1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

So Long, Lonesome [Final Team Retirement]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by WillSO, Apr 23, 2012.

  1. WillSO

    WillSO

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    100
    [​IMG]
    Yes, this team was created whilst listening to Explosions in the Sky

    At A Glance.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Introduction.
    I've had a lot of fun with this team (and variations of it) for about the past two years. It's changed a lot over this time and even had an RMT dedicated to it in a previous life. Since then it's been adapted a lot, and although it looks similar, it is played far differently. This team, although basically categorized as Bulky Offence, plays a lot like a Hyper Offensive team. I like to play aggressively and control the match, forcing the other player into mistakes. Due to the bulky nature of the team combined with numerous resistances, I can afford to make dangerous switches to threaten the opponent at regular intervals which puts me at an advantageous position.

    Though I feel at home with this team, and this is more a retirement than anything else, I feel it can still grow (even through a dying metagame) and continue to thrive for those wanting to pick it up.

    In Detail.

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Metagross @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP/40 Atk/216 SpDef
    Adamant nature (+Atk,-SpAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Explosion
    - Meteor Mash
    - Stealth Rock


    Metagross is a pretty standard lead and it's actually very effective at what it does. In general, Metagross can lay down the all-important Stealth Rock early in the game and put my team into a good offensive position. Very few common leads can OHKO it or reliably beat it. If played smartly, Metagross can be brought out again midgame to apply a strong physically offensive presence. Huge physical bulk allow him can be used as a catch-all check to a physical sweepers which can then be Exploded opon. Priority in the form of Bullet Punch also let's Metagross fulfil some revenge-killing tasks should it be necessary. His -Steel STAB comes in particular use when faced with Tyranitar. Meteor Mash is chosen over Earthquake because it's STAB and has that chance to raise Atk by one stage. I don't feel I miss out much, occasionally I wish I could hit Infernape or Heatran with it, but really Metagross has no business staying in on either of them.
    I chose a specially defensive EV spread for Metagross because I feel it offers more than the general 'max hp - max atk' spread. With this spread, Metagross can switch in on resisted special hits far easier and retains the exact same physical bulk. This allows Metagross to be preserved far easier until mid to late game where the priority and explosion can be very useful. It's also useful should my Stealth Rock be spun away, Metagross can come back and set it up again. Spinner Starmie manages a meagre 24.7% - 29.1% (Surf) against my Metagross so I can afford to switch in at least twice with ease. Although an unusual set, SpDef Lead Metagross is extraordinarily good.

    Lead Strategy (open)

    [​IMG] Azelf
    Most times I'll go for Meteor Mash followed by Bullet Punch. Azelf is a bit pesky though, it runs a whole bunch of viable lead sets. However, with the SpDef spread I use, even Life Orb Fire Blast fails to OHKO.
    [​IMG] Machamp
    Pretty easy lead. Meteor Mash 2HKO's while I take the Dynamicpunch reasonably and cure confusion with Lum.
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    Again, not difficult. Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch will kill it and Earthquake won't even 2HKO. Sometimes Meteor Mash can miss which is annoying, but Bullet Punch 2HKO so I can always use that instead.. Normally I like going with Meteor Mash to chance the Attack raise.
    [​IMG] Metagross
    Set up Stealth Rock as Earthquake won't OHKO me. From there I can switch to Rotom to completely wall it.
    [​IMG] Swampert
    Pretty much similar to Metagross, though I might risk switching to Shaymin to get off a Seed Flare - misses and Ice Beams are annoying, but it doesn't 2HKO and I have instant recovery.
    [​IMG] Infernape
    Dicks all over Metagross, but switching to Heatran on the first turn to absorb either Fake Out or a -Fire STAB is fine, followed by Rotom to take the -Fighting STAB or U-turn. Hydro Pump for the OHKO unless it's Sash, then react accordingly. If he uses Fire Blast, go to Starmie and Thunderbolt finish it off and catch a possible -Water type switch in. If U-turn, switch accordingly.
    [​IMG] Heatran
    Ugh, straight to Starmie because Earth Power will fuck Heatran up. Hydro Pump and Spin away later.
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    Stay in and Stealth Rock or switch to Heatran on the U-turn or Trick. Force it out with the threat of Fire Blast and Earth Power or Roar, depending on how my mood is.
    [​IMG] Roserade
    Another pain. Stay in with Metagross, take the Sleep Powder with Lum or take the HP Fire with my SpDef Gross, Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch. Alternatively I can switch to Heatran.
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    Ugh I hate Hippowdon leads as normally they're paired with Blissey and this team doesn't exactly appreciate Blissey. Switch to Shaymin and Seed Flare on the obvious Blissey. Play from there...
    [​IMG] Starmie
    The most problematic lead for me to face. No real set strategy as of yet, generally it's outpredict my opponent and fire off a lucky Seed Flare from Shaymin or Thunderbolt from Rotom.
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    Another asshole. Meteor Mash followed by Bullet Punch, or switch to Starmie and threaten the Ice Beam but Thunderbolt the incoming switch.
    [​IMG][​IMG] Gliscor
    Shaymin straight away. Taunt, Stealth Rock and Earthquake do nothing to Shaymin whilst it can HP Ice it for the OHKO.
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    Meteor Mash 2HKO's most variants, if they're going to Earthquake me I may as well go to Shaymin and Earth Power or Seed Flare, or even Rotom if I'm ballsy and Hydro Pump.
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    Straight to Starmie, doesn't mind Taunt obviously, can Thunderbolt it and Spin away later.
    [​IMG] Forretress
    Heatran to force it out with -Fire STAB. Normally I don't like to reveal my Flygon til later.



