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Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Cooper, Dec 9, 2007.
Oh, but I have to say that I LOVE DougJustDoug's drawing. Looks sahweet.
Unfortunately I missed the second poll and didn't notice the newfangled typing of this icy bug, so I voted for a physical tank. Now that I see the two 4x weaks and 50% SR damage, I wish for either a different vote or a really good ability. Judging by the tallies so far, it appears this poke is gonna be a mixed sweeper. This isn't bad, but the typing really is horrible defensively and I hope we can come up with a balanced ability to help out.
As for the visual, I'd prefer a large insect rather than a small dainty spider, but this wouldn't really fit the role of a sweeper. ^^^ the spider is nice, but I'd rather find much less common bug. (I wish I had an example, but I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to insects) Anyway, interesting typing and I look forward to the next poll.
again: i really think we should just use magic guard.
if we're not assuming it has magic guard, we should change the type.
Another variation on an ability that would give Rock immunity: What if we called it "Alpine" or "Mountaineer". Essentially conveys the idea that this pokemon is familiar with mountains. What's a major rule of mountain safety? "Beware of falling rocks." Could be a nice concept justification for Rock immunity.
Since the definition of "Alpine" is "of or pertaining to mountains", it fits with the ice/snow/ski concepts that have been mentioned.
^ Does it say anything about floating rocks? D: The whole "Ski slope", "Alpine" thing sounds a little too gimmickly personally.
sorry for the formating of this post
There's been a lot of discussion on stats, but I think the next poll should be on Ability. The outcome of that vote will help give direction to everything else. Normally, I wouldn't think Ability would need to be decided so quickly. But, everyone agrees that type weaknesses are a major concern for this pokemon. Many discussions have centered around using the ability to address typing problems. As such, I think ability should be decided next. Cooper is coordinating this thing, so it's his call on the next poll.
Here's a rundown of the abilities I recall have been mentioned in this thread so far:
Name: Ice Shell
Description: A thick layer of ice protects the pokemon from damage.
Net Effect: Takes no damage from Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes
Name: "Ice-Type Flash Fire"
(no name was proposed, but the general idea has been mentioned a few times)
Description: Ice attacks are powered up when hit with an ice attack
Net Effect: Ice immunity and Ice attacks are boosted 1.5x when hit with Ice-type attacks
Description: Pokemon shakes constantly due to the cold
Net Effect: Automatic Rapid Spin-like effect (clears SR, Spikes, etc) when the pokemon is switched in
Name: Alpine Skier
Description: Expert in avoiding the hazards of rocky mountain terrain
Net Effect: Takes no damage from Rock-type attacks (including SR)
I might have missed some. I didn't go back through the entire thread. I won't discuss the pros or cons of these abilities. That's already been done quite a bit, and will begin in earnest if/when a poll is posted. This list is simply to aggregate some of the ideas discussed here, and to encourage Cooper to do a poll on ability next.
not so bad, at least not broken.
Immunity to rock? Yeah, broken.
The majority of the voters wanted an Ice/Bug and knew it had a 4x weakness. I think it should be accepted that most of the time this thing will be switching into 50% damage. No one has come up with anything that fixes the SR problem, and isn't completely broken.
Automatic Rapid Spin would turn this thing into a support poke, switching in whenever someone sets-up.
Immunity to rocks is just silly.
"Ice Shell" would be a little better if it was maybe reducing damage, but not nullifying it.
IMO something that prevents damage from SR is probably the best idea. Take a look at how often decent but 4x SR weak pokemon (Moltres, Scyther, Articuno, etc) are used - it really puts a damper on a pokemon's appeal. Rock immunity seems somewhat out of place, so I'd say that Magic Guard or an "Ice Shell" ability would be best. Ice-type Flash Fire (Cold Snap?), while a cool idea, would be best suited for other pokemon. I really dislike Shiver.
Also, why are people saying "Magic Guard? OMG broken!" on a pokemon whose stats and movepool haven't even been decided yet? If it gets magic guard as an ability, it's stats/movepool will have to be balanced with it's ability taken into consideration, that's all.
