Smogon Premier League 2 Format

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#51
You're the one who tried to tell us what smogon is. You started with that attitude. I fired it back at you and you didn't like it. If you sling shit expect to get it back.

There are lots of tournaments here that focus on standard OU. I'm really not sure why a fairly large amount of people feel entitled for every tournament here to be exclusively/primarily standard OU. As is pretty much my thesis, get over yourselves. There are a variety of metagames supported here. People who play old gens and VGC get very disproportionate support on Smogon. This is the only official tournament either gets touched at all at the moment.

Speaking of disproportionate, I'm not sure why it's so hard to grasp that it was never intended for the metagames in this tournament to somehow be reflective of the playerbase of SMogon. That argument doesn't make any more sense here than people arguing that DPP OU isn't 100% of ST's potential playerbase would there. It isn't intended to be reflective. RBY/GSC/ADV similarly do not have 10% of the total playerbase. None of the metagames represented here are intended to be split up based on how many people play them right now. The tournament has the rules that the tournament has.
 
#52
You're the one who tried to tell us what smogon is. You started with that attitude. I fired it back at you and you didn't like it. If you sling shit expect to get it back.

There are lots of tournaments here that focus on standard OU. I'm really not sure why a fairly large amount of people feel entitled for every tournament here to be exclusively/primarily standard OU. As is pretty much my thesis, get over yourselves. There are a variety of metagames supported here. People who play old gens and VGC get very disproportionate support here. This is the only official tournament either gets touched at all at the moment.
No, I tried to tell you that most of Smogon is dedicated to OU. Almost every forum on this website (save cong, firebot, etc) has OU as the first and main reason they are there. While you're at it, feel free to sling your shit at a lot of other users who have misunderstood the emphasis placed on OU skills here.

If you want SPL to be solely about different Generations, maybe you should've said that to start out with.

edit: lol gotta love when posts are taken out of context.
 

Kinneas

VGC India & SPL Veteran of the Cryoniggles
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#53
If you want SPL to be about different Generations, maybe you should've said that to start out with.
It's pretty obvious it's about different generations and metagames. That's the entire reason they've been included... it even says in the introduction thread:

Over the course of the tournament, teams face each other in head to head matches with 8 players per side who 'play' in the matches. This tournament encompasses A number of 'generations' of pokemon and each pairing has the following matches:
 

Athenodoros

Official Smogon Know-It-All
#54
there are similarly many players who probably wouldn't be on standard OU rosters who are able to get on SPL rosters because they made an effort to learn the other metagames and be valuable to a team.
I just want to point out after reading through this topic that two weeks is not enough time to learn a metagame, especially when no-one now plays them. I would love to learn to play a few extra metagames which are in the SPL, but it would have to be done purely through theorymon because there are no players in these tiers, and I'm sure you'd agree that that is impossible.

Also, adding a voice to the crowd of people thinking 2 VGC slots is too many, but I realise that at this stage it wont be worth much.
 

drcossack

I'm everywhere, you ain't never there
#55
I think the problem is that a lot of the community is in the dark about how popular VGC 2011 actually is. Twenty VGC 2011 players seems like quiet a lot at first glance too (2 per team at the very least).
I can very easily name 20 VGC players, but yeah. In fact, I even suggested that VGC '11 gets two slots on IRC some time ago (if we got the rules before SPL2 started, which we did.)

point in that is to attract more users, but uhh i definitely agree the ratio of vgc to standard ouers on here isn't significant enough to have more than a single slot for VGC. it'll be interesting to see how many VGC sign ups and how many good VGC players end up on the teams though!

and p.s. VGC is as hyper offensive a metagame as BW probably, noone even switches.
Nobody switches because of the double targeting aspect, among other things - VGC games are also a lot shorter than BW OU/Ubers.

Well even though DPP Uber and OU are better picks as VGC from my point of view i am able to accept the taken route.

However i think that VGC2010 should be in there instead of 1 VGC2011 Spot.
VGC2011 is relatively new and didnt give many players any chance to present themselves whereas VGC2010 has a frequent and already experienced playerbase.

Dont ya think?
For VGC 2010 - I don't really see a point to adding it. It's a "dead" metagame, for one. Second, everyone who played '10 pretty much already knows the teams everyone used. There is really nothing to learn about it.

As JRank said, it's (VGC 2011) already developed, though some of the VGC regulars have put more time into it than others. Do you think the VGC people wouldn't have pounced on the opportunity to start team testing when we got the rules? We did.

At any rate, I am looking forward to playing in this.
 