    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP/216 Spd/40 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover
    - Thunderbolt


    Standard spinner Starmie with a few twists. Firstly, 40 EVs move from Speed to Special Attack and I use Hydro Pump over Surf. I'll get onto these changes later.
    As this teams bulky -Water type, Starmie is relied on a lot for checking all sorts of threats, namely Heatran, Gyarados, Suicune etc. Despite it's middling defenses, the combination of EV investment, typing and instant recovery in the form of Recover allow Starmie to generally last til the end of the game. Functioning as my Rapid Spinner, Starmie is also pretty important vs opposing stall teams. Due to Starmie's offensive presence, it lures Blissey like nothing which allows a free spin. Should the opponent switch to Rotom-A, this is where 40 SpA and Hydro Pump comes in. It's a 2HKO. So unless Rotom-A is Scarfed, I'm free of a spinblocker so I can spin away at ease.
    I chose Thunderbolt over Ice Beam on this set because Shaymin and Heatran combined already handle Dragons quite well and Thunderbolt beats bulky waters that like to switch into Starmie's Hydro Pump. Recover guarantees my longevity, especially with Leftovers. One of my favourite features of Starmie is natural cure, forming half of my 'natural cure core' in this team which allows me not to be crippled by status.

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rest
    - Seed Flare


    Shaymin's probably my favourite Pokemon in this team because it handles Water types so well and nails Heatran switch ins with Earth Power. There aren't many pokemon in the metagame that can reliably nullify two threats that are on 'basically' every team. I chose the Special Attacker set because I find the generic Leech Seed set too limited in terms of coverage. Sadly, Leech Seed would not let this Shaymin live to my expectancy, so I run Rest instead. This is fine though, because of that Natural Cure stuff I mentioned earlier.
    I used to run HP Fire over HP Ice to nail Forretress, Skarmory and Scizor for more damage but I have since changed to HP Ice as I feel it has more utility against threats such as Zapdos and Dragonite.
    A common question I'm asked is why Shaymin and not Celebi. Well, three reasons. The first, Shaymin is cute as fuck. The second, Seed Flare. Seed Flare is so much better than Celebi's Leaf Storm because of the subsequent damage drop. After two attacks, Shaymin's total 'damage power' is 240. Celebi's is 210. Lastly, I don't carry the -Psychic typing which is definitely a hinderence in OU where Scizor and Tyranitar are everywhere. I don't like being Pursuited.

