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Discussion in 'Pokémetrics' started by DougJustDoug, Jun 3, 2009.
Latias Counter I believe
Porygon2 is just sexy.
Porygon2 is such a deadweight Pokemon. All it does is counter 3 pokemon, and only 1 of those reliably at that. It can't support a team either. there's so many better things you could put in a teamslot than porygon2.
I disagree with that Bogmire. Porygon2 can counter more than just Salamence, Gyarados, and Heatran. For example if it switches into Blissey Porygon2 can stall it out with Toxic and can avoid being permanently statused with its copied Natural Cure. And the three Pokemon you said it counters, Salamence, Gyarados, and Heatran, happen to be #2, #3, and #4 in usage. That it can't support the team also is false because it can use Toxic for easier stalling or paralyze Pokemon for a slow sweeper.
As for Dugtrio I think he can enter UU without much of a problem. sure trapping would be an issue but out side of grounded fires and poisons not sure what it would be used for that would pose a threat. Heracross, now that would shake things up, especially if both Crobat and Honchkrow get banned.
Jolteons shot up so much these passed few months. Not too surprised considering it has a great immunity and Specsjolt is a beast.
Porygon2 counters DDMence, DDGyara, Heatran (particularly Choice-locked Tran), SpecsJolteon, and Vaporeon (especially if it lacks Toxic). It's also just a tank in general, with access to Bolt/Beam, Recover, and your choice of T-Wave support, Toxic support, or a Hidden Power. T-Wave support (and the ability to counter all of that) allow Pory2 to contribute to setting up SD Lucario or Heracross, or any Curse sweeper, or slower sweepers in general.
The number of pokemon shown in the teammate stats varies by ladder. I came up with the various teammate numbers, limits, and lists in an attempt to make the teammate stats somewhat interesting. When I first compiled teammate stats simply by rank, it gave me a lot of data, but didn't really "tell me anything".
After experimenting with a couple of things, I settled on a combination of "By Rank" and "By Change" stats as a way of seeing how the standard usage list alters when a single pokemon is known to be on a team.
I really wanted to make a list of teammates ranked by change in percentage usage compared to standard usage. But I couldn't figure out a decent way to numerically represent the change. So I just list the two percentages for all the teammates, but I don't compare them mathematically.
As with all things related to SU stats, it is a major struggle to keep the overall amount of data under control. The limits I set on number of teammates are an attempt to show enough of the top pokemon to be informative, without wasting resources on stats that don't have sufficient base data to be statistically relevant or interesting. Obviously, it is quite subjective as to what data is "interesting", but I did my best.
Overall, based on data references and general community feedback -- the teammate stats were pretty much a waste of my time. A few people find it interesting, but most people never use them. People relate to the standard usage charts and the detail stats, and use those a ton. Teammates were a pet project of mine, because I was interested in it at the time. But very few people look at teammate stats, so I'm not currently spending much time on improving them.
Well, it depends on how you play and against what team you are playing. Against stall, Porygon2 is utter crap. Against offensive teams, his use depends on your playstyle. If you like prediction, you are definitely going to get better results with a revenge killer. If not, it might be a useful hinge to use on your team.
Regardless, there usually are better options.
It's okay Dougie, I use your teammate stats. :( For example, only about 30% of people that used Garchomp on Suspect also used Tyranitar.
P2 kicks ass, get out of town.
Heracross dropped another four spots last month, now putting it 44th on the Standard ladder. It's mind-blowing that I would actually type this, but... at this rate, we might see Heracross in UU in the not-too-distant future. Wow. Just wow...
He's way too slow for OU, and [most] people don't know how to play him right, plus there as too many faster counters.
Some evs lets you outrun Scarf Trace Gardevoir...i know,no one uses it,but if a Scarf Gardevoir Tricks the item on Ninjask while outspeeding everything,that's not gonna be fun gonna be fun... I've swept 6-0 two times with only Gardy because of that(since no BP team uses Blissey or any special wall)
You got to be careful with everything even if it's a small possibility(like the example before),since one single move can cost the entire match...
Well,back to the topic
Umbreon,probably,is gonna be OU next month...oh well,the fun i had sweeping teams with it is over...
And why people only uses Heracross with a Choice item?Come on,use something else!Swords Dance version is really nice,with sub is just sexy lol
The funny thing is only a few pokemon use a given move 100% of the time (trapinch e-quake one of them), and scizor bullet punch is not one of them.
also, i actually like umbreon and porgon2 usage going up, i've loved both of them since the days of G/S, and now, they both have a cool niche in OU: porygon2 counters dd gyara and mence, heatran (mine has hp ground when i use it), and two of the eeveelutions (vaporeon and jolteon), while umbreon has 2 roles: curse( weaker, but more devensive version of lax, personally it is worse to my team), and trap passer on BP teams, both roles are usable. that's that for my rant, thanks again to DJD for putting the effort in on what has to be an incredibly difficult task.
Still if you manage to trap pass a blissey or crsselia you could bp to something that is potentially fatal to the opponents team like rock polishing rhyperior.
Here's some things I have to say on the recent topics here:
Porygon2: I use this little guy on most of my teams. There are two ways to describe Porygon2. A Blissey with better offences, Trace, and better physical defence, but worse special. The other, is a Cress with lower defences, but the ever-useful Trace, Thunderbolt, and a recovery move that isn't cut down by T-Tar, and has more PP.
Porygon 2 can run Toxic, they can run Thunder Wave for Support. They can BoltBeam. They can Recover. Porygon 2 is like precison tool, use it right, and it cripples, use it wrong, and it dosen't. Sometimes, I KO 3 or 4 pokemon with Porygon. Oh, and abilities to use against things:
Flygon - Levitate, come in on an EQ. Most Flygons are Scarfed or CB'ed.
