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Gen 2 Something that works. Maybe. Haven't tried.

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Borat, Jun 16, 2010.

  1. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    Miltank also has the Speed to Growl anything before it Curses too. Many times, Blissey will end up having to take a regular (+0) physical attack in order to Growl once, then take a -1 attack to Growl again. Or take two regular attacks should the Curser just attack firsthand. Percentagewise, Miltank takes far less damage (about 20% actually based on testing a few attacks) than Blissey does.

    I don't like Umbreon, but saying that it's useless is just wrong. On teams utilizing Spikes and Toxic, Umbreon's ability to snipe out Starmie (the best Rapid Spinner and a great Reflect user) along with shutting down other Psychics is pretty incredible, plus there's the added bonus of being able to stop most Cursers as well. Gengar's Explosion is far from an OHKO on Umbreon, so it's not always so easy to do a 1-for-1 trade.

    When the opponent has an opportunity to bring in Marowak, Skarmory is always the best option--I'd use Exeggutor before Suicune or Cloyster. Should the Marowak just Earthquake or Rock Slide, Skarmory definitely has the upper hand (Suicune/Cloyster take a massive hit on the other hand), but if Marowak Swords Dances, you still have the ability to pseudo-Haze better than anything else--a Swords Danced EQ does in the neighborhood of 90% damage to Suicune, Rock Slide does around 45% (before Leftovers) to Skarmory. If Suicune is at 80%, Marowak would gladly eat a Surf to get rid of Suicune, Rest later, and come back to repeat it.

    The key to countering Marowak is 1. minimizing the potential opportunities for Marowak to switch in and 2. being able to stop Marowak before it gets rolling
  2. anona123

    anona123

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    i wonder how a rest/st/rockslide/crunch tyranitar would fare in a gsc ubers battle...correct me if im wrong but wouldnt that be the ultimate anti uber pokemon? wouldnt work so well against ou pokemon but thats not what its for

    edit: i just realized thats probably why mew/mew2 run submission
  3. Borat

    Borat

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    My mistake, Umbreon is worthless in the context of this team. You can't send it in against Misdreavus and expect it to 1 for 1 trade like Tyranitar would. Yeah, that's why I didn't go with Umbreon, because whereas Tyranitar guarantees a kill against any ptrapping ghost, Umbreon won't.

    @anona: No, it wouldn't. Every one of the ubers will beat Tyranitar flatout (I don't consider Ho-oh uber).

    If Mew runs Submission, it's probably more for Snorlax. Submission, Shadow Ball, Swords Dance, Explosion/Softboiled is probably the way to go with him. EQ would handle Tyranitar just fine.

    Mewtwo runs it primarily for Blissey, Tyranitar/Houndoom is just bonus.
  4. anona123

    anona123

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    yeah i forgot about mew/mew2 submission. what about lugia vs tyranitar? wouldnt they stall each other until crunch gets enough special defense down then lugia switches out i guess. not sure what will happen if lugia has surf/hydro pump tho. but with most lugias having recover/rest+whirlwind how many run surf/hydro pump? cursegia beats tyranitar with cursed earthquakes but again who uses cursegia? i guess i dont know what lugias standard moveset is for gsc ubers. can you give me a lugia moveset besides cursegia that reliably beats all forms of tyranitar and would do well in competitive gsc ubers?
  5. Borat

    Borat

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    Because there doesn't really exist a GSC uber meta, I can only speculate.

    Submission/Shadowball will probably be better than EQ/Rock Slide on Mew in an uber environment. It's a tossup between Explosion and Softboiled, depending on the team I would think. Lugia will be the premier wall/phazer in the game, coupled with Reflect, is the only reliable thing that'll stop Mew (many forget Lugia has 318 speed), as well as pretty much everything else. Mewtwo would definitely be there, sometimes straight brawn wins battles, regardless of strategy. My guess is, the Self-destruct kind will probably prevail over Recover, and Thunder should be the dominant secondary special attack. Snorlax should make another reappearance, this time as a designated sleeper with LK. Drumlax is worthless here, the sheer power of the pokemon we're dealing with should see to that. Curselax, perhaps coupled with self-destruct for 1 for 1 trades (which is a good thing, given it'll LK something).

