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Solar Flare - a 5th Gen Sun team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Benlisted, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Intro:

    As any of you familiar with my posting habits will know, Sun is by far my favourite playstyle this Gen. My foray into competitive battling began with a Sun team for Gen 4 UU as my favourite two types were Fire and Grass, so it seemed a logical path to take. Naturally, when I heard of Drought Ninetales being a potential release I rapidly assembled a DW team to get the gist of Sun in 5th gen, and to see whether it could actually be viable. And oh boy did it work. Immediately upon Tales’ release I moved my team to the Wifi ladder on PO and proceeded to skyrocket to 16th place, and though this was mostly due to people’s unpreparedness for the new teamstyle, it proved to me beyond a doubt that Sun could work in the new meta.

    This team is the result of about 6 months of tweaks and adjustments to my main Sun team, which before the release of the smogon server consistently kept me in the 1300s+ on PO and peaked at 104th, which I consider rather good given I generally hate to ladder for any period of time. I’ve been wanting to RMT it for some time, but essentially was put off by the thought that anyone would steal my ideas (lol). Now that Sun teams have become more commonplace anyway and I’ve realised that it was several Sun RMTs which helped me build my first team back in Gen 4 UU so I should probably return the favour, here it is.

    At a glance:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Team Development Process:

    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I initially started out 5th Gen in DW with a lineup of Tales, Venusaur, Tangrowth, Blaziken, Volcarona and Forretress (after experimenting with Chandelure and Infernape). Not the most balanced team, I’ll admit, but I basically picked the most powerful things on offer to get the hang of the playstyle, from the rough formula: Tales, 2 Chlorophyll, 2 Fire, Support.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The first major revamp saw me ditch Tangrowth who was simply too slow for Sawsbuck, an up and coming Sun sweeper who was attracting some hype at the time for his blistering speed and excellent coverage. Both my Fire sweepers were removed since the Chlorophyllers were pulling more of the weight, and I added Arcanine to absorb Fire hits and revenge with Extremespeed and Typhlosion as a Scarfed hard hitter.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I soon saw the folly of Typhlosion (who is arguably outclassed by Charizard anyway) and considered a range of Dragons as a 6th member, abusing Fire Blast and adding nice resists to the team. Instead, however, I decided upon Cresselia and her 66% recovery Moonlight along with nice bulk for the team, and at this point my rankings picked up to the 1300s region where I’ve remained since (while actively playing at least). From this point onwards tinkering with movesets were the main changes as I was happy with the team as a whole’s performance.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Despite Cress performing well, on Alphatron's advice I tried out a BirdyTran over her, and it worked excellently, giving my team a greater offensive presence than ever before and the advantage of a surprise immunity. HP Ice was a necessity to rid myself of troublesome Dragons, and Flame Charge was used to give me the ability to sweep upon forcing something out, which is always nice.



    Team:
    Cornerstone

    Ninetales@Leftovers
    [​IMG]
    Timid nature (+Spe/-Atk)
    Drought
    248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Flamethrower
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Roar
    - Substitute


    Tales has naturally been the most common mon on all my Sun teams, but her sets have changed more than any other member’s. I tried Scarf sets initially, but quickly abandoned them to Balloon for free switchins and general amusement against enemy Hippowdon, and attempted LO and Lefties sets too. For the longest time I utilised a ChestoRest set the analysis provided me with, but after a long period Katakiri's RMT showed me that Tales did not need Rest to survive on a successful sun team, so I began to try out Substitute sets with Lefties. HP Fight to beat Tran didn't work out since I couldn't touch SubChomp, so I started using Roar as a form of compromise; not letting me damage things directly or cripple anything badly, but at least preventing any setup the opponent may attempt, including the very problematic Substitute from various pokemon.

    In terms of moves, literally everything in Tales’ support movepool has been here at some point. Nasty Plot HP Fight sets to beat TTar (loses to scarfTar and Toed), Wow/Protect/Disable to let me safely switch out of TTar (beaten by so much else), Power Swap/Overheat to beat Volcarona leading against me and cripple switchins (needs too many turns to pull off, sadly) have all been attempted. This moveset is what I find most reliable. Fire Blast used to be used for its powerbut misses cost me a few too many games, and WoW and Toxic lets me cripple TTar or physical attackers hoping to switch in – helping to wear it down. Roar meanwhile allows me to prevent any setup attempts, as well as rack up a little SR damage, and Substitute prevents me from taking unecessary crits as well as letting me scout switches and safely get a Roar or WoW off.

    EVs are maxed in speed as marginally more bulk seems to do little for Tales to me, and outspeeding and WoWing or Subbing on things between 90 and 100 base speed comes in very handy.


    Primary Sweeper

    Venusaur@Life Orb
    [​IMG]
    Modest nature (+SpA/-Atk)
    Chlorophyll
    32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
    - Energy Ball
    - Sludge Bomb
    - HP Fire
    - Growth


    I think I was one of the first few people to switch from EQ to Sludge Bomb as coverage on Venusaur, and it works wonders, letting it hit Dragons hard at the loss of hitting Chandelure and Heatran, who are far less common. Seed Bomb has been tried as STAB, but not hitting Gliscor as hard is no substitute for beating Blissey, who doesn’t pose too many issues anyway. I honestly wouldn't change this set unless Giga Drain was released, as it simply destroys whole teams once its few counters are gone or weaknened.

