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Snorlax [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Ernesto, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    QC approvals: 3/3 (PK Gaming, RT., DestinyUnknown)
    GP approvals: 2/2 (relaunched, NixHex)


    [Overview]

    <p>Once the King of GSC OU, Snorlax took quite a few hits with each subsequent generation, finally dropping to UU along with long-time fellow OU Pokemon, Zapdos, in BW. With the rising popularity of Fighting-types, it struggles to maintain a big presence on the battlefield. Furthermore, lack of reliable recovery really hurts its durability&mdash;especially with the BW sleep mechanics. However, its amazing HP stat and great special bulk make it one of the few able to reliably check a complete offensive spectrum, taking on special powerhouses such as Nidoking or Zapdos. Snorlax is also the most trustworthy answer to Chandelure, one of the biggest threats in the metagame. With its good base 110 Attack stat, it can keep offensive pressure with ease, be it with a Choice Band or by setting up with its old Curse set.</p>

    <p>Taking everything previously stated into account, Snorlax continues to be a great addition to any team, countering specific prominent threats, such as Offensive Trick Room Cofagrigus or Substitute+Calm Mind Raikou, very aptly. Even though it's much less metagame-defining than it once was, it can take credit for being a staple of the Underused metagame and one of the most used Pokemon overall.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Return / Body Slam
    move 2: Pursuit
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Crunch / Fire Punch
    item: Choice Band / Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 52 Def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Offensive Snorlax is very useful on offensive teams, being able to switch into many special attackers and hit back hard thanks to its fully invested base 110 Attack stat. Return is the main option for a STAB move, being able to hit Pokemon such as Shaymin and Zapdos hard; Body Slam is an alternative due to the added paralysis chance, but its damage output makes it the lesser choice. Pursuit is arguably the draw of the set, allowing Snorlax to remove the Ghost- and Psychic-type Pokemon&mdash;Chandelure being the most notable target, since it fears Earthquake&mdash;that it forces out, possibly opening up a path for a partner to sweep. Earthquake lets Snorlax hit Rhyperior and Cobalion, both of which would otherwise get in nearly unscathed to set up on it. For the last slot, the best options are Crunch and Fire Punch, the former hitting Cofagrigus hard&mdash;allowing Snorlax to counter the Offensive Trick Room version&mdash;and dealing more to Slowbro and Mew than the other three moves, and the latter allowing Snorlax to get past Bronzong and Escavalier, while beating Abomasnow more easily. Fire Punch is also good against Shaymin if Snorlax runs Body Slam over Return.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread maximizes Snorlax's offensive presence while allowing it to avoid the OHKO from a +1 Kingdra's Outrage after Stealth Rock, the 52 Defense EVs also let it survive two Outrages from Jolly Choice Scarf Flygon around 85% of the time without Stealth Rock on the field. The rest of the EVs go into Special Defense to make better use of its great special bulk, with 4 Speed EVs to get the jump on opposing base 30s such as Slowbro and Cofagrigus. Choice Band is the main item due to the added damage output, but Leftovers allow Snorlax to last longer and let it switch moves. While the listed spread is arguably the most effective, an alternate one of 252 Atk / 88 Def / 172 SpD with an Adamant nature can work with Leftovers to ensure Snorlax isn't 2HKOed by non-Choice Band Crobat's Brave Bird after Stealth Rock damage. Thick Fat is the only ability worth using, since it allows Snorlax to be the best answer to Chandelure, one of the hardest hitting Pokemon in the tier; it also lets it be a last-minute check to physical Fire- and Ice-type Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Victini and Choice Band Weavile.</p>

    <p>Double-Edge is another option for a STAB move, being more powerful than a super effective Crunch, and working decently alongside Snorlax's massive HP stat. Without Leftovers though, Snorlax won't be able to check special attackers such as Zapdos and Raikou as well due to the recoil, therefore Return is usually a better option. Ice Punch can be used in the last slot to beat Gligar, though the latter is faster and can therefore Roost in Snorlax's face. It can work when combined with Leftovers and Body Slam paralysis, though. Seed Bomb is also an alternative to hit Rhyperior harder and beat Swampert one on one. Protect is a great option with Leftovers, giving it extra recovery and scouting for Choice users, especially notable against Fighting-types such as Heracross and Mienshao. Finally, Selfdestruct could be an option due to it being a 200 Base Power STAB move capable of OHKOing Slowbro. However, it faces legality issues with Pursuit, the primary of this set.</p>