What's the criteria for determining what abilities should be in the poll and what should not be in the poll? I don't think every idea that is posted here should automatically be part of the poll. Someone could propose an ability called "Deity" that automatically faints every pokemon on the opposing team. That's ridiculous and should not even be an option. However, the line starts getting gray on some of these others. I personally originated the Shiver idea, but was swayed by arguments against it. If it is included in the poll, I would not vote for it. However, the idea did receive some support, even after the arguments against it were presented. I've also noticed the exact same idea discussed in posts on another thread:
I suspect the Shiver idea might receive some votes if included in the poll.
Any idea that has a legitimate chance of receiving a meaningful number of votes, should be included in the poll. Since there are not a lot of competing proposals, the ballot isn't exactly "crowded". If that's the case, perhaps all the proposals should be included on the poll. If some ideas receive little or no votes, so be it. In the current poll, "Special Wall" has received only 2 votes total. However, it's not "ridiculous" that it was included in the first place.
For those of you advocating that some of these ideas should be excluded from the poll, I ask this question: Do you really feel they are "ridiculous" and a waste of time and poll space OR are you afraid they might actually receive some votes or, (gasp!) -- win?
You refer to an ambiguous "all of us", but you really mean "all of us that are currently posting and actively discussing this issue". If you look at the poll, lots of people are voting that are not posting here. Based on posts, I would think "Special Sweeper" would win by a landslide. (btw, that's what I voted for). But the "silent majority" are obviously of a different opinion. Mixed Sweeper it is... even if it's almost impossible to pull-off without making a pokemon that is either broken or worthless.
But this isn't being decided by a group of expert judges. It is being decided by popular vote. If an active few attempt to control the options available to the "unwashed masses", then why are we holding a popular vote in the first place? Just make this a judging competition. Select a few well-credentialed judges and let them make a pokemon for us. But that defeats the whole purpose, now doesn't it?
I actually agree with you on most of your points. Your arguments have convinced me against some of my original opinions.
I had not thought about the impact Magic Guard would have if this pokemon is equipped with a Life Orb. I've never played a Clefable, so I'm really not familiar with it. Magic Guard seemed convenient to eliminate an unworkable SR weakness. After looking at the arguments against it, I no longer think Magic Guard is a good idea. I think with the right stats, it could be OK. But, there's no way this pokemon is going to be pegged as a "Mixed Sweeper" without some big attacking stats. People will give it big stats, without considering the full impact of MG and LO. Should Magic Guard be on the ballot? Definitely. I hope lurking Smogoners are wise enough to make a good choice, but it's not really my place to define "good". I get one vote, and that's all.
I think Ice Shell is a decent choice. I think it is a compromise on some of the more extreme proposals.
Even after the criticisms, I still like my Alpine Skier idea. If included in the poll, I will vote for it. It's not normal for an ability to convert a type weakness into an immunity, but it's not unprecedented. Weezing does it. However, I agree converting a 4x weakness into total immunity is quite drastic. I don't think it would yield a broken result. On that point, we'll have to just agree to disagree. If you think the reasoning behind Alpine Skier is a stretch, I can point to a boatload of examples of logical stretches behind existing moves and abilities. Pokemon is rife with them. For those that think the concept is silly or stupid, that's purely a matter of opinion that you are entitled to.
I enjoy participating in this kind of debate. I hope others that will vote on this stuff will read the discussion before casting their votes. But, we should not steer the ballot, in a vain effort to protect the majority from themselves. That's not exactly democratic, and would really contradict the purpose of the project.
If you want to seriously keep the impact of something like Ice shell to a minimum, you could have it simply "ignore" one layer of damage. So, for example if SR TSx2 Spikesx3 were on the ground, the pokemon would only register damage from Spikesx2 and TSx1. So, it would still take damage even from 2 layers of spikes, it would just have a "resistance", I guess, to them.
Also, TS regardless of layers would poison the pokemon.
Even though it wants to be useful outside of hail, I'll just throw out the possibility of Ice body and/or ice equivalents of chlorophyll/hydration.
A [minor] step towards balancing a "shiver" effect if chosen would be for it to clear both sides of the field and still take damage from the initial switch in. Still absurdly powerful, but slightly less so.
