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So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Eleon, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. alphatron

    alphatron Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!

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    Tyranitar without sandstream wouldn't be OU. His most popular set in fifth gen is a specially defensive set. What would you be using him for once that special bulk is gone? Stealth rock? Dragon dance with base 61 speed? Choice band when you can just use terrakion? He'd be UU in an instant if not for his precious sand...which is better than what I can say for ninetales and politoed.

    For the record, garchomp has no problem mangling ferrothorn with a sun boosted +2 fire fang. Can't do the calcs for the other two right now though.
  2. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    I've used it a few times but I generally find it less useful than it seems on paper due to two reasons;
    1) Finding an opportunity to set it up can be rough if you don't put it on a bulky enough Pokemon
    2) Bulky enough Pokemon usually can't afford the moveslot
    3) Most decent weather players these days aren't stupid enough to sack their weather inducer.
    4) I've developed better, more reliable ways to handle weather in their own element without having to shove a situational move onto one of my Pokemon.

    Still, it does happen and can screw you over. I did make a couple weather people rage quite when my tentacruel suddenly called in hail right after they let their ninetails or politoed die :P

    As already mentioned, you do not in any way have to avoid using fire and water types. Firstly, their STAB will only be nerfed in like 1/5 games at most as even Politoed only sees 22% usage. Secondly, even when it is nerfed they aren't usually rendered helpless as most OU water and fire types either have a secondary STAB they can use or just plain don't rely on the damage from their STAB exclusively to win. For example, my Sp.Def Heatran doesn't become useless in rain. It can still spread burns, wall certain threats on rain teams (especially Tornadus-T if it can avoid a Super-Power) and set up rocks even if its Lava Plume is doing less damage than normal.

    See, this exactly proves my point. It's EASIER to do, but frequently it's not BETTER to do. Sandstorm, for example, really hampers a lot of Pokemon from doing their job correctly. It makes walls less able to wall, shortens the lifespn of Life Orb abusers not immune to it even more, breaks Multiscale for Dragonite... while it's true that Tyranitar can fill a lot of roles I usually find myself avoiding him like the plauge because it'd mean half my team was always crippled. The key isn't having 1 specific Pokemon to deal with weather; it's having a team that jells together well and can handle all playstyles between them. Essentially, you just need a well built team. With the existence of so many formulaic approaches to Pokemon in the current metagame (not just weather but also High Offense, Volt-Turn, 4 drag 2 mag, etc) it seems a large portion of the player-base has forgotten completely how to build a team without a set formula to follow. While this can be disheartening, it also gives those who have not forgotten an edge, as a predictable enemy is an enemy that is easy to defeat.

    EDIT: Also your paragraph about how weather / SR gives a "mental edge" I just... what? I suppose if your opponent panics easily or something. I personally don't let it bother me when I face a weather team. I don't think of it as "oh he has his weather therefore he has an advantage". I think "Ok, this guy is running a weather team I know how to beat this". I suppose that's another reason why new players might have trouble with using non-weather; they're so used to being fucked if the opponent has their own weather up they don't know how to handle it.
  3. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    It's true, you can run Fire and Water types in non-weather teams, just don't run boosting moves on them. I wouldn't run Volcanora without weather support, simply because of the threat of rain, which ruins your coverage. Water types have it easier, since they still get nuetral coverage on Fire types in the sun, but sweeping with a Fire type pokemon without weather support just isn't viable right now.
  4. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Deer Lord
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    Volcarona is hardly crippled by Rain - Fire Blast, Bug Buzz and your choice of Hidden Power still hit just as hard. In fact, Fire Blast still has the equivalent of 90 base power - higher than Shadow Ball and Psyshock, and the same as Earth Power, Dragon Pulse, and Scizor's Bullet Punch. Don't you dare call that bad!

    (I will always stand by the point that SD Feraligatr wrecks Sun teams once it hits Torrent range and if you get rid of Grass-types, but that's irrelevant.)
  5. strengthofheart

    strengthofheart

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    At the very end of the day, a well-built non-weather team will always trump a well-built weather team. I have an really solid (if I may say so myself) stall team currently near 1400 on PO:

    [​IMG]
    Paula Deen (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic

    [​IMG]
    MightyForr (Forretress) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    [​IMG]
    Colgate (Gengar) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Disable
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast

    [​IMG]
    Molty (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Protect
    - Lava Plume
    - Roar

    [​IMG]
    QueenJelly (Jellicent) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    [​IMG]
    Storm (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 8 SDef / 24 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Roost
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Roar

    But this team was torn apart TWICE by a sun team with Ninetales, Espeon, Venasaur, Dugtrio, Volcarona (w/ HP Ground), and Cloyster. 6-0, 4-0 the last time. Absolutely no chance to win against them. None.