    EVs beat ScarfChomp, but lose to Scarf Latis. The rest of the set is pretty self explanatory – as much power as possible, at blistering speed. This set is pretty much ideal for the meta at present imo, so it doesn't need much altering - it frequently sweeps whole or large portions of teams. 4 SpD over more HP EVs for mimimum LO recoil, letting me attack once more assuming no other damage. Energy Ball is used as it is Saur's best Special attack which is currently legal with Chlorophyll.


    Cleaner & Revenger

    Sawsbuck@Life Orb
    [​IMG]
    Adamant nature (+Atk/-SpA)
    Chlorophyll
    72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
    - Horn Leech
    - Double-Edge
    - Jump Kick
    - Swords Dance


    The hype surrounding this new pokemon was well-deserved, he has turned out to be one of the most reliable members of my team and has barely changed – the last slot being the only alteration. I initially dropped SD since he cannot OHKO Ferro or Skarm even at +2, meaning it dies to a Gyro Ball or Brave Bird. Megahorn was then experimented with for hitting Latis, but since D-E always KOs with SR I decided to drop it in favour of something less obsolete. Aromatherapy was then used as it let me rid the team of troublesome status when Ferrothorn inevitably comes in, rather than attacking it for tons of recoil damage. Kudos to Alphatron for proposing Aromatherapy's use on Saws, but sadly due to meta shifts I had to remove it to break Bliss/Bro. Now, the first three moves give it excellent coverage on all but a few Ghosts and the aforementioned Steels, and Swords Dance allows me to OHKO both members of the Slowbro/Blissey stall core which became increasingly popular as Blaziken rose in usage, which is very useful given that they wall my entire team together otherwise.

    EVs let me beat base 115 Scarfers, which will pretty much be the fastest thing around unless a Timid Volcarona gets to +2, and the spare goes in HP. Beating 115s as opposed to 110s is useful primarily for Starmie, who otherwise can Ice Beam my Grasses into the ground, and Modest Volcarona needing revenging.


    Utility Counter & Powerhouse

    Arcanine@Choice Band
    [​IMG]
    Adamant nature (+Atk/-SpA)
    Intimidate
    16 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 236 Spe
    - Flare Blitz
    - Close Combat
    - Extremespeed
    - Wild Charge


    Arcanine was been my first choice of Fire Absorber for almost the entire life of this team, and for good reason. He combined several aspects other Flash Fire users lack into one – strong priority and the ability to beat TTar and Heatran with ease (in CC). Now I have Heatran, however, I figured two Fire absorbers would be obsolete, so switched back to Intimidate. He provides excellent utility revenging various sweepers – Volcarona and Reuniclus somewhat suicidally, as well as weakened Blaziken or Latios. Sadly he is subject to large recoil and often has to suicide againt something for the good of the team, but he is incredibly useful when I do, winning me a lot of matches. Though for the longest time I considered Wild Charge to be less useful that Crunch - I finally realised that Flare Blitz hits all Ghosts but Jellicent harder - who is beaten by Wild Charge (Chandelure is no longer an issue as I worked out that with 30% damage Venusaur sweeps past it at +2). Speed EVs let me beat Mamoswine all the time, which is situational but gives a tad more HP.

    Everything else seems somewhat straightforward – he is a good powerhouse but is more of a utility mon than a sweeper to this team, countering a few of my biggest threats effectively, and for this reason I can't see that he needs too much altering. He's a little prediction reliant, but in general the things that come in to wall him my team can take on reasonably, so it's not an issue all that often. Extremespeed and Intimidate's usefulness cannot be stressed enough - the former allows me to revenge a huge number of threats who get out of control, and the latter combined with Forry's Volt Change allows me to laugh in Gyarados' face.


    Bulky Sweeper

    Heatran@Balloon
    [​IMG]
    Timid nature(+Spe/-Atk)
    Flash Fire
    56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - HP Ice
    - Flame Charge


    The newest addition to the team, replacing Cresselia, Heatran helps me stick to my offensive roots whilst still giving valuable resists and immunities to the team. He can go toe-to-toe with a number of Dragons, as well as opposing grounded Tran. Flame Charge gives him an excellent way to function as a late-game sweeper, or lure in Scarfers for me to eliminate or wear down early (Chomp in particular). With him taking the aggro in the form of Ground and Fire attacks, I have to be somewhat prediction reliant, but this isn't too much of a burden especially given Tran can work fine without his item. You'd think his added Fighting weakness (making two on the team) would be an issue given the rise of Fighting-types in OU, but honestly it really doesn't seem to. Venusaur can tank the majority excellently, whilst setting herself up for a sweep.

    EVs give me the speed I need to outrun base 130s and +1 Base 95s - opposing max speed Tran will either be grounded - so I win, or Balloon too, in which case I switch out and let another Fire take the HP Ice or Dragon Pulse.


    Hazard Support

    Forretress@Leftovers
    [​IMG]
    Sassy nature (+SpD/-Spe)
    Sturdy
    248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (1Spe IV)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Gyro Ball
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Change


    SR was an essential for this team for several KOs, as was Spinning given my Fires. There are few who boast this combination of moves, and since I wanted a Steel to help sponge Dragon attacks, Forry was my guy. Furthermore, this gen he gets the awesome Volt Change, letting me slowly and safely get Tales in to setup Sun. The final slot has been altered a lot - EQ just made me too much of a free switch, Gyro Ball was rarely used, Spikes were way to hard to get down when I also needed to be spinning, and even screens have been attempted, with Reflect patching up my poor defence, making it a decent choice. However, since Reflect's usefulness was pretty much restricted to helping beat Gyarados (who I beat anyway unless I play awfully) Gyro Ball was added back on to prevent things like Chomp and Gengar getting Subs up on Forry with huge ease, which had become a problem for my team.

