Smogon Usage-Based Tier Update: June 2014

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#76
I guess I'm not surprised that Blissey dropped to UU. OU only has room for one Pink Blob, and last gen Blissey's big advantage over Chansey was Leftover staving off Sandstorm and Hazard damage. With the Weather nerf and Defog, as well as AV making the meta used to walls without item recovery, Chansey's better special and (especially) physical bulk is a bigger selling point than Leftovers. I still prefer Blissey because it can run Flamethrower and doesn't get crippled as badly by Knock Off, but I can see why Chansey would be more popular. As for Blissey being banned, UU's used to having the lesser Pink Blob. I think Blissey will survive just fine.

As for the others...

Alakazam: God damn it. I really like this guy with Magic Guard and Life Orb or Focus Sash... if only it got a better Mega, Zam might still be OU. The same way I made an ubers team when Blaziken got banned, I might start playing UU just for Alakazam because I like it that much actually. Assuming it doesnt get banned of course, but UU just got Blissey so that'll help matters.

Infernape: For the first time in forever, OU doesn't have a Fire/Fighting type?! Resuspect Blaziken! LOL Anyway, yeah I saw this one coming too. The ape's versatility and speed aren't as useful in an environment full of priority that hits it SE, where its frail defenses are much easier to exploit, where 104 in its attacking stat just wont cut it. I'm interested in seeing where the ape of all trades will end up running in UU though, and like with Alakazam, it intrigues me enough to want to play UU and use the Ape for myself.

Goodra: In the beginning of the generation I was worried that Goodra, with its superior coverage options, mono-dragon typing, and insane bulk, would eclipse my beloved Lati twins (or at least Latias) and drive them out of high OU. Turns out the opposite is true, though someone's going to have to sit me down and explain why. He'll do just fine in UU, Goodra's a great Pokemon. I can actually see an AV set working well paired with Blissey, in the same vein as Staraptor/Talonflame or Gen IV Ubers Mence/Rayquaza.

Lucario: I hate this Pokemon, I hate how Gamefreak shoved it down our throats, I hate its broken Mega, I hate its presence in Smash Bros over more deserving mons like Mewtwo or Genesect, and I am thrilled that the stupid blue spiked jackal is finally out of OU. Granted, he may be promoted to BL due to his power and versatility, but Im sure there will be ways for the UU players to tame this beast.

Volcarona: This loss to me was tragic. Especially with SR and rain not being as big of an issue, I thought TFlame was going to shine this gen. If only Talonflame wasn't stupidly powerful, if only its movepool was better, maybe itd still be OU. Of all the new UU members, this is the one I think is most likely to get banned, and my Mandibuzz team might have to make room for TFlame in a desperate attempt to get this awesome moth back into OU.

Let's see... Jolteon is RU now, but that won't last since Manetric got promoted. Jolteon'll fill that nitch and become UU again in no time. I do think that the three Megas that made it into OU (Gardevoir, Manetric, and Megacham) are interesting; I may have to try them out myself to see why they made the cut. Looks like Diantha was on to something after all...? (again, those three need explaining)

Scoliopede, I'm glad he's OU, he looks like a ton of fun with Speed Boost and all, kind of like Blaziken except not as broken. Though I have no clue what Quagsire, Vaporeon, and Smeargle are doing here. Do they really offer THAT much to OU as a whole, or even just to BP?
 
#78
I guess I'm not surprised that Blissey dropped to UU. OU only has room for one Pink Blob, and last gen Blissey's big advantage over Chansey was Leftover staving off Sandstorm and Hazard damage. With the Weather nerf and Defog, as well as AV making the meta used to walls without item recovery, Chansey's better special and (especially) physical bulk is a bigger selling point than Leftovers. I still prefer Blissey because it can run Flamethrower and doesn't get crippled as badly by Knock Off, but I can see why Chansey would be more popular. As for Blissey being banned, UU's used to having the lesser Pink Blob. I think Blissey will survive just fine.

As for the others...

Alakazam: God damn it. I really like this guy with Magic Guard and Life Orb or Focus Sash... if only it got a better Mega, Zam might still be OU. The same way I made an ubers team when Blaziken got banned, I might start playing UU just for Alakazam because I like it that much actually. Assuming it doesnt get banned of course, but UU just got Blissey so that'll help matters. Lol nope Psyshock(with Blissey, Goodra, Florges and even Volcarona in case you are Sashkazam, there is hardly a reason to run Psychic over it, unless you are really a fan of tracing Sheer Force from those Nidoqueen and Darmanitan)

Infernape: For the first time in forever, OU doesn't have a Fire/Fighting type?! Resuspect Blaziken! LOL Anyway, yeah I saw this one coming too. The ape's versatility and speed aren't as useful in an environment full of priority that hits it SE, where its frail defenses are much easier to exploit, where 104 in its attacking stat just wont cut it. I'm interested in seeing where the ape of all trades will end up running in UU though, and like with Alakazam, it intrigues me enough to want to play UU and use the Ape for myself.

