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LC Snubbull

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Goddess Briyella, Dec 27, 2013.

  1. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    Overview
    ########
    Snubbull is one of the few Little Cup Pokemon that changed drastically with the new generation—it underwent a complete type change from Normal to Fairy, wiping its slate clean and giving it brand new strengths, advantages, and weaknesses. This often overlooked GSC Pokemon is not the punching bag for Fighting-types that it used to be, as it is now back with a vengeance against them in the form of a type advantage, as well as an advantage against Dark- and Dragon-types. Its STAB Play Rough brings the pain with great neutral coverage, and Earthquake scores a hard super effective hit against the vast majority of Pokemon that resist Fairy-type attacks. Other high-powered move options available to Snubbull include Close Combat and Crunch, and combined with Intimidate as well as incredible support options such as Heal Bell to serve as a cleric and Thunder Wave to slow down enemies, it demands respect this time around. With this awesome makeover that Snubbull has received for XY, Little Cup welcomes back this bulky attacker as a force to be reckoned with.

    Snubbull Trouble
    ########
    name: Snubbull Trouble
    move 1: Play Rough
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Close Combat / Crunch
    move 4: Thunder Wave / Bulk Up
    ability: Intimidate
    item: Eviolite / Berry Juice
    evs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
    nature: Adamant

    Moves
    ========

    Play Rough is the obligatory hard-hitting physical STAB attack, smacking most of the tier at least neutrally, and has the additional chance of lowering the target's Attack stat. As for the Fire-, Steel-, and Poison-types that resist Fairy, Earthquake hits all three of them for super effective damage and therefore provides perfect coverage, with very few exceptions. Close Combat is a very powerful Fighting-type option that hits a massive amount of Pokemon for super effective damage, but Crunch can be used to take a huge bite out of Gastly and Bronzor, two Pokemon that wall Fairy + Ground coverage by grace of the Levitate ability. Crunch also lets Snubbull have an easier time against Slowpoke, a notable physical wall. With its sheer power, access to the Intimidate ability to neuter opposing physical attackers, and access to high-powered attacks, Snubbull will be forcing a lot of switches, and thus has opportunities to spread status with Thunder Wave, which makes its enemies even easier to break down. Alternatively, Snubbull can utilize Bulk Up to become a physical juggernaut while taking advantage of the free turn provided by a fleeing foe.

    Set Details
    ========

    The given EV spread with Intimidate as the ability and Eviolite as the held item allow Snubbull to tank hits on both physical and special attackers, while still maintaining a formidable offensive presence. An Adamant nature is the optimal choice for achieving the highest immediate power possible, and Snubbull doesn't need Speed being the big bulky attacker it is, as it can take a lot of hits and is slower than most things anyway. However, because it only takes 36 EVs to raise its Speed by a stat point, they are used in this set to bring Snubbull high enough to outspeed certain slower Pokemon such as Bronzor and Spritzee. Berry Juice is an option over Eviolite to allow for safer playing before it activates and basically offers 20 extra HP, helping Snubbull restore its lost health whereas it otherwise cannot, and helping it maintain momentum just once if it happens to switch into a painful super effective attack by mistake. Berry Juice is always the optimal item if Bulk Up is used over Thunder Wave, as Snubbull is unable to recover health otherwise after setting up.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Fighting-, Dark-, and Dragon-types stand absolutely no chance against Snubbull (an exception being specially oriented Croagunk), especially Scraggy, which now suffers a 4x weakness to Fairy-type moves. Notable is the fact that Snubbull is one of the few Pokemon that can force out Murkrow thanks to its offensive presence, at which point Snubbull can safely use Thunder Wave or Bulk Up, depending on the set. Intimidate turns Snubbull into a huge physical tank that can check other physically inclined Pokemon without even having a type advantage against them. It must wary of Poison- and Steel-type attacks, especially on the special side, as it cannot take those very well. Defiant Pawniard walks all over Snubbull if Intimidate activates its Defiant ability, as Pawniard easily outspeeds and a +1 Iron Head from it is a clean OHKO on Snubbull, regardless of the item chosen; thankfully, switching into Snubbull is a huge risk for Pawniard and Intimidate doesn't activate in this scenario.