    <p>When looking for partners, Fighting-types such as Heracross and Mienshao deserve a mention, since they appreciate the removal or weakening of Ghost- and Psychic-types. As Snorlax's only weakness is Fighting, a Pokemon that can absorb those moves with ease also works well. The best examples are Choice Specs Slowbro and Offensive Trick Room Cofagrigus, since they make good switches into Fighting-types and are good on offensive teams. Finally, to guarantee Snorlax will be able to tank hits for most of the match, Rapid Spin support is recommended. Hitmontop and Blastoise are the best for the job, but they are hard to fit into offensive teams, so Magic Bounce Xatu is and option to prevent hazards from being set and keeping the momentum.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive CurseLax
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Return
    move 3: Crunch
    move 4: Earthquake / Fire Punch
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 80 HP / 176 Atk / 96 Def / 156 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>A staple of the GSC era of Snorlax dominance, Curse Snorlax continues to be a threat. Taking a more offensive approach to the classic set, this set forfeits Rest in order to get three-move coverage. As such, it shouldn't be seen as a last-Pokemon sweeper but as an early wallbreaker by setting up on the special attackers it easily checks, mainly Chandelure, Zapdos, and Raikou. Curse boosts Snorlax's great Attack and passable Defense stats at the cost of its already low Speed stat. Return is the STAB move of choice, with Crunch to hit Ghost-types, Mew, and Slowbro harder. The last move is for specific Pokemon: Earthquake hits Cobalion and Rhyperior harder, while Fire Punch helps against Bronzong and Escavalier, still hitting Cobalion super-effectively.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>The EVs allow Snorlax to always survive Choice Scarf Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick and Choice Scarf Heracross's Close Combat after one Curse boost, at the same time avoiding the 2HKO from Choice Band Flygon's Outrage, and always take two Thunderbolts from Choice Specs Zapdos. The rest goes into Snorlax's Attack stat to grant it more offensive presence. Adamant is the preferred nature for more power, hitting hard with Return even before setting up. Seed Bomb can be used to beat Rhyperior more reliably, since the latter avoids being 2HKOed by +1 Earthquake without investing into its Defense stat. It also disposes of Blastoise or Swampert that could try to Toxic or Roar Snorlax away. Selfdestruct can work as a secondary STAB move, getting a kill on stuff that prevent a teammate from sweeping, hitting incredibly hard after one Curse: to get a frame of reference, it deals roughly the same amount of damage to Rhyperior as Earthquake, it has a good chance of beating max Defense Blastoise before the latter can Roar Snorlax out, and it can even OHKO Slowbro with Spikes support.</p>

    <p>Depending on Snorlax's last move, it will struggle with specific threats. If it goes for Earthquake, Bronzong and Escavalier will wall it, so Fire-types like Chandelure or Rotom-H are good partners to deal with those walls. However, if it chooses Fire Punch, it won't stand a chance against Rhyperior and defensive Empoleon&mdash;offensive variants dislike boosted Returns&mdash;so Shaymin or Choice Specs Slowbro with Trick will be good teammates; the latter will also be able to deal with the Fighting-types that force Snorlax out, specifically Mienshao and Cobalion. Since this set's purpose is to smash things after a boost, having a secondary special tank is a good idea. Rhyperior is excellent in that regard, as it can bait Zapdos and Raikou into using Hidden Power, letting Snorlax switch in more safely. Nidoqueen can perform similarly, and also switch into Heracross and Scrafty with ease. Finally, Spikes support helps Snorlax greatly. Froslass and Roserade are the best for that position, the former acting as a spinblocker and the latter absorbing Scalds from bulky Water-types, such as Suicune.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Classic CurseLax
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Body Slam
    move 3: Earthquake / Crunch
    move 4: Rest
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Careful
    evs: 144 HP / 188 Def / 176 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This acts as the old Curse Snorlax that dominated a huge part of GSC OU, taking a more defensive approach. This Snorlax has been renowned as one of the most resilient last-Pokemon sweepers, since its sole weakness makes it harder to KO on the special side while it boosts its physical defense. While it isn't as good as it once was, considering the offensive nature of the metagame, it can still prove to be a threat. Body Slam is the STAB of choice for the paralysis chance, helping Snorlax boost more reliably. Earthquake and Crunch are the options for coverage, the former hitting Rhyperior and Cobalion, and the latter helping against Cofagrigus and Slowbro. Rest allows Snorlax to set up without fear on Zapdos and Raikou, since Snorlax can survive three hits before having to use Rest.</p>


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread turns Snorlax into an amazing special tank, avoiding the 3HKO from Life Orb Modest Zapdos and Timid Choice Specs Raikou, while also taking two Surfs from Life Orb Kingdra in Rain. Additionally, the 188 Defense EVs allow it to survive two V-Creates from Jolly Choice Band Victini after Stealth Rock damage. Snorlax can also survive a Hi Jump Kick from Reckless Choice Scarf Mienshao at +1. If running Crunch, an alternate spread of 144 HP / 76 Atk / 112 Def / 176 SpD with a Careful nature can be used to guarantee the OHKO at +1 on 120/0 Chandelure, after a switch into Stealth Rock. Chesto Berry is an option over Leftovers to get instant recovery with Rest, although Leftovers are generally better in the long-run. Double-Edge can work over Body Slam with a spread of 80 HP / 176 Atk / 96 Def / 156 SpD and an Adamant nature, since with Rest, Snorlax doesn't mind the recoil much. Sleep Talk can be used to act as a mono-attacker, provided Snorlax has heavy Pursuit support to take care of Ghost-types. Fire Punch hits all Steel-types, while also beating Shaymin and Abomasnow more reliably; however, it would prevent Snorlax from hitting Chandelure.</p>