    The other two slots make for rather interesting choices:
    Electrics might make a reappearance, and my guess is Zapdos, who learns Thunderwave.
    Heal Bellers might not be so welcome in such a quick environment, but if it is, my guess is probably Blissey over both Miltank and Celebi. Miltank can't handle the special attacks present at this level, and Celebi just has horrible typing. You can be sure teams will be prepared against Psychics. Safeguard might be used in place of HB. "Maybe."
    Spikes probably won't exist in this environment.
    Paralysis will probably be better than Toxic.
    Growtheons, the BP kind, might have some showing.
    I can't see Skarmory being too effective here, it doesn't last long enough and the setup is too quick.
    Starmie might make an appearance, thunderwaving stuff and passing screens.
    Marowak might work, but only in conjunction with agi-bp Jolteon.
    Heracross/Tyranitar will make appearances on some teams.
    Suicune/Raikou would both make rogue appearances in odd teams, as in the counter-meta pokemon.
    Exeggutor could be awesome, being a sleeper, paralyzer, and exploder. And it resists some stuff.
    Umbreon could work every once in a while, against teams unprepared for a ML/BP, given the pace of uber teams.
    And there's Ho-oh, the least deserving of its uber title, forever tainted by poor typing, and probably the worst distribution of the 278/278/318/358/406 stats. Should mews forgo RS, a burn could definitely spell trouble for Mew. And it does wall non-tbolt Mewtwo rather nicely.

    I'm actually really interested to see how such a meta would pan out. New topic of discussion perhaps?

    But if it comes down to a tournament, I'm far more interested in a Snorlax-free OU.
  6. anona123

    anona123

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    i still dont know how lugia beats a rest talking tyranitar in a 1v1 situation. i for one would switch out to suicune rather than leave in lugia against tyranitar
  7. Crystal_

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    I have played some Uber GS some months ago, but anyway with players that like me have never played it before. Some things abaut those battles:
    - Zapdos was common as it was the best Lugia counter in the game.
    - Heracross was very threatening as Lugia was his only common counter used.
    - Physical moves were more useful than Specials and thus more common. Sometimes a TBolt / IB and then physical moves in things like Mew2, Ho-oh, some Lugias or whatever.
    - Psychic moves were very rare.
    - Mewtwo was pretty much like Ho-oh.
    - Snorlax was not very common. Speed was important in Ubers and Fighting moves were common. And it loses 1vs1 against Cursing Lugia (Curselax).
    - Celebi and Bliss were common Bellers.
    - Forre was sometimes useful with Spikes, HP Bug, Explosion, whatever.
    - I sometimes destroyed teams with ML+BP Umbreon, many players forget phazers!
    - I have never seen a Skarmory, though thinking in it now it could be very useful for Lugia (with Curse) and for Heras, ocassional Laxes, and surely more things.
  8. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    We've all played it, but it's more about speculating what might be useful. But as you mentioned, the level of competition is extremely important.

    I cannot see cursegia being the norm in the long run, it has a hard counter in both Zapdos and Skarmory. Stuff with hard counters are not a good thing in uber.

    Heracross should not see too much play either, with its defenses. Sure it hits most things hard, but it already hits most things hard in the OU meta, what's keeping it from being popular? There's Lugia and Zapdos, to a lesser extent, there's still Skarmory.

    GSC OU is a physical meta, especially with the likes of Snorlax/Raikou. GSC ubers should be slightly more balanced based on sheer power alone.

    I can't see anything past Mewtwo use Psychic in any meta really.

    Mewtwo is better than Ho-oh on SD alone.

    ML + BP working is a case of poor competition really. It might work once in a blue moon though, just like with most things. ZC + ML + BP probably still works "sometimes" in any OU tourney.
  9. Mr.E

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    GSC OU is a physical metagame because all the biggest threats are physical. Snorlax is the best all-around pokémon in the game. Marowak, and Machamp to a lesser extent, are the only pokémon that can potentially pose a threat to everything. Dig a little deeper and Tyranitar getting an AP boost usually ends the game. In contrast, Snorlax basically beats all special attackers and most of them are also walled hard by Blissey. The few that aren't walled by the egg get stopped by Raikou/Jolteon instead.

