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Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - March 2009

Discussion in 'Pokémetrics' started by DougJustDoug, Apr 5, 2009.

  1. Deschain


    Aug 26, 2008
    i rape teams with my Dusknoir.

    maybe you're just not using the right set and build. :)
  2. neato


    Apr 4, 2009
    i tried them all, i really dont see whats so great about him. I bet you have blissey on your team. thats the only way he can be effective is because blissey is on the team, but rotom would be better.
  3. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 16, 2007
    No, Dusknoir just really is that bad in general. While he is certainly different from Rotom and can do some things rotom can't, those things it can do really suck. i.e. Pain Split is a fairly crappy move (fails to sub, and a ton of pokes will want to sub on the slow dusknoir anyway seeing as w-o-w is the first thing people think when they see it), Duskie doesn't hit hard enough to take advantage of trick room, it doesn't hit hard enough to make good on its physical move pool, etc. etc. The only thing it has that is genuinely good is a Stab Priority move, but even then it's just so weak that it can't make good use of it.

    Also it can only really be tough on one side (usually physical), and gets hit way too had on its weak side. Standard sets are 2hko'd by OU's special/mix attackers in general. Yeah, I could say the same thing about Rotom or Spiritomb (who imo, is also generally crap), but Rotom has more resistances that make it a great switch in to specific opponents, so that its mediocre defenses aren't taking the full force of neutral attacks as often. Also it is faster than all the "slow" pokemon (tyranitar, scizor, suicune, etc.), which is a big help to it. Rotom's design acknowledges that it isn't the incredible hulk of defenses, but speed and resistances mean it can come in (on a few very common OU pokesmon) and get things done with what turns it has (and can make). Duskie just sits there and has to take the pounding. Rotom can also afford to mis-predict and not w-o-w TTar on the switch in (because it will out-speed and burn)-- that alone makes them worlds apart imo.

    Quite frankly I have no idea why anyone would use dusk over rotom or one of the many physical tanks/sweepers that outclass dusk in other ways. When I see a Dusknoir, more than when I see electivire, I think "noob." Maybe if Nintendo gave it a powerful fighting move like revenge and a 120 base power stab ghost attack, we'd be talking but as of now . . .
  4. A.P.


    Jul 14, 2008
    Poor Dusknoir : (

    Thanks for the stats DJD!
  5. MetaNite

    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    May 4, 2008
    I have to disagree with you somewhat Chou. Dusknoir can usually take quite a beating even if he is only focused on one defensive stat, such as surviving MixMence's Draco Meteor while Rotom-A will most likely die. He also fares better against Infernape generally. It has Earthquake to hit it, and Heatran, something Rotom cannot do. I actually find Pain Split useful in stalling out Pokemon. At least it can recover, unlike Rotom-A.
  6. Deschain


    Aug 26, 2008
    i do not use Bliss. i have never used Blissey. i will never use Blissey.

    the set and spread i've come up with and have been using (on wi-fi, granted), is an absolute terror. when i posted it in the "create a new moveset" thread, most people just "meh" at it, but from personal experience, and believe me it's on almost every team i make, it has enough power to kill what it needs to kill, and is extremely bulky, capable of taking even SE hits like a champ.

    but please, disregard and forget about Dusknoir. stop using him. let him fall to UU.

    i would be absolutely estatic if that were to happen.

    i would also love to actually be able to use Rotom-A on wi-fi, but that's not likely to ever happen.


    Apr 26, 2006
    I was thinking the same actually. It'd be awesome for Dusknoir fans if he dropped a tier. Unless he gets banned though, because it'd be pointless then.
  8. Deschain


    Aug 26, 2008
    if he gets banned from UU, i'll just keep using him like i'm using him now, only fewer people will be prepared for him in OU. :naughty:
  9. neato


    Apr 4, 2009
    is your dusknoir WoW/shadowsneak/protect/ some attack? with EV in SpD and HP?
    Spiritomb can do something very similar to the moveset above, only using the special side of the spectrum instead of physical.

    however, he has a better typing and can switch in a lot better than dusknoir can. Anyone with substitute completely stops the moveset as well..
  10. Deschain


    Aug 26, 2008
    EQ is the attack, since Dusknoir is Heatran bait.

