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Gen 2 Snorlax ought to be nixed. No, I'm serious.

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jorgen, May 14, 2013.

  1. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    @ Shiruba, do you even play or are you just saying vacuous statements that can apply to any banning discussion

    I will admit, I am very new to GSC, but so far it just seems like a very good pokemon that can turn into a monster given the right situation. I hate to make comparisons to later gens, but to me it seems almost like the Tyranitar or Politoed of later generations, found on almost all good teams as a solid glue, but in this case it has a bite to it as well. Perhaps I am playing bad people, but I often find I am able to kill it off eventually with Raikou + spikes or luck, as they use it as their sole Raikou counter.

    If I was to advocate any ban it would be the suggested lovely kiss + lax ban, as with a little solid play, it can cripple whatever its counter was and proceed to sweep outright.

    again, I am very new at this, so take anything I say with a grain of salt
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Nah your method of killing it is relatively normal. Normally people will have a little more to combat Electrics (such as their own Raikou or Ground-types), but Snorlax is best damaged by Spikes and Thunders on the switch.

    Honestly I find LK Lax to not be particularly bad to deal with. He usually gives up coverage for LK, which makes him pretty easy to wall if you have a Ghost or two Normal resists. Guaranteed relevant sleep is kind of annoying, though, and against your standard stall team he owns.
  3. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Basically the issue with Snorlax is twofold.

    1) It walls all non-setup specials without being really exploitable.

    2) If not walled or killed (and no one thing in OU can fully wall all Lax sets - Lugia does if Sleep Clause has been activated) it wins (not necessarily in a direct sweep, but over a few attempts).

    As such, any "safe" team has to devote at least two slots to Snorlax - one slot to have it, and at least one slot to do something about it. Any team that plans on being at all reactive needs three (Machamp will always defeat Snorlax if switched in at the same time, but it can't reliably counter Lax). That's a very, very centralised metagame.

    What does LK Lax get past that another Lax couldn't? You're usually giving up a coverage move to put LK on there, so if they've got Tyranitar/Rhydon + Skarmory (necessary to wall all non-LK Laxen anyway) then you sleep one and get walled by the other.

    The exception is the legendary LK QuakeDrumLax, which wins if safely passed Agility. Only gets one shot at it, though.
  4. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Snorlax is the single greatest culprit for GSC's stally nature.
    It forces every team to run at least 2 checks, one for CurseLax and one for DrumLax.
    Said checks are for the most part hyper-defensive pokemon such as Skarmory, Growl Miltank and Charm Umbreon.

    The few "offensive" checks, such as Zapdos, are forced to run RestTalk and even the inaccurate Thunder over Thunderbolt to "reliably" deal with Snorlax.

    Let me say this again: what could work as an offensive pokemon has to run an inaccurate attack as well as RestTalk to be effective in a metagame with Snorlax.
    Were you planning to sweep with Agility or hit physically frail pokemon with Drill Peck like in RBY? Lol no.

    Not even Blissey stops special attackers as badly as Snorlax does. Jynx can put her to sleep or be 2HKO'd by surprise DynamichPunches. Sure they're far from reliable options, but in Snorlax's case they're not just unreliable, they're useless.
    The only true special sweeper in GSC is Vaporeon and that's only because it can beat Snorlax one-on-one.

    So, in short, the negative effects Snorlax has on the metagame are:

    • makes every single special sweeper except Vaporeon unviable
    • forces certain pokemon to run inaccurate attacks such as Thunder and Cross Chop
    • forces teams to carry at least 2 checks
    • makes incredibly obnoxious moves with tons of PP such as Growl and Charm a relatively common sight in OU
    • forces pokemon who could run an offensive mixed set such as Zapdos run a RestTalk one instead
    • Forces most teams to run a ghost type to absorb the obvious attempts to use Explosion against Snorlax, thus making most players think twice before using that move
    I doubt GSC Snorlax will ever be banned for the exact same reason SR won't be banned from BW: people dislike change. Honestly I can't see a rational reason to keep such an overwhelming and overcentralizing force that makes the already most hated metagame even worse.
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Zapdos can't get past Blissey with Drill Peck unless it's also running Curse, and it's obviously never going to kill it with a special move.
  6. meteor64

    meteor64

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    Why are you ignoring rhydon, ttar, misdreavus, gengar, and steelix

    1- Zapdos works with tbolt fine, thunder is merely preferable
    2- Zapdos does not check lax lol, it baits it into taking damage it doesn't want to take


    With base 100 speed and hidden power you arent going to be using those moves any time soon in any gsc metagame, let alone a laxless one- what do you want to outspeed, raikou?