    Since with a +Def nature I was barely getting 2HKOd by a range of special attacks I often came in on, I swapped to max SpD to let me get rocks up or a spin off when facing a near 2HKO. Defence is adequate to take a lot of hits, so I haven't missed the extra 30 points in it Relaxed gave me. Speed is low to enable slow volt changes off things like Reuniclus, but since Ferro underspeeds me anyway I figured I may as well outspeed them all so I know where I stand. Beating Ferro lets me get things in with VC with less residual damage and stops Forry getting seeded too, which is good.


    Leading and Team Preview:

    I begin with Tales in the lead position, as if there is no weather inducer I probably will send her out first, unless there is something obvious which can threaten her and the rest of my team. If TTar or Heatran are present then Arcanine or sometimes Sawsbuck will take the lead depending on the rest of the team, threatening a powerful Fighting hit. Against Rain Forry normally leads, though Sawsbuck can too since it can OHKO all of its members but Ferrothorn, who is an easy switch for Tales. Forry can also lead against a variety of other leads, as long as they don’t have a random Fire move. I used to switch him to the front most of the time until everything began running them, however.

    Team preview really assists my team, as I can see what I need to keep alive, since I lack true counters for a few things and rely instead upon predicting correctly or suiciding something in unneeded to deal with them. It also helps greatly with telling me what is likely to use Tales, Arc or Forry as setup fodder, so I can use the appropriate move on the switch and cripple it or beat it outright, or preserve my counter to it.


    Threats:

    The development of my team has helped eliminate a lot of the threats I used to be worried about, so thanks to everyone who contributed! As of now the main threat I face is probably SubTran, as if it gets a Sub up it requires a sacrifice to take down, since Ground/Fire hits can OHKO my entire team. Heatran is my insurance normally, since with Balloon I can switch in safely, but he cannot break a BallonSubTran's subs, making it somewhat of a worry (though a Tran with both Balloon and Sub is pretty rare, meaning I can normally deal with it without giving up huge momentum.

    SubChomp is also somewhat of an issue, since he can threaten Tales out and grab a sub on her. Fortunately Heatran is a fantastic counter to Chomp, but will have to be sacrificed if it gets a sub up. Fortunately the Sub+Roar Tales I'm currently running gives the mon who is biggest setup fodder for Chomp a great way to deal with him, so it's rarely an issue unless I make a mistake.

    Various speed boosters can pose issues, but the combination of Forry and Tran to wall them, Venu and Saws to outspeed a lot of them, and Arc to revenge with Extremespeed means that in general I have the potential to beat any.

    Overall, I now lose primarily to being outplayed by teams with a decent matchup against me - ones with SubChomp and BalloonTran for instance, as well as the obvious hax. I'm pretty pleased that my team has reached this stage, and whilst not perfect, it works nicely for my offensive playstyle, so further changes will mostly be following the meta's progression. Of course if you can suggest any way to reduce the chances of said bad team matchups, then that would be great, as it would undoubtedly increase my winning record.
  2. Pen Ink

    Pen Ink

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2011
    Messages:
    337
    SOLAR FLARE!

    Anyways, it looks like a solid sun team. I only have a few issues, but one of my biggest issues is the ChestoRest Ninetales. It looks pretty good on paper, but Ninetales is a frail thing that can't take many hits, even with all that HP. I'd honestly go with Balloon for the fact that it can give you a free switch which is especially nice against Hippowdon. It also really laughs in Excadrill face when he goes for an Earthquake and his sweep is ruined.

    Cresselia just seems, well, there. I don't really like it being there right now, especially with that set, and it doesn't seem very helpful. I think that instead of Calm Mind Cress, you should go with Double Screen Cress. It makes it easier on Venusaur to set up Growth and is really helpful when taking hits, plus it makes Cresselia incredibly defensive.

    [​IMG]@ Light Clay
    252 HP/148 Def/108 Sp. Def
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Thunder Wave/Lunar Dance
    - Psychic
  3. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Actually, with Tales you'd be surprised bow much of a beating it can take. Non-STAB EQ from Venipede only deals about 70% and that's on its weaker side, which surprised me but is indicative of how surprisingly well it performs. I did use Balloon but then I had absolutely no recovery, which is never a nice position when you need to switch in 6 times. He takes neutral hits pretty well and can come in on them nicely (people rarely predict that you will bring Tales in on anything less than obvious) and Rest counters out the damage this accumulates.

    Cress does appear a bit tagged on I guess, but without it my god do dragons give me issues. Ice Beam is essential for dealing with bulkyMence and the like, who can otherwise shuffle my team all day and basically destroy me. I'll add in that it does that actually, sonce I forgot when writing up. I guess I could add in a Reflect or something over CM since I rarely use it, but Psychic is basically essential for it to not be setup bait for everything (and is a nice way to rid myself of Conkeldurr), and switching to a purely defensive set (which I have done before) upsets my momentum quite a bit.

