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Finals Smogon Premier League VIII - Finals [NO WINNER]
- Thread starter Mazinger
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lol it was a fantastic game, i don't even like adv usually and i don't say that because they are my friends but that game was incredible, a hard fought, intense battle, that one will still be remembered in a few years for sure. who cares if they agreed on specific rules as long as they enjoyed their battle, and except a few "adv purists" in the audience, i'm pretty sure that the public enjoyed it as well
merci les mecs
merci les mecs
Ojama
Banned deucer.
i won vs mcmeghan in a very tight game, gg
to those who literally called us out for agreeing to no spikes: do you guys realize that you look like shit to us from were we are standing? do you really believe roro and i still play this game to fill the days of worthless piece of trash like you? you really are out of your minds to believe we give a fuck about you.
we agreed to no spikes because we, and several other advers, are tired of playing this tier 100% centralized around spikes. this is our choice, whether you like it or not doesn't make any difference to us. we are in finals, you arent.
if watching triangles go negative like almost every other season and play forretress + skarmory + dugtrio gives you a boner, feel free to watch the replay of our week 1 game. i assure you this one was hella interesting and passionating.
looking forward to watching people spam spikes + gar + ttar next season.
go scoots
to those who literally called us out for agreeing to no spikes: do you guys realize that you look like shit to us from were we are standing? do you really believe roro and i still play this game to fill the days of worthless piece of trash like you? you really are out of your minds to believe we give a fuck about you.
we agreed to no spikes because we, and several other advers, are tired of playing this tier 100% centralized around spikes. this is our choice, whether you like it or not doesn't make any difference to us. we are in finals, you arent.
if watching triangles go negative like almost every other season and play forretress + skarmory + dugtrio gives you a boner, feel free to watch the replay of our week 1 game. i assure you this one was hella interesting and passionating.
looking forward to watching people spam spikes + gar + ttar next season.
go scoots
Alright fine, I'd like to say sorry to both participants for anything insulting or in bad faith said in the heat of the moment, but I'd also like to comment on the reason why I so strongly disapproved of that game conceptually. I'll use an analogy to put my point forward. Picture the Superbowl. Both coaches get together before the game. One says 'Man, passing plays are overcentralising'. The other says 'Yeah that resonates man, how about we make a gentleman's agreement to only run the football all game'.
There's some obvious issues here.
a) The players' choice not to use Spikes was a completely informal agreement with no binding to it other than respect and 'keeping your word'. In theory, if one of the two players wasn't like-minded, the could perfectly legitimately go back on their word, bring a Skarm and be doing no wrong whatsoever in the eyes of the rules.
b) Just as football with only runs would be obviously boring and stagnant, the change made actively worsens the quality of the game as opposed to improving it. Spikes are an essential part of RSE, and while they are undeniably very powerful and heavily used, they also serve as a mechanism to keep even more potentially OP strategies down. We saw that in McM's team in particular, which would never work in standard RSE play, but abused mons that were much harder to keep in check without Spikes and the mons which Spike. I could go a lot more in-depth about how Spikes help balance ADV and actually have healthy counterplay, but I want to keep this concise.
c) This game was THE most important RSE game of the year, and potentially the deciding game in Smogon's flagship team tournament. If you're gonna make a gentleman's agreement, why make it now of all times? Something like this would be more suited to a dead rubber regular season game. At the end of the day, it's your choice but I disagreed with it.
I don't intend any ad hominem with this post whatsoever and I respect both battlers greatly, but I genuinely really disliked this game as a concept. I know it's not what you want to hear, but I hope you'll give some consideration to my reasoning.
There's some obvious issues here.
a) The players' choice not to use Spikes was a completely informal agreement with no binding to it other than respect and 'keeping your word'. In theory, if one of the two players wasn't like-minded, the could perfectly legitimately go back on their word, bring a Skarm and be doing no wrong whatsoever in the eyes of the rules.
b) Just as football with only runs would be obviously boring and stagnant, the change made actively worsens the quality of the game as opposed to improving it. Spikes are an essential part of RSE, and while they are undeniably very powerful and heavily used, they also serve as a mechanism to keep even more potentially OP strategies down. We saw that in McM's team in particular, which would never work in standard RSE play, but abused mons that were much harder to keep in check without Spikes and the mons which Spike. I could go a lot more in-depth about how Spikes help balance ADV and actually have healthy counterplay, but I want to keep this concise.
c) This game was THE most important RSE game of the year, and potentially the deciding game in Smogon's flagship team tournament. If you're gonna make a gentleman's agreement, why make it now of all times? Something like this would be more suited to a dead rubber regular season game. At the end of the day, it's your choice but I disagreed with it.
I don't intend any ad hominem with this post whatsoever and I respect both battlers greatly, but I genuinely really disliked this game as a concept. I know it's not what you want to hear, but I hope you'll give some consideration to my reasoning.