Goodra: In the beginning of the generation I was worried that Goodra, with its superior coverage options, mono-dragon typing, and insane bulk, would eclipse my beloved Lati twins (or at least Latias) and drive them out of high OU. Turns out the opposite is true, though someone's going to have to sit me down and explain why. He'll do just fine in UU, Goodra's a great Pokemon. I can actually see an AV set working well paired with Blissey, in the same vein as Staraptor/Talonflame or Gen IV Ubers Mence/Rayquaza.

Basically doesn't have reliable recovery(lol HydraRest) and can't actually support his team, unlike the twins which have Defog, Wish, Healing Wish, the screens and Memento. Plus they also resist Fighting, and for what's worth, Psychic.

Lucario: I hate this Pokemon, I hate how Gamefreak shoved it down our throats, I hate its broken Mega, I hate its presence in Smash Bros over more deserving mons like Mewtwo or Genesect, and I am thrilled that the stupid blue spiked jackal is finally out of OU. Granted, he may be promoted to BL due to his power and versatility, but Im sure there will be ways for the UU players to tame this beast.

Volcarona: This loss to me was tragic. Especially with SR and rain not being as big of an issue, I thought TFlame was going to shine this gen. If only Talonflame wasn't stupidly powerful, if only its movepool was better, maybe itd still be OU. Of all the new UU members, this is the one I think is most likely to get banned, and my Mandibuzz team might have to make room for TFlame in a desperate attempt to get this awesome moth back into OU.

Let's see... Jolteon is RU now, but that won't last since Manetric got promoted. Jolteon'll fill that nitch and become UU again in no time. I do think that the three Megas that made it into OU (Gardevoir, Manetric, and Megacham) are interesting; I may have to try them out myself to see why they made the cut. Looks like Diantha was on to something after all...? (again, those three need explaining) Why would you use Jolteon when you still have access to Raikou tho.
Gardevoir and Medicham are both pretty strong wallbreakers, while Manectric just fits perfectly in the current OU metagame, checking, revenging or even countering tons of shits(e.g. non BDrum Azumarill, Talonflame, Charizard Y, Thundurus, Scizor, Adamant DD Gyarados, Skarmory and more) and can escape from tough situations with Volt Switch


Scoliopede, I'm glad he's OU, he looks like a ton of fun with Speed Boost and all, kind of like Blaziken except not as broken. Though I have no clue what Quagsire, Vaporeon, and Smeargle are doing here. Do they really offer THAT much to OU as a whole, or even just to BP?
Quagsire's usage and viability have nothing to do with Baton Pass tbh, it's a mediocre answer to this archetype since it can't take stored powers and must run haze in order to break the chain(which means giving up a perhaps more useful Toxic). Instead, it's awesome at walling top boosters such as X-Zard, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Scizor, Dragonite and many others, making it a stall staple. Smeargle and Vaporeon are here just for Baton Pass yeah.
 
#79
I guess I'm not surprised that Blissey dropped to UU. OU only has room for one Pink Blob, and last gen Blissey's big advantage over Chansey was Leftover staving off Sandstorm and Hazard damage. With the Weather nerf and Defog, as well as AV making the meta used to walls without item recovery, Chansey's better special and (especially) physical bulk is a bigger selling point than Leftovers. I still prefer Blissey because it can run Flamethrower and doesn't get crippled as badly by Knock Off, but I can see why Chansey would be more popular. As for Blissey being banned, UU's used to having the lesser Pink Blob. I think Blissey will survive just fine.
I thought about the Sandstorm + Leftovers thing a lot, and I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference. Blissey does have another advantage though, in that it takes weak special attacks like Scalds and Charge Beams better, since it can often recover off a significant amount of their damage with Leftovers. Obviously Chansey takes the strong special attacks like Focus Blasts (and all physical attacks) much better though.

Also, with regards to Chansey, I noticed that a lot of NFEs get surprisingly low usage, and that may have played a part in Chansey's lower usage in the past. I reckon this is because a lot of casual players don't even consider using them. Other notable examples at the moment are Magneton and Fletchinder (although they do perform a lot better in the 1760 stats every tier UU, RU and NU). Same applies to Rhydon in NU, who doesn't seem to be very popular in NU considering a slightly improved version of it is #1 in RU.
 
