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CAP 1 Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Reflections, Opinions, and Closing

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Cooper, Jan 16, 2008.

?

Are You Satisfied with how the First "Create A Pokemon" Turned Out?

  1. Yeah, I felt it was handled really well

    147 vote(s)
    42.5%
  2. Well, it was alright, but a few changes need to be made

    106 vote(s)
    30.6%
  3. No, I hated it

    19 vote(s)
    5.5%
  4. I really liked it, but I think the pokemon is broken, so I'm going to be stupid and say no

    43 vote(s)
    12.4%
  5. "Create A Pokemon?"

    31 vote(s)
    9.0%
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  1. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    I patched the server and restarted it. The weird characters are fixed when you switch in a poke. They are now gender symbols like they are supposed to be.

    Also fixed Mountaineer. It was originally implemented as full Rock immunity for the first turn Syclant switched in. Even if it switched in "simultaneously" with an opponent. So, if a poke exploded and the next poke tried to use a rock move on the first turn against an opposing Syclant, Syclant would still be immune. Now, it is only immune if it switches into a opponent's attack.

    Keep reporting bugs and I'll keep fixing them.
  2. A$AP DARKY

    A$AP DARKY mfw i see alison brie
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    Ugh, eric the espeon, if you're going to edit the analysis, can you at least make sure you're using correct spelling, capitalization, and grammar?
  3. Rena22

    Rena22

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    Syclant shouldn't have got Tail Glow in the first place, IMO. It is a sub-exclusive move, and was not intended to be bred from one poke to another - this is mainly the reason why Illumise never got it. Also, explain why Phione doesn't get it but Manaphy does even though they have practically the same tail. And something that should really be noted is that Syclant doesn't even have a tail, it only has an abdomen.

    Anyway, here is my spin of the analysis:

    ---
    [SET]
    name: Tail Glow [Added HP in, fixed up grammar and some other stuff, removed Air Slash as Blizzard hits everything except for Heracross, Poliwrath and Surskit harder]
    move 1: Tail Glow
    move 2: Bug Buzz / Hidden Power Electric
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Blizzard
    item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
    ability: Compound Eyes
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 Satk / 4 Defense / 252 speed

    [SET COMMENTS]
    It has been debated if Tail Glow makes Syclant broken, if not it certainly makes it extremely powerful. This set will most likely sweep if it gets a Tail Glow up, not much can stop it and with 375 speed - few can revenge kill it.
    Blizzard destroys almost everything that doesn't resist it, after a Tail Glow.
    Bug Buzz ruins any chance of Cresselia and other Psychics walling you, even without Tail Glow. However, Bug Buzz doesn't provide much in the way of coverage, which is why Hidden Power Electric is an option over it. Hidden Power Electric allows it to hit a lot of Pokemon it couldn't previously do much to, most notably Tentacruel, Gyarados and hits bulky Waters harder than anything else.
    Focus blast is a reasonable chance to 2HKO Blissey after a Tail Glow, and is certain with Stealth Rock damage or if Blissey isn't holding Leftovers for some reason.
    air slash is another option that i have seen used


    [SET]
    name: Mixant [like last time I removed Air Slash, just fixed up grammar basically]
    move 1: Blizzard
    move 2: Bug Buzz
    move 3: Brick Break / Superpower
    move 4: Substitute / Earth Power
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Compound Eyes
    nature: Naive / Rash
    evs: 200 Atk/ 56 Satk / 252 Spd <or with Superpower less attack more sp. attack (working on evs)>

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Syclant has the ability to tear through many of the most common walls in D/P. Compound Eyes provided Syclant with an extremely high power 91% accurate STAB in the form of Blizzard. Brick Break deals with Blissey and will 2HKO 90% of the time. Bug buzz provides a strong STAB that deals with many opponents. Substitute can be used if you do not want to risk mispredicting, which will often force Syclant to switch out. It is also useful to absorb Thunder Waves from Blissey and Cresselia. If you do use Substitute than Superpower becomes an option over Brick Break as it can 2HKO Blissey with less EVs.

    If this set does not have sufficient Rapid Spin support, it will soon fall to passive damage. To combat this you can use Mountaineer over Compound Eyes, but only do this if you use an Abomasnow to set up hail, or you will have to switch to the weaker Ice Beam.