    Starmie can use Psychic as an acceptable neutral attack. It doesn't hit fellow Waters for double but it hits them for neutral (except other Starmie) while warding off Gengar and Machamp. Alakazam always uses Psychic and it's probably the biggest special threat in OU. (Encore forces Blissey out and stuffs Umbreon, making Snorlax and T-Tar the only good "answers" to it.)

    And with regard to our poor, oft-forgotten ubers, Lugia is a way better pseudohazer than Skarmory could ever hope to be. :P Did you know: Lugia can survive a Belly Drum Double-Edge from Snorlax? Yeah, dude's a fucking tank.
  10. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    You should not be struggling with Alakazam if you have either Umbreon or Blissey. Encore makes no progress in killing either. Switch to Snorlax/Skarm/Forr/etc, rinse, repeat. And again, Encore

    Zapdos and Raikou are the two biggest special threats. Raikou is probably the best in the game at racking up residual spikes damage, and Zapdos just hits damn hard. Not even Snorlax can switch into Thunders more than once or twice, and Raikous generally hates paralysis. And spikes too.

    Factoring in Growth, Jolteon, Vaporeon, and even Espeon step up to the plate. And whoever they pass Growth to.

    EDIT: Tyranitar @ AP boost was a fun '03 saying. I don't think it was ever true.
  11. havoc

    havoc pottlepalooza
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    Whirlwind Zapdos is a demon if it has Spikes. it isn't quite as bulky as Raikou, but man, I just love the shit out of Whirlwind Zapdos. you can even run Rest-less with TW/DP/WW/TB and just switch in on Skarmory all day. it's so awesome.

    honestly, though they are so good, I don't consider Zapdos/Raikou the most intense Special threats. they're just lucky that Electric is SE on 2 of the 3 most popular types, but neither can force an issue with another Raikou, which we've already concluded is "the other awesome Special absorber," much less force an issue with both Raikou AND Snorlax.

    here is where I consider a few other things--Exeggutor in particular--better as a Special threat. Snorlax and Raikou (who've been on just about every hypothetical GSC team lately) can usually always switch into Zapdos or Raikou--not quite the case with Exeggutor. I think to be a Special threat, you have to be able to actually be a threat to the Special walls.

    if we factor in BP Growtheons, the problem that Raikou and Zapdos face doesn't really get solved--Thunderbolt still isn't going to do much to another Raikou, and here is where other Special attacking threats plunked to the UU/BL tier (Moltres, Houndoom, Jynx, Alakazam) join Exeggutor in having the advantage of a strong STAB attack that hits both Snorlax and Raikou for neutral damage.
  12. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    Unless Raikou STs, not even he can switch into Zapdos/Raikou constantly, especially if it can't afford being asleep (say a looming Joltwak or something). And should you have spikes, some prediction goes a LONG WAY in dealing with the Raikou/Snorlax combo. 2-3 predictions is all it takes to swing the game in your favor.

    I wouldn't consider Egg as big a special threat, but he can definitely force more switches depending on the set. True Raikou can't switch in as easily, nor Snorlax with the Explosion/Sleep Powder threat, but you open up Skarm/Suicune/Starmie (not so much if you pack Stun Spore)/Forretress as potential walls, which wasn't the case with Zapdos/Raikou.
  13. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    I'm still partial to Alakazam myself... largely because everyone else here continues to bash it for undue reason. ;/ Encore really lets it shine, forcing out defensive pokémon to expose more vulnerable targets to its powerful Psychic, which most others have problems with in some capacity. Looking at our mentioned "awesome special absorbers," Blissey walls everything else except T-Wave Zapdos or Gengar/Jynx SURPRISE Perish Trapper set, yet it can do nothing to 'Zam but bait an Encore and switch out. Raikou comes in on those three all day but has a tougher time against 'Zam because Raikou is outsped and eats 60%+ from Psychic before it gets a turn. (Rest and Sleep Talk can also be Encored, forcing a switch lest Raikou become set-up bait.) The only thing 'Zam has any real trouble with is Snorlax. "So what," everything has trouble with Snorlax. >:| Even then, the threat of not-switching and using Encore can dissuade Snorlax from attempting to set up something as you probably do switch to a better match-up, which is more than can be said of most other special attackers.