    <p>Since this set struggles with Cobalion and Rhyperior&mdash;the former setting up on Snorlax and the latter phazing it with Dragon Tail&mdash;especially if it isn't running Earthquake, Slowbro makes for a good partner, as it can take little from their moves and even set up on them. Cleric support can be used if Snorlax is forced to Rest early and can't stay in, giving it a second chance to set up. Roserade and Togekiss are good options, the former forcing Rhyperior out and being able to set up Spikes or put a Pokemon to sleep, and the latter taking advantage of the removal or weakening of Electric-types. Finally, if not running Crunch, a Pursuit user is helpful to damage Ghost-types that don't mind Earthquake: Guts Heracross and Houndoom are the best options, absorbing Will-O-Wisps due to their abilities.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Body Slam
    move 4: Whirlwind
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Careful
    evs: 144 HP / 188 Def / 176 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This was at one point the premier special wall of the Underused metagame, and continues to be useful. Even with the revised sleep mechanics, Snorlax is a viable Rest + Sleep Talk user due to its great natural bulk and access to Whirlwind to phaze away things trying to set up on it. Body Slam is the only attacking move needed, possibly spreading paralysis even while asleep. Whirlwind forces Pokemon out to rack up hazard damage; it works great alongside Body Slam and Sleep Talk, since the latter bypasses Whirlwind's negative priority when Snorlax is up against a paralyzed opponent. Rest gives it a form of recovery, while Sleep Talk means it won't be a sitting duck while asleep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread allows Snorlax to survive two V-creates from Choice Band Victini, while also not being 3HKOed by Modest Life Orb Zapdos's and Choice Specs Raikou's Thunderbolt. If you dislike the idea of a mono-attacking set, Crunch can be used instead of Sleep Talk or Whirlwind to hit Ghost-types such as Chandelure, while also dealing decent damage to Slowbro and Cofagrigus.</p>

    <p>Since this set is amazing at racking up residual damage, hazard setters are mandatory. Roserade and Froslass are good partners, both laying Spikes reliably while also resisting or being immune to Fighting-type moves. Roserade can also run Aromatherapy, which could be helpful should Snorlax forgo Sleep Talk. Since neither can switch into coverage moves from Fighting-types, a main answer to them as well as Rhyperior is of need. Slowbro and Cofagrigus are both great physical walls to take those on, while having enough offensive presence to not become setup fodder. Slowbro can even take advantage of the paralysis spreading to get a late-game sweep with Calm Mind.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Outside of the moves listed, Snorlax has other options it can run. It can use Rest + three attacks with Chesto Berry for instant recovery, or Belly Drum to mimic its old offensive set from GSC with two attacking moves and Rest, although neither option help it much, and the huge boost isn't worth losing half its health&mdash;especially considering Snorlax usually takes two hits before moving. Every set can run either one of Double-Edge, Return, or Body Slam as a STAB move, but each has one that goes better with Snorlax's purpose. As coverage options, it learns Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Wild Charge, and Superpower, each nailing a different Pokemon. Snorlax also has a good special movepool, with Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, and Blizzard, for example, but its low Special Attack means it's unable to put them to good use. Finally, it has borderline-viable support moves in Toxic, Counter, Yawn, and Stockpile to aid its teammates.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While straight-out countering Snorlax isn't an easy task, Rhyperior is the closest to that position as long as Snorlax isn't running Seed Bomb, since Rhyperior doesn't mind the paralysis and doesn't take much from unboosted Earthquakes, hitting back hard with its own STAB Earthquakes. Rhyperior can also phaze Curse variants, although that isn't as reliable in the lategame. Fighting-types such as Cobalion and Heracross can switch in on some sets, but neither enjoy being paralyzed and they are hit hard by Snorlax's offensive sets. Shed Skin Scrafty doesn't mind paralysis and can set up on Snorlax, but it doesn't enjoy taking STAB Returns and it can't beat Snorlax if Scrafty switched in while it used Curse. Bulky Intimidate Scrafty, on the other hand, can even switch into Choice Band-boosted Returns and force Snorlax out, though it won't enjoy getting paralyzed by Body Slam variants. Cofagrigus needs to avoid Crunch, but can otherwise set up alongside it with Nasty Plot or Calm Mind and hit it with Hidden Power Fighting, moving first if Snorlax uses Curse. Defensive Cofagrigus can't directly harm it, but it can beat Curse variants with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Haze, disrupting a possible sweep.</p>

    <p>Tricking a Choice Specs or a Choice Scarf is generally a good way of dealing with Snorlax, since only the offensive sets don't mind being locked into a move. Rotom-H and Chandelure are good lures for it, though the latter needs to worry about Pursuit on the way out. Those two can also lure Snorlax and use Will-O-Wisp, which can mean the end for Snorlax if it doesn't have Rest. Stallbreakers such as Mew, Crobat, and Mismagius can make short work of non-Offensive Snorlax with Taunt, preventing it from using Rest and Curse. However, they can't directly switch in without knowing the sets, since Return and Crunch, respectively, hit them hard.</p>