    Thanks for the rate, I will try out screens on Cress (could help her tank Heatran's hits nicely) and comment on how it goes.
  4. Charro

    Charro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    450
    TAIYOKEN!
    If you're facing problems with Chandelure and Heatran i suggest that you try a mixed set on Venusaur, like this

    [​IMG]
    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Mild 64 HP / 164 Atk / 96 SpA / 184 Spe
    - Growth
    - Giga Drain / Power Whip
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power Ice / Sludge Bomb

    You can alt the evs a little and the attacks. Growth boost your attacks and then begin to sweep, Power Whip let you beat blissey and Chansey while hp ice Gliscor and dragons, Earthquake for fire types. The only thing that wall this set is skarmory and bronzong, Scizor and Forretress probably can take a hit too. And all of them are handled by your other team members
  5. Pen Ink

    Pen Ink

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2011
    Messages:
    337
    Definitely would have said that but I'm too lazy to look up Japanese. xD
  6. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    It seems I've accidentally chosen a thread title which is some anime or manga in japan lol?

    Anyway, onto the Saur you suggest. Sadly Power Whip and Giga Drain are both currently illegal with Chlorophyll, otherwise I would most certainly be using Giga Drain to let me outrecover Blisseys and cancel LO damage. At present Gliscor is dealt with by +2 EB, and all but the bulkiest dragons die to a +2 EB (if part ground) or +2 Sludge Bomb (if part Flying/Psychic) - and Cress takes care of Bulkymence and the4x Ice weak dragons nicely. SB likewise deals with Fire types, who even when hit neutrally die to it at +2. It may have awful SE coverage, but its neutral coverage is pretty great.

    The problem with using EQ is that it splits your EVs, giving you less power, and that quite literally the only things you gain coverage on are Tran and Chandelure. Admittedly these two are the biggest issues to my team, but I'd rather have a better way to deal with Latios and other dragons who may try to wall my sweep and are exceedingly common, than a way to deal with Tran and Chandelure (on my main sweeper at least). Ideally the rest of the team needs to remove these threats for Venusaur so it can sweep the remainder of the opponent's squad, which is why I've been thinking of changing Cress, Sawsbuck and Tales to better cope with them.

    HP Ice is pretty much no use on Venusaur as opposed to HP Fire. Ice gives coverage on things it can deal with with its STABs anyway, and Fire lets it deal with Ferrothorn along with practically every other Steel hit neutrally by EQ for an OHKO, which is incredibly useful given their commonplace use to counter Dragons. The stuff it hits may be dealt with by the rest of the team, but being able to beat as much as possible on its own is essential for something designed to sweep large portions of teams.

    Sorry I'm not gonna try out your suggestions, all the above mostly comes from past experience with a set using EQ and Seed Bomb, I just thought I should explain why it is I don't want to run a Venusaur like the one you suggest.
  7. Charro

    Charro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    450
    I get it, no problem bro, i thought that Power whip was legal :/
    Anyway i also thought that you choose the name "solar flare" at purpose xD
  8. alphatron

    alphatron Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,443
    Was waiting to finally see a RMT from you! Nice job. I smiled when reading this. And thanks for the mention of aromatherapy on Sawsbuck.

    For Ninetales, the only recommended change would be hp fighting over will-o-wisp. It keeps heatran from getting free subs at the least and makes him somewhat wary about switching into you. Choice Banded tyranitar will be a problem without wisp, but tales shouldn't be in for more than one turn if your opponent has a t-tar up and about. Toxic can still be used to spread status to other switch ins anyway. Although there will be times when you miss will-o-wisp, I admit.

    For venusaur, change nothing. I'm pretty sure you were indeed the first person to post that set on these forums and I like it better than any other Venusaur set I have tried. Chandelure and Heatran are the only things that wall you. Chandelure isn't common outside of dreamworld unless you're fighting Kefka (he's like, the only one I see who uses it on all of his teams). Blissey is problematic, but can be overpowered if you growth up to +4 or +6. If she thunderwaves you, then you have saws in reserve to cure the status. You have better ways to handle her though.

    I look at Arcanine, and I see no downside to using him. When I used to carry him, morning sun saw little use for me as well, but was vital at times when I needed him alive. If you really don't find yourself using it too often with the defense drops and the massive recoil, you can always try will-o-wisp on him instead. IT sounds like filler, but the things that like to switch in on Arcanine are things such as Gyarados (who don't expect wild bolt, oddly enough), Dragonite, Garchomp, etc. Outside of bulky waters, none of these things will appreciate switching into a WoW. People expect this kind of stuff from Ninetales, but they seem to forget that every single fire type in the game is capable of learning this attack.

    Forry. Every time I attempt to do something different on sun teams as far as hazards are concerned, I can't see anything better than forretress (the closest after him are probably claydol and donphan). A specially defensive set can tank draco meteors somewhat well and gets a lot of oppurtunities to set up hazards. He is monstrous set up fodder for landorus and garchomp though, which is why I have yet to relinquish gyro ball on my sets. You've got cresselia though, so you have very little to worry about as far as those two are concerned. Except for, of course, that big green behemoth that usually accompanies them...

    I've still yet to appreciate cresselia, but I accept the fact that she allows you to get around certain threats. Still though, I always wind up thinking, isn't there any better? Depending on your position, sometimes there is, and other times, there aren't. Outside of CM Latias, or CM Roar Latias, she does handle the dragons quite well. Even so, I find her being relatively horrible against certain things even when she excels against others.