    Team Options
    ========

    Lickitung with Wish and Toxic is an invaluable partner for Snubbull, as Snubbull can cover Lickitung's sole weakness to Fighting and Lickitung can soften up Snubbull's enemies as well as keep both itself and Snubbull alive. Pawniard makes for a good teammate as well, as it can take the Poison- and Steel-type attacks aimed at Snubbull with ease, while Snubbull sponges the Fighting-type attacks aimed at Pawniard, forming not only a formidable offensive core but also one that covers all of the important weak points of the two. Inkay is the only Pokemon in the tier whose STABs score super effective damage on all three Pokemon in the tier that wall Fairy + Ground coverage: Bronzor, Gastly, and Koffing. Other Pokemon that can cover Snubbull's weaknesses well are Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, Honedge, and Frillish, as well as Ground-types such as Hippoppotas and Drilbur. An ideal Steel-type partner aside from the aforementioned Pawniard and Honedge is Magnemite, a bulky Pokemon that can trap and deal with the opposing Steel-types that might give Snubbull problems.

    Offensive Support
    ########
    name: Offensive Support
    move 1: Play Rough
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Heal Bell
    move 4: Thunder Wave
    ability: Intimidate
    item: Eviolite / Berry Juice
    evs: EVs: 116 HP / 196 Def / 196 SpD
    nature: Careful

    Moves
    ========

    This set has the same basic offensive functions, but has even greater bulk and also serves as a reliable supporter for its team. Play Rough and Earthquake provide near-perfect coverage for Snubbull as far as attacking moves are concerned, and Heal Bell is used to keep both Snubbull and its team free of annoying status afflictions that can limit the team's potential. Thunder Wave is added to cripple foes and put them at a Speed disadvantage, and when combined with Heal Bell, it gives Snubbull the effective role of keeping the opponent's team riddled with status while keeping it off its own, while also maintaining a respectable offensive stance.

    Set Details
    ========

    A Careful nature and the given EVs with Eviolite give Snubbull an incredibly bulky defensive spread of 24 / 21 / 21, with Intimidate further helping it with taking hits on the physical side as always. No Attack investment is required for this particular set's purpose, as Snubbull already naturally hits hard and has its trademark near-perfect coverage with Play Rough and Earthquake. This set also has no Speed investment, but with Thunder Wave as one of its disruptive options, Snubbull will be outspeeding most of its switch-ins regardless.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    With the huge array of Fighting- and Dark-type attacks flying around the tier, it is beyond easy to find an opportunity to get Snubbull in to clear status for its team or spread paralysis onto the opponent's team. After the opposing team is weakened mid-game or later in the match, there are many opportunities to get in an attack if Thunder Wave and Heal Bell are not practical at the time, as Fairy + Ground coverage is so good and gets a super effective hit on a huge amount of foes, notably Mienfoo, Tyrunt, Scraggy, Vulpix, Meditite, and Murkrow.

    Team Options
    ========

    Eviolite Mienfoo with U-turn is an incredible teammate to get Snubbull in safely, and also threatens Pawniard and other Steel-types that give Snubbull a hard time after it knocks out a foe. Ground-types such as Drilbur make for excellent partners since they directly threaten the Steel- and Poison-types that can hurt Snubbull with their STABs. Abra easily gets rid of Koffing if it's an issue. Ferroseed forms an incredible defensive core with Snubbull, with both of them covering each other's weaknesses and both dishing out crippling moves. Anything that appreciates paralysis support is happy to have Snubbull on its team; slower Pokemon such as Timburr as Munchlax really appreciate the Speed advantage.

