1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Snorlax (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Erebyssial, Jan 13, 2011.

  1. Erebyssial

    Erebyssial

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    343
    [​IMG]
    Snorlax

    ----------------------------

    Status: all finished

    [Overview]

    <p>Although blessed with OU status across every previous generation, Snorlax now suffers from declining popularity in the face of the BW metagame. With new foes such as Conkeldurr, Ferrothorn, and a number of huge special threats, Snorlax struggles to make the same impact on the battlefield as he has in past generations. Despite these hindrances, nothing has taken away what Snorlax is renowned for: fantastic special bulk, high Attack, and a threatening movepool. This means Snorlax remains one of the best special tanks and Curse users in the game, while more modernized all-out offensive sets let him keep up with the big boys in such a fast paced metagame. Snorlax may not be as dominant or influential as he was in his glory days, but he's still a very solid Pokemon that you should always be on the lookout for.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Body Slam / Return
    move 2: Fire Punch / Crunch
    move 3: Earthquake / Crunch
    move 4: Pursuit
    item: Choice Band / Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 176 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With an often-overlooked 110 base Attack stat and fantastic bulk, Snorlax makes a formidable offensive tank. In a metagame as fast paced as BW, going the offensive route is one of the best ways for him to remain a relevant threat. Choice Band places emphasis on a hit-and-run style while abusing Pursuit to eliminate special attacking threats, whereas Leftovers takes a slightly more conservative approach.</p>

    <p>Body Slam and Return are obligatory STAB attacks; the former offers a nice paralysis chance to assist Snorlax's terrible Speed, while the latter sacrifices that bonus for extra firepower. Fire Punch, unlike last generation, is very important on Snorlax to avoid letting Ferrothorn set up Spikes or drain his HP with Leech Seed. Earthquake is the other recommended coverage attack to hit Tyranitar, Heatran, and Excadrill. Depending on the rest of your team, it may be worthwhile to replace either Fire Punch or Earthquake with Crunch to hit Ghost- and Psychic-types harder. Pursuit acts as a useful tool to trap and KO frail sweepers such as Latios, Gengar, and Starmie who will want to escape from Snorlax.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Besides maximizing offensive power, the EV spread also maintains Snorlax's special bulk while giving him enough physical bulk to survive powerful hits like Choice Band Tyranitar's Stone Edge. Pursuit can be replaced in favor of Crunch; this is a more viable option if running Leftovers, as Pursuit relies on Choice Band to achieve some important OHKOs.</p>

    <p>Snorlax is very vulnerable to powerful physical attackers, especially Fighting-types; as such, it's essential that Snorlax is paired with defensively inclined Pokemon that resist Fighting. Gliscor, Gyarados, and Reuniclus are perfect examples, as they can all switch into prominent Fighting-types such as Conkeldurr relatively safely. Bulky Ghost-types and Pokemon with amazing physical bulk such as Skarmory can also fulfill this role. Speaking of which, Skarmory can easily take advantage of Snorlax to set up Spikes; the same also applies to Ferrothorn and Forretress if Snorlax is locked into a move other than Fire Punch. To avoid this problem, support from a Rapid Spinner, Magnet Pull Magnezone, or a powerful wallbreaker can greatly aid Snorlax.</p>

    <p>If you opt for Return, or if Body Slam's paralysis rate is unappealing, additional paralysis support to bypass his low Speed can make offensive Snorlax much more threatening. It makes Pokemon who could otherwise switch in and outspeed Snorlax suffer a possible 2HKO. Snorlax also pairs well with Pokemon who appreciate opposing threats trapped and eliminated with Pursuit; for example, Hydreigon, Breloom, and Infernape will have a much easier time ripping holes in teams without the risk of being revenge killed by Latios, Starmie, or Gengar.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Curse
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Return / Body Slam
    move 3: Fire Punch / Earthquake / Crunch
    move 4: Rest / Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Careful
    evs: 188 HP / 104 Def / 216 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Curse Snorlax is a very familiar face, and for good reason. With pitiful Speed, high Attack, and wonderful special bulk, Snorlax possesses the perfect qualities to take advantage of Curse. The basic concept hasn't changed from previous generations; by switching in on weak defensive Pokemon or special attackers, Snorlax can use the opportunity afforded by a switch to set up a Curse to further bolster his Defense and Attack in order to sweep.</p>