#56
I actually like the format this year. Although I don't play vgc much myself, I am excited to see that we are starting to include it in our more prominent tournaments. I'm looking foward to hopefully participating in the premiere league this year, and enjoy that we still support older gens.
 

Engineer Pikachu

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#57
Also, adding a voice to the crowd of people thinking 2 VGC slots is too many, but I realise that at this stage it wont be worth much.
Yup, pretty much this. It's definitely true that VGC should have a slot in there, but is it as important as BW OU? Because that's what it's reflecting in the "League Stages". I realize and acknowledge that it's impossible to accurately reflect matches played with only ten metagame slots, but 2 VGC slots is one too much. If the Smogon Premier League isn't just about OU play, but more about other metagames (variety), then put in DPPt Ubers over a VGC slot. Heck, you can replace one of the VGC 2011 slots with BW LC or DPPt LC instead, if you really want variety.
 

makiri

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#58
I just want to point out after reading through this topic that two weeks is not enough time to learn a metagame, especially when no-one now plays them. I would love to learn to play a few extra metagames which are in the SPL, but it would have to be done purely through theorymon because there are no players in these tiers, and I'm sure you'd agree that that is impossible.

Also, adding a voice to the crowd of people thinking 2 VGC slots is too many, but I realise that at this stage it wont be worth much.
2 weeks is plenty of time to learn a new metagame. Back when the tour ran ADV/GSC/RBY I had a similar stance, "why do I need to learn these other metagames to play?" But I sucked it up and did. I basically learned GSC overnight and as you can see here I did quite well for myself in what is considered the hardest metagame to learn. If players put forth the effort they can certainly succeed and do well. In fact during last season's SPL, husk was forced to play RBY which he had not done for nearly 3 years. He put forth the effort in relearning a metagame and won both of his playoff matches helping secure victory for the Scooters.
 
#59
As an old generation player who is glad his favorite metagames get in SPL (which by now is not even 5% of Smogon probably, just look at Ruins of Alph), I support the 2 VGC spots since I think it will attract a new crowd!!

edit: also 2 weeks is enough to learn a metagame if you're dedicated.
 
#60
I just feel like saying that 2 weeks is too much time to learn another metagame.

yep I just felt like posting in here. And, uhmm GO DPP OU!

EDIT: I forgot to say VGC is fun; from what I experienced in tourney, its simple, just beat the shit out of each other (not sarcasm). Edit: nevermind this is probably sarcastic from a good vgc player's point of view. EDIT: I third'd what alan said (again not sarcasm). Edit: I thought my strategic, simple post to appeal to everyone would calm shit down, but nope.
 

Firestorm

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#63
final note: this website isnt about the vgc. its about this weird metagame we call standard ou. we are giving the same weight to a metagame that represents around 10% of the site as we are to a metagame that represents over 75% of it. perhaps ive clicked the wrong the wrong website.
Pretty much everything you've said so far is ridiculous and I thought Synre told you exactly why but you're still bitching (just as you have for months) so I just wanted to highlight that this is entirely incorrect. We are a competitive Pokemon website. We are not the "Singles OU" website.

I'm not sure why you signed up to be a manager when you've done nothing but prove you wouldn't be able to recognize talent in any but one metagame. There's a reason the Indie Scooters won last year and it's because the management staff and playerbase exemplified what SPL is about. You clearly aren't doing so. We have many tournaments, but SPL clearly isn't for you.

Yup, pretty much this. It's definitely true that VGC should have a slot in there, but is it as important as BW OU?
Actually, I believe that's exactly why VGC 2011 and BW OU have been given the same amount of slots! They're as important as each other.

Well even though DPP Uber and OU are better picks as VGC from my point of view i am able to accept the taken route.

However i think that VGC2010 should be in there instead of 1 VGC2011 Spot.
VGC2011 is relatively new and didnt give many players any chance to present themselves whereas VGC2010 has a frequent and already experienced playerbase.

Dont ya think?
Much like DPP OU, VGC 2010 is an "old" metagame now and it's hard to include all the old VGCs with new rules every year. That said, I think something's in the works to test VGC skill on Smogon after the World Championships so I'm looking forward to that :) It should then be an annual thing.
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
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#64
Please understand that having 2 VGC 2011 slots is positive. This site usually doesn't focus on doubles(I think coolking49's tourney is the first ever doubles one), so its fair that VGC get a slot. We need to get out of the idea of THE metagame. Singles isn't the only metagame that exists, doubles exists as well.