    Off topic: I really cannot wait for Lightningrod Zapdos.
  6. 2sly4u

    2sly4u

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    Wait, what? That's just not true. Good weatherless teams can certainly beat a well-built weather squad, but to say that they'd always win is just ignorant. No play style will always beat another along as the team and battler are good. Weather has access to many great pokemon and moves that aren't as effective on other teams, such as Hurricane, Chlorophyll pokemon, and Blizzard. All of those advantages can be overcome with smart team building, but they're still advantages. Anyways, there's nothing stopping a weather team from running something that doesn't benefit from weather at all, such as Haxorus or Gengar. Basically, Weather gets to use Weather abusers and everything else, and their only cost is being forced to use one of the five weather starters. I don't follow your logic at all.
  7. alphatron

    alphatron Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!

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    ^You understand.

    Nothing is forcing a weather team to fully limit itself to running Pokemon that only benefit underneath its specific weather effect.
  8. Shovel

    Shovel

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    I really can't add much. It's not like anyone can say "But a non-weather team can run insert pokemon to counter insert weather teams," because even a weather team does that. I guess the only cost is one of the weather starters, who are all equally capable of being good pokemon anyway (even Ninetale's Fire Blast is deadly in the sun).
  9. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    OK let's put this in a point by point format:


    1) Can you ladder with a weatherless team?

    Hell yea, I did it, still doing relatively well (hovering around top 100), several other people have done it in a much more harsh metagame (excadrillswiftswimgarchompetc) and will continue to do so.

    ====

    2) Have the weather teams become more difficult to take down and factor heavily in team building than before?

    Yes. At the start it was just a weather inducer and a bunch of weather abusing mons, and once you took out the inducer and changed the weather they might as well say gg. But now you have secondary inducers, trappers, hazard distractions, more than one permanent inducer, wall switching and life ain't getting easier.

    ====

    3) What are the common tactics to counter weather?

    There are no general guidelines but common tactics to be used, depending on the team you are running. For starters I find shielding yourself against one type of weather (for example being to operate comfortably under rain without ever bothering to change the weather) to be good since against the rest you can kill the inducer and just use a weather changing move.

    Lesser used strategies is to include weather stealers (Kingdra, Landorus, Tornadus, Thundrus, Kingdra, etc.), trappers for the weather inducers (Dugtrio, Wobby. etc.) and scarfed mons to counter the more punishing of weather abilities.

    Finally I don't consider using a weather inducing mon just for the sake of changing weather to be a weather team, especially if the rest of the team is not dependent on it, and some successful number ones have used mons such as Politoed to do just that.

  10. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    There's something I want to point out:
    Choice Band Terrakion doesn't have access to Pursuit, for starters.

    But I admit that without the sand, a lot of Tyranitar's bulk gets lost.
  11. Zarco

    Zarco

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    Weather vs. weatherless is pretty much a choice of preference. A good nonweather team can beat the typical weather teams, while a good weather team can ride its weather advantages to victory. Because the best way to abuse these advantages is usually straightforward and simple, weather teams often follow a predictable pattern (to stress this, they MUST run one specific poke, and the sweepers for weather teams are usually typical of most teams of that weather to some extent). Nonweather teams have to try to break this pattern with "anti-metagame" and anti-weather tactics. Therefore, your preference is often between Meta and Anti-meta. I prefer nonweather because I like being flexible in my team building and playstyle (also why I tend to run midgame-type sets like CB Terrakion and LO 3 attacks celebi over their boosting variants), but weather when played right works just as well.
  12. strengthofheart

    strengthofheart

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    I see what you're saying, but that's one of my main issues: the fact that non-weather teams are very limited to certain pokemon in order to counter weather. Good teams in this metagame are limited to Rain, Sun, VolTurn, DragMag, Hyper Offense, and teams that counter weather. The amount of creativity I'm allowed to have with my stall team is pretty low. Sun still kicks my ass.
  13. Shovel

    Shovel

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    I believe Hail is very anti-metagame, in it's own way, therefore is also a good strategy. BW2 gave it SubRoost Kyurem, I think, for even more Hail stall. I still prefer the scarf varient.