    T-Wave Zapdos is pretty awesome, good to see it mentioned. (And I use it!) Raikou very much hates switching into it and Zapdos requires it to beat Blissey. Sleep Talking sets are lame anyway, leave that shit to Raikou. :pirate: Eggy "only" deserves mention for its ability to handle Snorlax.

    Stun Spore is a tertiary option compared to both Giga Drain and Leech Seed on Eggy, the former of which manhandles those Water-types mentioned (plus T-Tar) and the latter of which is applicable to Snorlax and Blissey. Eggy isn't much a special threat, though, so much as a general annoyance due to Sleep Powder and Explosion. *shrug* The same could be said of Gengar since the lack of good STAB actually kinda wastes its otherwise huge SpA. The potential for SURPRISE Perish trapping also scares many potential defenders but Raikou still walls it.
  14. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    I'm the only one here who bashes it. havoc here is one of the biggest advocaters of zam.

    Skarmory/Steelix/Forretress/Starmie/Suicune/Egg are all optional switches to alakazam, either forcing it out, statusing it, or to "reset encore".

    What exactly does Alakazam switch in on anyway? Nothing. It can't take a hit at all. It only switches on a predicted switch, and you should have much better options to go to should that be the case (Snorlax, Marowak, Egg, other stuff).

    Stun Spore takes precedence over Leech Seed should you not run Spikes. Giga Drain is hardly a good option though. It has much better things to do than direct damage.
  15. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Alakazam takes special hits reasonably well. That said, it comes in against Gengar with impunity and is pretty reasonable against any Water-types... actually making it pretty similar to Raikou in that regard. :P It also switches in against any and all non-attack moves (...except from Jolteon) and is especially good against weak attackers that must rely on those moves, such as Umbreon and Blissey.

    None of those switch-ins mentioned are all that dangerous to Alakazam. Starmie is worthless unless it carries T-Wave (who still does that?), Eggy can't really do anything except status/explode (and Stun Spore, the most damning of the bunch, is not a primary option), Forretress must be carrying HP Bug and hope 'Zam doesn't have Fire Punch. The only "good" switch-ins are Snorlax and Tyranitar, keeping in mind that using Pursuit to trap it is risky. If Alakazam stays in and Encores Pursuit, T-Tar is forced right back out as Recover easily outpaces it.

    Sadly, most of Alakazam's best filler moves/attacks are incompatible with Encore (sigh, Seismic Toss...) but it can still carry its elemental punch of choice in that fourth slot. I used to use Fire Punch but, with the wave of new-age douchebags using shit inspired from the newer generations (i.e. using Pursuit at all), I've been using Thunderpunch ever since week 2 SPL when I couldn't kill T-Tar locked into Pursuit (never Burned) and then later it killed me with crit Rock Slide. :pirate: It also saves Psychic PP against stupid Suicune, the biggest threat to PP stall besides Raikou/Snorlax. In the land of everything-uses-Rest, running out of Psychic PP is actually the most omnipresent threat for 'Zam, not a particular "counter" coming in to ruin its day.

    Eggy can't beat Water pokémon or Tyranitar without Giga Drain. That's significant coverage, making it a perfectly fine option if not the preferred one. The way you shun direct damage you make it sound as if it shouldn't carry Psychic either, which is obviously useful to have around as more than simply "discourages Gengar from predicting Explosion." I'm not discounting the usefulness of Stun Spore (or PAR in general) but you need to do damage to win and Giga Drain puts another ~15% of the metagame on Eggy's hit list. You still have your primary and more important status threat, Sleep Powder.