    [SET]
    name: SwordsSycle [If SpecsSycle, why not SwordsSycle? Made U-Turn an option over X-Scissor rather than Brick Break - two bug moves with only a 10 base power difference seems redundant]
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Ice Shard / Ice Punch
    move 3: X-Scissor / U-Turn
    move 4: Brick Break
    item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
    ability: Mountaineer
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This is a full physical version of Syclant. It's attack reaches astronomical levels after a Swords Dance. Ice Shard takes care of anything that thinks it can switch in on the Swords Dance and out speed for a KO, and works well on those few things that outspeed you. Ice Punch provides a more powerful Ice STAB, the difference between 40 and 75 base power will make a big difference and Syclant is fast anyway so ice punch is normaly better.

    Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, Stone edge, Night Slash or Shadow Claw could be used over Brick Break / U-Turn. Fire Fang dents Forretress, who would otherwise wall you, after a SD. Thunder Fang is your best bet against Gyarados. Stone Edge (or Rock Slide if you don’t like the poor accuracy and want to take advantage of the flinch chance) has great coverage and can OHKO some Pokemon you would otherwise have problems with after a Swords Dance. Night Slash or Shadow Claw can beat down Dusknoir. Superpower is not an option on this set as the attack drop conflicts with Sword Dance.


    [SET]
    name: SpecsSycle [Nothing changed here]
    move 1: Ice Beam / Blizzard
    move 2: Bug Buzz
    move 3: Superpower / Focus Blast
    move 4: Earth Power
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Mountaineer / Compound Eyes
    nature: Rash / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 Satk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This set has the ability to do massage damage to much of the OU metagame, provided you predict right, however it will be easy to wall once you are locked into an attack. If you run the low accuracy Blizzard and Focus Blast then use the Compound Eyes ability with heavy Rapid Spin support, as Syclant wants to have the ability to switch in and out freely with this set. If the high maintenance level with Compound Eyes is off-putting, use Ice Beam over Blizzard, and Superpower over Focus Blast to beat Blissey, with Mountaineer to dodge Stealth Rock.

    [Other Options] [Removed Earth Power as it is already solidly on the Specs set, so it doesn't need to be mentioned again. Added HP Grass and Air Slash]
    Stone Edge is a good option for dealing with the likes of Gyarados and Salamence. Thunder Fang will OHKO Gyarados and hurt bulky Waters, and the flinch chance goes nicely with the high speed, but more often than not Syclant will have better things to do. Hidden Power Grass can be used for Swampert, but that's were its usefulness ends. Air Slash can be for Heracross, but Blizzard will hit harder against everything else barring the uncommon Poliwrath and Surskit. Choice Scarf makes it a decent lead. Choice Band can be useful, but Syclant isn't built for repeated switch-ins, and most options available require Compoundeye's accuracy boost so it would have to take 50% damage from Stealth Rock, which isn't good.

    [EVs]
    Neutral Natured Syclant with max Atk and Life Orb is never guaranteed to 2HKO Blissey with Break Break, but 200 EVs provide a very reasonable chance and a guaranteed 2HKO with SR in play. With Superpower, you don't need any Attack investment to guarantee a 2HKO on Blissey. Any EVs leftover from your main form of offense should go into Speed. Always make sure that Syclant can survive two switch ins to SR if running Compound Eyes; it's HP value must always be odd.


    [Opinion]
    Syclant can tear through some of D/P's prestige walls, but is extremely high maintenance. Its typing is a mixed bag. It has two wonderful STABs for an offensive Poke, but is hindered by a horrible SR weakness. Mountaineer takes care of this, but leaves it using a weaker Ice STAB in the form of Ice Beam. If you can keep Syclant in good condition, it will be a great asset to your team.

    In order to survive, Syclant relies on its extremely powerful and accurate STAB moves and its impunity to Stealth Rock. Taking either one of these away will weaken it significantly. If it is running the Compound Eyes ability, an opponent that can use Stealth Rock and prevent them from being spun away will stop Syclant in its tracks. If Syclant is using Abomasnow's hail for 100% Accurate Blizzard then your own weather changer will hinder it.