    <p>Finally, submitting Snorlax to much offensive pressure is generally a good option, since non-Rest variants become unable to stop Zapdos and Raikou, and Rest variants can be taken advantage of while asleep. Strong special attackers like Nidoking or Choice Specs Yanmega usually do a great job of wearing Snorlax down. Incoming switches need to be wary of Sleep Talk, though.</p>


    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Once the King of GSC OU, Snorlax has taken quite a bunch of hits with every new generation, until in BW it finally dropped to UU along with its long-time fellow Zapdos. With the rising popularity of Fighting-types, it struggles to maintain a big presence on the battlefield. Furthermore, lack of reliable recovery really hurts its durability – especially with the BW sleep mechanics. However, its amazing HP stat and great special bulk make it one of the few able to reliably check a complete offensive spectrum (I don't know if it's the best word here). It's also the most reliable answer to Chandelure, one of the biggest threats in the metagame. With its good 110 base Attack stat, it can keep offensive pressure with ease, be it with a Choice Band or by setting up. Overall, Snorlax continues to be a great addition to any team, capable of performing really well at countering specific prominent threats, such as OTR Cofagrigus or SubCM Raikou. Even though it's much less metagame-defining as it once was, it can take credit for being a staple of the Underused metagame and one of the most used Pokemon overall.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Return / Body Slam
    move 2: Pursuit
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Crunch / Fire Punch
    item: Choice Band / Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 52 Def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Useful on offensive teams; can switch into many special attackers and hit hard in return
    • Return is the main option for a STAB move due to the damage dealt, however Body Slam is usable for the paralysis chance
    • Pursuit allows it to punish Ghosts and Psychics that try to escape from it, this is especially notable for Chandelure, which fears Earthquake
    • Earthquake hits most Steel-types that try to absorb its STAB moves for super-effective damage
    • Crunch allows it to hit Nasty Plot Mew and OTR Cofagrigus harder than anything else, being able to 2HKO them after SR
    • Fire Punch is another option in the last slot, mainly reserved for Bronzong, Abomasnow, and Durant, and Shaymin if not running Return

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The EV spread maximizes Snorlax's offensive presence while allowing it to avoid the OHKO from a +1 Kingdra's Outrage after SR, the 52 Def EVs also let it survive two Outrages from Jollly Choice Scarf Flygon around 85% of the time without Stealth Rock on the field; the rest goes into Special Defense to make good use of its great special bulk
    • Choice Band is the main move for the added amount of damage, but Leftovers can work if you want Snorlax to last longer and be able to switch moves
    • Alternatively, it can run a spread of 252 Atk / 88 Def / 172 SpD to ensure it isn't 2HKOed by Crobat's Brave Bird after Stealth Rock damage
    • Thick Fat allows it to tank Chandelure's and Rotom-H's Fire-type moves better than anything else, while also being able to take hits from physical Fire and Ice-type Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Victini and Choice Band Weavile
    • Double-Edge is a more powerful STAB move that can be put to use thanks to Snorlax immense HP stat, however Return gets the job done most of the times; Double-Edge does do some nice things, such as getting a guaranteed 2HKO on Slowbro after SR and Leftovers—Crunch only has an 82% chance, and can mean a free switch for Cobalion or Virizion—and having a 48% chance to 2HKO Gligar after SR, though the latter is faster and can attempt to stall you into Earthquake range by spamming Roost
    • Other moves it can run are Seed Bomb for Rhyperior and Swampert, and Ice Punch for Gligar and Flygon – though the only way it'll be beating Gligar is if Snorlax has Leftovers and Body Slam, getting a paralysis if it tries to stall out and then outspeeding and KOing with it
    • Protect can be used with Leftovers to give it extra recovery
    • Selfdestruct could be an option, since even with the nerf it's still a 200 Base Power STAB move; it's still hitting Rhyperior hard, it gets the OHKO on 248/248+ Slowbro, and has a 50% chance of OHKOing Cobalion after SR. However, it faces legality issues alongside Pursuit, which is arguably the crux of the set
    • Pokemon that can take advantage of the removal of Ghosts and Psychics are good partners for this set. Such is the case for Heracross and Mienshao
    • As Snorlax's only weakness is Fighting, a Pokemon that can absorb those moves with ease also works well. An example of this is Choice Specs Slowbro, which works similarly to Snorlax but on the physical side
    • To guarantee that it will be able to tank hits for most of the match, Rapid Spin support is recommended. Hitmontop and Blastoise are the best for the job, but Magic Bounce Xatu can also work to prevent hazards from ever being set

    [SET]
    name: Offensive CurseLax
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Return
    move 3: Crunch
    move 4: Earthquake / Fire Punch
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 80 HP / 176 Atk / 92 Def / 160 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • A staple of the GSC era, Curse Snorlax continues to be a threat
    • Curse+3 attacks is used to break walls while being able to take a couple of physical moves without dying; hard to pull off a sweep due to the lack of recovery outside of Leftovers
    • Curse is the key move, allowing Snorlax to boost its Attack and its physical Defense at the cost of its already low Speed
    • Return is the STAB move of choice, due to the sheer power if offers
    • Earthquake allows it to hit Cobalion, Rhyperior, and Registeel that try to wall its Normal-type moves, while Fire Punch allows it to hit Bronzong and Durant harder
    • Crunch helps it deal with Slowbro and Cofagrigus, two of the most used physical walls, better than anything else