    Other Options
    ########
    Snubbull has the bulk to use RestTalk, but partnering it with a bulky Wish support is generally a better option to keep it alive and able to use the moves it wants 100% of the time, as well as to have better synergy and more attacking options. Ice Punch is good for coverage, but it is unfortunately incompatible with Play Rough and therefore not worth running. There are the elemental Fang attacks as well as Super Fang; Ice Fang can be used as an alternative to Ice Punch as it is legal with Play Rough, although the power drop is very noticeable. Snubbull actually has an incredible special movepool that includes Hyper Voice, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Overheat, and Solar Beam, but it doesn't have the Special Attack to make good use of them and thus they are generally not worth using. Power-Up Punch can work as a Fighting-type attack that can also be used to raise Snubbull's power while forcing switches, but Bulk Up is a better option for getting boosts in that manner and Close Combat is generally better for its more immediate power. Bulldoze can also be used as a Ground-type attack to slow down checks on the switch-in and can be great late-game, but Earthquake is more reliable because of the great deal more power it provides. Counter can be used to surprise physical attackers that go for the kill against Snubbull, but it likely won't have the health after using it to survive another hit, and if Snubbull uses Counter with Berry Juice, it will only get one chance to pull it off successfully. Rattled can be used to patch up Snubbull's Speed problem if you can switch it in against a Dark-, Bug-, or Ghost-type attack, but the fact that it doesn't hit 14 Speed even with Jolly nature makes this impractical, as it can't reach a decent Speed tier even if it gets the boost.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Steel-types**: Earthquake and Close Combat do help Snubbull a lot with hitting the Steel-types that hurt it, but they can still be problematic in some cases. Pawniard OHKOes any Snubbull set regardless of Eviolite after getting to +1 (Intimidate followed by Defiant), but cannot reliably switch in or OHKO Snubbull from full health without this boost. Bronzor resists Play Rough, is immune to Ground, and can threaten Snubbull with its STAB Flash Cannon, but must be wary of switching into Crunch; Bronzor can reliably use Snubbull as setup bait if it lacks Crunch. Ferroseed is a decent check that doesn't mind being paralyzed too much, especially as it further increases of the power of its super effective STAB Gyro Ball, but must be wary of Close Combat.

    **Physical Walls**: Snubbull can break down a good many physical walls, but there are a couple of notable ones that it can't hit for super effective damage or outlast throughout battles, including Spritzee, a fellow Fairy that can tank Snubbull's attacks while healing constantly with Wish and hitting Snubbull with repeated shots of Moonblast. It can also heal itself while setting up with Calm Mind. Physically defensive Slowpoke can take just about anything from either set bar Crunch and threaten Snubbull with Thunder Wave; Scald also ruins the Snubbull Trouble set due to its burn chance.

    **Fairy-resistant Pokemon with Levitate**: In addition to the previously mentioned Bronzor, there are two other Pokemon in the tier that wall the combination of Fairy and Ground. Koffing resists Play Rough, is immune to Earthquake, resistant to Close Combat, and doesn't take much from Crunch; it can threaten Snubbull with STAB Sludge Bomb and ruin the Snubbull Trouble set with Will-O-Wisp. Gastly resists Play Rough and is immune to Earthquake and Close Combat, and annihilates Snubbull with its STAB Sludge Bomb, but must be wary of switching into Crunch or Thunder Wave.

    **Burn Status**: While the offensive support set doesn't mind it too much, anything with Will-O-Wisp ruins the attacking power of the Snubbull Trouble set, examples being Misdreavus, Ponyta, and Growlithe. Larvesta is a Will-O-Wisp user that can decently wall both sets, being a Fire-type that takes only neutral damage from Earthquake, and it even gets U-turn to maintain momentum as Snubbull flees to avoid being burned. The countless Water-types that have Scald also present this problem to Snubbull, and with the generous 30% burn rate it has, it's usually not a good idea to let Snubbull take repeated hits from Scald.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
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  2. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    • Mention Ice Fang as an alternative to Ice Punch, since it is legal with Play Rough.

    I have a bit of an issue with Pawniard being listed in c&c. Yea it OHKO's when it's +1... but that's assuming Snubbull is switching into Pawniard (which is obviously a bad idea). If Pawniard switches into Snubbull, it will only be at +0 because Snubbull's Intimidate does not activate when Pawniard switches in. Plus, Pawniard takes quite a lot of damage from Close Combat / Earthquake anyways.