    It's even quite arguable that Giga Drain has better coverage than Psychic... Chew on that little tidbit.
  16. Charlie Brown

    Charlie Brown

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    Alakazam does NOT take special hits at all. Both Zapdos and Raikou hit in the neighborhood of 50% with either attack, and threatens to KO with Thunder. Considering these two are the only true special attackers in GSC, that just about sums the list.

    To humor you, let's continue. Starmie does well over 1/3 with each attack, leaving Alakazam the dilemma of either healing or risk being KOd next turn. And let's face it, how often does Starmie ATTACK anyway, it's either spinning away spikes or setting up a screen or paralyzing something. And if given the choice, why the hell would you go to Alakazam when you could go to Snorlax? Furthermore, Starmie walls Alakazam with ease, especially if you choose to go with Encore.

    If it does switch in on Gengar, it'll be because the Gengar user wants you to switch into Gengar. If I ran a Drumzard team and used Gengar, I wouldn't mind exploding on zam (one of the few pokemon quicker than charizard, after Raikou/Starmie/Jolteon, tying tentacruel/zapdos) to pave way for a Charizard sweep. And I hardly count playing into your opponent's hands an advantage. Or do you mean the standard IP/Tbolt/Explosion/filler Gengar who gets splashed onto teams as a spin wall rather than capitalizing on its true dangerous element of surprise, who've I've been against since the beginning. A predictable Gengar doesn't deserve its OU title. How often do you still see the "standard" Gengar in play? Because that's a poor level of competition.

    Alakazam can switch into Suicune moderately well, not so much if it packs Toxic or Roar with Spikes support though. And like the case with Starmie, who the hell attacks with Suicune? And go to Snorlax/Heracross. Furthermore, Suicune outstalls Alakazam EASILY, who is a 5HKO more than 60% of the time.

    Of course there's Exeggutor, who always has either/both LS or/and Stun Spore.

    After that, you have your mixed sweepers in Dragonite, Nidoking, Pgon2, and Tyranitar. I'm not going to bother with those calculations, but I guarantee every one of those can hit for 50+% with their special attacks.

    In the BL world, you have Houndoom as the best example of a pure special attacker. Alakazam can't switch into any of its attacks... or do anything to it at all really. Then you have Charizard and Typhlosion, whose FB both hit for 50+.

    So it would be nice if you stopped passing off bullshit as facts, thanks.

    Of course, it can take hits from Umbreon, but what the hell are you doing switching INTO umbreon, who most likely packs toxic? The same applies to Blissey. Furthermore, I've dismissed these two (especially the latter) as being garbage Pokemon, so using them in an argument is rather... counterintuitive. You were advocating Blissey remember? Not very successful apparently, because she seems to be the butt of everything negative.

    It's funny you bring in your OWN preferences and pass them off as facts. Stun Spore not being a priority on Exeggutor??? Where Explosion/Giga Drain are? And Forretress carrying HP Bug really a rarity? Does it really matter if Alakazam packs Fire Punch? The topic here is switching in; you're not switching in zam into HP Bug Forretress, and no one sure as hell switches Forretress in on zam unless he knows zam doesn't pack FP.

    So really, Alakazam only switches in on... very little without having to recover the following turn. DP from Skarm does over 1/3, BS from Miltank over 1/3 [+paralysis], Surf from Starmie does over 1/3 [who walls zam in return]. And all three of those are utility Pokemon, meaning rarely attacks. And should they not attack, you should have far better options to go to in Snorlax/Marowak/Heracross/Machamp. And switching in, using their switch turn to Recover, is hardly an advantage.

    Post a log of this match and I'll tell you how you played poorly or how Alakazam is a worthless pokemon. It has to be one of two, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by just calling Alakazam no good.