    <p>Body Slam is slightly less effective here due to the fact that even moderately slow Pokemon will outspeed Snorlax if he has a Curse or two under his belt, even if they're paralyzed. Unfortunately, no matter which coverage move is used, there will be certain Pokemon that wall this set, so the choice is dependant on your team. Fire Punch melts Steel-types (most importantly, Ferrothorn), but leaves Snorlax walled by Jellicent and Chandelure. Earthquake also hammers most Steel-types as well as Tyranitar and Heatran, but means Skarmory and Gengar can switch in with impunity. Crunch, finally, destroys Ghost-types but makes Snorlax vulnerable to almost every Steel-type. Rest helps accumulate Curse boosts and stall out would-be counters, but it can be replaced by Earthquake for much better coverage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread remains the same as its DPP counterpart, maximizing Snorlax's enormous special bulk while patching up its weaker Defense stat with some leftover EVs. Alternatively, 252 HP / 4 Defense / 252 Special Defense can be run to focus entirely on tanking blows from powerful special attackers.</p>

    <p>Even with an improved Defense stat after Curse, Fighting-types are still a huge pain in the neck for Snorlax. Gyarados, Gliscor, and Jellicent are among some excellent teammate considerations to sponge these Fighting-type attacks. Skarmory also synergizes fantastically with Snorlax thanks to its gigantic physical bulk, Roost, and the ability to aid Curse sweeps with Spikes support. If you opt for Rest, cleric support from the likes of Heal Bell Celebi is helpful, as Snorlax doesn't want to end up in an endless coma due to the new sleep mechanics. Chesto Berry is another option to avoid this problem, although the loss of longevity without Leftovers is rather discouraging.</p>

    <p>Snorlax will also want specific teammates depending on the holes in its coverage. If Steel-types are an issue, especially Skarmory and Ferrothorn, Magnezone is an obvious choice to trap and remove them. Likewise, a Pursuit user can get rid of Gengar and Chandelure if Snorlax lacks Crunch or Earthquake, respectively. Toxic Spikes are valuable to help stall out Pokemon like Jellicent, Hippowdon, and Whimsicott who otherwise give Snorlax major headaches. Tentacruel and Forretress are great candidates for this; Tentacruel provides a nice resistance to Fighting, while Forretress offers immense physical bulk and the ability to employ other entry hazards if need be.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A Rest + Sleep Talk set is certainly viable (as it has been in previous generations), concentrating on walling specially-orientated sweepers and racking up entry hazard damage with Whirlwind. However, it's not quite as effective as it used to be, because of the new sleep mechanics which reset the sleep counter when Snorlax switches out, and the introduction of more special attacking powerhouses in the BW metagame. Yawn is worth mentioning as Snorlax's only sleep move, as well as an alternative to Whirlwind for phazing. This could find use on offensive sets to scare away counters as they switch in. Immunity may replace Thick Fat, but it is inferior for the most part unless Snorlax doesn't have Rest or your team is rather susceptible to Toxic stalling.</p>

    <p>Snorlax has quite a robust physical movepool, including ThunderPunch, Ice Punch, Superpower, Focus Punch, Seed Bomb, Outrage, and Wild Charge. These moves are, however, generally inferior to the attacks listed in the above mentioned sets, being outclassed in power and coverage except against a few very specific targets. Selfdestruct, like Explosion, received an unfortunate nerf this generation and no longer cuts the opponents Defense stat in half, essentially halving its power and hampering its use to Snorlax. Smack Down, while somewhat gimmicky, is an interesting option allowing Snorlax to hit Pokemon like Skarmory with Earthquake instead of the weaker Fire Punch.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Fighting-types are the best answer to Snorlax. Conkeldurr and Scrafty, with access to Bulk Up, can negate Snorlax's Curse boosts and hit back hard with Drain Punch to replenish health. Machamp can also ruin Snorlax's day, not caring about Curse boosts thanks to his frustrating 100% accurate DynamicPunch and its confusion rate. Breloom can put Snorlax to sleep with Spore, drain his health with Leech Seed, or threaten him with Substitute + Focus Punch. Lucario, Terrakion, and Infernape can destroy Snorlax with Close Combat, or set up a Swords Dance on the predicted switch out. Throh, while uncommon, has a great Defense stat, and Mountain Storm lets him break through Snorlax with ease. Apart from Fighting-types, the usual mighty physical attackers in OU like Tyranitar, Scizor, Metagross, and the very powerful Dragon-types can muscle their way through Snorlax, especially with an increased Attack stat by virtue of Choice Band or Swords Dance.</p>