I know the ability "Shiver" have been buried long time ago but I been wondering, if said pokemon did had the power to blow away spikes upon switching but still took SR/Spike/TS damage. Most of you people are worried that he doesn't take SR damage and get rid of them no problem but if it took damage before blowing them away, does that change anything? Note, I'm not trying to give this ability to him personally but I kept on thinking about it long after it was lay to rest.
jimayus: nice idea
gothic togekiss: i dont think shiver can/will ever be balenced
Damn...kinda annoyed the fact everyone doesn't like the idea only become it get's an auto-spin ability. Are SR/TS/Spikes soo pericous to you expert battlers that the though of an auto-spin make you shit your pant? Meh...doesn't matter because mostly likely it's going to have Magic Guard and stat like this: 70/110/70/120/70/115 at which I'll lol.
I went with Mixed sweeper. Although it would have be nice to have known an ability for it first.
honestly, Cooper has been right on Magic Guard all along. Magic Guard + Life Orb plus Bug and Ice Stab will rip the metagame a new one. The only way this would be balanced was if it was a pure Special sweeper that could be walled indefinitely by Blissey (not likely, it would probably end up with Focus Blast then). So a don't think Magic Guard should be put up for a vote. Even this ended up with 95 / 95 Attacking Stats after we look at how powerful Life Orb + Magic Guard is, it will end up using Blizzard and Megahorn. Say hello to the first Pokemon with two 150 effective BP Stab moves. We all know that move BP is more important than the attack stat, so it would be pretty hard to balance the Magic Guard and Life Orb combo, without killing why we want this Pokemon.
I honestly think the best ability would be one that simply states "Does not take damage from Stealth Rock". It can still take 25% from Spikes and be Toxic'd by Toxic Spikes. It still has those horrendous 4x weaks to Rock and Fire. It can just switch in more than once now (if it takes any additional damage switching in on Stealth Rock, it will be killed on its second switch in). This allows us to be more conservative with the Base Stats, because it won't be an all or nothing gambit. And its not like this ability is broken, its no more broken than Levitate (EQ immunity + Spikes / Toxic Spikes immunity with no downsides).
If we decide not to make it immune to Stealth Rock, there are more existing abilities it can have. Snow Warning, Compoundeyes, and Serene Grace have all been mentioned. I would definitely add these to the poll, just so it looks balanced and has an even mixture of new : old abilities.
Just about all of the discussed abilities should be included in the vote. There is clearly interest in Magic Guard. We should not exclude it from the vote because we don't think Smogoners are capable of making a good decision. I like Eric's suggestion that the first post on the new poll should include some brief summary of the Pros and Cons of each ability that has been debated. Not all abilities need additional info. For example, Snow Warning should just be on the poll and have no further explanation. Magic Guard should summarize the LO and stat abuse potential. I don't think these cons should be listed like, "You are a total idiot if you vote for this." It should just contain the essentials of the downside arguments. After that, it's up to the individual judgment of each voter.
I forgot about Compound Eyes and Serene Grace. I added them to my "Ability Proposal List" post earlier, just in case Cooper uses it for reference.
I say that it should recieve Gravity as one of its moves. This would make it more usable. I mean, come on, what can use it now? Jirachi and Dusknoir? With the accuracy boost, it would really make a Blizzard Thunder combo a force that could destroy teams and give this thing some actually usablility with its crappy 4x weaks.
Obviously not. The fact that Ice/Bug won out and then everyone was like "oh shit, SR weakness :(" pretty much shows that.
Now people want some ridiculous ability like immunity to rock and stuff, or a 550+ poke with Magic Guard? Yeah I think it's apparent that people aren't capable of making good decisions.
Special sweeper is what I voted. Bug/Ice is a really bad typing already, x4 weak to fire and rock attacks, and don't forget the popular stealth rock. A tank / wall / support wouldn't be doing its job, so I rather have it a fast special sweeper, something like Yanmega.
In retrospect, yeah, Magic Guard would probably make LO the only good item on the pokemon (then there's the issues of it possibly not fitting in on an ice/bug), so some sort of "Ice Shell" ability that prevents SR (and possibly spikes/toxic spikes) damage would be best.
Of course, a pokemon can have more than one ability, so there's the option of throwing something else on as well to add versatility, which is where Compoundeyes, Ice-type Flash Fire, Serene Grace, or whatever else we've been thinking of can go in.