    76 EVs in attack.

    i haven't tried the set with Tomb, so i can't vouch for it. all i know is my own experience.

    and Noir can break subs...
  11. Veedrock


    Oct 18, 2008
    I'm curious as to just why Gyarados is doing so well. Number 4?


    95 / 125 / 79 / 60 / 100 / 81

    | Gyarados   | Attack EV    | Max              |    59.2 |
    | Gyarados   | Speed EV     | Max              |    45.6 |
    [COLOR=black]| Gyarados   | Move         | Waterfall        |    97.1 |[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black]| Gyarados   | Move         | Dragon Dance     |    91.2 |[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black]| Gyarados   | Move         | Stone Edge       |    54.6 |[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black]| Gyarados   | Move         | Earthquake       |    43.6 |[/COLOR]
    Quite evident that standard Dragon Dance is most common, with some bulky DD trailing behind offensive.

    Now it's running mate:


    95 / 135 / 80 / 110 / 80 / 100

    [COLOR=black]| Salamence  | Move         | Earthquake       |    79.1 |[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black]| Salamence  | Move         | Outrage          |    64.7 |[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black]| Salamence  | Move         | Dragon Dance     |    49.2 |[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=black]| Salamence  | Move         | Fire Blast       |    48.3 |[/COLOR]
    Seems like standard DD is most common (strange that EQ is above Outrage). There's still high amounts of variety in the rest of the statistics (I can barely pick it apart), but only Dragon Dance is important right now.

    But now the question: what in the hell does Gyarados have over Salamence (aside from a cool shiny)? Any Gyarados user wanna provide some insight? Only major difference is the 4x weakness change. Salamence has much better STAB (and attacks to compliment that STAB), and can also utilize Special Attacks to a high degree of success to get past standard physical barriers. Gyarados, not so much. I'd like feedback as to why/how Gyarados is doing so well when a very similar (and superior from what I can tell) Pokemon is 2 slots above it.
  12. Kay


    May 25, 2008
    I don't really use Gyarados myself, but two things I could think about off the bat are that someone may want to use Salamence as a wallbreaker, and thus also have a DD sweeper. Furthermore, Gyarados does resist Bullet Punch. I would think that those are some possible reasons.
  13. paramylodon


    May 24, 2007
    STAB physical water is an excellent attacking type. I generally find it a lot easier to sweep with DDgyara then I do with DDmence.
    Gyarados is generally bulkier (only 1 base stat advantage in defense for salamence, but bullet punch resist is far more valuable, and gyarados is specially bulkier then dragonite).
    Looking at the top pokemon in OU:
    Scizor-Gyarados does far better then mence (although mence can use fire attacks), in that gyara can set up on scizor (while mence is forced to try and kill imediately), and can only be revenge killed by scizor when at very low health.
    Salamence- Mence is mence. When either comes in on the other they get an intimidate; if one switches in on the other as the other DDances, the one with the dragon dance wins one on one (due to being faster, and having a super effereffective attack). However, as it is the faster one that wins, this would mean salamence would typically be the 1 on 1 winner (being faster).
    Heatran- Often carry hp ice/dragon pulse, which means that gyarados can set up more easily. Gyarados has to be jolly to outspeed scarftran after a DD, however. Gyara can also avoid running eq and still hit it for super effective, as one note.
    Gyara-same comments as for mence.
    Infernape- Often carries HP ice, something mence has a far harder time trying to survive then gyara does the occasional stone edge.
    Metagross- gyara does resist steel, and could therefore switch in more easily, although offensive metagross does tend to carry t-punch (LO meteor mash OHKOs mence after stealth rock, however).
    Tyranitar- Gyara's STAB is super effective, so it would have a better claim at holding a lead then mence does.
    Blissey- blisseys do occasionally carry ice beam (although thunderbolt is something I saw on suspect a few times as well). Mence could hit it harder.
    Swampert- carries ice beam, and can even survive +1 LO outrage. HP: electric is far rarer.
    Latias- Outspeeds and can OHKO either of them.
    Lucario- mence is probably a little better here, being actually able to outspeed lucario. Both are often used to "counter" luke, however.
    Gengar- OHKOed and outsped by either after set up (unless it has scarf). Thunderbolt>gyara if gar is faster.
    Jirachi- being a steel type, it can come in on outraging mences.
    Zapdos- being an electric type, gyara obviously has more to fear, but 'dos being sr week would need to make sure it roosts regularly to stay at high health, as otherwise it could only come in a few times (though, gyara would suffer the same problem). Mence obviously does better against zapdos, but a t-bolt can threaten a good bit of damage.
    Celebi- walls gyara. DDmence also doesn't enjoy celebi very much at all (but celebi would need t-wave to be able to solidly end mence, as grass knot doesn't accomplish much). 11.4% of gyara do have bounce, however, so depending on the team gyarados can be geared to overcome.
    Starmie- threatens gyarados more.
    Azelf- not much of a difference, although if it is a special attacker, gyara would take less damage.
    Breloom- salamence does much better here of course (though, neither want to switch into a spore).
    Gliscor- gyara hits it with a super effective stab.
    Vaporeon- gains health when switching into gyara's stab, and 37% have hp electric (while only 30% have ice beam) so it's clear that gyara is far more threatened.
    Bronzong- resists mence's stab, but nuetral to gyara's.
    Skarmory- same as above. If skarmory doesn't promptly whirlwind, it is playing with fire as it is bound to get flinched by waterfall (or meet a crit) and then die after being unable to roost.