Intimidators-Fire it back at them. Garados and Salamance will hate you for it.
Heatran/Jolt/Vaporeon - Only Vaporeon will be able to stay in at all usually. Heatran and Jolteon both are often locked on a move that either won't get past P2, or, is doing nothing at all.
Blisseys are fun, if you have Toxic. Force em out, then get rid of any status yourself.
Umbreon: This guy is nasty. Defences on both sides that rival Cress, and Moonlight to boot. Think of it as a Dark-typed Cress, that can Wishpass, but dosen't float, has lower HP, and more physical based offensivly. Don't use or see it much, so can't say much more. Although, UmbCress would be a viable walling combo, if Scizor wasn't so popular, with it's X-Scissors.
Heracross: I see this guy falling to the nethereigions of BL. It's too strong for UU, due to it's massive attack power, and GUTS, due to the more common Toxic Spikes from LeadRoserades. However, it's too slow for today's metagame. Although, Scarfacross might still see some use. Big issue for Heracross is Scizor, who has a higher base attack, can pull off Fighting+Bug with it's almighty Bullet Punches, better speed, better typeing, and better defences. Heracross has been falling since Platinum for a reason.
Dugtrio: As stall falls, so will the use of Duggy. It's low defences make it fall too easy, especially to Priority, and lack of it's own makes it dead meat for DDGara, Jolt, and DDMance, ect. Blissey's use has fallen, and that was the natural Prey of Duggy, so Duggy suffers.
You do realize Dugtrio has Sucker Punch, however unreliable, correct?
Why when you can use Blissey/Tyranitar? She gets Seismic Toss, Thunder Wave, fire moves, Stealth Rock, and a 1-turn recovery move which isn't screwed by weather. Both are screwed by Trick, but I'd rather be tossing around Thunder Waves than Toxics / Paybacks anyday. If you want something more offensive or for CMers, use Tyranitar. Careful TTar with CB easily handles CM Latias, and has power to abuse dark STAB, unlike Umbreon. With better ways of handling Latias such as Tyranitar, Scarf Heracross/Flygon/Salamence, Blissey, Scizor, etc I can't see why anyone would waste a slot on their team for a pokemon to counter a single other pokemon, while bringing no support otherwise(besides the occasional Mean Look + BP, or Yawn, have fun pulling off the former with all the steels around). Shit, if you wanna be "original" you can even use something like Registeel, who can set up rocks, Thunder Wave, etc. There is no room for Umbreon in this metagame, but if fools want to keep using him I can't argue anymore.
EDIT: Dugtrio still gets to prey on Specs Jolt, Heatran, Tyranitar, etc. I don't suspect it to fall much more.
Since Shaymin is limbo, I think Torterra might get enough usages for OU. That would be great, all three starters in OU.
EDIT #2: Shit, even Psych Up Regice can counter Latias.
Yes, I do realise the existance of Sucker Punch, however, Sucker Punch, as you admitted, is unreliable, and at base 60 Power, it isn't going to put much of a dent in the likes of Scizor who will OHKO with Bullet Punch, Metagross, who could BP Dugtrio for massive damage, ect. Sucker Punch may have priority, but it isn't reliable, or useful, for Dugtrio's role as a revenge killer/trapper, except for killing the likes of Dusknoir, and Psychics such as Alakazam. (Gengar would be the main thing for SP, and it has levitate, so can switch out)
Sucker Punch actually has 80 base power.
Heracross has been in decline since before plat.
The changes to the metagame that DP brought have slowly but surely made him not as viable as he was in advance.
If Heracross drops down to UU I see every team carrying a Weezing.
Plus the fact that no one really wants to base a team around him anymore, and actually have 2-3 Pokemon to make it work.
There are "easier" things to use. With less Pokemon needed to help it.
Thanks for the work Doug!
Here's something that just occurred to me:
What if there were stats compiled for moves that are often paired with each other? Similar to Teammate statistics, except this would be for the individual moves that are isolated in the usage statistics. Yes, we have the Common Movesets that X-Act puts out every so often, but that seems more useful for figuring out a Pokemon's set as soon as it comes out; I find this acceptable for Pokemon that have one common set. On the other hand, I believe that having these proposed statistics at my disposal would make it easier for me to figure out a Pokemon's set more quickly once I've seen one of the moves, particularly if the Pokemon has more than one common set.
The only concern I have is whether these stats would be worth the additional effort to compile them.
What do you think?
I don't think it would be that bad. Nidoqueen also stops it with only strange Earthquake hitting super-effective. Dusclops would be ok as a check only fearing CB Nigh Slash. Also Max HP/Max Def Gligar can't be 2OHKOed by CB Stone Edge. And lack of priority and average speed means that Heracross is quite easy to revenge kill. I think it would be force that you need to respect, but nothing, that completely overpoweres metagame. And unlike for example Staraptor it can't avoid his counter with U-Turn. But yeah, I guess Heracross is less popular, because it lacks priority like Lucario. Heracross would love to have Dragon Dance ;).
About Statistics - probably the most interesting things:
a) Blissey out of top10 - Wow...
b) Garchomp in Ubers top10 - Smogoners start to see potential here ;). Good to see.
c) Cresselia and Heracross really close to UU. I think Heracross is ok, but I see Cresselia being BL really fast. Her defences are really Lugia-like and with only few strong Dark, Ghost and Bug type attackers Cressy for me would make UU-stall really annoying.
d) Porygon2 in top50. I'm one of few, who don't want to see cyber duck in OU as I love too use it in UU ;). But I guess it deserves being the only pokemon, which counters Gyara, DDMence and Heatran at once.
e) Heh, Smeargle, please come back to UU. I miss alot that SR + Spikes combo, which I can't replace with anything in UU.