#80
Just making sure: you do realize that UU Pokemon can still be used in OU, right? Just saying--there's no "loss."
Yeah, sorry the wording was kind of off, I'm just sad that it's not used more, as I really, really like Volcarona.

Talpr0ne said:
Lol nope Psyshock(with Blissey, Goodra, Florges and even Volcarona in case you are Sashkazam, there is hardly a reason to run Psychic over it, unless you are really a fan of tracing Sheer Force from those Nidoqueen and Darmanitan)
Oh derp. Forgot about Psyshock. Yeah, he may be gone soon after all unless Blissey can actually take those hits. I'm on a school computer so I can't run calcs though.

Also, I'm sorry if everything I'm saying is kind of stupid, thanks a bunch for being awesome :D

Talpr0ne said:
Basically doesn't have reliable recovery(lol HydraRest) and can't actually support his team, unlike the twins which have Defog, Wish, Healing Wish, the screens and Memento. Plus they also resist Fighting, and for what's worth, Psychic.
Oh okay, that makes sense, I think I was making too big a deal of the dark and ghost weaknesses in this meta. Also the twins have Trick, a staple on every choice set I run ^_^

Talpr0ne said:
Why would you use Jolteon when you still have access to Raikou tho.
Manetric got a ton of usage in UU this month, and now that it's gone, I have a feeling that enough of its former usage will go to Jolteon to put it back in low UU, even if it is unwarranted. In all fairness, that extra speed and Baton Pass can be nice, enough to give it a nich, if a small one. Either that or Raikou's about to dominate the UU tier.

Talpr0ne said:
Gardevoir and Medicham are both pretty strong wallbreakers, while Manectric just fits perfectly in the current OU metagame, checking, revenging or even countering tons of shits(e.g. non BDrum Azumarill, Talonflame, Charizard Y, Thundurus, Scizor, Adamant DD Gyarados, Skarmory and more) and can escape from tough situations with Volt Switch
Again, makes perfect sense. I never thought to use Gardevoir or MegaCham as wallbreakers but I can see how they will be effective. Manetric is a bit of genius, given how it can check such a big portion of the metagame, Kudos to those who used it!

Talpr0ne said:
Quagsire's usage and viability have nothing to do with Baton Pass tbh, it's a mediocre answer to this archetype since it can't take stored powers and must run haze in order to break the chain(which means giving up a perhaps more useful Toxic). Instead, it's awesome at walling top boosters such as X-Zard, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Scizor, Dragonite and many others, making it a stall staple. Smeargle and Vaporeon are here just for Baton Pass yeah.
Again, didn't think of Quagsire that way!

Another question: is there something of an OU-bump mons might get? Like MegaCham for example, was used just enough to make it into OU. Now that it's officially OU and people know about it, will that bump up its usage further? Is that a trend among new OU members?
 

Antar

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#81
Another question: is there something of an OU-bump mons might get? Like MegaCham for example, was used just enough to make it into OU. Now that it's officially OU and people know about it, will that bump up its usage further? Is that a trend among new OU members?
This is definitely a thing: Emboar was NU for the longest time last generation, then some spammer managed to get it RU (which resulted in us moving to weighted stats for our tiers), and it never dropped back down, pretty much because people started thinking of it as an "RU mon."

This is one of the only things I dislike about Pokemon Showdown that the teambuilder gives you that list of OU Pokemon when you start making an OU team, but the truth is that there's no good solutions, since you can't really argue that listing all non-Uber Pokemon is better for anyone.

My only hope is that this is *less* of a problem now that we're using the increased baseline.
 

Pocket

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#82
Whatchyu talking aabout Antar?! Emboar was full-fledged RU material. It's a surprise it stayed in NU for so long. It was one of those "NU mons" that nobody in RU touched because of its NU status, but became popular once people knew that it's a great fit in RU. Same goes for Absol and Amoonguss, both of which were NU for a long time. Alomomola also became a big trend in RU, and that Pokemon would have no doubt rose to RU if the BW2 tiers weren't frozen yet.

Find a better example IMO :|
 

Antar

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#83
Pocket, you just said the exact same thing that I did: it didn't get enough RU usage to be RU as long as it was listed as NU, but when got listed as RU, its usage spiked and stayed there.

If Emboar were broken in NU and had been placed in BL3, then you could argue it wasn't an "NU mon" but people gotta realize: tiers aren't viability lists--they're popularity lists, and the primary effect (if not the intended purpose) of us having tiers is so that the most Pokemon possible (basically everyone except the BLs) have a place to shine.
 