    All youre establishing here is Lax is better than Blissey, which we all know
    Yes, lets forget Raikou is also a very good special wall shall we


    because machamp won't be using cross chop in a laxless meta?

    this has already been discussed to death in this thread, 2 checks for one pokemon isnt too much to deal with in such a constricted metagame

    thats hardly a rationalised argument, just because a move is annoying doesn't mean its wrong to be using it

    again, why would this change in a laxless meta, drill peck is not even that good, youre still doing nothing to blissey, steelix and raikou who would be its primary checks. rest-talk would be superior with or without lax


    most teams use ghosts to block rapid spin



    I'm not dissecting your post to victimise you, but with a post this onesided no-one is going to take you seriously.

  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Probably because none of them (except steelix, sorta) work against the common EQ CurseLax.

    You mean it walls Zapdos. It doesn't handle Growtheons very well - it risks death coming into Espeon even at full health because +1 Espeon can 2HKO (46-54% with Psychic) while it can't 2HKO back even with Thunder.

    Growl is like the #1 example of a bad move, though, because it's totally passive, can be switched out of, and specials don't even care about it. PP-stalling Curse users is literally the only thing it can do.

    Steelix dies to HP Water, lol. And if you're using Drill Peck, you would be using HP Water alongside it since Grasses already die to Drill Peck.
  8. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Your 2 Snorlax checks are usually for Fire Blast Lax and EQ Lax, not Curse and Drum. Also it's Curselax that forces passivity, Drumlax actually punishes it.
  9. meteor64

    meteor64

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    The whole point of running multiple lax checks is so you can check all its sets. Not considering FBlax, 4 attacks, CurseDrum, etc when trying to check it is suicidal.




    I mean it walls starmie, gengar (until it explodes) and zapdos. As far as growth espeongoes, its not like its super common anyway and its checkable offensively through ttar, with skarm and lix checking non hp fire variants, and starmie beats any variant without bite,so its not like youre short of options anyway.


    if a move is bad then it isnt useful. while its application is limited its still the most useful option for letting miltankdeal with cursers. its similar to how ingrain is a "bad" move, yet we ban it on advsmeargle because on smeargle its actually really really good. a move is not simply defined as "good" or "bad" unless that pokemon has superior alternatives- you dont run bubblebeam on pokemon that have surf, for example. theres far more to what makes a move useful than what it actually does, the context its used in is equally as important.



    Fair point, but it still doesnt solve the Kou/Bliss issue. Andat the least you can use Lix to play mind games by pivoting on tbolts.
    Also should add that Jolteon also checks Zap, and a Zap without Sleep Talk is moreopen to Nido's LK and only 3HKOs him with HP.
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Sure. I'm just saying that you do need one of the things he mentioned in order to Not Die to EQ CurseLax.

    True, though I think of the former pair as roleplayers more than as real threats.

    Part of the reason for that is Snorlax, you realise.

    Espeon will usually use HP Water or Zap Cannon if it wants a second attack, not HP Fire.

    Starmie is OHKOed by Espeon's +1 Zap Cannon and 3HKOs at best with Surf (ie not till Espeon's out of Morning Sun). It also can't phaze, so Espeon can just rack up a few boosts and pass to an Electric.

    Espy does have to choose between hitting Ttar/Lix, Skarm/Starm, or passing, but it's still pretty darned good with instant recovery and I suspect that those things would be pretty popular as a result.

    Ingrain stops Roar, that's hardly "bad".

