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Snorlax (update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Crystal_, Dec 23, 2011.

  1. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    [Overview]

    <p>Snorlax is one of the most dominant and dangerous Pokemon in OU. Despite having the lowest Speed in RBY, only tied with Slowbro, Snorlax has one of the best stat distributions in the game, which, along with his powerful attacking options, lets Snorlax go one-on-one against almost every Pokemon in the game if he wants to. Add STAB Selfdestruct to the mix, and Snorlax will often be able to net you two kills. Snorlax is especially useful for capitalizing on a paralyzed Chansey and is one of the main reasons you may want to paralyze Chansey rather than go for the freeze in the first place. Snorlax is also the most versatile Pokemon in RBY due to its ability to use unexpected moves like Rest, Reflect, Amnesia, and Counter effectively. Snorlax is so good that he is often a brainless addition when making a RBY OU team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Fishlax
    move 1: Body Slam
    move 2: Hyper Beam / Surf
    move 3: Earthquake / Surf
    move 4: Selfdestruct

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is by far the most common Snorlax moveset, and thus, the moveset everybody expects when battling him. Body Slam is your main attack, and him hits most things that don't resist it, while having a 30% chance of paralyzing the opponent. Hyper Beam is a finishing move that will let Snorlax KO most things below 50% health. Your opponent may see Hyper Beam coming, but unless they have a Golem, Rhydon, or a healthy Pokemon with Counter, they will be hard-pressed to respond to it.</p>

    <p>Earthquake is mostly for Golem, Rhydon, and Gengar, all of which would otherwise take on mono-Normal Snorlax easily. It can also check for Counter on certain Pokemon, especially Chansey, who will KO you if you attack her with Body Slam. Surf is another popular choice to hit Golem and Rhydon, two of the best Snorlax switch-ins, a lot harder than Earthquake and usually KOes them after a Body Slam. However, if you drop Earthquake, Snorlax will be pretty worthless against Gengar and Counter Chansey; forgoing Hyper Beam will limit your offense against everything in general, especially towards the end of the game.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>On the defensive side, Rhydon and Golem are among the most common Snorlax switch-ins, so at least one Pokemon that can switch into them a few times, such as Exeggutor or Starmie, is recommended as a teammate unless Snorlax packs Surf. Other bulky Pokemon like Lapras, Cloyster, and Exeggutor may also switch into Snorlax, so Chansey, Alakazam, and/or Starmie will help to neutralize them. Alakazam, Chansey, and Starmie, as well as other Pokemon like Exeggutor and Slowbro, will also be able to spread some paralysis, which will speed up Snorlax's offense.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Amnesialax
    move 1: Amnesia
    move 2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 3: Body Slam / Thunderbolt
    move 4: Rest / Selfdestruct

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set works like Slowbro, but trades an Electric-type neutrality for a special STAB move and Thunder Wave. In match-ups against physical Pokemon, with Blizzard, you will only need to use Amnesia once, since 456 Special is usually enough to 2HKO Tauros and will always let Snorlax OHKO Rhydon and Golem, as well as 3HKO opposing Snorlax. Ice Beam can be useful against Chansey with Reflect or Counter; otherwise the extra PP is not needed, even if you are using Rest.</p>

    <p>Thunderbolt lets Snorlax take on Water-types more easily, especially Cloyster and Slowbro. Body Slam is his best move to fight Chansey, as Blizzard will quickly run of PP against it and Ice Beam fails to 3HKO; however, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt may also let Snorlax PP stall Chansey out of Softboiled as long as Snorlax doesn't get frozen beforehand. Body Slam also helps if Snorlax isn't able to get in a few boosts quickly enough, for example against Alakazam; unfortunately, if you do not opt to use Blizzard or Body Slam, Snorlax will fare worse in physical match-ups. Rest is the preferred move on this set to let Snorlax continue sweeping after set up, but you should watch out for your opponent predicting its use and going to a physical sweeper. Selfdestruct is a good, often unexpected option and especially useful for when Snorlax doesn't have time to set up.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A physical set with Rest is also viable. Rest often lets Snorlax survive a lot longer, especially after spreading some paralysis. However, its most rewarding use is shrugging off the attacks Chansey fires at Snorlax when switching into it and waking up against her, thus letting you come into Chansey more comfortably. Reflect is commonly used in this set, and protects Snorlax from physical sweepers like opposing Snorlax, Rhydon, Golem, and even Tauros while sleeping; it also halves the damage from Explosion.</p>