    Also, I like Berry Juice a lot more than Eviolite on Snubbull. Reason being Snubbull has no recovery, so Berry Juice helps Snubbull survive a lot longer than Eviolite does. Even without Eviolite, it's pretty hard for a Pokemon to OHKO Snubbull on the physical side, so Eviolite doesn't even save you from surviving many OHKO's, which would be the primary reason to use Eviolite over Berry Juice if you don't have recovery. Life Orb Bunnelby doesn't even OHKO unless you have SR (and then it only OHKO's 1/16 of the time).


    Snubbull is an awesome pkmn :toast:
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
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  3. macle

    macle ribbit
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  4. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary
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    The EVs on both sets seem inefficient. Both spreads deliver 24 HP, which increases damage taken from SR. Lowering the HP EVs down to 36 should work better. After doing that, on the first set, the SDef should use 196 EVs and a Careful nature. As for the second set, the best option seems to be 36 into Atk and Spe for the leftover EVs.
  5. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    Taking Stealth Rock slightly better is not worth the expense of lowering Snubbull's offensive power and ability to take physical hits, especially since Stealth Rock is easily removed and Gligar is already in Team Options, and Snubbull isn't weak to Stealth Rock anyway.
  6. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary
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    That's true, I didn't think about that.

    I was pondering earlier about how Ice Punch is illegal with Play Rough. Theoretically, you could breed a Snubbul in gen 5 with any egg moves you want, teach it Ice Punch at a move tutor, and then transfer it to XY to teach it Play Rough via level up. Am I perhaps overlooking something?
  7. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    You can't get Play Rough until level 37, and if you try to breed a Snubbull with Play Rough to get a Level 5 Play Rough Snubbull (aka lc legal), it won't be able to get Ice Punch.
  8. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary
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    Well that's quite obvious. That's too bad, Gligar wouldn't be much of a problem otherwise.
  9. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    • Spreads need to be for Smogon and not PS!. In other words, 196 Atk / 116 HP / 36 Def / 116 SDef / 36 Spd should be 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe, in that order.
    • There are quite a few more checks that need to be mentioned: Berry Juice Magnemite, Ferroseed, Slowpoke are just a few that come to mind.
    I can definitely tell you've done your work here though so I approve, QC 2/3
  10. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    Updated and awaiting a third QC!
  11. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    umm whats the difference between the first set and the second set. the only difference i see is one set uses heal bell and is bulkier because you want to kepe it alive a little longer for it to be a cleric. everytime i ran snubbul i just used the first set except heal bell in the last moveslot... is there a reason as to why its not just one set? i would honestly just combine it and slash heal bell on the last move AND on the Close combat move slot. snubbul is an amazing cleric and otherwise despises burn and wants a cleric on the team. might as well just let it be the cleric lol.

    also for team options please mention lickitung for wish support. snubbull loves the health boost and it cant take the physical fighting moves aimed at licki while licki takes every special attack like carvanha's hydro pump (LOL DTC)

    checks and counters

    honedge is incredibly bulky and doesnt care about paralysis.
    most fire types have fun with snubbull. ponyta larvesta and growlithe are all bulky as hell. also houndour just murders snubbul though it can never come in.

    dont wanna stamp because the first comment so just talk to me whenever you can!
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  12. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    The first set has Attack investment and Adamant nature with the option of running Bulk Up with Berry Juice. The second set has no Attack investment, with all EVs in bulk, and Careful nature with Heal Bell. They function very differently. A cleric has no use for Bulk Up if it's already running 2 attack moves that give perfect coverage.

    Lickitung is already in the Team Options and Earthquake demolishes every Fire type you mentioned, while they can't hit back super effectively. Honedge is also easily 2HKOed by Earthquake and cannot safely switch in because of that and the fact that it is slower no matter what.

