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Smogon's official stance on Platinum

Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by DougJustDoug, Sep 15, 2008.

  1. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    I'm getting hammered with requests about when Platinum changes will be implemented on the Shoddy server. I've seen similar issues with RMT's and people wanting to to update analyses in C&C. Heck, we are even getting questions about Platinum Move Tutor moves on the fakemon created in the CAP project!

    I think we need to make a widespread announcement about Platinum as it pertains to "recognition" within Smogon. We need to let everyone know when Platinum will be incorporated into Smogon. And, once announced, we need to tell everyone to stop asking about it.

    Personally, I think it is WAY too premature to seriously consider incorporating the Platinum stuff into the server and elsewhere. All the investigation surrounding Platinum is wonderful discussion; that should be our focus right now.
  2. Steelicks

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    i think that sort of stuff is worthy of discussion and debate, but yeah, far too soon for implementation. i'd wait till the US release for that, but thats my opinion
  3. Aldaron

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    I actually think everything should be implemented as soon as possible, pending confirmation by our staff.

    There is no reason to hold off implementation besides a fear of wrong information.

    The metagame will be altered (how drastically I do not know), and I think it would be nice to be able to see the effects ASAP.
  4. Havak

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    Yeah Doug, I agree. Though I'm undecided on what I'd prefer... (Agreeing with both Steelicks and Aldaron, somehow..)
  5. Mekkah

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    Not implementing stuff until it's 100% confirmed is my stance. Also, no editing analyses with sets/moves until they have been tested...which can only occur once the moves are confirmed, so yah.

    Also, we need to make clear what Platinum is going to change in regards to testing suspects.
  6. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    I'm fully with everyone on waiting for 100% confirmation, however once we have confirmation I see no reason to delay further. But I also think everything should be added all in one big go, rather than piece-by-piece which would result in the metagams(s) being "unstable" for a longer period of time.
  7. Stallion

    Stallion Joe Cool
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    Yeah I agree entirely with Sunday. I believe when we know everything for certain, that only then should we implement it. However, people will riot if they have to wait until the US release so my stance on this is as soon as it is humanly possible. Also I was going to make a thread about this but I thought here is as good a place to ask it, seeing as it is about Platinum. But seeing all those "Mark x" threads clutter Stark do get frustrating, even though they promote discussion. I was wondering whether a separate "Platinum discussion" subforum should be created until they die down? It seems practical to me but then again the moderating team may not see this necessary, so yeah I dunno.
  8. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    If you want to get stuff 100% confirmed, then just make a thread where people report which Move Tutors a pokemon learns. They've been doing a good job of getting this information without leadership, so if we can get a person to organize them at check every pokemon (including NFE's and alternate forms), Ot could be done in less than 2 days.
  9. Stallion

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    Thats a good idea Golbat. Actually, I reckon that you should lead this project (if you wish) seeing as you have been our primary researcher. I don't have the game as such so I can't do any of the actual research, but I can help with the organisational part to get people to do this if you want.
  10. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    I don't have the game either, I'm just compiling info that others put forth :p.

    But if we do this, I would like to ask that the topic be stickied in Stark until every pokemons Move Tutor moves are figured out.

    Edit: As a side note, Arty2 was going to be extracting this data from the rom. I don't know if these means we should wait for him to do it or not, but once that data is extracted and we figure out alternate forms and battling other cartridges, it could be implemented by then end of the week (I think)

    That is to say, either Arty2 gets the info in the next few days, or our diligent team of people with Platinum will have it done in 2 days.

    Edit 2: I've noticed some discrepancies between what people have posted:

    If no one has any objections (and I can get a stark Mod's approval) I would like to close the Mark 4 thread, open up a new thread and have it stickied. The Rules of the new thread will be

    "Only post in this topic if you have Platinum. Post one Pokemon per post. Be sure to include all moves that the pokemon learns, not just the notable ones."

    Edit 3:I've got the post written up and ready to go, I just need approval and the other thread to be locked.

    Edit 4: OK, so it turns out that the first post just wasn't updated yet (Dbolt had only gone to 2 out of three of the tutors) but I still think a more orginized thread is needed. Here are the rules I made to the thread i have ready to post

    RULES:
    1) Post 1-6 Pokemon moves per post.
    2) List ALL the moves the Pokemon learns. Not just the relevant ones.
    3) Make sure that all alternate form Pokemon are tested also.
    4) I will update this post as fast as possible, but always check the last few posts just to be sure your Pokemon has not already been tested.
    5) List ALL the moves the Pokemon learns. Not just the Relevant ones.
    6) DO NOT POST REQUESTING A POKEMON. WE WILL GET THEM ALL.
    7) List ALL the moves the Pokemon leans. Even Helping Hand and Snore.