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how fucking dare people want to use the best strategies in the tier in a game they're playing to win
you may have achieved almost everything there is to achieve in pokemon but that doesn't give you the right to shit on people who are not at your level and thus are not capable of using different strategies to success. this would be like if earthworm in his dpp prime sneered down at other players from his high horse, about how if he could effectively use pursuit toxicroak against gouki in frontier why couldn't everyone else be more original?
why does it fucking matter what other people use? like with you and mcm in finals, they do not care about others' approval, they want to win. one way to win is to use the best team for the job; if the best team is some good ol skarm bliss gar pert ttar, then fucking use that team. crying about teams being too standard is literally what wifi idiots got shunned for Back In The Day. plus there are several absolutely incredible games with the most standard teams out there, for example this important wcop game has 2 of the most standard teams possible (and both are stall, at that, since that's something people complain about nowadays) and it is still one of my favorite battles ever because of the actual playing.
while there is still a ton of room for innovation in advance, deriding people for not being able to come up with strategies you consider original (because what is "original" can vary from player to player, for example I think a standard team with movesets tweaked that possibly ends up functioning like an entirely different team is perfectly fine but you just look at the 6 pokemon and go "lol so boring why isn't anyone as original as The Kingpin") in a tier that is well over a fucking decade old--regularly, I might add--is absolutely absurd.
and triangles' records may be poor but he has beaten both of the players from this matchup in spl so maybe taking shots at him isn't the best idea. I'm pretty sure that while he busted out stall a grand total of once that I can recall (if it's been more than that then you can still count it on one hand over four seasons), in every other game I can remember his teams are creative almost (sometimes very much) to a fault. again, not that "interesting" teams matter one fucking bit. that's what our friends in the heatah fajita crew are for.
lastly, while I'm the first person to agree that the smogtours lobby is absolutely unbearable, saying shit like
if this was a troll and you want to giggle with the rest of the army the scooters recruited for their discord about how you got the perpetually angry bkc riled up then great work but jesus christ writing this was the only way I could prevent myself from throwing up.
oh and if you wanted to play without the thing adv is really centralized around then you'd play without tyranitar. advance is gsc 2.0 with spikes and no sand.
you may have achieved almost everything there is to achieve in pokemon but that doesn't give you the right to shit on people who are not at your level and thus are not capable of using different strategies to success. this would be like if earthworm in his dpp prime sneered down at other players from his high horse, about how if he could effectively use pursuit toxicroak against gouki in frontier why couldn't everyone else be more original?
why does it fucking matter what other people use? like with you and mcm in finals, they do not care about others' approval, they want to win. one way to win is to use the best team for the job; if the best team is some good ol skarm bliss gar pert ttar, then fucking use that team. crying about teams being too standard is literally what wifi idiots got shunned for Back In The Day. plus there are several absolutely incredible games with the most standard teams out there, for example this important wcop game has 2 of the most standard teams possible (and both are stall, at that, since that's something people complain about nowadays) and it is still one of my favorite battles ever because of the actual playing.
while there is still a ton of room for innovation in advance, deriding people for not being able to come up with strategies you consider original (because what is "original" can vary from player to player, for example I think a standard team with movesets tweaked that possibly ends up functioning like an entirely different team is perfectly fine but you just look at the 6 pokemon and go "lol so boring why isn't anyone as original as The Kingpin") in a tier that is well over a fucking decade old--regularly, I might add--is absolutely absurd.
and triangles' records may be poor but he has beaten both of the players from this matchup in spl so maybe taking shots at him isn't the best idea. I'm pretty sure that while he busted out stall a grand total of once that I can recall (if it's been more than that then you can still count it on one hand over four seasons), in every other game I can remember his teams are creative almost (sometimes very much) to a fault. again, not that "interesting" teams matter one fucking bit. that's what our friends in the heatah fajita crew are for.
lastly, while I'm the first person to agree that the smogtours lobby is absolutely unbearable, saying shit like
makes you just as bad, just in a different way. responding to "you guys are making a mockery of advance by playing without spikes this is fucking dumb" with "youre worthless pieces of trash who watch our games to get some excitement in your lives" is... well, it's something sweepage would say. if you find this to be a good thing then you're probably beyond help.
if this was a troll and you want to giggle with the rest of the army the scooters recruited for their discord about how you got the perpetually angry bkc riled up then great work but jesus christ writing this was the only way I could prevent myself from throwing up.
oh and if you wanted to play without the thing adv is really centralized around then you'd play without tyranitar. advance is gsc 2.0 with spikes and no sand.
nevermind that this is a team tournament and ojama talking shit like he went 12-0 and is god's gift to smogon and gets to uniliterally make the rules
if that's the case I want aegislash unbanned and shit yo
I mean hey why didn't you guys just agree to play a completely different metagame if Gen 3 OU is so boring? Why not UU? Hell, maybe SM Ubers, or top lane Riven mirrors, or just cut the bullshit and bust out the rulers.
if that's the case I want aegislash unbanned and shit yo
I mean hey why didn't you guys just agree to play a completely different metagame if Gen 3 OU is so boring? Why not UU? Hell, maybe SM Ubers, or top lane Riven mirrors, or just cut the bullshit and bust out the rulers.