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 244 HP/220 Spd/32 SpAtk/12 SpDef
    Calm nature (+SpDef,-Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Flamethrower
    - Roar
    - Toxic


    Heatran completes my FWG core and serves as a defensive pivot to offensive Zapdos. I'm running the Tormentran EV spread (idea stolen from Faladran teehee) which gives Heatran significant bulk whilst retaining the ability to hit decently hard.
    I've experimented with the last two slots of this moveset, between running Explosion, Hidden Power, Will-O-Wisp and even Metal Sound but I finally settled on Roar and Toxic as I feel they add the most to this team. Roar allows me phaze out set up sweepers or Breloom's thinking they can get a cheeky Substitute trying to scare me out with Spore (smart players don't Spore first) and Toxic has so much general utility allowing me that extra residual damage I find to be very important on teams such as my own. I've debated switching to Lava Plume for the Burn rate on threats like Jolly Tyranitar, but I'd rather not chance it - I like to play safe. Flamethrower is more reliable and therefore gets the nod. I run Leftovers over Shuca Berry because Heatran really needs his recovery and no other member on this team can give him it. This could be alleviated with Leech Seed on Shaymin, but I don't run it.

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Flygon (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 16 Atk/240 Spd/252 SpAtk
    Rash nature (+SpAtk,-SpDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Roost

    Argh Flygon I love you!
    Flygon is my weapon against stall. It's so effective because everyone expects to see Choice Scarf. During the game I like to scout with my core and get a feel for the opposing team and bring out Flygon when I feel the time is right to start punching holes in the opponents team. Flygon is the perfect example of what mediocre stats and a brilliant typing can do for you. Flygon switches in with next to impunity into SkarmBliss etc and proceeds to wreck shit. Earthquake nails Heatran and is my main weapon against Suicune and other bulky waters (240 Spe is to beat Timid Suicune and Earthquake it), Fire Blast roasts Skarmory like a christmas turkey and Draco Meteor is the nuclear bomb I drop on pretty much everything else. Roost gives this guy further utility allowing Flygon to come back and do his shit again and again and again.
    It's the perfect weapon against stall as it is almost immune to hazards too. Resists Stealth Rock, immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes... Switches in on Thunder Wave for free. I use Rash > Mild because otherwise I'm OHKO'd by +2 Jolly Luke's Extremespeed iirc.
    Words can't describe how much I love Mixed Flygon.

    [​IMG]|[​IMG]
    Rotom-w @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/216 Spd/40 SpAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Shadow Ball
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick

    Finally, Rotom-W serves as this teams spin blocker, revenge killer and trick absorber. In general, it's the best spinblocker in the OU metagame as it has the unique ability of beating a lot of it's common switch ins. Tyranitar and Scizor - both looking to switch in and trap - take hefty damage from Hydro Pump. Thunderbolt let's me revenge kill +1 Gyarados, Shadow Ball helps me to beat Gengar and other Rotom-A. Like all special attackers, it lures Blissey and Snorlax like bees to honey and so a well timed Trick can prove extremely useful. This also allows Rotom-A to function as a trick absorber, sometimes losing it's scarf but then tricking whatever I was given back onto the opponents team - to something that generally won't want it. Trick can be played aggresively too, allowing me to steal my scarf back.
    Bulky Scarf Rotom is the only way to go now, because 252 HP let's me eat Life Orb Starmie's Hydro Pump and KO back with Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball. It also functions as a U-turn absorber sometimes, particularly vs Flygon and Scizor that may like to predict a Heatran switch in. This technique is not effective vs Infernape though, because I don't really appreciate taking Flare Blitz or Fire Blast/Overheat.
    I've been considering running HP Ice over Shadow Ball to catch +1 DD Dragonite off guard seeing as it kind of wrecks this team, but at the moment Shadow Ball combined with general residual damage that Dragonite may have suffered is doing okay.
    Overall Rotom-A serves as the glue to this team, maintaining the core's stability by patching up missing resistances/immunities and revenging threats that prove difficult.


    Conclusion.

    I haven't used this team for any serious events, particularly on Smogon, nor do I ladder hard on PO or PS (due to my chosen sim being Pokemon Lab) but when I do choose to vary myself, I do have success.
    This team suits my playstyle so well and I've come to love it throughout my days. Alas, the players I play against on a regular basis know this team through and through, I feel it's time to retire it once and for all.
    Should anyone give me a braindulling threat I've somehow not encountered feel free to comment and I may adapt the team and look to revamp it in the future.
    Now though, I feel as if I should start my late transition to the fifth generation or at the very least diversify myself and switch tiers.
    It's been fun.