    You're using Egg wrong. It's an option, I'll give you that. It should not be preferred though, except in very very extreme circumstances. Substitute (gives you options with sleep and stun, blocks rapid spin starmie, etc), LS (the best move for forcing switches, and works awesome in conjunction with Substitute), Stun Spore (this works on everything, nothing resists it, and para is extremely underrated), Sleep Powder (not so much either, it's not a necessity if you know you'll be sleeping either a ST Raikou/Suicune/something that STs and you can't benefit from it, 04 thinking), Explosion (also not a necessity, that's 04 thinking), Psychic (the hit all attack that doesn't really hit all because Psychic has horrible coverage, HOWEVER, ALL GSC teams are weak to Machamp and hence Psychic is preferred, as well as being the stronger neutral attack to special walls in Raikou/Snorlax), Toxic (Egg is one of the best Pokmon at forcing switches and spikes damage, allowing it to single handedly Toxic multiple pokemon reliably, the only one in the meta that can), and Giga Drain (probably the best attack in terms of dealing damage DIRECTLY, but you shouldn't be doing damage directly with Egg, think Gengar).

    Giga Drain's primary turn off is its 5/8 PP. While you technically have the ability to KO Suicune, you won't, because a couple odd switches/mispredictions put you dangerously in out-of-PP territory.

    It's arguable that HP Fire is the better choice of the three.

    With all that said, Alakazam doesn't stand out in the OU meta. In BL perhaps, but too many things can take hits from it and it can't take a single hit in return. Sure it has one turn recovery, but it seems that's all it's doing. There are far better Pokemon that fit the "can't take a hit, but hits hard if given the chance" bill. Machamp is probably the epitome of this. And he hits a hell of a lot harder than alakazam on every front, and more resilient too.

    Blissey is still sucking.

    Giga Drain is an option (the same way HP Fire is an option), but not a priority. Your team must capitalize on the fact that Tyranitar/Starmie can't switch into Egg (e.g. you're looking to reliably explode on Raikou/Suciune to set up Vaporeon/Charizard/Tentacruel/thundermissy or something), but otherwise, it should never be used as a "general attacking move" for "coverage". The only pokemon that should have moves like these are mixed sweepers, where their only job is to hit shit, a wide variety of shit, hard. Exeggutor does not fit that criteria. Same reason you wouldn't give Starmie/Alakazam 3-4 attacks for more coverage, because it really doesn't matter; they're not killing anything anyway.

    "Standard" boltbeam gengar sucks, as much as standard curselax.

    And please post some logs. I'm really curious as to the "current level of competition".

    EDIT: The majority of GSC wins come from either a lucky CH, freeze, misplays, or just sheer brute force through explosion/physical attacks. When's the last time Zapdos KO'd Starmie to decide a game? Or Raikou Skarmory? Or Marowak Raikou? Almost never. Having Giga Drain won't guarantee any kills against water/rocks, it might prevent them from switching in, but Psychic solves that bit just fine against anything that's not Tyranitar/Starmie. And both of them hate being paralyzed. It also opens up a slot (unless you're recommending no Psychic, in which case 8 PP is much too easy to waste for the opponent and once that happens, he becomes a free switch for low HP rest) for one of the plethora of other support moves Exeggutor can use efficiently.

    Of course, there's wins through just sheer outplaying your opponent via toxic/spikes, or in a case of a mismatch, but we're assuming similar competition in a general sense.
  17. Mr.E

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    Not switching 'Zam into HP Bug Forretress? Like, whoa there, wait a minute buddy! Who the hell attacks with Forretress? [​IMG] Or Skarmory, for that matter. What an all-around terrible post. Alakazam Encores utility moves, that's how Alakazam stops the vast majority of those pokémon you listed (and otherwise claim that they wall and/or beat 'Zam). For example, Starmie can't exactly wall Alakazam if it comes in and Encores Rapid Spin (or anything else for that matter). At that point, it doesn't matter if Alakazam chooses to whittle Starmie down with Fire Punch for all it cares. Hell, it can Encore Recover itself and give Marowak or Machamp an opportunity to come in and wreck something, as one of their best "counters" actually has to switch out against it. Both of them even profitably double-switch into Snorlax and Tyranitar, the best switch-ins for 'Zam itself.