    As far as Heatran goes, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

    Heatran @ balloon
    Evs: 88 HP, 168 SpA, 252 spd
    Nature: Modest

    -Nitro charge
    -Fire Blast
    -Earth Power
    -Dragon pulse/HP Ice

    Despite taking a minimum of 47% from a latios draco meteor (-___-), Heatran can handle dragons very well. Coming in on a dragon type move, or a surf in the sun allows him to set up a nitro charge which lets him reach 379 speed with the EVs spread listed above. He outspeeds all non scarfed base 120 pokemon, and the base 125 and up pokes aren't common enough to worry about. He can nitro charge as a +2 garchomp tries to pop your balloon, and then does a mimimum of 100% to him with hp ice. He handles salamence in the same way and can 2HKO multi scale dragonite as well (which is slower than venu and saws if bulky, and isn't bulky at all if its running a purely offensive set). Hp Ice deals about 1% more than a sun boosted fire blast against the lati twins and haxorus, but if you're really worried about them instead, then you may go for dragon pulse which is a surefire 2HKO on 4 HP Latias at least and ohkos haxorus after rocks (in other words, barely worth it, but still useful when it is). He gives your team another fire absorber as well, which is always nice. You may change to a timid nature if you wish, since at +1 speed, you'll outspeed adamant blaziken even after he uses protect and ohko him with earth power. Unlike Cresselia, this heatran doesn't invite enemy heatran to come on in and ruin your parade since you would have problems if a hail or sand (or rain >_>) team pulled out their own heatran and crippled their recovery.

    Slowbro is another pokemon who can handle non Lati dragons and Heatran, but he'd have to rely on focus blast to do so, which we both know is somewhat unreliable. Outside of substitute garchomp, I've personally had success with him stopping dragons and then regenerating off some of the damage they would have otherwised crippled him with. He gets fire blast too as we both know. BU scrafty and BU Gallade can also take some punishment from a non FF heatran and scare him out with a STAB drain punch, even if he's got a sub up. Gallade can also run calm mind if need be to help him slightly against other threats in between bulking up.

    What have I been using recently to keep from losing to Heatran and the dragons? Agility balloon rapidash. Hilariously, it works. Don't run it though. I'm serious. Don't run it. I find that when it comes to Heatran, it's all about getting my check or counter onto the field before Heatran even shows up. Not too hard with some smart play.
  9. Eos

    Eos Do It With A DON!
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    741
    Hi, Good team first off. This really is the solid sun team standard at the moment with a few changes that are more so rare, so it's always good to have a team for you in which you feel comfortable and you personally have made the changes to it according to how your success has been going and whom your counters are.
    Seeing as Heatran has steel typing to him making him counter some pokes better, as well as flash fire which really is what this team needs. You have this ability in the form of Arcanine, and i do agree that Extremespeed and CC can be quite helpful, i suggest you try out a stealth rocks + balloon Heatran set. Your probably thinking, well okay, that is a no because i already have Fort as my entry hazard set up. I do have to agree that fort is one of the best supports, but i suggest you use toxic spikes instead of SR and maybe try out payback over volt change. Volt change is kind of iffy and a questionable move to say the least. It does have quite an advantage over Ferrothorn, but not much. What does it hurt just to predict a switch over using such a low-powered move (without stab no less) that would only do a small margin of health if really any?

    With these two changes, I'm guessing you'll have a bit more success. So, try these out and tell me how you did. Good luck, have fun!
    Hope this helped :D
  10. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,505
    Sup Ben. I was wondering when I'd see your Sun team.

    First off, and sorry for this nitpick, but you should list your EVs in this order. HP, At, Df, SpA, SpD, Spd. It's just a bit confusing looking at it.

    Anyway first thing I can think of is to give Crunch to Arcanine like you mentioned to hit Chandelure, as I don't think any of them would expect it. As a result with all physical moves I also recommend replacing LO with Choice Band. More power and lack or damage recoil may actually help you in the long run. Plus, since you're keen on using Team preview to your advantage you can often decide which move would be best to lock yourself into. You also don't have to worry about killing yourself if you want to sweep late game with Extremespeed for example.

    I was thinking about nominating a Gliscor over Cresselia as your wall since in Sun it only has an Ice weakness, but then I thought, why not Landorus? It's not exactly a wall, but it's still decently bulky, especially in the sun, and it can abuse Sand Power if your enemy gets sand up before you can get Tales back in. HP Ice lets you hit those dragons still with a decent 115 SpA stat and EQ and Rock Slide/Stone Edge both let you take care of Heatran and Chandelure no problem. Rock Polish or Sword Dance would make for a good last move, or even Substitute when you predict a switch letting you murder with your strong moves. As for item, LO is probably best but there's also Yache Berry, or Scarf to get the jump on dragons outside of Scarfchomp. I think you should try it out!

    Good luck with your team. I need to try a Sun team.
  11. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    First off, wow guys, seriously really great rates, thanks a ton! Smogon community at its best :).

    @Alphatron - I've been trying HP Ground over Toxic recently on Tales and not find any use for it since around half of all Trans are Ballooned and a lot of the rest are Scarfed.. I'll certainly try out HP Fight over WoW and Toxic I think, since having basically anything to hit Tran switchins, not for damage really but to discourage them from Subbing up would be very nice, letting me switch in Arc or similar easily. WoW is probably more useful for countering DNite leads and other physical attackers than maiming TTars, however, since I can switch out of them like you say, so I'll try it over both moves and see how it goes.

    WoW could see some good use on Arcanine now you mention it, since things like Gliscor in particular absolutely love to come into the obvious CC, but the issue with him ofc is that if I have to CC or risk death (vs TTar for instance) Toxic Orb will activate rendering WoW much less useful on a main switchin. I'll try out WoW and see if my prediction skills are up to par, however, since not losing an uneccessary 10% would be nice every once in a while.