    <p>Using both Reflect and Amnesia in the same set in another possible combination. After setting up, only a high number of critical hits or double Explosions will beat a Snorlax with this set, so with some paralysis support and residual damage, it's very difficult for the opponent to take him down. However, depending on the damaging move you choose, there may always be something you will have difficulty getting past. Body Slam is preferable because it beats Chansey with regularity.</p>

    <p>Counter is rarely seen on Snorlax, but can be effective for match-ups with Tauros or Snorlax and for coming into predicted Hyper Beams from them. However, using it means dropping Hyper Beam, which will limit Snorlax's offensive power. Thunderbolt and Thunder will hit Cloyster harder, making them viable options if Wrap and similar moves are allowed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Snorlax is probably the second most difficult to wall Pokemon in OU after Tauros. Cloyster is probably the safest Snorlax switch-in. If you can paralyze Snorlax beforehand, Rest Cloyster will comfortably keep using Rest against Snorlax. However, Cloyster is 3HKOed by Thunderbolt and 2HKOed Thunder, but these moves are almost never seen on Snorlax, except on the Amnesia set. Lapras's and Articuno's physical bulkiness is slightly smaller, but with Rest they are also usually able to wall a paralyzed Snorlax. Slowbro has the ability to set up on Snorlax and can take Body Slams well. Golem and Rhydon can easily switch into a Body Slam, although paralysis will cripple them. These Rock-types will at least ensure Snorlax is not using Body Slam again, so you can switch out to something like Lapras or Exeggutor if you fear Surf. However, if Snorlax is indeed packing Surf, prediction is necessary if you want to use the Rock-type Pokemon. If Snorlax is using Surf over Earthquake, though, Gengar will easily be able to take on Snorlax.</p>

    <p>Paralysis will cripple Snorlax in general, making him easier to wall, but Chansey and Alakazam, the most common users of paralyzing moves, can't switch into Snorlax. However, if Snorlax switches into any of these Pokemon, staying in to paralyze him is advisable if their health is high. However, Alakazam can still set up Reflect and will usually win the match-up or force Snorlax out due to his low critical hit rate. If your opponent surprises you with an Amnesia set, your best bet is usually using Explosion or Selfdestruct on it with Pokemon such as Exeggutor, Golem, Gengar, or even your own Snorlax, unless you think you can take it down with, for example, Tauros or Snorlax before he can set up.</p>
  2. Hipmonlee

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    I think rest and reflect would be better as other options, the sets arent unique enough or really all that good..

    I would also like to see it be a little more explicit about Snorlax's ability to win one on ones. Particularly, how, thanks to self destruct and its HP, it can switch in and at least break even with almost everything most of the time..

    Maybe something about how its slowness makes it difficult to switch in when at lowish health.

    Oh yeah, and if you mention the switch in and break even thing, you could specifically mention tauros, since there arent many pokes that can switch into a ch bodyslam and survive the hyperbeam..
  3. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
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    changes in bold
  4. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Honestly, there is one set that is the most effective and clearly the most common by far, the other three are all in the same level imo. Anyway, is this really that big?, iirc some gen 4/5 analyses have around 6 different sets and a lot more stuff...

    I mentioned one on ones in the Overview, maybe a bit more in the Counters section? Nah idk, anyway, even if lax has a chance to win (trade) against stuff like Lapras, eggy, rocks etc, i wouldn't really stay in, since i can usually find another poke in my team to neutralize these bulky pokes (chansey, zam, starmie, eggy, etc). I usually just send Lax to capitalize on para'd Chansey, maybe para'd zam, or send him into weakened para'd stuff, usually when they're koed by beam, then save it for mid-late game for opposing Tauros/Snorlax matchups. But yea it's still nice for random things your team may not be able to play around easily (Zapdos, for example).