    It's Growl, for crying out loud. Against special attackers, it's useless. Against physical attackers that don't set up, it's pretty useless because they'll just switch between two of them. Against physical attackers with Swords Dance, it's worse than useless. Against physical attackers with Curse, it just forces a deadlock - which is only to the Growler's advantage because of the threat of PP stall. PP-stalling is boring and passive (and this is coming from someone who regularly threatens and/or executes 100-turn PP stalls in RBY). Ergo, Growl is boring and passive, or it's useless. Either way, it's not something that gets used when you have better options available - and for most Cursers there is one, known as "hit them on the special side".

    All of this is true.
  11. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Whatever this disagreement is about, it's way too tangential for me to follow.

    A lot of the stuff about Espeon is wrong, though. Namely Zap Cannon being an ideal coverage move (the main purpose of Hidden Power is to yell "surprise!" when RoarTar switches in to counter you thinking you're BP, so go for a SE Hidden Power) and Starmie beating Espy without (lol) Bite (it's hardly that cut-and-dry, and while Starmie makes Espy's life really tough, it can lose if it has to switch into a Growth, and of course it can't stop BP, which is Espeon's main set).
  12. meteor64

    meteor64

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    It stops you switching, thats terrible for the most part. If it only stopped phazing it'd be way more popular.

    And yet you see more far growltanks than cursetanks. You can shout about all the reasons why growl is such a stupid and bad move (being boring doesn't count), but on that one pokemon it seems to be the superior option, and you can't really dispute that. It doesn't really matter that Roar or something would be better because it doesnt get them, it gets Growl. Its like saying "eurgh, its stupid rby persian has bubblebeam, surf is so much better" when it doesn't even get surf.
  13. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Yeah, HP Water's better. Paralysis is still nice, though.
  14. Borat

    Borat

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    Growl is not only for pp stalling cursers. It functions as a phazing move by neutralizing all physical attackers. This sets up aggressive switches (i.e. raikou into ttar); it also eases prediction even against sword dancers (which in GSC, is just marowak). A -1 marowak is pretty much either going to swords dance or earthquake, which makes that egg switch much easier to predict. Sorry, but growl isn't your in-game first-to-forget move.

    In any case, I agree with Jorgen, I'm totally not following what you guys are arguing. You guys call "snorlax checks" as if they're exclusively run for snorlax. That's hardly the case. They're general checks that also happen to check one of snorlaxes sets. That's all. That's why you don't see haze-reflect dragonite. You see skarm, steelix, gengar/missy, ttar, rhydon, miltank, umbreon -- they're not just there for snorlax.

    This was the main driving counterargument, as the only centralization snorlax is "forcing" is snorlax itself. In a lax-less metagame, you're still going to have the exact same pool of viable pokemon, arguably less. Would the usage rates change? Probably, espeon is definitely a benefactor in such a meta. But you're going to see a lot of pokemon viable now that no longer will be. Steelix and skarmory aren't going to fall out of fashion without snorlax. Growltank? Probably still the standard miltank.

    Removing snorlax from gsc hardly gives us a bigger pool of pokemon to work with. The only difference is, there's no snorlax. That means stall teams are pretty much not doing anything ever; and offensive teams are going to fall apart with the first CH.

    The closest thing snorlax "forces" is a phazing move. Since you don't want curselax beating you from turn 1. But if having a phazing move is overcentralising...
  15. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    I'm not such a fan of Growl (it sure as hell isn't Reflect). Blissey just gets away with it by being that much of a sitting duck against Snorlax (unless you're not using Heal Bell :happybrain:) and Umbreon simply has nothing better to do with a single moveslot if you're exploiting Pursuit. (Toxic and recovery don't leave room for BP shenanigans, dry passing isn't very useful for Umbreon.) Miltank can do without and should pack Curse to pose some sort of actual threat to anything, or at least EQ because giving Gengar a free pass might be dumber than giving Snorlax one.

    Snorlax has plenty of checks that don't involve that sort of overly narrow bullshit. Half of them can't even touch Gengar, Misdreavus only somewhat cares even if it's packing EQ, Leech Seed Eggy is stupid good anyway. ResTalk anything can tank it long enough to force Snorlax to also Rest, opening up more options for just putting it off for later. (Skarmory isn't terrible on its own.) Reflect is criminally underused in general considering they're the easiest way to get Marowak / Machamp safely set up, arguably the only true sweepers in the game.