Doubles has been under represented for so long, I really think that having 2 slots this time will put it on the radar.
 

Bluewind

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#65
Just throwing something out there, which I bet will be like using Anger Powder (see, I did a VGC 2011 joke right here); why not BW LC over one of the VGC slots? I'm not a LC lover, far from that, and i'm rather unbiased in this matter as I have played none of those tiers, but it seems most VGC arguments apply to many other tiers as well; and as Little Cup has been getting analyses, its own subforum, etc etc, then I don't see why not. If there's some Evolution Stone ban problem, then excuse my ignorance, and I know many people hate LC, but many others hate VGC as well and this hasn't been a reason to keep it out of SPL so far. Again, I do not expect the format to change by now, nor is this the purpose of this post; I just wanted to shed some light on a matter no one seems to... care.
 
#66
I think Little Cup is more balanced than VGC 2011 (hi am), but the justification I've received is that Little Cup does not have enough of a playerbase to warrant its inclusion, and while the same may be true for VGC, it is a "standard metagame" and should be weighted as equally as OU is.
 
#67
To be fair, apparently 2 weeks is plenty of time to learn a metagame, so I don't see how Little Cup wouldn't have a big enough playerbase.

That being said I don't really care about the inclusion/exclusion of Little Cup, nor how many slots VGC has.
 

evan

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#68
VGC is the official metagame of the worldwide Pokemon community which is why it receives equal representation with Smogon's OU metagame.

edit: I guess that is probably more than a little disingenuous considering the worldwide nature of Smogon's userbase. More accurately, VGC is the only metagame officially supported by Nintendo via The Pokemon Company International whose tournaments represent the only large scale competitive mons playing in person. If you don't think that is worthy of equal representation with our metagame, then that is your opinion, but the tournament hosts and the administration have largely made it clear that they disagree. (Also I would support the inclusion of BW LC over another metagame but, and pay attention because this is important, this is not a thread for arguing about the format.)
 
#69
I don't really care about the format since I'm not participating but it does annoy me how some VGCers pretend VGC is just as important as standard OU. Are you really going to tell me that, for a Smogon tournament, the metagame 90+% of Smogon plays deserves as much attention as a metagame that <5% of Smogon plays? Two slots just seems a little overboard, especially when there's other standard metagames being ignored like DPP Ubers and LC.
 

Firestorm

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#70
I don't really care about the format since I'm not participating but it does annoy me how some VGCers pretend VGC is just as important as standard OU. Are you really going to tell me that, for a Smogon tournament, the metagame 90+% of Smogon plays deserves as much attention as a metagame that <5% of Smogon plays? Two slots just seems a little overboard, especially when there's other standard metagames being ignored like DPP Ubers and LC.
We can keep catering to our exclusive club or we can recognize that we've been ignoring the fastest growing metagame for the past 3 years and try to fix that. Fortunately, Smogon administration has decided to do the latter.
 

zfs

Everything old is new again
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#72
uh...I'm pretty sure many badged members did speak up in the IS thread against giving VGC two slots, but the discussion died out, and that discussion was 2+ months before SPL even starts, when nobody is obsessing over the format...
Yeah, not sure why LN and others are acting like there was some consensus among badges members. A lot of people in IS voiced serious objection to having two VGC 2011 slots.
 

zfs

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#73
VGC is the official metagame of the worldwide Pokemon community which is why it receives equal representation with Smogon's OU metagame.

edit: I guess that is probably more than a little disingenuous considering the worldwide nature of Smogon's userbase. More accurately, VGC is the only metagame officially supported by Nintendo via The Pokemon Company International whose tournaments represent the only large scale competitive mons playing in person. If you don't think that is worthy of equal representation with our metagame, then that is your opinion, but the tournament hosts and the administration have largely made it clear that they disagree. (Also I would support the inclusion of BW LC over another metagame but, and pay attention because this is important, this is not a thread for arguing about the format.)
Well, as soon as Nintendo subcontracts out their tournaments to us, we can have 12 VGC 2011 slots.

Also, to be consistent in my logic, I'd also understand if people wanted to knock out GSC and RBY OU. Yes, I remember very well that back in the day, just about all of us knew how to play all three OU gens, but times have clearly changed, and for people with join dates of 2009 and 2010, playing RBY and GSC must seem like being handed an Atari 2600 controller at a Halo tournament.
 