    The ability to "take on" tauros is true too, but idk, I'd just mention this in Tauros' counters sectoin or something.
  5. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    Two sets is actually on par with a lot of the BW analyses (bar shit like Terrakion but that's another story). From what I've played of RBY and from Hipmonlee's RBY article, there are standard sets for each Pokemon that usually are not shaken up (at least by noobs like me). I don't think there's a need for any more than three sets in the earlier gens. Maybe folks like cookie and Hip can back me up on this? Anyway, I really appreciate the length of this—not one-liners like the current analyses, but not nearly as long as some of the late DP ones. Also, if this is ready to be grammar edited then I stamp Cherub Agent's check...

    [​IMG]

    [GP 1/2]
  6. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Snorlax is actually the only poke with more than two sets. Chansey and maybe eggy/lapras, (and wrappers if we make one set with wrap and another with it banned) would have two, most others just one.

    btw, I'll be busy for the next 4 weeks, but I can start doing more analyses again in February, if nobody is going to update them for then.
  7. Earthworm

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    I'd remove the Rest set, I don't think I have ever seen it work. If you are going to use Rest, I think you are better off sticking to the Tank set. You could maybe slash EQ onto that set as well.
  8. Alan

    Alan

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    (From the counters section)

    Snorlax is probably the second most difficult to wall Pokemon in OU after Tauros. Cloyster is probably the safest Snorlax switch-in. If you can paralyze Snorlax beforehand, Rest Cloyster will comfortably rest loop against Snorlax, which will also allow him to shrug off the possible paralysis, thus making his Clamp threatening again.

    I don't see Rest being that effective. It just lets stuff get an agility or amnesia in on you and then you're just sitting there taking hits and/or getting crits. (That rhymed). Also can we call the surf one Fishlax. :(
  9. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Changed both words. Thanks.

    Agility is only used by Zapdos who should usually be just attacking anyway. And Amnesia is not really that common. The main problem is definitely Tauros.
  10. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
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    good god, this is long! I'll try and finish it tomorrow (I hope I don't forget).

    EDIT: finished this; it was an interesting read. I'm not an official GPer, but I'd prefer it if somebody else sifts through this as well. It is very likely that I have missed some small errors simply due to the huge size of this analysis.
  11. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Thanks, I'll edit it when I have time, but I'm pretty busy this month.
  12. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Faster pokemons have higher ch rate, and chs ignore reflect.

    Unless you are using Amnesia, you will only use the special move versus Golem/Rhydon, and Surf hits them a lot harder. Blizz covers Egg/Rock switches at the same time though, so it might be interesting, but is still generally inferior outside of amnesia.

    Also, whats wrong with "and/or"
  13. Badal

    Badal Shit
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    Breludicolo's check is quite solid.

    It is better to say "or" instead of saying "and/or" So just use or.

    A few nitpicks:
    -
    a few things (open)

    remove
    add

    copypastable (open)

    [SET]
    name: Standard
    move1: Body Slam
    move2: Hyper Beam / Surf
    move3: Earthquake / Surf
    move4: SelfDestruct

    <p>This is by far the most common Snorlax moveset, and the moveset everybody expects when battling him. Body Slam is your main attack, and it hits most things that don't resist it, while having a 30% chance of paralyzing the opponent. Hyper Beam is a finishing move that will let you KO most things below 50% health. Your opponent may see Hyper Beam coming, but unless they have a Golem, a Rhydon or a healthy Pokemon with Counter, they will be hard pressed to respond to it.</p>

    <p>Earthquake is mostly for Golem, Rhydon and Gengar, all of which would otherwise take on mono-normal Snorlax easily. It can also check for Counter on certain Pokemon, especially Chansey, who will KO you if you attack her with Body Slam. Surf is another popular choice to hit Golem and Rhydon, two of the best Snorlax switch-ins, a lot harder than Earthquake and usually KOes them after a Body Slam. However, if you drop Earthquake, Snorlax will be pretty worthless against Gengar and Counter Chansey; forgoing Hyper Beam will limit your offense against everything in general, especially towards the end of the game.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rest
    move1: Body Slam
    move2: Earthquake
    move3: Rest
    move4: Reflect / Selfdestruct