    <p>There are also plenty of ways to counter Snorlax from a defensive perspective. Hippowdon and Skarmory cannot be 2HKOed by any of Snorlax's Choice Band-boosted attacks, can phaze him with Roar or Whirlwind, respectively, and both have access to instant recovery. Ferrothorn, like Skarmory, can use Snorlax to lay down Spikes, although he must watch out for Fire Punch; additionally, he can cripple Snorlax with Leech Seed to help stall him out. Bulky Ghost-types such as Jelllicent and Cofagrigus can outspeed Snorlax and proceed to cut his attack with Will-O-Wisp, thus preventing him from causing any significant damage with Crunch. Taunt and Encore users such as Gliscor and Whimsicott, respectively, are excellent at messing up Snorlax's plans of using Curse.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Snorlax receives Gluttony as his Dream World ability. However, Gluttony is difficult to take advantage of on such a slow Pokemon, and Snorlax generally does not want to forgo the use of Leftovers or his other two great abilities.</p>
  2. Erebyssial

    Erebyssial

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    343
  3. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    Restalk has slashitis going on. Body Slam is the main normal-typed attack; Return (and also Double-Edge) are AC candidates, because the power usually isn't worth wrecking sweepers. Crunch could be slashed with Whirlwind or just consigned to AC; with Rotom forms no longer ghost-typed, the only OU ghost you're likely to want to counter is Gengar and Gengar always runs either Focus Blast or Pain Split (or both), making restalk Lax a shaky counter at best.

    The final result is something like this:
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Body Slam / Return (?)
    - Whirlwind / Crunch (?)

    Monoattacking Crunch is a lousy plan since the Three Musketeers already see Snorlax as a switch-in opportunity.

    Speaking of which, Terakion, Roopushin, and Zuruzukin are all hard counters, since they can switch into anything but rarely-used coverage moves and set up in Snorlax's face. All fighting types are an issue, but it's possible to maim many fighting types on the switch.
  4. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    Snorlax is a better mixed wall than pure special wall. This set is scared shitless of physical attacks. Go with 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD, Careful. It is pretty much impossible to kill without fighting pokemon.
  5. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,507
    I'm really interested in looking into a Last Resort set. It's a 210 BP attack after STAB now which is amazing. I think it's highly viable as a normal alternative on the Curse set with Fire Punch. Curse, Rest, Fire Punch and then Last Resort spam.
  6. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,269
    That's a pretty terrible idea. Being forced to use 3 other moves before you use your STAB really, really hurts you, especially if they use a phazer that isn't weak to fire like Vaporeon, Suicune, or Swampert.
  7. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,132
    Snorlax is too slow to use the move. With that in mind, using its other three moves first without being forced out (or killed) is extremely difficult.

    Last Resort is much more suited to faster Pokemon obviously.

    You can just run with less than 4 moves of course, but who'd do that with Snorlax?
  8. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,154
    I guess this is the best Snorlax can do, quite a shame since I don't think he'll be used in the standard metagame.

    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 1/3
    Good job
  9. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,106
    I'm questioning whether or not Curse should be the first set listed in such a physical / offensive metagame. Between SD Terakion, Excadrill, Landorus, Garchomp, Trick, Conkeldurr, Blaziken, etc, Snorlax is having a hard time setting up even as the last pokemon. I think either the ResTalk or, more likely, the offensive Lax set should be first.
  10. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    596
    Ah Snorlax, I've cornered many foes with it in the 4th generation using a custom set.
    My custom set uses Last Resort!
    Show Hide
    name: Dude, why do you use that?
    move 1: Last Resort
    move 2: Belly Drum
    move 3: Stockpile
    move 4: Rest
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Careful
    evs: 208 HP / 252 Def / 48 SpD
    ivs: 31 HP
    Yes, I'm fully aware that this is an idiotic idea (despite the fact that I use it) so don't even think of using this unless you're a mad man...or are extremely awesome at luring out Ghost types, Taunt users, stat upper users and Trick users. Please don't include this set in the analysis but do mention why certain moves shouldn't be used.