    And how could you count sand out? It's still a great weather, and benefits from the new Landorus-T as well.
  14. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    That's simply not true. For an immediate example, my team fits into none of those categories and still wins around 90% of the battles I have with it on PS!. This is assuming you mean teams dedicated to coutnering whether when you say "teams that counter weather" and not teams that just happen to be able to take it on. If you mean the later, that's as pointless as saying "teams that can counter offense" because it's such a sweeping generalization encompassing so many different varieties of teams that it becomes meaningless.

    I'mnot the only one either I'm quite certain. The reason most of the teams you see that do well fall into one of those categories is simply because it's easier to make a team that follows a formula than it is to make one that doesn't. It has nothing to do with usability and everything to do with ease of access. It is so much easier to throw together a team that conforms to a set formula than it is to essentially re-invent the wheel that simply most people don't bother, and a lot of those that do bother tend to be rather inexperienced players with no idea what they're doing. This leads to the appearance that non-formulaic teams don't work, when it has much more to do with the psychology of the people making and using teams than the actual viability of the teams themselves.
  15. nygerman

    nygerman

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    Well, it hard for non weather teams to take specs hurricanes and hydro pumps and thunders. Playing against the rain without kingdra is extremely hard and I would say that rain definitely wins a majority of the time.
  16. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    Not really. I mean think about it for a second. Chansey walls all three of the things you mentioned by itself. Gastrodon is flat out immune to two of them. Jirachi and Heatran can take Hurricanes. Most of the Pokemon spamming hurricane and Thunder are vulnerable to revenge killing by Scizor, Mamoswine and other priority users. Specially defensive Skarmory can take hurricanes. Amoongus can take Hydro Pumps and Thunders with ease. Choiced attacks in general can be predicted and walled, especially Hydro Pump and Thunder which have common Pokemon that are immune to them. And that's just a few things I named off the top of my head, if I took the time I could think up of more. It's only "hard" to take those moves if you don't prepare for them.

    I think a lot of people who look at weather and decide it is broken are just thinking about it incorrectly. They think of weather as some sort of separate entity, invading the metagame and forcing it to form around it. In truth, it's no different from any other metagame presence in this or any other generation. Rain abusing pokemon are just another set of threats that need to be prepared for, like any other Pokemon before them. Complaining that you can't beat rain without considering it in teambuilding is just as stupid as complaining that you couldn't win in generation 4 without considering stall when making your team. It's your own damn fault for not accounting for a part of the metagame, not the metagame's fault for not shaping itself to your will.
  17. xenu

    xenu just another kid chillposting at the laundromat...
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    in a nutshell: weather teams offensively neuter non-weathers, and pigeonhole them into one of a few variations of stall playstyles. the fact that a vast majority of non-weather teams are defense heavy is not a coincidence, it is a consequence of the popularity of weather.
  18. 2sly4u

    2sly4u

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    How convenient that you only quoted the part where Jimera0 talked about walls and not the parts about revenge killers...

    Offensive non-weather teams are still viable, you just need to be smart about it. Naturally, an offensive team doesn't usually have something that can switch into a LO Tornadus-T Hurricane over and over, but that could be said about a ton of non-weather threats as well (prime example: Haxorus). Did the introduction of Haxorus invalidate offensive play styles? No, of course not because it's easy to revenge kill. If you're trying to have a hard counter to every weather threat and you're using an offensive team, you're doing it wrong. Although if you want some offensive answers to weather, here you go. Jolteon laughs at Thunder and can switch into Hurricane once and KO the next turn. Celebi can take Hydro Pumps and Thunders all day. Hydreigon resists both Thunder and Hydro Pump. Kingdra 4x Resists Water and Fire, and can tank a Hurricane or Thunder as it sets up ( and outspeeds anyways with Swift Swim). Metagross can take Hurricanes and either set up Agility or just KO with Ice Punch/Stone Edge. Rotom-W resists Hurricane and Hydro Pump and threatens immediately with Volt Switch. Those are off the top of my head, I'm sure there are a lot more.
  19. Danger Mouse

    Danger Mouse

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    Honestly, stall teams have taken a hit more from the presence of threatening mixed sweepers (Keldeo breaks through the pink blobs easily, Hydreigon is impossible to switch into for everything that isn't Chansey, Mixmence is as much of a threat as ever to everything) than specifically weather. BW2 just added even more threats to the game, and stall teams have to adapt to a metagame that isn't as friendly to them as it used to be.
  20. Game Freak201

    Game Freak201

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    I definitely understand how hard it can be to stall in BW2 since I'm running a full-on Sand-Stall team right now. The only way I can really handle the aforementioned sweepers above is by making correct predictions and hoping residual damage or Perish Song count does those threats in; though, I do find that Jellicent and Bulky Starmie can wall Keldeo.