    <p>Rest often lets Snorlax survive a lot longer, especially after spreading some paralysis. However, its most rewarding use is shrugging off the attacks Chansey fires at Snorlax when switching into itand waking up against her, thus letting you come into Chansey more comfortably. Body Slam is your main attack, while Earthquake is for the aforementioned coverage.</p>

    <p>Reflect is the most common fourth move in this set and protects Snorlax from physical sweepers like opposing Snorlax, Rhydon, Golem and even Tauros while using Rest or sleeping ; it also halves the damage from Explosion. Reflect helps Snorlax take these physical sweepers on 1 on 1, being especially effective against the slow ones (Snorlax, Golem and Rhydon). However, Pokemon with strong special STAB, like Lapras, Exeggutor, Alakazam and Zapdos can still force Snorlax out, thus allowing physical sweepers to capitalize on it later while it sleeps. Selfdestruct is a great alternative and especially useful when you will barely survive the Rest loopand can quickly take out whatever you are facing. Hyper Beam is another option, though generally inferior, providing some extra power against weakened stuff without having to kill yourself.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Amnesia
    move1: Amnesia
    move2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move3: Body Slam / Thunderbolt
    move4: Rest / SelfDestruct

    <p>This set works like Slowbro, but trades an Electric-type neutrality for a special STAB move and Thunder Wave. In matchups against physical Pokemon, with Blizzard, you will only need to use Amnesia once, since 456 special is usually enough to 2HKO Tauros and will always let Snorlax OHKO Rhydon and Golem as well as 3HKO opposing Snorlax. Ice Beam can be useful against Chansey with Reflect or Counter; otherwise the extra PP is not needed, even if you are using Rest.</p>

    <p>Thunderbolt lets Snorlax take on Water-types more easily, especially Cloyster and Slowbro. Body Slam is his best move to fight Chansey, as Blizzard will quickly run of PP against it and Ice Beam fails to 3HKO; however, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt may also let Snorlax PP stall Chansey out of Softboiled as long as Snorlax doesn’t get frozen before. Body Slam also helps if Snorlax isn't able to get in a few boosts quickly enough, for example against Alakazam; unfortunately, if you do not opt to use Blizzard or Body Slam, Snorlax will fare worse in physical matchups. Rest is the preferred move on this set to let Snorlax continue sweeping after set up, but you should watch out for your opponent predicting its use and going to a physical sweeper. SelfDestruct is a good, often unexpected option and especially useful for when Snorlax doesn't have time to set up.</p>

    - Merge the two paragraphs in the Tank set
    - Merge the last two (if not three) paragraphs of the counters section

    After that, its good.
    [​IMG]
    GP 2/2
  14. Carl

    Carl or Varl
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    I'm probably too late on this one but here's my two cents...

    I agree that there's too many movesets listed. There should realistically be only two sets: the standard FishLax as the primary and an Amnesia set as the secondary. Those are the only two fundamentally different directions you can take with Snorlax - physical offense or special set up attacker. The "Rest" and "Tank" sets share similar concepts to the Fishlax and Amnesia listings and just use a different twist for preference. You could mention these additional moves in the comment paragraphs. Here's what I'd like to see:

    [SET]

    name: Standard / Fishlax
    move1: Body Slam
    move2: Hyper Beam / Surf
    move3: Earthquake / Surf
    move4: SelfDestruct

    Make mention of Rest and Reflect in the comments here as alternate options if you wish. Your Rest set option is now effectively covered here. It definitely doesn't need its own separate listing.

    [SET]

    name: Amnesia
    move1: Amnesia
    move2: Ice Beam / Blizzard / Body Slam
    move3: Reflect / Body Slam / Thunderbolt
    move4: Rest

    Make mention of Selfdestruct and maybe Hyper Beam as a potential other options. I'd say Ice Beam needs to be used with Reflect for PP purposes so highlight that. A quick paragraph about your Tank set could go here to elaborate on Body Slam being slashed in with the Ice attacks. Amnesia and Rest are the commonality between the Tank and Amnesia sets, it's all a matter of preference and team for how you fill in the last two moves.