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The EVs allow Snorlax to always survive Choice Scarf Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick and Choice Scarf Heracross's Close Combat at +1 together with avoiding the 2HKO from Choice Band Flygon, while also always surviving two Thunderbolts from Choice Specs Zapdos's Thunderbolt; the rest goes into Attack to give it more offensive presence
    • Adamant is the preferred nature for more power, making its Return hit really hard everything that doesn't resist it or is immune to it
    • Double-Edge for more power, but it takes away Snorlax's ability to tank special hits like a boss
    • Seed Bomb can be used to beat Rhyperior more reliably (248/0 avoids the 2HKO from +1 Earthquake), while also disposing of Blastoise and Swampert that could try to Toxic you or phaze you, more easily than with Return; while it deals the same damage to Slowbro than Crunch, it's a weaker alternative to the given moves
    • Selfdestruct can be used to beat something that stands in the way of another Pokemon sweeping: to get a frame of reference, it hits Rhyperior for the same amount of damage than Earthquake taking into account STAB and Solid Rock, while having roughly a 30% chance to OHKO Slowbro after SR at +1 (guaranteed with SR and one layer of spikes)
    • Depending on what moves Snorlax is running it will struggle with specific threats. If it chooses Earthquake, it will be walled by Bronzong and Shaymin unless it's running Rest, so Heracross is a good option for a teammate; if it goes with Fire Punch, it won't get past Rhyperior, so a Water-type such as Slowbro or Milotic will work well; Slowbro has the added benefit of spreading paralysis and resisting Fighting-type moves
    • Since this set's purpose is to smash things at +1, it's not a bad idea to have a secondary special tank; Rhyperior does well here, being able to switch into Zapdos and Raikou that lack Hidden Power Grass and force them out
    • Finally, a Pokemon that can absorb the Fighting-type moves aimed at Snorlax is key here. Slowbro has already been mentioned, but Zapdos and Crobat can work due to being better answers to Heracross and Scrafty, both of which can take advantage of Snorlax if it hasn't been able to acquire more than one boost

    [SET]
    name: Classic CurseLax
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Body Slam
    move 3: Earthquake / Crunch
    move 4: Rest
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Careful
    evs: 144 HP / 188 Def / 176 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Homage to the CurseLax set that dominated GSC OU
    • More defensive approach, with Rest to sweep more reliably—outside of the random critical hits
    • Body Slam is the STAB of choice, dealing reliable damage and having the chance of paralyzing non-Ghost switch-ins
    • Earthquake is an option to hit Steel-types and Rhyperior while also beating Chandelure mano a mano; doesn't deal much damage to the first ones without a couple of boosts though
    • Crunch to get a hit on the Ghost-types that would otherwise wall this set—with the exception of Chandelure, of course
    • Rest to provide longevity, pairing well with its more defensive spread

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Given EVs allow it to act as a great special tank, avoiding the 3HKO from LO Modest Zapdos and Choice Specs Timid Raikou, while avoiding the 2HKO from LO Kingdra's Surf in Rain
    • The 188 Def EVs allow it to survive two V-Creates from Jolly Choice Band Victini after SR
    • If running Crunch, an alternate spread of 144 HP / 76 Atk / 112 Def / 176 SpD Careful can work to guarantee the OHKO on 120/0 Chandelure after SR at +1
    • At +1, it can even survive a Hi Jump Kick from Reckless Choice Scarf Mienshao
    • Chesto Berry can be used over Leftovers to get an instant recovery with Rest, though Leftovers tends to be better in the long-run
    • Sleep Talk can be used to act as a mono-attacking booster provided it has Pursuit support to take care of Ghost-types
    • Fire Punch hits all Steel-types, while also beating Shaymin and Abomasnow more reliably; it leaves it completely walled by Chandelure, though
    • Since this set struggles with Cobalion and Rhyperior, especially if it isn't running Earthquake, Slowbro makes for a good partner, being able to beat them while taking little from their moves
    • Cleric support can be used if Snorlax is forced to Rest early and can't stay in, giving it a second chance to set up later
    • If it's not running Crunch, Pursuit support is useful to beat Ghost-types that take little from Earthquake; Heracross and Houndoom are good options here

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Body Slam
    move 4: Whirlwind
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Careful
    evs: 144 HP / 188 Def / 176 SpD (subject to change)

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • The premier special wall of UU. Even with BW sleep mechanics, Snorlax can use Rest+Sleep Talk rather well due to its great natural bulk and access to Whirlwind to phaze away things trying to set up on it
    • Body Slam is the only attacking move needed, being able to spread paralysis even when asleep
    • Whirlwind forces Pokemon out to rack up hazard damage; it also goes well with Body Slam and Sleep Talk, allowing it to bypass the negative priority if it's up against a paralysed opponent
    • Rest offers it a way of recovery, while Sleep Talk means it won't be a sitting duck while it's sleeping