    Going on much further then this probably wont help make the point get across any better.
    I think I actually got very carried away and didn't realize I'd better stop typing. I went on autopilot for a little while because I'm getting tired...

    The point I was trying to make-and hopefully got across without explicitly stating above-is that they are different pokemon, and fair differently when facing different threats (and can also each be adapted towards being better able to overcome different threats, such as adding bounce to gyara). Depending on the team DDgyara can very often be a better fit then DDmence (or, as you mentioned yourself, when the team already has a different version of mence, such as mixmence).

    Also, Gyarados has 81 base speed, not 80. The 1 base stat point difference there in speed has some impact.

    My biggest disagreement is over the "much better STAB" comment. Looking at the top 30, their are 8 dragon resists, and 8 water resists. An exactly equal number of resists for both of their STABs.
    I'd say, from that selection, gyara's STAB actually looks better (but it depends on the team which you personally care to hit hard, and which you don't).

    Doing the math to see the total number of dragon resist usage among OU pokemon and total number of water resist usage reveals:
    Dragon resist: 631309
    Water resist: 606199
    I'd be more then happy if someone were to double check whether or not I missed anything when adding these pokemon up (again, it is late).
    That is more dragon resists then water resists. That makes water the better attacking type here.
    There is also a kicker in that physically bulky pokemon (excluding bulky waters), which are generally ground and steel types, are week or nuetral to water. Contrast this to DDmence who is often instead forced to use STAB outrage, so that the physically bulky resist can come in and then simply dispatch mence.
    Many of those water resists are from sweepers (the two most used water resists are salamence and gyarados, both of whom are week to stone edge...although I'm surprised to see that is only ran 54% of the time), while most bulky things are only neutral (all the steels barring the relatively rare empoleon; and the ground types such as hippo and gliscor are week to it).

    Mence having "much better STAB" is a comment that is simply wrong.
  14. neato


    Apr 4, 2009
    huh those 76 EVs make a huge difference.
    he's definitely doing a lot better now >.>
    now if only he knew non ghost curse or bulk up :(
  15. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    Reason #1: Typing.
    Gyarados's typing is excellent because gyarados can cover a lot of the top threats, where as salamence cannot (think scizor, heatran, infernape, etc.)

    Gyarados isn't revenged as easily either, and does need to lock itself into outrage (I guess salamence can use dragon claw, but then it's missing a lot of KOs

    Gyarados has better defensive stats as well.

    All in all, gyarados fits better on to teams (synergy, countering threats and such) and is a lot easier to use, (you need to predict well to use salamence to it's fullest potential)
  16. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider sharpening his claws, slowly
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 1, 2008
    Really, the #1 reason is Scizor's Bullet Punch - Salamence fears it, whereas Gyarados sees it as an opportunity to set up. Being able to set up on the #1 used Pokemon in OU is a massive advantage, and is really what sets Gyarados apart from Salamence. Also, Gyarados doesn't lock itself into a STAB attack when it wants to do big damage - once a Salamence user selects Outrage, they're pretty much giving in to the fact that they will get two big hits on something and Salamence is going to die. Gyarados and Salamence are pretty much identically bulky on the physical side, but Gyarados is way bulkier on the special, and so can switch into the likes of Heatran and especially Infernape a lot easier. But yeah, Salamence is a lot harder to wall and hits considerably harder, but there are subtle differences beyond simple base stats that make Gyarados a better choice on many teams.