    Analysis wise, with all the new flare, I doubt Snorlax in general is going to go far. Might want to include some reasons for the choices but all and all, it looks fine.
  11. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,729
    Curse Snorlax shouldn't be listed first. With Pokemon like Terakion, Blaziken, Birijion, and Roobushin all over the place, Snorlax can no longer afford to boost up with Curse, since it will most likely come face to face with one of the aforementioned Pokemon, forcing it to switch out. I'd say list the 'Offensive' set first; it's the best thing Snorlax can do this generation. Then make the Curse set second.

    There are quite a few changes you should make with regards to the Offensive set, though. Make it look like this:

    Offensive (open)

    name: Offensive
    move 1: Body Slam / Return
    move 2: Fire Punch / Earthquake
    move 3: Earthquake / Crunch
    move 4: Pursuit
    item: Choice Band / Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD


    • Selfdestruct is no longer slashed. Selfdestruct no longer halves the defense of your opponent, and as such, it's no longer that appealing. Pursuit is now the main slash in the final moveslot - it's good for Pursuiting threats like Latios and Gengar.
    • Fire Punch gets the first slash over Earthquake in the second slot. Fire Punch is better this generation due to the advent and popularity of Natorei. Heatran is much less common now, so Fire Punch is the better option for hitting these Steel-types. Fire Punch still retains the super effective hit on most Steels anyway.
    I'd say remove the RestTalk set as well. While sleeping, Snorlax is set-up fodder for a hoard of things. These include Natorei, Skarmory, Scizor, Terakion, Blaziken, Birijion, Roobushin, the list goes on. If you're forced to switch, Snorlax essentially becomes useless for the entirety of a match thanks to the new sleep mechanics.

    Now, back to the Curse set: there are a lot of unnecessary slashes. Change it to this:

    Curse (open)

    name: Curse
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Body Slam / Return
    move 3: Fire Punch / Earthquake / Crunch
    move 4: Rest / Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Careful
    evs: 188 HP / 104 Def / 216 SpD


    • Crunch shouldn't be slashed with anything; it lets you touch Burungeru (even though it's likely going to Will-O-Wisp and Taunt you). I talked this over with Delta and we agreed that Crunch can just be slashed as he mentioned in his post.
    • I removed Rest as an option. Again, if you're resting, you become set up fodder, and if you switch, Snorlax becomes useless due to the new sleep mechanics. Talked this over with Delta and Rest can be an option in the last slot for healing off Toxic damage and whatnot.
    • Fire Punch is now the main option over EQ. It lets you beat Natorei and other Steel-types like Scizor. Earthquake is less necessary since Heatran isn't as common, etc. Earthquake does give you the ability to hit Tyranitar, though, so I made it the second slash.
    • Use the same EV spread as Gen 4 like Delta said a few posts down: 188 HP / 104 Def / 216 SpD.
    Make these changes and you have my approval.
  12. Eos

    Eos kiss me under the light of a thousand stars
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    743
    I completely agree with Bloo ^
    just quite frankly way too many slashes. with the changes that Bloo has suggested, this QC will definitely be approved and for the correct reasons.
    Otherwise, good job with this
  13. Erebyssial

    Erebyssial

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    343
    Thanks PK, and made your changes Bloo. I do disagree that Crunch is that necessary for Curse though, because if Jellicent does have WoW it's going to stall you out regardless. I think it's perfectly fine to replace it with EQ depending on preferance (for things like TTar as you said), would it be fine to mention that in AC instead then if not slashed?

    Also made a rush update for the new format but I'll clean that up later
  14. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    RestTalk Shuffler is still very good. I tested it the other day. Snorlax is still one of the bulkiest motherfuckers in the game.
  15. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,987
    Possibly on the offensive set, add in the additional comments and option over pursuit. If you have another pursuiter or have no problem with psychic/ghost types, in which case pursuit is a wasted move. Maybe crunch or earthquake, depending on what you already have.
  16. Erebyssial

    Erebyssial

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    343
    I used it a while back, it's definitely still effective but it's kinda hit or miss with the new sleep mechanics. If your opponent has a Fighting-type or something it's hard for Snorlax to get a wake up. I don't really mind whether or not it gets a place on-site or not.

