Snow Wall

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Zentrius, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. Zentrius

    Zentrius

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    97
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    Yup, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that hates this current metagame. Those annoying HO Sand teams that are pretty much consisting of CB Tyranitar + Sheer Force Landorus + Keldeo + Custap Skarm/Forre + Filler + Filler are just tiring.​
    But why Hail? Because Hail is such an underrated playstyle in this current metagame (granted, it's a shitty weather compared to both Sand and Rain, but it's still viable). For me this team is kind of like a big fat fuck you to the typical sand offense you see in like 99% of the battles you have in pretty much every simulator. I started off with Abomasnow because a hail team without Abomasnow it's shit. Then I went with the obvious choice: Latias, a great counter to Landorus, Keldeo and Thundurus-T. But Latias has a really hard time trying to wall both Landorus and Keldeo and the offensive pressure they both put on her is huge. Added Starmie as another reliable Keldeo counter, tanking everything even the EB boosted HP Bug/Electric/Ghost/Dark. So I had Abomasnow, Starmie and Latias. Went for Heatran because fuck Volcarona. Then I saw those 4 and I thought of Tyranitar which pretty much destroyed those 4 with Stone Edge alone. I went for Skarm to annoy it quite a bit and tank some random shit while sets up spikes. Skarm wasn't going to take down Tyranitar in itself tho, so I went and added Jirachi to straight up kill it with Iron Head and not only that, but Jirachi counters all of my team's troubles: Gengar, Alakazam, Lati@s, Reuniclus, Kyurem-B, defensive Celebi, etc. And with those 6 already chosen, here it is, Snow Wall!​
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    252 Atk / 144 SAtk / 112 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    Snow Warning
    Ice Shard | Blizzard | Wood Hammer | Hidden Power [Fire]
    • Ok I actually had a pretty hard time picking the right set for this thing. Should I go a stall kind of way and go for a clean Physical oriented SubSeed Set or should I go with a Scarf/EB Set? I went with the second one because in the long run this team gets raped by some Stall teams that have one pink blob that's pretty hard to kill even from the physical side. Some teams that do not have Chansey (Usually Sand Stall) are pretty much destroyed by this thing: Blizzard nails Hippo, HP Fire destroys Forre after SR, Wood Hammer demolishes Quagsire, Jelli etc. Ice Shard is for STAB priority and it's a pretty damn good move bluffed by the EB. The dragons are just waiting for this thing to get locked into HP Fire but the boom they get nailed by an EB boosted Ice Shard in the face. Abomasnow does a pretty good job at Revenge Killing actually, kills the dragons and fucks Landorus in the face.
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    252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    Flash Fire
    Lava Plume | Stealth Rock | Roar | Protect
    • I like to call this AntiStallTran. It's incredible how much this thing has swept those standard sand teams once Hippo/Landorus-T are down. You can just click roar and wait for something to take Hazard damage. Heatran does a pretty good job at checking Volcarona (except those with HP Ground, but those are nonexistent lol) and Sun Teams in general. Dugtrio is tricky to play, but I have Skarm and Latias so it's all good. Heatran's role in the team is actually pretty damn important: not only it sets the rocks up, but it also counters a bunch a threats to this team: Mainly Volcarona, Ninetales, Venusaur, Espeon, Xatu, Chandelure (lol), etc. Lava Plume is for STAB and you gotta love that 30% burn chance. Stealth Rocks are rock, Roar is for phasing and destroy stall teams and protect is to rack up weather damage and bluff choiced pokes.
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    252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spd
    Timid Nature
    Natural Cure
    Scald | Psyshock | Recover | Rapid Spin