    Snorlax is an asshole but even if he didn't exist as he does, most special attackers can't get past Blissey and none of them can beat Raikou. Okay whatever "Espeon" (sux) but it still loses to T-tar (who also beats most others). Porygon2, who would by and large replace Snorlax as the pre-eminent neutral threat of OU, can still out-duel every single one as well.

    Physical attackers are simply more dangerous than special ones. Curse is miles more available than Growth as a booster and there's no special counterpart to Swords Dance at all. Body Slam more reliably inflicts its secondary effect, Earthquake / Return are slightly stronger than the accurate specials and Megahorn / Double-Edge are more reliable than the 120 elementals. Perhaps the primary reason is that Blissey's physical analogs (Skarm/Forry) are literally half as bulky and lack one-turn recovery, so generic walls don't work like they do against special attackers. Physical mons have counters, there's just no one-stop shop everyone can throw on their team to beat them all.

    The fun thing about passing Agility to Snorlax is that it's still outsped by Gengar at +2. :toast: Marowak is master race Agilipass threat.

    T-Wave + Drill Peck beats Blissey eventually, it can't even Ice Beam its way through Leftovers fast enough with all the turns it wastes being paralyzed or recovering. You'll probably want something else to sleep absorb still but Zapdos doesn't need ResTalk to succeed. Drill Peck is kinda cool anyway, hits Eggy harder and lets you use HP Water... or Grass if you're in a tournament and highly suspect a Quagsire showing, shame it kills your HP IV. Alakazam would be way better if it could afford to use it. :[
  16. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    From what I've seen, Fable and Quagsire are probably better (or at least more reliable) AgiPass targets. Snorlax is slower than base 110+ers and his LK conflicts with Smeargle's Spore, whereas Wak is really fragile without the boosts.

    I actually agree with MrE on Growl. Let's not get it twisted, Growl can have other uses, but the main reason people consider it is so that they can shut down Curselax. Getting Raikou in on Tyranitar? Yeah, that's cool, I guess, but I don't think it's worth a moveslot on its own merits, especially since your opponent is the one with the initiative when you're Growling. They can get their Zapdos or Vaporeon or whatever in for free before you can duck out yourself.

    Physical sweepers are more or less better because Snorlax exists. Snorlax is a physical sweeper itself, and it shuts down Special attackers, leaving other Physicals as the only real option (and even then, they only keep Lax out, they can't really come in). The stuff about higher-power moves and better boosting moves for Physicals is also relevant, but not as big a factor as just Snorlax itself, imo. It's worth noting that while everything gets Curse, only Snorlax can really use it and not be threatened on the Special side, save for a few exceptions (e.g., pre-boosted Growtheons, Zapdos Thunder crits, and SunnyBoosted Fire Blasts, none of which aside from AA Vap's boosted Surfs can really be used if Snorlax has already gotten in on, say, Starmie).

    The particularly nice thing about GSC without Lax isn't that it would change in favor of Special Attackers (although that will likely happen, Growtheons will get a lot better since Raikou struggles to force Jolteon out and Blissey can't really force anything to switch out unless it can't block Toxic). The big thing is that active plays can become more frequent (although I can see that, at first, a lot of games might turn into big fat stall wars since many people would just use Blissey over Lax on their old GSC teams). Right now, if you want to keep Lax out, you pretty much have to constantly bluff Explosions, and even then you'll still have to run passive damage control with Phazers since he WILL find a way to switch in or call your bluff. Without Lax, you have Pokemon that check each other in a more balanced way. Sure, Zapdos and Raikou are beasts, but they can't set up and absolutely force damage control every damn time, and they certainly don't have 100000 other sets that can punish you for making the "right" play to avoid being smashed by the standard set. Honestly, the only thing that can really force Lax out on a semi-reliable basis is Misdreavus, and Misdreavus has some pretty exploitable weaknesses to Spikes and Tyranitar.