#74
All this controversy certainly is interesting, and I'm just here to give my two cents and give you my ideas. Firstly, I'm going to state the obvious- the format this season is NOT indicative of playerbase, and that is a fact. Not this many people play VGC, but there are other examples. I see no DPP NU, no LC whatsoever, and no Dream Worlds anything. The tricky part is that we only have 10 slots, and we simply cannot cater to everybody equally and fairly based solely on playerbase. We would need about 30 slots to get the real picture down, and that is simply unpractical. Thus, the Smogon staff had to make some tricky decisions- which metagames shall they promote? They had to make a decision about which metagames they felt deserved the most attention in this tournament, and I think they made some good decisions. VGC is, quite simply, a very underappreciated and practical metagame. Is it unbalanced, and does it have a low playerbase, and it is somewhat cliquish an hard to pick up? Yeah, I'd say so. But it's also a metagame that, practically, is probably a good one to learn. It's the only metagame we don't get to control, and is one nationally recognized as "the way to play Pokemon this year". I definitely plan on attending VGC this year, and I need to pick up this metagame, if only so I can say that I'm good at the global way of playing Pokemon. In other words, if you want to learn about any tier at all, VGC is the most "practical" and "worthwile" choice, to show that we're good at metagames WE don't make up.

I guess, overall, I disapprove of the extra VGC slot, one that could have been occupied by BW LC, or DPP LC, or DPP Ubers or some other metagame that probably needs some representation. But I think it's also a good way- this will probably make me pick up VGC, something I would have otherwise not done so earnestly and something that will pay off, if I may make the distinction, IRL as opposed to here on Smogon. Out of all the metagames to, for lack of a better word, unfairly endorse, VGC is probably the most pragmatic choice.
 

Engineer Pikachu

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#75
Firestorm said:
Actually, I believe that's exactly why VGC 2011 and BW OU have been given the same amount of slots! They're as important as each other.
evan said:
VGC is the official metagame of the worldwide Pokemon community which is why it receives equal representation with Smogon's OU metagame.
Does the general public think they're as important as each other? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you; I'm just asking, since nobody has really elaborated on what the SPL is for. Is it for variety, is it for demonstrating knowledge of different metagames, or is it for something else?
Smurf. said:
DPP OU deserves two slots. just my 2 cents.
Why does it? Sure, it was the "Standard metagame" last generation, but it's not anymore this gen. DPP OU is essentially what ADV OU was to us in Gen IV. Wasn't much, was it?
Eo Ut Mortus said:
I think Little Cup is more balanced than VGC 2011 (hi am), but the justification I've received is that Little Cup does not have enough of a playerbase to warrant its inclusion, and while the same may be true for VGC, it is a "standard metagame" and should be weighted as equally as OU is.
I agree with this. But then again, I'm probably biased.
Smith said:
But it's also a metagame that, practically, is probably a good one to learn. It's the only metagame we don't get to control, and is one nationally recognized as "the way to play Pokemon this year". I definitely plan on attending VGC this year, and I need to pick up this metagame, if only so I can say that I'm good at the global way of playing Pokemon. In other words, if you want to learn about any tier at all, VGC is the most "practical" and "worthwile" choice, to show that we're good at metagames WE don't make up.
I guess, overall, I disapprove of the extra VGC slot, one that could have been occupied by BW LC, or DPP LC, or DPP Ubers or some other metagame that probably needs some representation. But I think it's also a good way- this will probably make me pick up VGC, something I would have otherwise not done so earnestly and something that will pay off, if I may make the distinction, IRL as opposed to here on Smogon. Out of all the metagames to, for lack of a better word, unfairly endorse, VGC is probably the most pragmatic choice.
While it may be the most practical choice to "unfairly endorse" because it is "the way to play" Pokemon, the other metagames played are certainly not something we "make up". Sure, we decide the banlist, but it is through the voting of many people. It's fairly obvious that it's not arbitrary. I'd like to say that I disagree that the VGC rules are "the way to play Pokemon". If that were to be true, then the majority of battles would be Double battles. Yet, in our fourth generation simulator(s), there was not an option for Doubles, only Singles. That's saying something. What if there was no Singles ladder on PO? It wouldn't be likely that it was "the way to play Pokemon" if there was no ladder for it. I realize that you're trying to apply this to real life, but the VGC rules do not, in any way, control what people play (it may mildly influence, though).

I'd also like to reiterate what I said before: if this is for variety, replace all redundant slots with something new.

EDIT:
evan said:
Also I would support the inclusion of BW LC over another metagame but, and pay attention because this is important, this is not a thread for arguing about the format.
oops didn't see this before I posted. Another question, then: If the format was posted and we're not supposed to talk about it, then what is this thread for besides just us reading it?
 
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