    Pretty much what pana said really :).
  17. hsb39


    Oct 3, 2008
    Yay! Smeargle in OU. I wonder how much I have contributed to that. Lvl. 1 lead is a complete beast, I was using it as a gimmick and found that most of the time I fainted one Pokemon and put another to sleep.

    As for Dusknoir, the big thing for me is the use of physical attacks that it has. It does that better than any other Ghost, I'm surprised that EQ isn't more common, not only does it get Heatran, but all other Fires trying to absorb WoW (mainly Infernape there). Also the elemental punches, and my favourite, Shadow Sneak.

    And of course! Thanks Doug, you're awesome.
  18. Staraptor Call

    Staraptor Call

    Mar 7, 2009
    You're forgetting one large reason why one would use Dusknoir over Rotom-A: Gravity. Dusknoir is an essential Pokemon to any Gravity team, and, due to the Gravity team guide being recently released, more people are trying Gravity teams with Dusknoir. Many people are also having success with those Gravity teams.
  19. Veedrock


    Oct 18, 2008
    Thanks for the responses; I can't believe I forgot about Scizor ~_~ Still a lot higher than I'd expect.
  20. BRShooter


    Nov 26, 2008
    UU Server Statistics:

    | Jynx | Nature | Lonely | 2.7 |
    | Jynx | Attack EV | Max | 0.2 |

    what in the blue hell...?
  21. MtNiesen


    Mar 3, 2009
    i'm doing the same thing with yanmega
  22. petrie911


    Aug 27, 2005
    Perhaps someone was trying to get the most out of Trickbanding Jynx?
  23. DarXidE


    Apr 15, 2009
    Originally Posted by Fat Love destiny [​IMG]
    Swampert checks a whole lot of things in this metagame. What? DDMence can OHKO it.

    With only one weakness: Grass, an uncommon type in OU, this thing is a beast. It isn't that uncommon. Most electrics go Grass>Ice and the 5th most used pokemon uses it alot

    Also, Suicune can't take Electric attacks well without a CM in its belt. Even with a CM, it is still scared to take hits from Pokemon like Jolteon, Magnezone. Calm minds are very easy to set up on things like Celebi and Zapdos that try to "counter" you.
    Electric Immunity+Stealth Rock+Reliable checking (not a reason backed up by facts) are the reasons why Swampert is used more than Suicune. Suicune is just an example. Slowbro says Hi (slack off).

    Yeah, it's a Stealth Rock user that sets it apart from Suicune. I'm guessing CB and Cursetalk are also the other most used Swampert sets(They are all good, and CB is surprisingly good.) Seriously what advantage does Suicune have over than Swampert other than a CM set? Much better defenses. I can only think of faster base speed and less damage taken from Mixmence 240/216 Relaxed Swampert can be OHKO'd by DDOutrage. Nothing much you can do to tell people to go from Swampert->Suicune. History informs us Swampert has been used more than Suicune for a total of 8 months in Smogon Shoddy Server. Donphan and Physical Electivire are used, does that mean they are better than things like Starmie and Metagross, mence, etc. at doing their jobs?

    I think Swampert is better, also because it has access to both counter and mirror coat, which is how i use mine. ( i use my own creative movesets, like the calm mind and rest bronzong which will catch on very soon!)
  24. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 26, 2008
    Actually a + 1 Outrage will fail to OHKO a Swampert, just saying

    607 Atk vs 291 Def & 401 HP (120 Base Power): 270 - 318 (67.33% - 79.30%)
  25. haunter

    haunter Banned deucer.

    Aug 6, 2007
    Add a life orb and you have a good chance of OHKO (86.03% - 101.25%) with SR on the field. I believe he just wanted to say that Swampert isn't a good switch into Salamece.

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