    Of course, it all seems to be a moot point anyway. Lax is pretty entrenched in GSC, regardless of how massively it centralizes things. Under normal circumstances I would agree with not touching older gens like this, but I feel that GSC Lax is quite an exceptional case.
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  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Eh. Snorlax has a good chance to 2HKO Skarmory and OHKO Suicune with Double-Edge - Clefable's +6 DE will usually fail at either (while simultaneously having proportionately more recoil) and Quag flat-out can't, so Snorlax is the most dangerous Drummer, if not the most re-usable.

    You were the one who brought it up first in this thread, lol.
  18. Borat

    Borat

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    Not to mention DE + Drum is an illegal set on Clefable. The more you know.
  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Whoops.
  20. jaQ

    jaQ

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    You focus primarily on snorlax's offensive capabilities being broken when one of snorlax's most common roles is to shut down special attackers. Unlike blissey, snorlax actually kills things making him the premier special sponge of gsc.

    The concept of over-centralizing being the issue is a moot point. Without snorlax, we can assume that some special attackers that were UU or BL may move into OU tier. If you look at the special sponges with capabilities to dish damage in return, you realize that GSC doesn't seem to have a lot of reliable special attacking counters. It makes one wonder if removing snorlax will over-centralize these special sweepers, creating the exact same problem again.

    It sounds like you're using over-centralizing as an issue to cover up the fact that you just really hate snorlax. It's normal to want to see what it's like to play gsc without having to waste half your team space simply preparing for the tyrant. I admit, when I started playing I felt that he was overpowered and couldn't understand why he was allowed when he was more effective than banned ubers! The great fat one slowly grew on me. Now, I wouldn't know how to play GSC without snorlax.

    Considering how long it has been since gsc came out, the risk of alienating the remaining gsc players with a complete tier revamp just seems absurd to me. Even if it made the majority happy, banning snorlax can only lose more of its already dying crowd (or already dead crowd). It seems highly doubtful to me that a D/P player that passed on GSC in the past due to snorlax being overpowered will suddenly begin playing this old generation.

    A no-snorlax clause sounds fine for fun games. A complete ban on the face of a metagame for 13 years....just no.
  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I'm not sure how to reconcile "Snorlax is more effective than banned ubers" and "the tiers are not broken".
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  22. Mr.E

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    Which? There's only five anyway and Lugia/Mew/Mewtwo are all plainly superior to me. Celebi is so unique that I would hesitate to make the call one way or the other. While Celebi can't blow through an entire team on its own, Heal Bell and Leech Seed are two highly effective and highly exclusive moves that allow Celebi to play a strong supporting role for more dangerous pure attackers than Snorlax. Ho-oh is the only one I might concede, even so the only thing that consistently beats it, besides LMM, is Zapdos. Ho-oh is just as tanky as Snorlax stats-wise and the choice between Whirlwind or Sacred Fire on the Curse set cumulatively shuts down pretty much everything else. Non-Curse, Ho-oh is a much better hit-and-run threat due to its speed and coverage.

    Most of the best non-OU special attackers are already usable in part due to their relative strength against Snorlax (grassers, Slowbro, Moltres, Espeon). Removing Snorlax makes them better overall but also closes the gap between them and the chaff. Maybe Alakazam sees usage again, the rest wouldn't move. More likely my mono-Electric team would be virtually unbeatable with Snorlax out to pasture. :P

    V oic, well nonetheless...
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    To clarify, I was questioning jaQ's simultaneous claims that Snorlax was more effective than Ubers yet should not be Uber. I'm neutral on both questions myself but find those simultaneous claims absurd.
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  24. Dre89

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    I don't understand this argument that we shouldn't ban something, because it would change the meta significantly (eg. pokemon X is no longer viable, or pokemon Y is now viable).

    Changing the meta shouldn't be considered at all, because if the pokemon in question is banworthy, then we've technically been playing a 'faulty' meta all this time anyway.
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  25. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Perfection isn't what's strived for, because it's absurd to assume that can be achieved. It's just a certain minimum of faults that we seek. In the case of older generations, the threshold number of faults ought to be higher because stability in the older metagame should be valued more than efforts to "fix" it. One of the main draws of older generations is the lack of tiering flux seen in the current gen, after all. Snorlax is the exception I feel crosses that threshold for GSC.

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