    If I ever drop a hazard on Forry, it'll be for Gyro Ball I agree - an attack would be nice, I just feel that at present the extra hazards do more for me.

    I've thought about Heatran a few times - but always over Arc as my Fire absorber as opposed to over Cress. Flame Charge has always seemed like it'd be very fun but I wasn't sure how easy it'd be to pull off - but if I use Timid then beating Adamant +1 Blaziken seems good enough to me. Since Sawsbuck beats Latios nicely, as does Arc's extremespeed, I'll run HP Ice for the other Dragons. One thing concerns me however, which is that switching into a Dragon hit will break the Balloon, rendering me vulnerable to Chomp especially if not choiced, as well as any other dragons abusing dragon/fire/ground coverage, though I suppose I can come in at least once on most sets. BulkyMence seems like it'd be the biggest issue with this set, if running EQ obviously, which it may well not be. Basically I like the idea and I'll try it out, though I may put some more EVs in SpDef to tank DMs better.

    Slowbro is very cool and something I always want to use on Sun but can never really fit in. FB isn't my favourite move either, as you say. Never considered Gallade or Scrafty but the same seems to apply, that they wouldn't fit as well as other things. I'll keep them in mind and see if they would help me deal with any threats, however.

    Thanks for taking the time to write that epic rate, and major lulz at the Rapidash XD.

    @Eos - Yeah, some of my team is cookie cutter, it's the EVs I specialise a tad mostly. I appreciate Heatran being good for my team - I'll try the set you suggest over Cress, but Arcanine's Priority is really one of the things that pulls the team together, as is CC, letting it deal with TTar, which Tran cannot very well, so I'd really prefer to keep him if at all possible (that and he's my favourite mon). Anyway, I'll see how a SR Tran as well as the one alphatron suggests over Cress performs, thanks :).

    As for Forry, Volt Change has really become another central feature to my playstyle - even if sometimes it does encourage me to stay in when I really should predict and switch. The main reason is the safety it affords Tales coming in, considering its only truly free switch is into a WoW (and to an extent my other reasonably frail sweepers). Sometimes just as important is what it offers against opposing weather inducers who are slower and would get their weather up if I double-switched Tales in against them (more Toed and Hippo than TTar). The other reason it is useful is that often literally anything on the opponent's team may try to set up on Forry, letting me find out what the opponent gives this role to and counter it appropriately (including escaping Magnezone). If I drop SR and shift it Tran then I'll certainly try out T-Spikes, which may free up a moveslot on Tales for HP Fight. Payback I'm really not keen on for something as weak as Forry this gen (especially now Dusclops/Noir are occasionally used) given its nerf - if I supsect a ghost will come in I'll VC out to kill it with something, letting me freely spin next time. Thanks a lot for the suggestion though - you've prompted me to change my playstyle away from relying on VC too much, which is really useful, so cheers, and I will try out your other suggestions.

    @Jaroda
    - Haha sorry about the EVs, I meant to change it after drafting up the team but just overlooked it, will do it now. Nice to know you were wondering when you'd see my team!

    You make a good point about Arcanine - now I think about it, the main reason his health is so depleted is because of me repeatedly using CC in places where if I mispredict I will die - to hit TTar for instance early in the match when I'm not sure if he'll switch in Gliscor. This accumulates really quickly, and given my love for switching into Bullet Punches and desire to live 2 to kill Scizor and such, this is really detrimental to his survivability, especially given it is often impossible to predict and use MS against certain teams. I'll certainly try out a CB set now you've made me consider the real benefits of it (lack of recoil not more power) especially as I often bring Arc in for a single turn to try and kill something, and get predicted, losing 10% for little gain. Crunch also gives nice utility beating Slowbro, which is increasingly common in my experience.

    Landorus seems a hilariously brilliant idea actually, my main concern being the lack of being able to take random dragon hits like Cress or Tran could in a pinch. I think I'd be inclined to try a Sub set, given his decent speed and deadly offenses already, but the HP Ice would certainly prove invaluable in beating dragons (fuck Garchomp) and T-Wave immunity would prove very useful. With Latios not too much of an issue it'd be Chomp who gave me most issues if I went with him, so I'll see how it goes :).


    Will test everyone's ideas shortly (hopefully) and report back as soon as I can, which sadly may not be before say Sunday :\. Bit busy at the moment, but thanks again to all of you.

    EDIT: OP updated with currently testing and fixed EVs.
  12. jle1076

    jle1076

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    HP water on Venusaur? lol
  13. Xmagnet

    Xmagnet

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    Good job, however i have a few points for you to consider (if you wish). #1 With my previous experience on weather teams you usually need a back-up in case your weather goes down. Also, may I suggest switching out Venasaur with Roserade w/ Weatherball, Solarbeam, Sludgebomb, and Sunny Day (If you need a back up) or Toxic spikes/Toxic.
  14. Sevre

    Sevre

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    Mar 12, 2011
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    Registered just to comment on this

    Tried this out with Stealth Rock in place of HP Ice as I normally lead with Heatran.

    I've switched in on a fire attack aimed at one of my grass guys, nitro charged the next turn in the sun, then fireblast swept the rest of the other guys team.

    Really love nitro charge now on this poke.

    ------------
    I really like Sawsbuck and Venusaur as the sweepers, and I think you are running the right sets on both.

    I have an unreasonable love for Arcanine on sun teams too, he just seems to be useful even when you don't expect him to be.

