?

    believe it or not, the same people you say you would draft are saying the exact same things on IRC. i'm just bold enough to go against you and your mighty "i rule everything and have been around longer than you" attitude. stop being such a jerk.

    edit: im going to stop arguing with you all. ive said what everyone else thinks, and if some users can't see it, i can't help them see it now.
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