    @above - yeah I forgot about that, thanks I'll add a note in AC.
  17. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 10 Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,240
    I've used Snorlax pretty extensively in Gen IV and I'm hoping he can still be equally as good this generation, First off, I want to suggest a different EV spread for the first set. 40 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 176 SpDef provides more physical defense to take things like CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge, while still having great special bulk. Also, the second moveslot should be Fire Punch / Crunch, and the third should be Earthquake / Crunch. The only thing that Crunch really hits is Jellicant (and only on the switch), and Gengar to an extent, although Fire Punch 2HKOs him.

    For the Curse set, Bloo and I agreed that Rest should actually be there. Use the same EV spread that was standard last generation (188 HP / 104 Def / 216 SpD, Careful) since it still works and there's no reason to not patch up Snorlax's poorer Defense stat. Also the moveset should look like this

    -Curse
    -Body Slam / Return
    -Fire Punch / Earthquake / Crunch
    -Rest / Earthquake

    Make these changes and you have my approval. (For the record Bloo and I talked this over and we agreed that these changes were acceptable)
  18. masterful

    masterful

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,897
    You should slash in Rest on the 4th slot of the curse set, as it allows Snorlax to stall out many attacks and avoid being Toxiced to death as the last pokemon.
  19. Erebyssial

    Erebyssial

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    343
    Alright I believe I've made those changes, thanks Delta. Just need Bloo's stamp and this is 3/3, but I'll begin writing it up.
  20. Iconic

    Iconic
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,888
    im better than bloo! nice work

    QC Approved 3/3
  21. breastfly_issun

    breastfly_issun

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2011
    Messages:
    3
    Would this set work?
    Name: Bursting Belly
    Move 1: Belly Drum
    Move 2: Gyro Ball/ Earthquake
    Move 3: Return/ Last Resort
    Move 4: Rock Slide/ Fire Punch/ Selfdestruct
    Item: Ganlon Berry/ Leftovers/ Life Orb
    Ability: Gluttony/ Thick Fat
    Brave Nature
    252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 SpD; 0 Spd IV

    After Trick Room is set up, find a way to get Snorlax in and Belly Drum up. Gyro Ball works well off the low speed- which can bottom out at 58- or you can opt for the omni-present and reliable Earthquake. For STAB, there's old reliable in the form of Return, or the riskier but more powerful Last Resort (which I'm only including because I saw it mentioned in another comment.) The last slot can get a reliable hit with Rock Slide on fire- and flying-types should you opt for Gyro Ball over Earthquake, do the same with steel-types via Fire Punch, or give you an ace-in-the-hole with Selfdestruct. Ganlon Berry works well on non-Selfdestruct sets, and goes together wondrously with Belly Drum and Wish support. Leftovers is a slightly safer option that does not require outside recovery support. Life Orb works well in tandem with Selfdestruct to give it an extra kick while only sacraficing soon-to-be-gone-anyway HP.

    Does this work at all? I love Snorlax, and am trying to think of creative ways for him to be used more effectively in 5th Gen play.
  22. Erebyssial

    Erebyssial

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    343
    Snorlax has no business using Belly Drum, it just can't find time to set it up safely. Those move and item choices are also quite odd, I guess you could try something like Sub + Custap if you really want Belly Drum to work, but even then..

    Anyway I've finished the write-up and it's all ready for gp checks.
  23. sergyanime

    sergyanime

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    8
    This is the set I'm running on pokemon online and it is working rather well.
    I'm running immunity because it's surprising how many toxic switch in's you get onto snorlax trying to deal with it setting up curses.
  24. EricaHartmann

    EricaHartmann

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    103
    Spotted a couple of minor grammar errors.

    Show Hide


    Also should Throh be mentioned under the 'Counters and Checks' section since Mountain Storm always crits, bypassing Curses.
  25. Erebyssial

    Erebyssial

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    343
    Yeah Throh's uncommon, but since it's almost the perfect counter, I added a small sentence. Added your minor changes too, thanks for checking.

    edit: actually, is "worth while" meant to be one word?

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)