    And I don't even want to talk about Sun teams should something like my ScarfTar get KOed too soon. It doesn't help that those teams also like running Dugtrio.
  21. shofly12

    shofly12

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    I'm actually experimenting with Hail right now and I love it. Most people aren't prepared for it and while it certainly isn't naturally the most threatening weather, it is quite anti-meta. Also, people underestimate Kyurem.

    On the topic of stall, I HAVE found stall harder to run this gen than last gen. Even with the introduction of new defensive toys like Eviolite and Ferrothorn, there's so many new offensive threats (Therians, Haxorus, Chandy (with Shadow Tag, it will be annoying as heck, Techniloom, etc) that it's hard for stall teams to keep up. Also, the rise in trapper usage does not make stall happy.
  22. Dukewarrior13

    Dukewarrior13

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    I have toyed with the idea of making a completly anti-weather team. I found the ability cloud nine to be really interesting. The ability to block the weather seems really useful. The pokemon that have this ability arent the best in the world. (Golduck, Altaria, Lickilicky) You can also put mamoswine on the team, possibly because it can use both hail and sand. Overcoat or Magic Coat may be possible options too. I dont know if this is a good idea. What do you think? I just wanted to try something new. I know this is not what you meant by non-weather teams.
  23. steelydan

    steelydan

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    I've found anti-weather to be pretty viable. I've been using an offensive team of Rotom-W, Scizor, Mamoswine, Espeon, Chandelure, and I've been switching between Breloom and Virizion. I'm not sure which one works better since I've had success with both but the grass and fighting types are a huge threat to weather teams and one of them feels mandatory to be threatening to inclement weather. With that team I've gotten to about 1750 on the ladder. I haven't tried any overcoat or cloud nine users, but I think having checks and counters to common weather abusers is more beneficial than negating it. I've done well against sand, sun, and rain (though rain is the most troublesome). The one type of weather I haven't gone up against is Hail, so I can't say how well my team performs there.
  24. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i don't like weatherless teams. bw2 is completely focused around rain, with sun and sand also making appearances, meaning that if you're going to try to counter weather then there are a ton of threats you'll need to check...

    or you could just run hyper offense, which in my mind is the best way to beat current weather teams. weather these days is centered around x-weather-abuser-sweep, such as tornadus-t, terrakion, venusaur, whatever. however, this also means that a lot of these teams lack extremely solid walls that can handle repeated offensive pressure knocking at their door. spamming a ton of set-up sweepers actually works rather well in this metagame. personally, i prefer lead aerodactyl hyper offense, as it's pretty much assured stealth rock since it's the fastest stealth rock setter in ou and can outspeed and 2hko both magic bounce pokemon with stone edge/rock slide. once you have rocks up, dual screen with mew/latios/latias/espeon and then bring out the big guns. personally, i think shell smash cloyster is particularly effective in this metagame, as most teams don't carry a super-speedy choice scarf user anymore, preferring their scarf thundurus-t (slower than +2 cloyster) and scarf genesect (slower than +2 cloyster). with dual screens and sr it's ridiculously easy to set up on something and pull off a convincing sweep.

    and since we're talking a bit about cloud nine ability, i've got to say the best stoutland/sandslash counter out there remains scarf golduck.
  25. 2sly4u

    2sly4u

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    Well I wouldn't call Golduck a "counter" to Stoutland since it can't switch in, and even if it could it's still mediocre (though using Golduck automatically makes you awesome).

    It's awesome to see someone use Aerodactyl in today's metagame. Team preview may have hurt its viability as a lead, but even so it still gets SR up 99% of the time. Outspeeding and OHKOing Tornadus-T is awesome too if he somehow survives into mid/late game. But out of curiosity, why are you using him over Deoxys-D? Sure, there's a huge difference in Base Speed but I find Taunt to be fairly uncommon (rendering the Speed somewhat moot for a suicide lead) and the extra hazards Deoxys has access would help the setup sweepers .

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