    DIRECTIONS:
    1) Post the 1-6 Pokemon you plan on testing when you reach the first Move Tutor and start checking.
    2) Update however often you need (once per move tutor, once per pokemon per move tutor, ect.)
    3) Post DONE at the end of each post when you are finished in Bold, Big (Size=6) Capital letters.
    4) Make a new post to continue testing.
  11. Maniaclyrasist

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    Sounds all fine to me, the current Mark 4 Thread is really cluttered as is.

    I'd close it and sticky the new one if no one has any problems with that.
  12. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    K, I'm posting it right now
  13. Aldaron

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    I agree with the stance that we only implement stuff that is 100% confirmed by our staff.

    I do not agree (and I am not sure if this was the case), however, with simply waiting for an arbitrary period of time.

    What do we do, for example, with the current (staff confirmed) Pokemon who now have legal movesets in platinum that were not legal in DP? I am referring specifically to Ice Punch + Shadow Sneak Gallade. I want to use it on the ladder right now, but I am not sure if I am allowed to.

    I think we should implement the stuff as fast as possible once confirmed by the staff. I mean, even if we make a mistake somewhere, we can just change it.

    As for the new Pokemon, isn't information regarding their level moves, tms and move tutors 100% confirmed?

    Can we not have this implemented ASAP?

    It would be especially helpful to get the Sky Shaymin implemented ASAP along with the new Rotoms, just for giving additional time for tiering purposes.

    EDIT: BTW, I disagree completely with Sunday's idea of implementing piece by piece making the metagame "unstable."
  14. Lee

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    You do have an argument there. At the moment, WiFi is crawling with Pokemon such as that Gallade that have been legitimately obtained by trading to a Platinum version, tutoring and then trading back. It is Shoddy's duty to replicate that WiFi metagame but instead, Shoddy is getting left behind.

    If they're legal in the actual game (which they are at the moment), then it seems logical to allow them in the metagame.

    I still feel it's a little too early, as a lot of Platinum is still alien to us but there's no sense in waiting till US release; WiFi sure as hell isn't.
  15. Hipmonlee

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    All Platinum changes should be made at once, as soon as is convenient.

    That's basically all there is to it afaic.

    Have a nice day.
  16. Amazing Ampharos

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    I have been working on a mod file Shoddy Battle can use based on the research in the move tutor topic, and I was discussing with Colin how we're going to handle adding the new Pokemon (those new forms are new Pokemon as far as Shoddy Battle is going to be concerned). The current plan with them is to import some code that PT8Sceptile wrote for AAMS to add new Pokemon (I believe it's cleaner and more flexible than what CaP uses) which will handle everything but sprites. Bulbagarden has all of the sprites we need, and I think Colin is going to handle making Shoddy Battle recognize them easily. We're also going to fix some more errors in the original databases at that time which leaves me to wonder how many of those fixes smogon inherited when it set itself up; some of the older ones were pretty big (Swords Dance Tauros and Swampert if I recall!).

    In short, Colin and I have the technical end of this upgrade handled and, since everything made in conjunction with Shoddy Battle is free software, we're going to make sure smogon can adopt all changes easily. I would also personally suggest the smogon server's administration check the status of their databases and ensure they are current when upgrading to Platinum.
  17. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    There are a few tests remaining about game mechanics with the new formes that have to be tested still, (i.e. Some Rotom Forme tests). I've been collecting those questions, and finding people to get them answered. Once those questions are answered though then I think everything will be ready to be implemented by shoddy.

    Also, some of the questions have been answered by people on other forums, am I to assume that those count as being confirmed?

    Also, are we going to wait to know the moves from all of the move tutors for every pokemon, or just the main competitive ones and add the NFEs as they are figured out?
  18. Aldaron

    Aldaron indefatigable workhorse
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    What about my situation with Gallade? Am I allowed to use Ice Punch + Shadow Sneak now?

    I also wanted to use an Ice Punch + Super Power Azumarill, but I wasn't sure if we were currently playing DP or DPP.

    I assume if the stance is to "implement ASAP," then we are playing DPP now, without any implementation, so I can go ahead and use those sets, correct?
  19. Amazing Ampharos

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    As far as I'm concerned, the topic in Stark Mountain is fine for confirming movepools. It's a lot less sloppy than the original sources of the databases; I'll tell you that! If a mistake is found later, it can just be fixed.

    For now, I'm not adding any Pokemon from a family to the list I'm working on until we know about every other Pokemon in the family; cases like "Magby gets Uproar but Magmar and Magmortar do not" are around, and who can forget the complete randomness of Onix getting Psych Up but not Steelix last generation?