    [Counters]
    Tentacruel is a good overall counter, resisting Syclant's common Ice/Bug/Fighting attack combo, but dies if Syclant is carrying Earth Power.
    Blissey is a good counter to the Specs set, but has to be wary of Superpower, and even Focus Blast will leave a dent.. Against the Mixed set, Blissey can come in on anything other than Brick Break and can OHKO Syclant with Flamethrower, or use a status move like Sing or Thunderwave.
    Priority moves, or Pokemon that out speed Syclant, can deal very heavy damage once they get in.
    A bulky Gyarados can come in on the majority of Syclant's movepool, save for Stone Edge, Thunder Fang and Hidden Power Electric. That same Gyarados Intimidates physical Syclant, and can take special hits with it's 95/100 defenses, along with resistances to Fighting, Bug, Ground, and a neutrality to ice, the most common of Syclant's attacks.
    Metagross is one of Syclants best counters as it can it with a STAB super effective priority move in Bullet Punch, and switch in on most attacks. though if it comes in on earth power it will not last long. Bronzong in that sense is also a counter, being bulky enough to take a hit and Gyro Ball is overkill.
    ---
  4. KoA

    KoA The very best...
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    I found Tail Glow to actually be not that excellent. Sure, it can have high reward, but you need a Sash just to pull one off and at that point, any priority attack/ sand will wipe you out. :(

    Bullet Punch Usage will greatly increase.
  5. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    I've been going through all the battle logs from today. Over 60 battles occurred today! Syclant's frailty seems to limit it from being too dominant. Lots of Syclants tried to stat-up today and got pounded as a result. There were some late game sweeps too, so Syclant is definitely something to fear. I'm looking foward to some warstories. I think Sunday is writing one tomorrow.

    I moved the server to a permanant machine. It still isn't showing up in the server list automatically. I've requested that it be listed on the permanent Shoddy list. Hopefully, Colin will add it soon. If anybody knows Colin, politely beg him to list our server quickly. I'm really getting sick of typing in the connection info. I'd also like to be able to see how many people are connected without logging in.

    I'm working on an .EXE wrapper for the sprite loader. If I'm successful, it should work for Windows and Mac users. Just run the file like every other program. I hope to complete that tomorrow.

    Otherwise, the first full day of Syclant testing has been very successful IMO! Lots of battles and good chats. Thanks to everyone who has signed in and helped test this thing out.
  6. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    I'm finishing off the warstory now doug :) Although I don't think it was the best display of SYclants power it was definatly a truthfull display of Compoundeyes and how much Residual damage racks up.
  7. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    After a several hours of digging, I discovered that my mods were built on an old version of Shoddy source code. I don't know how I got the old version, but I did. That explains some of the mysterious D/C's. It also explains why the server isn't listed. It probably explains why you can't use an existing team. I'm a little amazed it ran at all.

    I've ported all the changes to the new version. I'll do some new builds and tests tomorrow.
  8. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    Explains the lack of find tab. Weird that... :S
  9. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    sorry darkie. im not to good with those.

    umbrelarva can you add heatran to the counters list? it 4x resists both syclants STABS and can ko with a fire attack.
    maybe put HP electric over focus blast rarther than bug buzz?
    on the second set (mixant) can you put that earth power canot be used with superpower.
    on the forth set (SpecsSycle) ether remove superpower or add another option over earth power, as you cant use them together.
    i think U-turn should be over BB not x-sissor on swordsant you dont want to have to switch out if you have a SD and want to use your STAB.

    also great work DJD, and KoA hows the babe sprite going? i want to see it/use it in UU. (if i ever learn UU). nice warstory LS, mines comeing soonish.
  10. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    I'll do a big Analysis update later tonight.
  11. MegaMewtwo

    MegaMewtwo

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    Syclant can learn Earth Power (does it get Quake as well? I can't remamber) which I don't think Heatran would enjoy.
  12. KoA

    KoA The very best...
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    Yeah, you'd have to be positive that it's a Tail Glow Ant for Heatran to be a guaranteed counter. Even then, Focus Blast still hurts a ton.
  13. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    Heatran dies to Earth Power, Focus Blast and SuperPower / Brick Break unfortunatly.

    Doing analysis now.
  14. footballfanatic

    footballfanatic

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    I'm sure this has already been discussed/explained, but will Syclant ever be added to Ladder play?

    After extensive testing of course.
  15. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    Some peoples edits were very low quality indeed. Eric, I'm glaring at you right now TBH. Umbrelava on the other hand I would like to thanks for his high quality sugestions where necesary.