Ojama
Banned deucer.
you're acting like mcm and i started this shit kev when we got literally insulted by triangles and some other retards for our team choices and decision to play without spikes. and now we are the bad guys for shitting on other people for their lack of originality? you gotta be kidding me right lol
you have all the rights to disagree with me when i say that i find rather sad that people keep using the same standard teams over and over even in official tournaments playoffs, but your opinion isn't necessary the truth you know kev? you pointed out the fact that despite my accomplishments on smogon, i cant use them as an argument to shit on people.... aren't you that guy who literally tells people to shut the fuck up or calls them retards whenever they dare to disagree with you about anything? you really are such a hypocrite man lol
did you even read triangles' post before posting? he literally called us mouthbreathing retards and said our plays were absolutely awful just because he was mad we decided to play without spikes. so he has the right to call us out and shit but we can't answer him back? i see ok
are you really lecturing me for the way i called them out, you of all people? this must be a joke. do you even realize the way you insult people in smogtours lobby after someone dared to haxx you, king bkc? man i know this is your bday so im just gonna assume you're just drunk
happy birthday <3 xoxo
for the record mr.e, not like your existence means anything to me, i mean you're 53 yo and still complaining about RNG, but mcmeghan is the one who asked me to play without spikes not the other way around.
you have all the rights to disagree with me when i say that i find rather sad that people keep using the same standard teams over and over even in official tournaments playoffs, but your opinion isn't necessary the truth you know kev? you pointed out the fact that despite my accomplishments on smogon, i cant use them as an argument to shit on people.... aren't you that guy who literally tells people to shut the fuck up or calls them retards whenever they dare to disagree with you about anything? you really are such a hypocrite man lol
did you even read triangles' post before posting? he literally called us mouthbreathing retards and said our plays were absolutely awful just because he was mad we decided to play without spikes. so he has the right to call us out and shit but we can't answer him back? i see ok
are you really lecturing me for the way i called them out, you of all people? this must be a joke. do you even realize the way you insult people in smogtours lobby after someone dared to haxx you, king bkc? man i know this is your bday so im just gonna assume you're just drunk
happy birthday <3 xoxo
for the record mr.e, not like your existence means anything to me, i mean you're 53 yo and still complaining about RNG, but mcmeghan is the one who asked me to play without spikes not the other way around.
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yes I am 53 years old it's true
But seriously, nobody complains about chess being stale or Nintendo not putting out regular balance patches for Melee. There's room for minor innovations and sheer surprise factor works in the favor of non-standard stuff, but come on man the Gen 3 metagame is pretty old and largely "solved" at this point. A lot of the fun is in finding those little niche tweaks that work, or just in the general turn-to-turn maneuvering and mind games in the moment even if the matchup is bog standard shit vs bog standard shit. Colluding with the opponent to not really play the game as intended in a fucking finals tiebreaker is just plain disrespectful to everyone else involved with this tournament. You (Ojama) and McMeghan aren't "bad guys for shitting on other people for their lack of originality," you're bad guys because you made a fucking mockery of the game in the spirit of triangles' football analogy. You couldn't do your stupid experimental shit on your own time? Especially in a team environment!
also tbh I did not complain one bit about RNG this entire season so fuck all my haters
But seriously, nobody complains about chess being stale or Nintendo not putting out regular balance patches for Melee. There's room for minor innovations and sheer surprise factor works in the favor of non-standard stuff, but come on man the Gen 3 metagame is pretty old and largely "solved" at this point. A lot of the fun is in finding those little niche tweaks that work, or just in the general turn-to-turn maneuvering and mind games in the moment even if the matchup is bog standard shit vs bog standard shit. Colluding with the opponent to not really play the game as intended in a fucking finals tiebreaker is just plain disrespectful to everyone else involved with this tournament. You (Ojama) and McMeghan aren't "bad guys for shitting on other people for their lack of originality," you're bad guys because you made a fucking mockery of the game in the spirit of triangles' football analogy. You couldn't do your stupid experimental shit on your own time? Especially in a team environment!
also tbh I did not complain one bit about RNG this entire season so fuck all my haters
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
People are really making a mountain out of this molehill. They played a game following ADV mechanics. Honestly, who cares whether or not they agreed to not use Spikes? I definitely agree there could be issues w/breaking a gentleman's agreement w/o due notice. However, it's a good thing we are even capable of having them because it's a sign of integrity and respect among competitors for it to exist, something that isn't publicized too much amid all these negative scandals we've had over the years. If anyone breaks this clause after making an agreement with their opponent, I would certainly expect them to be DQ'd for pulling shady shit like that to gain a competitive advantage off of deception. Both players still brought competitive teams for what they were doing and tried to win. If people are sick and tired of having to bring whatever the 'best' strategy every single time for without having to worry about their opponent bringing it after playing it for years, it's not out of line to go for an agreement about it. All that really should matter are the participants involved and how they feel, not how everyone else feels about it because they're the ones still in the competition, not the spectators.
Everyone saw an ADV game happen between Ojama and McM, and that's all the specs should ever have expected to see: an adv game between a scooter and a tiger.
Everyone saw an ADV game happen between Ojama and McM, and that's all the specs should ever have expected to see: an adv game between a scooter and a tiger.
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