    Omg prem did you read ;_; lol

    And how does Houndour murder Snubbull?
  13. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    so im really tired. and honestly just missed the lickitung thing. i reread to make sure it was there and just couldnt find it idk sorry.

    larvesta is definately a good check to snubbull. other fire types i i was confused on stuff but we already talked about it, so just add larvesta to the thing.

    mention how honedge gets one free turn cause of berry juice, which could be a problem at some point. obviously a weak check but one nonetheless.

    [​IMG]

    3/3
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  14. Darkamber8828

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    Really no mention of Resttalk? It's the only recovery Snubbull has, and it gets worn down a lot with all the Intimidating it has to do. Resttalk is cool because you don't need to be awake to switch in and Intimidate stuff. Play Rough / [Hell Bell / Earthquake / Roar] / Rest / Sleep Talk deserves at least a mention, if not a full set.
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  15. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    Thank you for bringing this up. Although it's generally more reliable to partner with Wish Lickitung to keep Snubbull alive and able to use the moves it wants 100% of the time, I'll give RestTalk a special mention in Other Options. ♥
  16. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    This has been written in paragraph form and is awaiting a final QC check!
  17. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte The Great Stone Dragon
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    OVERVIEW:

    "This often overlooked GSC Pokemon is not the punching bag for Fighting-types it used to be, as now Snubbull is back with a vengeance in the form of a type advantage, one that it also has against Dark- and Dragon-types."

    - Add the resistance to Fighting-types, as that's a lot more relevant than beating Dragon-types so deserves to be mentioned


    FIRST SET:

    Usage Tips

    - Just want you to add in here that Intimidate and Snubbull's overall bulk make it a great physical tank in general, and can be used to check a lot of offensive threats due to the fact that Pokemon that can hit it super effectively are rare. It can check a lot of things besides the Pokemon it has type advantages against.


    Team Options

    - Add a bit less specificity in this section because your goal is to provide general traits that certain Pokemon need to have in order to partner up with Snubbull, so as to provide the reader with the greatest amount of options possible.
    - So basically, along with what you already have, add:
    -- Wish passers such as Licki being useful because they heal it. Licki'd heal bell also deserves a mention.
    -- Pokemon that handle Steel and Poison well- such as Ghost-types (name some, Missy, Gastly, Honedge) Ground-types (Gligar, Drilbur) Steel-types (Pawniard, Honedge, Magnemite can trap)


    SECOND SET:

    Set Details

    - Throw in a mention that no Atk investment is required because you naturally hit hard and with near perfect coverage


    Team Options

    - Really same as above, except include more defensive partners because is more of a defensive set.
    - Ferroseed needs a mention; hazards + leech seed recovery+ type synergy make it a great partner
    - Don't forget Wish support!
    - Offensive partners that appreciate TWave support- Timburr, Regen Tang, Pawniard


    Everything else looks great. Nice work, Goddess Briyella!

    Implement everything I covered and this is

    QC Approved


    GP note: there is always a space between [section name]======= and the text. ie:

    Moves
    =========

    yadda yadda

    Be sure to fix that before GP.
  18. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    just noting that Treecko also said he wanted to check this before GP
  19. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    Why do people keep telling me to add Wish Lickitung to Team Options when I had it there from the start lol omg learn to read please

    I've added the final changes. I'm going to give this over to GP now unless Treecko would like to add input.
  20. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Checks and Counters needs to be in threatlist form. See here to get an idea how to dothat.
  21. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella Nido Goddess: Sheer Force & 2 Life Orbs
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    Oh, Ray Jay & Electrolyte, another thing. The space below the ======== line breaks only apply in some areas according to Seven Deadly Sins's example template. In most sections there is no space below the line break and Electrolyte, you asked that I put spaces under them all and it's confusing since now I'm asked to abide by the template.
  22. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    don't worry about spacing for now focus on the other larger parts of the format (such as putting Checks and Counters in list form :D)
  23. Goddess Briyella

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    Done. This is the first analysis I've ever written lol does that part look fine now?
  24. Goddess Briyella

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    Okay, I spoke with Ray Jay in PM and Treecko on IRC and they say the analysis is good to go!

    This is ready for GP! ♥
  25. Minus

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    Amateur Check
    Addition
    Deletion
    Comments
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
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