    • Starmie is slowly becoming my favorite spinner in this meta and it's all thanks to it's typing: Water/Psychic typing is actually pretty good this metagame, tanking pretty big threats like Specs Toed, Scarf'd Keldeo, and some other things. Starmie is pretty much a must in all the hail teams I have made, it has great synergy with Abomasnow, has recover, resist both Fire and Fighting moves, and it has one of the best moves in the at it's disposal. With Scald, Starmie can eventually see anything but immunities to switch in and have a 30% burn chance, Psyshock is for the blobs (not really since it doesn't do anything to them lol), nails Gengar and Amoonguss, Recover is for recovery, and Rapid Spin needs no explanation.
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    252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    Levitate
    Substitute | Calm Mind | Dragon Pulse | Roost
    • Latias' job is pretty obvious: counters Sheer Force Landorus, Keldeo and Thundurus-T while it hasn't set up. With this set I can just sit the fuck down, set up sub and sweep the opponent unless it has Tyranitar, Jirachi and one of the blobs. Latias is pretty good this meta and you have to know why: her resistances are great, and while a Dark weakness hurts her a lot, Psychic-Type is actually a pretty good defensive type this metagame, resisting Fighting moves is great, specially in OU were every offensive poke pretty much carries at least 1 Fighting move coverage. Substitute is to avoid Leech Seed and Status, and it's hard to break Latias' sub. Calm Mind is to boost Latias already high special defenses and special attack to great levels, Dragon Pulse is the mandatory STAB, and roost is for recovery, and it's a great move in combination with Substitute.
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    252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Careful Nature
    Serene Grace
    Wish | Protect | Iron Head | Body Slam
    • Jirachi walls pretty much the 80% of the metagame that it's special oriented: Alakazam, Gengar, Lati@s, Celebi and some other special things have a pretty hard (if not impossible) time in breaking through Jirachi and the only one of those capable of doing so is Celebi with enough Nasty Plot boosts to nail Jirachi with Earth Power, thank god those are rare though. Jirachi's job is to wall the biggest threat other than Volcarona: Life Orb Latios. While I can revenge kill it with Abomasnow, it's just hard to deal with because it has near perfect coverage with Dragon Pulse and HP Fire alone. Wish is for semi recovery and Protect is to stall it, plus it works for the weather damage. Iron Head is for STAB and because it's amazing to flinch everything after Body Slam, which paralyzes the opposing poke.
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    252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    Sturdy
    Spikes | Whirlwind | Roost | Brave Bird
    • I actually had Gliscor here before Skarmory but I really miss those good ol' Spikes. Skarm walls pretty much every Dragon bar Salamence and Garchomp with Fire Blast, but both are destroyed by Abomasnow so it doesn't really matter. Spikes are entry hazards and stripping down the health of grounded pokemon slowly is good. Whirlwind is a phasing move, and it kind of fucks up BP teams. Roost is for recovery and Brave Bird is to not be taunt-bait, although I almost never use it unless I'm facing a Volcarona or Breloom and I predict those lol. Overall there isn't really much to say about Skarmory other than walling most physical attackers, sets up Spikes and then just kind of stays there until it dies lol.
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    Importable:
    Abomasnow @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 Atk / 144 SAtk / 112 Spd
    Lonely Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Blizzard
    - Ice Shard
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Spd / 240 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird
    - Whirlwind
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 Spd / 32 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Scald
    - Rapid Spin
    - Psyshock
    - Recover
    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Lava Plume
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar
    - Protect
    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Roost
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Substitute
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head
    - Wish
    - Protect
    Usatoday and Princess Bubblegum like this.
  2. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,967
    This is quite a nice stall team you have here, covering all your weaknesses rather nicely, props for using Jirachi on stall, I have been trying to fit it onto one right for a while.