    [SET]
    name: Mixant
    move 1: Ice Beam
    move 2: Bug buzz
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Substitute / Tail Glow
    item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
    ability: Mountaineer
    nature: Naive / Rash
    evs: 200 Atk/ 56 Satk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Syclant has the ability to tear through many of the most common walls in D/P. Ice Beam is a great STAB in the OU Metagame which is the only one you will see Syclant playing in. Brick Break deals with Blissey and will 2HKO 90% of the time. Bug buzz provides a strong STAB that deals with many opponents. Substitute can be used if you do not want to risk mispredicting, which will often force Syclant to switch out. It is also useful to absorb Thunder Waves from Blissey and Cresselia. Focus Sash can be used to garuntee you get at least one Tail Glow in, but is best used with Weather support from Abomasnow.

    If you do use Substitute than Superpower becomes an option over Brick Break as it can 2HKO Blissey with less EVs, but it does not allow for repeated hits.


    [SET]
    name: Swords Ant
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Ice Shard / Ice Punch
    move 3: X-Scissor / U-Turn
    move 4: Brick Break / U-Turn
    item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
    ability: Mountaineer
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This is a full physical version of Syclant. It's attack reaches astronomical levels after a Swords Dance. Ice Shard takes care of anything that thinks it can switch in on the Swords Dance and out speed for a KO. Ice Punch provides a more reliable Ice STAB.

    Fire fang, Thunder fang, Stone edge, Night slash or Shadow claw could be used over Brick Break. Fire fang dents Forretress, who would otherwise wall you, after a SD. Thunder fang is your best bet against Gyarados. Stone edge (or Rock slide if you don’t like the poor accuracy and want to take advantage of the flinch chance) has great coverage and can 1HKO some Pokemon you would otherwise have problems with after a Swords Dance. Night slash or Shadow claw can beat down Dusknoir. Superpower is not an option on this set as the attack drop conflicts with Sword Dance.


    [SET]
    name: SpecsSycle
    move 1: Ice Beam / Blizzard
    move 2: Bug buzz
    move 3: Super Power / Focus Blast
    move 4: Earth Power
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Mountaineer / Compound Eyes
    nature: Rash / Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 Def / 252 Satk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This set has the ability to do massage damage to most of the OU metagame, provided you predict right. If you run the low accuracy Blizzard and Focus Blast then use the Compound Eyes ability with heavy Rapid Spin support, as Syclant wants to have the ability to switch in and out freely with this set. If you don't want such a high-maintenance Poke than run Mountaineer, Super Power and Ice beam allows you to still dent Blissey and also be immune to SR. Keep in mind that only Modest Nature and Focus Blast are able to 2HKO without SR.


    [Other Options]
    Stone Edge is a good option for dealing with the likes of Moltres and Articuno. Superpower is unable to 1HKO Blissey even with max Atk, so isn't of much note other than on the Choice Specs set, or to 2HKO with less EVs. Thunder Fang and Earth Power will 1HKO Gyarados and Heatran respectively, but don't be tempted to use them on anything that isn't 4x weak as unresisted STAB Blizzard or Bug buzz will usually do more. Most of the time its incredibly powereful STABs will cover it better than a single attack that hits Super Effective against a certain Poke. Choice Band is also an option if you don’t want to have to set up your Physical sweeper, but Syclant isn't build for repeated switch ins. Choice Scarf makes it a decent lead, but be sure to max the Atk stats as much as possible.


    [EVs]
    Neutral Natured Syclant with max Atk and Life Orb is never guaranteed to 2HKO Blissey with Break Break, but 200 EVs Provide a very reasonable chance and a guaranteed KO with SR in play. Any EVs Leftover from your main form of offence should go into Spd. Always make sure that Syclant can survive two switch ins to SR if running Compound Eyes. This means NEVER give it four Hp EVs. Either eight or none.


    [Opinion]
    Syclant can tear through some of D/P's prestige walls, but is extremely high maintenance. Its typing is a mixed bag. It has two wonderful STABs for an offensive Poke, but is hindered by a horrible SR weakness. Mountaineer takes care of this, but leaves it using a weaker STAB. If you can keep Syclant in good condition then it will be a great asset to your team.

    In order to survive, Syclant relies on its extremely powerful and accurate STAB moves and its impunity to Stealth Rock. Taking either one of these away will weaken it significantly. If it is running the Compound Eyes ability, an opponent that can use Stealth Rock and prevent them from being spun away will stop Syclant in its tracks. If Syclant is using Abomasnow's hail for 100% Acc Blizzard then your own weather changer will hinder it.