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The EV spread allows it to always survive two V-Creates from Choice Band Victini, while also not being 3HKOed by Modest Life Orb Zapdos's and Choice Specs Raikou's Thunderbolts
    • If you dislike the idea of a mono-attacker set, Crunch can be used instead of Sleep Talk to hit Ghost-types, such as Mismagius and Chandelure, while also doing decent damage to Slowbro and Cofagrigus
    • Since this set is amazing at racking up hazard damage, hazard setters are important. Roserade and Froslass are good partners, being able to lay Spikes reliably while also resisting or being immune to Fighting-type moves. Roserade has the added utility of Aromatherapy, in case Snorlax forgoes Sleep Talk
    • Due to Roserade being extremely frail physically, Slowbro is a good option for a teammate to tank physical blows better. It can be used as a late-game cleaner with a Calm Mind set, taking advantage of Snorlax spreading paralysis. The three also make a solid defensive core, though there are a few threats that can beat it, such as Heracross, Weavile, and Scrafty

    [Other Options]
    • ChestoRest Snorlax with three attacking moves
    • Double-Edge is a strong option over Return, dealing more damage and working well with Snorlax's high HP stat. However, it affects Snorlax's ability to take hits and dish them out, and is therefore a secondary option
    • Different offensive options, such as Zen Headbutt, Seed Bomb, Ice Punch, Wild Charge, Outrage, and Iron Head
    • Fire Blast, Thunderbolt and Blizzard on the special side, but it has way too low a Special Attack to make good use of them
    • As for support moves, Toxic, Belly Drum, Counter, Yawn, and Stockpile are all semi-viable options

    [Checks and Counters]
    • Straight-out countering Snorlax is hard to do, Rhyperior is the closest thing to a counter as long as Snorlax doesn't have Seed Bomb, since it doesn't mind the paralysis and can beat it with Earthquake, while also taking little from Snorlax's own Earthquakes
    • Fighting-types such as Cobalion and Heracross are good answers, but neither wants to be paralysed—not even Guts Heracross—, and they can be hit hard by the Offensive set
    • Trick users can usually punish it, as long as they don't trick it a Choice Band, making it lose much potential. Sableye is the main one, also being able to Taunt it and burn it with Will-O-Wisp, while Rotom-H and Chandelure can lure it in and trick it a Choice Scarf or a Choice Specs
    • Stallbreakers such as Mew, Crobat, and Mismagius can also make short work of non-Offensive Snorlax, while preventing it from setting up Curses, so they make good checks too, though they can be hit hard by Crunch
    • Forcing it to Rest by simply submitting it to much offensive pressure is also a good option, but incoming switches need to fear Sleep Talk
  2. kokoloko

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    Set order should be CB -> Curse -> RestTalk

    CB should really be "Offensive" with Leftovers slashed in, because that's still a thing and the EVs for that set should be 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD.

    Curse set should have Return slashed after Body Slam and we should probably work out a new EV spread that's more offensive and with that maybe take Rest into AC with a mention of a more defensive spread and how Rest CurseLax can demolish defensive teams easily when its the last mon standing.

    RestTalk set should probably get a new EV spread as well because I'm not sure what that one does anymore (I think it tanks CB Victini or something?). Also remove Curse slash from there, mention RestTalk + Curse in OO or the AC of the Curse set instead.

    Protect needs a heavy mention in the Offensive set's AC, by the way. Obviously only with Leftovers.

    I'll expand when you finish the skeleton.
  3. Ernesto

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    OK, thanks for the big input. I'll have this finished by later today.
  4. Super Mario Bro

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    The Resttalk set should aim towards having as much bulk as possible, with a moderate special defense bias. Nearly maxing his Spdef EVs is wholly unnecessary and inefficient, since Snorlax takes special attacks just fine even when you don't invest so much. It gets much more overall bulk when you invest in physical defense:

    Careful
    208 HP / 244 Def / 56 SDef

    To demonstrate Snorlax's bulk with this spread, he is almost never 2HKO'd by either Jolly Band Darmanitan's Flare Blitz or Modest Specs Kingdra's Hydro Pump after SR and Lefties. Investing in defense also allows Snorlax to take on things like Life Orb Azelf with a bit more security, since it's never OHKO'd by either +2 Psychic or +2 Psyshock after SR, a layer of spikes, and lefties.
  5. cim

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    I'd like us to come up with EV spreads that are based on something other than arbitrary ratios between stats, Snorlax EVing has been completely arbitrary since the third generation and it's never been optimized to take particular attacks. The standard for CB until this revamp, for multiple generations, was made entirely to produce round numbers for the defensive stats. I'll work on this later, but does anyone have any particularly noteworthy benchmarks to hit?

    The CBer (who runs Leftovers?) should absolutely run 4 speed EVs to creep on Slowbro and Snorlax.

    Additional Comments for the RestTalk set should discuss coverage moves as an option, in my opinion. Not that Whirlwind is bad, but there are threats Snorlax checks that it would rather deal with directly.
  6. Ernesto

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    I understand, but since I didn't have a better spread to begin with, I used the X-Act Defense calculator to get a preferred spread with a bias towards Special Defense. Something like the spread that SMB posted could work, but I'd like to see if we can use a spread that accomplishes something 100% of the time. Either way, I think he's on the right track.