    Really liking the team.
  15. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
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    Okay, finally managed to get a few test games in, more to come, very busy atm. Few things to note:

    • Heatran with Balloon and Flame Charge is frigging amazing. First game I used it at on my main alt it quite literally swept half a team. Items not being known from team preview is incredibly helpful to letting him set up, and once the Balloon is known dragons have to play a deadly guessing game - use Dragon attacks to hit hard and break the balloon while risk being walled by Forry, or lock into a Fire move and risk being absorbed? Dissuades the use of EQ against my Arcanine too, which is nice. Been running Timid for fear of Blaziken since without Cress the team has only one Fight resist - Venusaur. The only things it can set up on safely are Tales and Forry, however, the latter of whom can VC and the former of which currently has Toxic (or is accustomed to switching out immediately). An issue may be if people decide to lead with Blaziken since I no longer have Cress, but at present it hasn't caused issues.
    • CB Arc is proving excellent. Not once have I actually missed not being able to switch moves, since I practically always attack once, then switch out. Not used Crunch yet, but it's more there for security against Chandy which could otherwise potentially beat my whole team. FB being a tad more powerful also helps a lot against Reuniclus, as if I can VC off it with Forry then it stands a chance of OHKOing before Reun kills Arc and I have to revenge it. Moreover I've not really missed recovery, since recoil is so reduced. As a contingency plan for leading Blazikens as well as since Tran gives me a Fire immunity, I've been considering using Intimidate. This obviously gives me easier switchins on several foes, and only loses me an immunity to Fire (still effectively a x0.75 resist though). Notably, it lets me live a HJK from Blaziken leading at 15-30%, letting me go on to 2HKO with Extremespeed whatever action it takes. Will test out this ability shortly.
    Not sure if I'll try out other changes if the current ones continue to work so well, but I do need to play more to see what weaknesses the new form of my team has.

    In response to those posting:

    @jle - HP Water? What?!

    @XMagnet - Sunny Day would be nice if I could fit it on anywhere as insurance, but sadly I cannot spare a moveslot. Roserade would be good on most teams but it is Venusaur's Speed which earns it the place on any Sun team, and Roserade lacks this.

    @Sevre - Pretty cool you registered just to post! That Tran set is awesome, see above for my comments. Thanks for the comments on Venu and Saws, and Arcanine is simply awesome, covers a lot of my weaknesses amazingly well and can go on to clean lategame excellently.
  16. NoJohns

    NoJohns

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    Might be a bit of a gimmick but you might want to try out Toxic over Volt Switch on Forretress, simply to give it some kind of pseudo-offense against most boosting sweepers (and steel types get wrecked by the amount of fire attacks you have on your team), and also to suprise common spinblockers (Jellicent is the big one, though you might also catch Chandelure), and I can't see anything that Forretress would be Volt Switching out of that you wouldn't rather want to be badly poisoned.

    Also, you might want to try Choice Band Sawsbuck instead of Life Orb since Sawsbuck is so frail your going to find it doing damage and switching out a lot, and LO only adds up to the recoil from Double-Edge, though Wood Horn does balance things out.
  17. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    Hi there,

    This team is actually really solid for a Sun team. I would know because I just can't seem to make mine work. The problem is the lack of types to be abused in the sun.
    e.g. all chlorophyll users are grass

    also the massive weakness to SR means that it is a pain and you NEED a Rapid Spinner. With Shandera back with Shadow Tag, it is so hard to do that.

    I noticed on my team it was almost inmpossible to find a reliable ground + rock + flying resistors. You've done a good job on the ground weakness, there aren't as much flying moves, thank god, but the rock weaknesses are really annoying me. I can't really see changing only one Pokemon to fix this though, and if you do want to get rid of it it'll mean a lot of your team would change.

    On your Arcanine try this EV spread:
    ??? Nature (+Def, -SAtk) Leftovers
    EVs 240 HP, 28 Atk, 168 Def, 72Spd

    It really does help defensively, meaning you will get a lot more chances to use Morning Sun. DOn't just judge it, actually try it. Sure you lose raw power, but the Flash Fire boosts really do help.

    On Venusaur, if you run EQ you can handle Shandera, which I think your team really does need.

    Other then that it is a pretty solid sun team.

    GL
  18. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
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    Glad the changes are working out for you. I think that if you plan to keep Heatran with Flash Fire than giving Arcanine Intimidate would be an excellent idea. It certainly will see more use than Flash Fire that's for sure.

    I'm also really curious as to whether or not my Landorus suggestion was a good idea or not lol. I'd really like to hear how it performs on your team.
  19. alphatron

    alphatron Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!

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    Haha! Good to hear Flame charge birdy tran has been working out for you. In my experience, two flash fire users on the same team doesn't contribute much, so Intimidate can be used instead on Arcanine easily.
  20. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Thanks again for the replies guys.

    @NoJohns - You bring up a very valid point about Toxic being able to hit most of the switchins I don't like and prevent them from abusing me. However, I'm not going to drop VC for it for two reasons: 1, that I can typically VC after setting hazards on the switch if something something comes in that my team can handle after a boost, for instance getting Tales or the frail Sawsbuck in safely. If there's something extremely threatening then I can simply VC off the bat (against Magnezone etc) to escape and deal with it. 2, that getting Tales in unharmed is very valuable even when running Rest. I will however try out Toxic over Spikes, since I don't always get a chance to use them and as you point out it has a lot of utility.