#84
From my experience I've gathered that the reverse is also true. Since Donphan and the other pre-increased baseline garbage(i.e. Galvantula) dropped they are becoming much rarer in the low OU ladder. Don't know if it's only my impression of it is actually true.
 
#86
To be honest, I'm surprised it took this long for Blissey to fall to UU. It has pretty much always been overshadowed by Chansey, even last generation. The whole "Blissey is better than Chansey in Sand" line was always a myth. Yeah, Chansey takes Sand damage, but Blissey is also losing its Leftovers recovery. Either way, both Pokemon are losing 6.25% of their health that they could have had at the end of the turn had it not been for the Sand damage, and it has been shown again and again that Chansey still takes hits better even when factoring in Sand. The only time that Blissey had the advantage was when taking really weak attacks so that Leftovers would heal large percentages of the damage taken (and even that often required Protect to really make a difference), but that was true regardless of whether or not you were in Sand.
 
#88
Yeah, sorry the wording was kind of off, I'm just sad that it's not used more, as I really, really like Volcarona.
You do realize that Volcy has more potential in UU, a tier where there's no Heatran to wall it or Talonflame, Azumarill, or Crawdaunt to pick it off with priority? Hopefully he'll stay UU so he'd get *some* use, instead of being doomed to BL where his usage will be close to 0...
 
#90
Once full baton pass chains are banned, smeargle and vaporeon are going to fall as fast as they risen
Actually, not really. Since tiers only update every 3 months, they will both be OU (along with Espeon) until September. Smeargle actually would have fallen to NU if not for Baton Pass, and it will take a whopping 9 months to return to its true tier, which is pretty ridiculous tbh.
 
#92
So, Mega Waifu is finally OU. There is justice in the world.


A shame that Scolipede and Quagsire will be left out of UU until September, though.
I really don't get why Quagsire is associated with BP so much. It doesn't really even beat BP consistently, even with Haze. It is good in OU in a BP-less metagame, being a staple on stall. Vaporeon and Smeargle, on the other hand...

Also, Scolipede has been banned from UU for quite a while now and is actually good in OU outside of full BP, so Scolipede's rise will barely have any repercussions.
 

Mario With Lasers

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#93
I really don't get why Quagsire is associated with BP so much. It doesn't really even beat BP consistently, even with Haze. It is good in OU in a BP-less metagame, being a staple on stall. Vaporeon and Smeargle, on the other hand...

Also, Scolipede has been banned from UU for quite a while now and is actually good in OU outside of full BP, so Scolipede's rise will barely have any repercussions.
Oh, I didn't know about Scolipede. And about Quagsire, it's more that it's Low OU already; BP getting nerfed will most likely make it drop out from OU again.
 
#94
Agent Gibbs, again, this is very likely to due to the changes we've made in how we weight the stats. The 1760 stats I posted for April (which used the last system) have Blissey pretty solidly in OU range. It's really not so much that OU users have finally "gotten wise"--it's that I'm finally filtering out the "dumb ones" (no offense to Blissey lovers).
Same reason why in the 1760 stats of OU, Amoonguss would be UU (I think that's how it works, it has like 2.9% usage IIRC) because in the top ladder amoonguss/quag/chansey core is really common in stall, and it's really good, so much that sometimes it is used over Mega Venusaur for another mega and works perfectly. Amoonguss is viable in OU stall but it's RU, IMO if it ever gets UU it will actually have a lot of usage once people realize it's good.
 
#95
Same reason why in the 1760 stats of OU, Amoonguss would be UU (I think that's how it works, it has like 2.9% usage IIRC) because in the top ladder amoonguss/quag/chansey core is really common in stall, and it's really good, so much that sometimes it is used over Mega Venusaur for another mega and works perfectly. Amoonguss is viable in OU stall but it's RU, IMO if it ever gets UU it will actually have a lot of usage once people realize it's good.
No, in order to get into UU you must have 3.4% usage on the UU ladder, the OU ladder has nothing to do with it. However, if Amoonguss manages to get more popular in OU until September, it can jump straight from RU to OU, like Medicham did this month.
 
#99
I'm really disappointed to see Infernape drop to UU. I've considered him as an anti-meta Pokemon since the beginning of Gen 6 thanks to his dual STAB, impressive attack stats, and wide move pool that supply him with Grass Knot and Stone Edge. He can easily take out the majority of the first 20 most used Pokemon in OU. But I guess Ape's paper like defenses and not perfect speed leaves him vulnerable for revenge killing. Not gonna lie, Infernape can be easily assassinated but it all depends on how you play around with it. It does require a lot of team support and is outclassed by many sweepers. Still, underrated in my opinion.
 
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