    I agree with you that the Offensive set should run Choice Band 99% of the times, but kokoloko was right when he said that Lefties was perfectly usable, changing a 50% loss in power for the ability to switch moves and tank hits better. I agree on the 4 Speed EVs to outpace minimum Speed Slowbro and Snorlax (and Guss, let's not forget Guss), but maybe that works better with Choice Band and isn't as important with Lefties? I don't know, I'll get into that later.
  7. Super Mario Bro

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    According to your criterion, we need indicate exactly what Snorlax needs to check. Considering Snorlax cannot effectively switch into Darmanitan due to the threat of Superpower, I think we can bring it down a notch to Choice Band Victini:

    Careful
    208 HP / 204 Def / 96 SpD

    With this EV spread, Snorlax is able to tank 2 of Victini's Jolly Band V-Creates after Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers, and subsequently rest off the damage. He is also never 3HKO'd by Jolly Scarf Victini's V-Create after SR, nor is he 2HKO'd by Adamant Scarf Flygon's Outrage after SR. The extra special defense guarantees that he survives two Life Orb Zapdos Thunderbolts after Stealth Rock, three layers of spikes, and leftovers.

    With this spread, Snorlax is about 2.2% more specially bulky and 10.2% more physically bulky than Max HP / Max SpDef Careful Umbreon.
  8. Ernesto

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    Funnily, that spread is the one I'd put on the CurseLax set with a 13:7 ratio (65-35 per cent). OK, that sounds good to me, so at least for now I'm gonna use that spread as the main one for the RestTalk set. I'll try to look into a more offensive spread for Curse, but I'm not sure what QC is aiming at.
  9. Ernesto

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    The skeleton is finally finished
  10. cim

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    Some EV numbers to consider for the Offensive Lax

    If you want to survive two Jolly Scarf Flygon EQs after SR:
    With Leftovers: 252 Atk / 44 Def / 212 SpD
    With CB: 252 Atk / 92 Def / 168 SpD (probably too many EVs?)

    If you want to survive two Jolly 192 Atk Crobat Brave Birds after SR:
    With Leftovers: 252 Atk / 88 Def / 172 SpD
    With CB: Way too many Def EVs (up to 120)

    After doing a few more calcs I honestly think just 252 / 252 is probably the best way to do it, especially since as a hit and run attacker his starting HP won't be very consistent. 4 Speed though.

    minor thing: with ice punch for gligar on the offensive leftovers set, you can just use body slam while gligar roosts until you paralyze, then you beat it. also if it burns a turn on toxic and you ice punched, enjoy!
  11. Ernesto

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    OK, will address the 4 Speed issue, mention an alternate spread for Offensive Lefties—not sure if the Flygon or the Crobat one—, and will make a mention about Ice Punch (though it must have Lefties+Body Slam, neither of which is a first slash lol).

    Thanks for the feedback!!
  12. cim

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    I would do the Crobat spread if only because it covers both of them and being able to beat Flygon in a pinch with two layers of Spikes is also neat.
  13. Ernesto

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    That is added now, thank you. Any thoughts on CurseLax though? Should we just go for max Attack Addy or does it take a lot out of its defensive presence?
  14. Super Mario Bro

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    Since Curselax without Rest shouldn't be switching into much anyway, I think it would be best to just give it max Attack and distribute the rest into its defenses.

    Adamant
    80 HP / 64 Def / 252 Atk / 112 SDef

    That spread gives it respectable defenses after a Curse boost, only succumbing to the strongest of physical fighting attacks at +1 Def (even Adamant Scarf Heracross only does 75.3% - 89% with Close Combat). Specifically, it never gets 2HKO'd by Adamant Scarf Darmanitan's Flare Blitz after SR and Lefties.

    I'd also make Return the first slash to hit things like Raikou and Zapdos harder. Parahax isn't as important on this set, since Snorlax is usually slower than paralyzed Pokes after a Curse.
  15. PK Gaming

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    Nice spread.

    I think you should go ahead and use this spread OP, unless anyone else has any alternative spreads that they can think of. I disagree with prioritizing Return over Body Slam however. There are times where you won't set up a Curse, and Body Slam's paralysis chance is more useful than Return's increase in power. The paralysis also comes in handy while you're cursing since you can rely on that paralysis chance to hax out threats that would ordinarily beat you in a 1 v 1 matchup.
  16. Ernesto

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    Sorry I didn't reply earlier, there was a thunderstorm here and half the city was left without power lol.

    I like the spread, but I'd like to know if there's anything on the special side it barely loses out on to make it better overall, by switching EVs between Defense and HP. Otherwise, I'm gonna go ahead and use it, thanks a lot SMB!!!