    [Counters]
    Metagross and not be KO'd by anything bar a boosted Earth Power, and can 1HKO in responce with Bullet Punch. Tentacruel is a good overall counter, but dies if Syclant is carrying Earth Power. Heatran can come in on the STABs and 1HKO if it's scarfed, but does not fare well against Brick Break of the previously mentioned Earth Power. Blissey is a good counter to the Spec set. Against the Mixant set, Blissey can come in on anything other than Brick Break and Substitute and can 1HKO Syclant with Flamethrower, or use a status move like Sing or Thunderwave. Priority moves, expecially Bullet Punch which Syclant is weak to, or Pokes that outspeed Syclant can deal very heavy damage once they get in.
  16. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    sorry, it was very rushed rushed. i will do better next time.

    I use a scarf heatran as a syclant counter, it outspeeds and kos with fire blast. most/almost all people use a STAB move first so it can switch in with ease.

    What about Bronzong as a counter? it resists blizzard and can take anything but a TG boosted bug buzz.

    Suicune, Milotic and some very bulky waters work well as a counters, though they are not the best. They resists blizzard and can take most other moves decently.

    Fast, or scarfed, fire types could work well as counters, if they avoid switching in on EP/FB.

    If it lacks mountineer haveing Stelth Rock up and forceing it to switch out often will often lead to it KOing its self.

    Steels that do not have a second type weak to bug or ice can switc in decently, however EP or FB will end them unless the are faster or carry a priority move.
  17. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    That's alright, just post your main points if you're in a hurry next time ^_^

    =^_^= (Cat)

    Bronzong is 2HKO by Bug Buzz, being a STAB this isn't a great counter.

    Heatran, while weak to Brick Break and Earth Power, is decent.

    Mountaineer is now the standard on all spreads as tbh it's easily the preferable choice.

    Just realised having U-turn as your only bug move on the SD set would be silly, so I moved it back the / Brick Break.
  18. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    LS what about bulky waters as counters?

    i realy think te Tail Glow and Mixed sets need diferent analysis. they play compleatly diferently, have diferent ev spreads, diferent moves.
    Pure tail Glow (without BB/Superpower) is walled by blissey, but takes everything else very well. Compoundeyes works fine on the pute tail glow set aswell it helps with FB and Blizzard, but rapid spin support is needed.

    this is the set:

    move 1: Tail Glow
    move 2: Bug Buzz
    move 3: Focus Blast / Hidden Power Electric
    move 4: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    item: Life Orb / Focus Sash
    ability: Compound Eyes / Mountineer
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 Satk / 4 Defense / 252 Speed

    i am sure you can write a better set comments then me, but i will if you dont want to.

    mixant should look something like this:

    [SET]
    name: Mixant
    move 1: Ice Beam
    move 2: Bug buzz / X-Sicssor
    move 3: Brick Break / Superpower
    move 4: Substitute / Earth power / More options? Taunt?
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Mountaineer
    nature: Naive / Rash
    evs: 200 Atk/ 56 Satk / 252 Spd or 4 Defence/252 sp. attack/252 speed (if it can 2ko bliss with Superpower)
  19. GengarCrysis92

    GengarCrysis92

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    Opinion: Add Expert Belt as an item option for MixAnt. That increases its longevity. After readins LS' warstory, Expert Belt would have worked very well there.
  20. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    GC92: EB only increses the power by 20%, and only if it his super efective, syclant does not have amazing covarage, and needs the power.

    maybe a mention in other options though?
  21. KoA

    KoA The very best...
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    Expert Belt is only a 10% increase in power actually.
  22. Fenikkusu

    Fenikkusu

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    expert belt is 20% increase on SE attacks.
  23. KoA

    KoA The very best...
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    Oh, I was under the impression it was only 10.
  24. GengarCrysis92

    GengarCrysis92

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    Anyway, even if you don't add it as an option, I will use it. It works better than LO, since the recoil will eventually kill it, as noted in LS' warstory. EB won't though.
  25. Cooper

    Cooper
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    Is someone could instruct me on how to do some damage calcs for Ant, I'd be interested in trying to create a more bulky Ant (crazy, I know). Also, I'm going to edit the server data into the first post in a minute or two.

    EDIT: Also, anyone who has a good warstory involving Syclant, please send me the raw text over PM. I'm going to compile the best in the e-mail to Nintendo, which is now a visible option. Note that you don't need to win the battle for it to be good; a good battle only needs to showcase Syclant in action. For example, in a recent battle I OHKOed Ant with a Critical Hit Suicune Surf as it was SDing. That is not a good battle. But if Ant succeeded in downing half your team before you got lucky with Sandveil hax, that is a good battle.
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