    That being said, I'll release an early version of the list that ignores NFEs with unknown data if there's a consensus we want to do that. It would be a shame to delay Platinum movepools by a week or more just because of some worthless Pokemon no one will use and the small possibility of them giving a probably worthless move to a slightly worthwhile Pokemon someone might use. Of course, it would seem incredibly premature to take action before at least all of the fully evolved Pokemon are taken care of! It seems we only have to wait on Plusle, Minun, Swalot, Wailord, Torkoal, Whiscash, Tropius, Walrein, Wormadam (all), Mothim, Vespiquen, Pachirisu, and Purugly; if we are lucky, that could happen today.

    Also, for the record, the purpose of Shoddy Battle is to simulate link battles, not WiFi. If the smogon server wants to do differently that's fine (and will be VERY easy to do based on our implementation), but the new Rotom, Giratina, and Shaymin forms are being added as standard Pokemon on the Official Server and in the standard Shoddy Battle package.
  20. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    I think that right now that it is all a matter of logistics. I think it would be unfair to use some pokemon with Platinum move combinations when we can't use all of them. Until the changes are added to the server, I would say we are only playing Diamond Pearl

    We may want changes implemented as soon as possible, but that doesn't mean in bits and pieces, which is what allowing platinum movesets is doing.

    (Oh, and Sunday was for adding all at once and Not piece by piece)

    Edit: Oh, and in Reply to AA, I'll mention that to my guys so that way we can get all the Final Forms finished today, but I would support adding the moves PROVIDED that the new Pokemon are added at the same time as well.

    Edit 2: ALL FINAL FORMS ARE DONE!
  21. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    The Smogon server runs the .db files from the standard Shoddy source distribution. The CAP server implements a batch update to the standard .db files.

    I'm not sure the last time I pulled new .db files from SourceForge, since I normally am focused on merging source code changes. Regardless, if the Platinum changes are incorporated into the repository, I will pull them down for Smogon and CAP. There's no reason to do the same work twice.

    AA mentioned something that has me a bit concerned -- Rotom forms. Since each form has a slightly different movepool, it is reasonable to assume that each Rotom form is a different pokemon for simulator battling purposes. However, each form has the same typing and stats, and the move differences are small (one move each). I'm not sure how the new Rotom moves will be used in competitive play. Here's the slight dilemma -- if many of the Rotom forms are essentially the same from a competitive battle standpoint, people might use any form based solely on sprite preference. This could cause headaches in calculating Rotom's usage for tiering purposes -- since each form would receive a small fraction of Rotom usage. Rotom is currently very high UU. I wonder if completely different forms will make Rotom usage statistics meaningless. I don't think we can combine the forms, since there are movepool differences and some of the moves could make a huge impact on Rotom play. This isn't a massive problem, but a tiering wrinkle that we have not faced with previous multi-form pokemon like Deoxys.

    This isn't an issue with Skymin, since the pokemon typing is completely different.

    I don't know about Giratina; I don't think it has any move changes, right? It's only a sprite change IIRC. Therefore Giratina, should probably remain a single Shoddy species. Correct me if I am wrong.
  22. Havak

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    Origin Giratina has the Offensive stats switched with regular Giratina's Defensive stats. So 120 base Atk and SpA for Origin, with 100 base Def and SpD, while the regular Giratina is the opposite. I know Origin can learn Outrage and a few other attacks, but I haven't checked its movepool out properly yet, so the regular Giratina could get all these new moves too. (Since you have to use an item to change forms, once the item is removed I doubt the new move would just disappear).

    I'd suggest just using all the Rotom's as different Pokémon for Tiering purposes. Even if it's just one extra move, once pople have decided which is the most useful that'll see more play. However, this could lead to the other forms dropping to a lower tier when in reality they can be just as good.

    But I'm assuming we'll have a Faux Tier to prevent this, so it's not much of a problem.
  23. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    They Both learn all the same moves via Level-Up and through Move Tutors, however, Origintina has to hold Platinum Orb and has a Sticky Hold type ability to prevent losing its item.

    And about the rotoms, they should be tiered diffrently
  24. Amazing Ampharos

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    All final forms are not done; Volbeat is a final form (I forgot him too when I listed them off... he's pretty forgettable). I know it's pretty worthless, but it would seem like a fundamentally bad idea to ignore a fully evolved Pokemon. Regardless though, I'll get that list ready, but we probably won't be ready to do any upgrading until tonight in any case. I don't want to promise anything because I can't speak for what Colin is going to do, but I'm optimistic that all servers can be playing Platinum this weekend.
  25. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    Ok, I got Volbeats moves, as well as fixxing Buterfree, and getting Vigoroth

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