    Final Look.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. Aquaaa

    Aquaaa

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    58
    Just a quick note and I might write some more later but, one threat i see is Banded Snorlax. It manages to trap 2 of your pokemon whilst 2HKO/OHKOing the rest of your team. Calcs:
    EQ vs Gross: 69.8% - 82.4%
    Body Slam vs Shaymin: 59.8% - 70.4%
    Body Slam vs Flygon: 81.7% - 96%

    You can pretty much know that EQ OHKOs Heatran and Pursuit OHKOs Starmie/Rotom. You tend to be weak to physica attackers in general, and there's one thing i could recommend. Suprise suprise it's Skarmory, i would recommend using it over Metagross.
    Set (open)
    Yuspiked (Skarmory) (M) @ Shed Shell/Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/232 Def/ 24 Spd
    Impish nature (+Def,-SpAtk)
    - Brave Bird/Taunt
    - Roost
    - Spikes/Stealth Rock
    - Whirlwind

    This way you can still get your rocks up whilst also providing phazes and more longetivity however you do lose some of your physical presence.


    In summary: Skarmory>Metagross
    I might write up some more later and think a bit more about it. Solid team though n_n
  3. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    quick nitpick: why not run 216 HP / 40 SpAtk / 252 Speed on starmie? it helps you in speed ties, at least...
  4. WillSO

    WillSO

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    100
    Mostly because I don't like risking speed ties. Sometimes it's almost necessary in the case of Shaymin, but Starmie speed tying with other base 115s (Azelf, Raikou and Starmie) isn't really worth it. I'd rather take the bulk.
  5. george182

    george182

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2009
    Messages:
    472
    I find max speed on defensive Starmie quite useful particularly in the Starmie vs Offensive rapid spin Starmie matchup. Offensive Starmie will normally do one of 3 things, thunderbolt to KO you, predict a switch and rapid spin, predict a switch and Hydro pump.

    If you suspect your opponent of doing the last two options, then your best option is to stay in and thunderbolt. This is normally very risky, however when the situation is a speed tie, it becomes much less risky as 50% of the time it doesn't matter if they use thunderbolt as you win the tie and KO them. Obviously it's also nice to have a 50% chance of koing them before they rapid spin or Hydro pump you.

    The main problem with the loss of bulk I find, is that Starmie is less useful for checking sweepers Gyarados and Lucario. While it still lives their attacks after a boost (bounce and extreme speed after a dragon dance or sword dance), Starmie needs to be completely healthy. However, you have Rotom and Shaymin which are both excellent checks to both of those threats.

    Your Starmie may also find itself very weakened at some point and up against a healthy base 115 speed pokemon. In this situation your Starmie is less valuable than their pokemon, so its much more advantageous for you to risk the speed tie, than it is for your opponent.

    So max speed on Starmie does have some uses and the loss of bulk won't hamper you too much. It's not a huge thing and the extra bulk is nice, but I do think it's something you should consider.
  6. WillSO

    WillSO

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    100
    Hi George, thanks for the advice.

    I'll consider that little swap, but I'm not sure it's really the change I'm looking for. I'd much rather have a bit of added security against the threats you mentioned and various other Pokemon I rely on Starmie to check.

    It may also be worth noting that Rotom-W can switch into LO Starmie and outspeed and KO it. Sometimes it takes a Hydro Pump to the face, but I tend to bait the Thunderbolt or at the very least the Ice Beam for Rotom-W to have an easier switch in.

    Whilst LO Starmie can be troublesome, it is quickly worn down by Life Orb and can generally be played around.
  7. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,449
    nice team man

    have you ever considered skarmory > metagross? spikes fit in really well on this team, since you've a spinblocker and a phazer, not to mention how much they assist mixgon in breaking down stall. skarm has really similar typing and functions similarly to metagross in that it shuts down sleep leads with lum berry. by making this change, you lose two things: 1. metagross's offensive presence and 2. a stealth rocker. so why make this change?

    first off, skarm's defensive capabilities fit this team more since it's focused on bulk and longevity, the latter of which meta doesn't really have since it blows up a lot. second, you've got another great candidate for setting up sr in sdef tran. you can drop earth power to make room, you don't have to hit other tran since you've starmie and flygon. i also recommend a full sdef ev spread for maximum tanking ability, and possibly protect over toxic, to rack up lefties recovery and lava plume burn damage.

    back to the original suggestion, skarm: if you're interested in trying it out, the set is careful natured with the aforementioned lum, max hp / spdef, spikes | taunt | roost | brave bird.

    gl, hope this helped

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)