    Sawsbuck I'm not too keen on the CB simply because he's so fast he likes very much to be switching moves around, and can heal off recoil from LO with Wood Horn. Aromatherapy is also gonna be restricted by a CB, sadly.

    @Dezza Laa - Since I play in Wifi/OU I don't have to worry about Shadow Tag Chandelure XD.

    You are right, I don't have a rock resist which is a pain. However, I often find that the number of Rock attacks hitting my team are few and far between, given that their main abuser TTar also carries Ice Beam to hit my very threatening Grass-Types, so I don't usually have to cope with them (especially if I can burn TTar).

    Arcanine really needs the raw power to deal with threats like Reuniclus, Heatran, Latios and Blaziken who otherwise give my team pretty massive problems. I'd love some more bulk but I really cannot spare it with the role he plays for me, especially now he may be using Intimidate over FF.

    EQ unfortunately nets me poorer coverage and less powerful hits than SB does, which is why I let the rest of my team deal with Tran and Chandy so he can pull off a sweep. I tried EQ for a very long time and it just seems much less useful than SB, especially with Balloon around.

    @Jaroda - Haha no worries, I'll give Landorus a whirl when I get the chance, I'm thinking of a Sub set atm, and if that doesn't work I'll try out RP.

    @Alphatron & Jaroda - When I'm not using Landorus instead of Tran/Cress I'll certainly try Intimidate, thanks for backing up my thoughts.
  21. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Excellent team, I really like it. I see an issue with T-Tar if Sawsbuck and Arcanine go down with their frailty. Also, despite Tar getting crippled by WoW it still gets the sand up after Tales dies. Its similar to the Hippo. If Veunsaur goes down you seem to have issues with it getting Sand up.

    To help with the weather I'd suggest something to consider, one of my Sun team favourites, Balloon Tran. However this Balloon Tran has a surprise, that being Sunny Day.

    With Heatran
    Max SpAtk/Spe
    Fire Blast, Sunny Day, Earth Power, Hidden Power (x)/Magma Storm

    you gain a suicide sun setter which allows you to play looser with Tales in order to get T-Tar down. Unfortunately I don't see a surefire place to put it but it's something to consider if you play around with the team members.
  22. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Okay, I'm gonna update the OP after this post with my changes, but here's my progress report so to speak, having finally been able to dedicate some time to testing stuff:

    • Landorus performed well in Cress' position, serving as a fight resist and something to maim SS teams with. Sub sets worked nicely to do severe damage on whatever came in, as per usual, and RP sets likewise, though the role of fast sweeper was somewhat obsolete. The main issue was that he without Cress in that slot my team felt too frail. Landorus is reasonably bulky, but lacks resists to Dragon in particular that let him come in on them with relative safety. Basically I did really like him on the team, he performed well, just Heatran seems to be overall a bit more helpful.
    • Speaking of which, Tran is doing well, tanking Dragons right and left and coming in on Earthquakes to force various things out. The main difficulty is Balloon's fragility - choosing when you want it to be broken, though this is typically reasonably easy to get around since I have Forry to tank Ground hits and Sawsbuck who can come in on them reasonably well for me. Combined with this, Arcanine having Intimidate is proving good at forcing TTars out so I can Crunch something coming in to resist CC - and having FF on something not as suicidal as him is invaluable.
    Thanks for all the help everyone, my team seems even better than before now, so I'll do a final update for people to see and then let this die, unless anyone has more advice!
  23. RaRaRabbit

    RaRaRabbit

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    This is awesome. This team is solid. Sadly I can't give that much input that hasn't already been said.

    It is REALLY sad that Giga Drain is illegal on Venusaur, because every time I see Energy Ball, I just disappointingly sigh knowing how inferior it is to Giga Drain now, and how sad it is that its illegal on this monster.

    Also, the only other thing I think I could mention is Morning Sun on Arcanine over Crunch, but even then, I don't know if I would personally do that myself. I like survivability more than anything when playing this game, but the use of crunch in taking out ghosts and scary threats like Reuniclus, Chandelure, and the semi popular Slowbro right now... too much to pass up.

    I know you have been working on a sun team forever. I gotta give you props on your dedication to this team through the alterations. This is really solid.
  24. magic_leopard

    magic_leopard

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    Hi, yeah this is a really solid team. I run a team similar to this with different pokes.
    One pokemon who you might consider is a leavanny. Leavanny is my primary revenge killer and a potent force for dealing with annoying chandelure's, as shadow claw OHKO's with one swords dance boost + one layer of spikes. Chlorophyll takes his speed to insane levels, and can really turn a game around.
    I use this set:

    name: sundance sweeper
    leavanny @ focus sash
    ability: chlorophyll
    nature: Adamant
    EV's: 252 Atk/252 Spd/6HP
    move 1: leaf blade
    move 2: X-scissor/baton pass
    move 3: shadow claw
    move 4: swords dance

    Comments: The EVs let Leavanny hit hard and fast, because it isn't expected to survive very long. The extra speed investment is useful if switching into a T-Wave/sandstorm pokemon, and allows leavanny to outrun a lot of pokemon even without chlorophyll, and also outrun other chlorophyll users.

    Careful planning is needed however to avoid priority move users and sandstream users.

    Perhaps Leavanny would be a rival to sawsbuck in sweeping potential?
  25. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    Just to let you know that since you've given up on Cresselia you've lost a VERY crucial ground immunity. You now rely on Sawsbuck's resistance to deal with it.

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