    EDIT: Just did the calcs, and in fact Darm has a 1.17% chance of 2HKOing it, so I'll switch EVs to make that an 0% chance (it needs 76 EVs). It can still KO it with Superpower, though so I'm now not so sure about that :\ I'll make it standard, but if anyone thinks he found a better spread, please say so.
  17. PK Gaming

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    QC APPROVED 1/3
  18. kokoloko

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    QC really needs together and discuss the EVs on this before this passes QC, so no more checks until that happens, please.
  19. FlareBlitz

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    Posting on request from koko.

    Curse set should have 80 HP / 176 Atk / 96 Def / 156 SpD, this lets it avoid an ohko from scarf mien and scarf heracross after a curse, also lets it avoid a 2hko from CB Flygon. The SpD is still enough to avoid a 2hko from specs zapdos' thunderbolt.
  20. kokoloko

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    Also the EVs for CBLax will be 252 Atk / 52 def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe; because it lets it tank a +1 Kingdra Outrage after SR. Also avoid the 2hko from Scarf Flygon most of the time without SR (run calcs on this to make sure pls).
  21. Ernesto

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    Thanks, FlareBlitz and kokoloko!

    OK, changes made. Any comments about the bulkier spreads mentioned and about the EV spread on the RestTalk set?
  22. reachzero

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    Having that much defense and that little special defense on CurseLax is extremely counterproductive. Snorlax is already highly pressed to wall many of the threats he is expected to handle, and is extremely vulnerable to residual damage of all kinds. I would worry far more about taking repeated Specs Raikou Volt Switches and Nidoking/queen Focus Blasts or Chandelure HP Fightings than I would any physical attacks, which I would rather just refer to Snorlax's partners (like Slowbro). Snorlax should worry about being a special wall first and foremost, that is the whole reason I would want it on my team.

    Moreover, I have no idea why Rest would not be a primary option on CurseLax. The entire point of Curselax is to stick around along than four attacks Snorlax, and to be less weak to residual damage. CurseLax should be able to handle Zapdos all by itself over the course of a battle, and that requires Rest.

    I think I would use Body Slam as the primary option on every set, and then slash in Return on Choice Band Snorlax, I don't feel as strongly about that as about my other opinions, though. Crunch should definitely be the primary coverage move on CurseLax, nothing is more important than hitting Cofagrigus, considering how rare Cobalion is by comparison and how easily that is handled by Slowbro, the absolute best Snorlax partner.
  23. Nas

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    In regards to reach's last point, I just want to say that CB Snorlax needs Return to score OHKO's on many important offensive Pokemon. (Raikou Zapdos, Heracross, Flygon, and Kingdra come to mind) Of course there is the 30% paralysis chance, but with Body Slam, you also lose out on 2HKOing every major bulky water in the tier, which is something I would consider far more important.
  24. cim

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    I'm also chiming in to support Return on CB Snorlax. Yes you have coverage moves but often being able to just hit Return and knowing something will die or almost die is really useful. Body Slam on everything else.

    3 Attacks Curselax is frankly stupid. There are such a small number of Pokemon that take both boosted Return and Crunch well (Cobalion, Rhyperior, both of which are handled by Slowbro very well) and giving up recovery and bulk to try and "sweep" with one boost and three attacks is just dramatically ineffective.

    I also seriously doubt that Selfdestruct is ever actually useful.
  25. Ernesto

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    Okay, I've read everyone's opinion on the matter and participated in both of the discussion in IRC (though not very actively). Now I know there still are things conflicting here, mainly because what was set one night didn't appeal to reach and Jabba the following day, but I'd like to settle the matter.
    Here's what I'm proposing (I'd rather have two separate sets but I don't know what the rest thinks), with the EV spread still tbd, and trying to avoid the massive slashitis the previous CurseLax set had:

    name: CurseLax
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Body Slam (Return to AC, but it could be a slash I guess)
    move 3: Crunch / Earthquake
    move 4: Rest / Fire Punch (Selfdestruct to AC)
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Thick Fat
    nature: Adamant (Careful in AC)
    evs: 80 HP / 176 Atk / 92 Def / 160 SpD (lol at not noticing the extra 44 EVs in FB's spread)

    Body Slam and Crunch are good coverage, but it's not the same with BS + EQ or BS + FP, so if I'm using any of these I should have a third attacking move, otherwise Rest would be the only option in the last slot—I know koko said it should go to AC, but let's face it, it's very hard to pull off a Curse sweep without recovery, even with three-move coverage.

    I prefer offensive CurseLax, with a defensive spread in AC, since otherwise you're giving up on a lot of Attack to take special blows better. That could still be appealed, I guess.

    STAB Selfdestruct is incredibly powerful, even with the nerf, and it could prove to be useful in tourney matches where there are no ties, as I'm given to understand how recoil works. So it should be AC material on both Offensive and CurseLax, due to the ability to change a tide of a battle with one hit.

    And about reach's last point, though I myself prefer Body Slam unless I have solid paralysis support (which Slowbro and Slowking can provide), I have to agree with RT and chris that Return is otherwise a more powerful move, at least for the Offensive set. That's even more noteworthy when the things in UU that can absorb T-Wave won't like eating STAB Scalds (unless Lanturn becomes a thing, lol), at least until Lightningrod Zapdos and Volt Absorb Raikou are released.

    Thoughts?

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