    And that should be it for sets listed in my opinion.
  15. 420

    420

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    I think the extra slashes make things confusing and mislead people into using bad combinations (body slam + thunderbolt or blizzard + reflect). What we're really seeing here, correct me if I'm wrong, is three separate sets:


    Amnesia
    Rest
    Reflect
    Body Slam / (special attack if you want to go that route)

    Amnesia
    Blizzard
    Body Slam
    Rest / Selfdestruct

    Amnesia
    Ice Beam
    Thunderbolt
    Rest

    You could squish the last 2 into one set, but trying to combine all three into one general amnesia set is a mess.
  16. Carl

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    I would pull out Body Slam slashed in on the ice attack line and Thunderbolt then. I don't think the last 2 sets you mention are nearly as viable. At least not in my mind. I was trying to appease the original write up but most of these options could be listed in the notes below the set. I'd say the Amnesia set, for simplicity sake then, should be Amnesia/Rest/Reflect/Attack.
  17. Crystal_

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    I made 4 sets because they work behind a different concept. Physical SD and physical rest as well as amnesia and tank, are very similar i agree, but ultimately they are different, and need a different explanation. Idk, if this is really that long, but I made four sets to avoid slashing a lot of moves in the same moveslot so that people doesn't get confused, possibly thinking some bad combiantions are good. Pretty much what 420 said.

    Also, I'd say the most standard amnesia set is Body Slam, Blizzard, Rest, Amnesia.
  18. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    I dont think there is a need to go into every possible thing a Snorlax can do, just cover the standards in the sets, Carl's suggestions have way more slashes than are necessary:

    Fishlax
    BS
    EQ / Surf
    Hyperbeam
    Selfdestruct

    Amnesia:
    Amnesia
    Blizzard
    Bodyslam/Thunderbolt
    Rest

    Then something like
    Other Options:
    Reflect - can work with rest and maybe amnesia to make a formidable tank
    Counter -
    Rest - Lax has a lot more bulk than most things in rby

    I think most of the information in the other two sets is unnecessary for people with a basic familiarity with rby, like, saying reflect helps against physical sweepers for instance, everyone already knows that. And for beginners it is just unnecessarily confusing to suggest anything more than basic fishlax and amnesialax. I really think those two sets should be in other options..
  19. zarator

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    By the way, any reason the standard set is called "FishLax", instead of simply "Standard Snorlax"? I thought we decided to ditch these sort of names.
  20. Crystal_

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    Ok, so I could mention this in other options, and remove the rest and tank sets:

    A physical set with Rest is also viable. Rest often lets Snorlax survive a lot longer, especially after spreading some paralysis. However, its most rewarding use is shrugging off the attacks Chansey fires at Snorlax when switching into it and waking up against her, thus letting you come into Chansey more comfortably. Reflect is commonly used in this set, and protects Snorlax from physical sweepers like opposing Snorlax, Rhydon, Golem and even Tauros while sleeping; it also halves the damage from Explosion.

    Lastly, using both Reflect and Amnesia in the same set in another possible combination. After setting up, only a high number of critical hits or double Explosions will beat a Snorlax with this set, so with some paralysis support and residual damage, it's very difficult for the opponent to take him down. However, depending on the damaging move you choose, there may always be something you will have difficulty getting past. Body Slam is preferable because it beats Chansey with regularity.


    The text in red is also removeable imo, if this is still too long.
  21. Hipmonlee

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    The set has been called fishlax for well over 10 years, we shouldnt change that now. Fish invented it.
  22. Oglemi

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    Yeah Fishlax is the accepted term for the set, just as CroCune is still called CroCune etc.
  23. Crystal_

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    Ok, I will change the name, but tell me if you agree with post #20
  24. Hipmonlee

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    Looks pretty good to me.
  25. Crystal_

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    Ok, so I guess this is ready to be moved to the rby analysis site?

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