    You have a few odd weaknesses though currently. Lucario seems to rip through this team, with maybe only Starmie and Latias checking it.

    One idea I have is to used a bulk grass type on this team over Latias, overall they check pretty much the same weaknesses to the team like Breloom, Keldeo, and Thundurus, but Amoonguss does it better and also counters non-Ice Punch Lucarios rather well. It is a toss up though, as you to lose the possibility to sweep with Latias, a check to various slower Pokemon like Garchomp and Hydregion, and it would leave you much weaker to Dugtrio teams. Still, it is something to maybe test out. Amoonguss isn't the only option to Celebi or Roserade can be toyed with to get Stealth Rocks or Spikes on another Pokemon, giving an open slot to Heatran or you to use something other Skarmory.

    I also highly suggest you use Toxic on Heatran, as Volcarona with spin support or Roost can ruin your day, it is nice to have an straight up way to kill it, also it would be very helpful against Jellicent.

    Good luck man.
  3. Jirachee

    Jirachee Pay attention to the fine print.
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    I really like this team! One thing I think you'll have issues with though is Rapid Spinners. As a stall team, you really can't afford to lose your hazards, especially against offensive teams, since stall is much easier to break in BW2 than in other tiers. Offensive teams tend to like using Starmie a lot these days, so you will probably have issues against these. More balanced teams or opposing stall could also become an issue you you can't maintain your hazards against them too, and since your team is stall itself well... you can't do much to prevent the opponent to switch in their, let's say, Tentacruel against your Skarmory. I think that having a spinblocker is crucial on stall teams. You should probably try out Jellicent over Starmie. Jellicent is a really good Pokemon since it absolutely destroys a lot of top threats like Keldeo or Choice Specs Politoed. A lot of teams can't touch it at all so you might get crucial burns against some teams, which is cool!

    While you lose your spinner here, which is very important, you can get rapid spin by using Forretress over Skarmory. While Forretress certainly is less good at handling Dragons, you can deal with them with Abomasnow I guess. Forre still Spikes and offers you great spin support. I think that these changes will improve your team a lot at very little cost!

    Another thing is that spdef Heatran + Jirachi is a very redundant combo. Quite honestly while they do check different things, like Alakazam and Gengar for Rachi and Volc for Heatran, they pretty much do the exact same thing. That will make them work poorly together and to be h0nest I think you're just wasting a lot of potential that way. One thing I always liked on stall was a reliable Choice Scarfer. That allows you to revenge kill fast offensive Pokemon very easily, and it gives you an option to clean late game. It serves as a nice panic button, and some Speed is always nice I guess. Try out a Choice Scarf set on Jirachi instead of your current spdef set. That fixes both of these issues very nicely, and Jirachi is one of the best scarfers in the metagame currently. I think it will make it much easier for you to play against offense!

    Jellicent's set should be specially defensive, as it's the best at spinblocking. Forretress should be well, the standard set. As for Jirachi, you should probably use Iron Head / Ice Punch / U-turn / Trick.

    good luck n_n
  4. Vertex

    Vertex

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    309
    Nice Stall Team!

    I'm not that much of a stall player, since I like to only play Bulky Offense, but I'll do my best. I went off and tested out this team, and I really like it! Because this team is ridiculously solid, I will give minor nitpicks. First of all, since I'm one who like variety, I generally don't like to have the same move twice in a team, so I suggest you switch Roost for Recover. This is my opinion, it depends if you like variety or a colorful move box better. Lol.

    Jokes aside, Skarmory should actually be running 28 Speed Effort Values, since they outpace Speedy Wobbeffut and opposing 24 Speed Skarmory. The speed creep is always nice. Next, Bulky Starmie wants to OHKO Gengar with Psyshock, so run 8 Special Attack EVs to OHKO all those 4 Def Gengar without fail. You may think its useless since hail damage puts jack over it, but its nice when you don't have hail up, or it's a different weather condition. Also, you should make all your Pokemon's HP odd since you can switch into Stealth Rock the max # of times as well as Spikes, hail, and Toxic Damage. It's really great and it comes at no extra cost (unless its Gliscor or Gengar, of course).

    For your Abomasnow set, you should stay with Expert Belt, since this team has no Choice Scarf user to revenge kill Dragon-types. As Jirachi said, Jellicent is like a staple on all stall teams, but you should try going for Sableye instead, OU's second premier spinblocker. Sableye gives an awesome priority Will-O-Wisp which lets you put jack over physical sweepers like Scizor for example which like wrecks this team. Sableye also has priority Recover which is cool and a nice, as well as priority Taunt which is awesome. The last move is for your choice. I prefer Night Shade for consistent damage, but Foul Play and Snarl work too.

    Now, Latias is some freakin' bulky Mohawk, but try out Latios over your Latias. Since it's your check to common playstyle and is like a Bulky sweeper, a simple change in stats would be nice to pack the punch this team would love to get past. Below, I prepare you a list of calculations of the difference between Latias and Latios's power.

    +1 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 201-237 (76.71 - 90.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 4 SpA Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 280-330 (106.87 - 125.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.25%) -- 60.23% chance to 3HKO
    +2 4 SpA Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 122-144 (35.67 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Honestly, you'll most likely have more hazards on the field, and since most people predict Latios as a killer Draco Meteor, they'll send out something that can set-up on it and can take a Draco Meteor like Bulky Volcarona, giving you the ability to crush there dreams. These calculatios are minor, but if you do some more, the hazards lets you put crap all over the unresisted metagame like 2HKOing Chansey at about +3, whereas Latias need +4 to even have a chance. Since your running max HP on both, Venasaur never OHKOes with Sludge Bomb which is beast and 110 SpD isn't too shabby either.

    Good Luck! Hope I could help!

    Summary of Changes
    • Make all your 'mons HP odd
    • Latias
      • Change to Latios (Just the Pokemon)
    • Starmie
      • Change to Sableye
    • Starmie
      • 8 SpA
    • Skarmory
      • 28 Spe
  5. C05ta

    C05ta

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2009
    Messages:
    109
    This is a very solid stall build, and I think with a few changes it has the potential to become a standard build for competitive stall in bw2. It uses the special backbone of jirachi+latias that I think has the potential to really shut down the special meta if(when) landy gets banned. Unfortunately I'm typing on my iPad so my rate isn't going to be as in-depth as your team deserves, but it will cover all the changes I think your team needs.

    So first of all, I'll hit the big change I want to see:
    Scarf-Tyranitar over Abomasnow:
    While the rates thus far have talked about the lack of a spin blocker, scarf tar allows you to trap the omni-present starmie, and maim Tentacruel to where it will not be able to spin multiple times. The change of weather also opens up your team to some smaller changes which will make the team more effective as a whole. The standard scarf-tar set will work here. (Again sorry about iPad struggles)

    And now for the small things:
    -You really can't afford to have starmie be pursuit trapped, so I'm going to recommend changing to the anti-meta reflect type starmie build. Which coverage move you drop is based on preference, but I'd recommend keeping scald just for the burn potential you'll get on the switches it causes.
    -Rocky Helmet can be used on Skarmory over leftovers. It really is the best way to shut down volt-turn, as scizor will suffer heavy damage each time it tries to turn. You could potentially run shed shell, but with 3 steels I don't think drag-spam will be too big of an issue.

    With those changes in mind, I think heatran also has the potential to be replaced. Between latias/jirachi/starmie the only thing you really "need" it for is volcarona. However, since he carries SR it's a tough replace. If you're comfortable playing with it, scarfchomp with SR would be an interesting choice (you could also run it on t-tar so you don't have to force a set-up). But if you wanted to play more conventionally, standard bulky landorus-t could lay rocks and take on terrakion which Skarmory has issues with (granted you can revenge it with scarf tar/latias/starmie, none of those are a safe switch-in by any means). The momentum gained from u-turn can really punish an opponent once hazards are down, and also offer latias a chance to set-up against a rotom-w or other bulky water switch-in. While you'll be relying on stone miss, volcarona really isn't seen that much on the higher end of the ladder. Heatran is definitely a viable option, but I think a more physically based option helps your team on the whole. I'll take being volc weak over being terrakion weak any day of the week.

    Also in terms of threats, any team with rotom-w + band tar will rip you a new one, which kind of sucks. If you want to try reflect type over sub on Latias it may not be the worst thing. Other rotom-w counters can't really find a place on this team (read: gastro needs SR, celebi overlaps too much with latias, roserade makes it too hard to put rocks on your team). D-tail Kyurum-b would actually do pretty well in the last spot but you'd still have that terrakion issue and you'd be hard pressed to find a spot to lay SR.

    Best of luck, and I hope you take the time to try out my suggestions. While you lose your hail, you switch to a build which can take on pretty much any team match-up.

    Edit: Try this build:
    Reflect Type Starmie + Spdef Jirachi + CM Latias + ScarfTar + Standard Ferrothorn + Landorus-T

    It covers basically everything your last team had a problem with while still maintaining your special core.

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