    We could go back and forth all day and exactly how this does or does not pose a threat -- "Oh, I'll just switch out on the Encore and run it out of PP." "Well I don't actually have to use Encore most of the time because, once you see I have it, the mere threat of using it is enough to dissuade you." and so on -- but ultimately it's a looming threat that Alakazam creates for everything not named Jolteon. How many four-attack sweepers exist in GSC? Unless you count Machamp, who usually carries Curse, and Nidoking, who is really three attacks + sleep move, there aren't any and 'Zam rips both of those pokémon with STAB super-effective Psychic anyway.

    Substitute doesn't do jack shit to Rapid Spin and HP Fire is clearly inferior as an attack to both of Eggy's STAB options. Starmie walls most any variety of Machamp, or 100% of them if it packs just one of Reflect or Psychic. (You might be looking for Marowak as the threaten-all attacker. Likewise, you mean physical attacks with regard to mixed attackers hitting 'Zam for 50%+.) Nothing "likes" being paralyzed (hi 25% chance to miss a turn) but Tyranitar is slow enough that it cares less than most others. The only pokémon it cares to flinch is Blissey, everything else outspeeds it or makes it switch out. blagh blagh blagh mistakes

    Are you implying that Alakazam can't possibly have an impact in a standard battle without somebody making gross play mistakes? Is Alakazam such a wuss (mind you, a wuss with 338 Speed, Recover, and not-horrible SpD) that it should always die before it runs out of PP? Should 100% of teams contain the same pokémon, such that literally everybody should have Pursuit T-Tar and Body Slam Snorlax waiting in the wings to pounce on a pokémon you seem to think isn't usable in the first place? I'm not even sure what you're talking about here.
  18. Borat

    Borat

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    If Forretress isn't attacking, then why don't you send in something better? ie... snorlax/machamp/heracross/marowak.

    Return whatever, go Alakazam. Starmie used Rapid Spin. Return Starmie, go Suicune/Umbreon/Tyranitar/Blissey/Forretress/Skarmory/Snorlax/plethora of walls offered. Alakazam used Encore???

    Return whatever, go Alakazam. Starmie used Surf. Return Starmie, go Suicune/Umbreon/Tyranitar/Blissey/Forretress/Skarmory/Snorlax/plethora of walls offered. Alakazam used Encore???

    Starmie used Thunderwave. Fuck.

    But to humor you. You're right, you don't have to use Encore, but they don't have to switch out either. There's little risk/reward if any.

    Return whatever, go Alakazam. Starmie used Rapid Spin. Alakazam used Encore, Starmie used Rapid Spin. Return Starmie, go Suicune/Umbreon/Tyranitar/Blissey/Forretress/Skarmory/Snorlax/plethora of walls offered, Alakazam used Psychic for <22% after leftovers.

    Return whatever, go Alakazam. Starmie used Surf. Alakazam used Encore, Starmie used Surf. Return Starmie, go Suicune/Umbreon/Tyranitar/Blissey/Forretress/Skarmory/Snorlax/plethora of walls offered, Alakazam used Recover to end up with less HP than it started with.

    At what point do the benefits appear?

    Again, why are you sending in Alakazam into a Starmie who you know is using Rapid Spin? Isn't that a huge DRUM NOW sign, or SUP EXPLOSION SETUP, or GENGAR, y'know, Pokemon that are known to kill stuff.

    Encore isn't a "threat" unless it comes in on a Drum. Everything else can follow with a switch/attack, and half your team should be at least a 4-5HKO anyway for a variety of switches.

    Plenty. Dragonite, Tyranitar, Snorlax, Machamp, Nidoking (you can nitpick here), Marowak, Rhydon are a few just in OU alone. Because Alakazam switches INTO Nidoking/Machamp right? And once it does, they usually stay in if they're in OHKO range right? Give your "hypothetical competition" some very modest skill please. And Machamp rarely carries curse, what the hell? Machamp is an amazing non-setup mixed attacker and a terribly difficult Pokemon to set up.

    Egg is more useful than Starmie on every non-spinning level. Sub blocks spin like np, coupled with Stun Spore that already gives egg the speed adv. HP Fire is surprisingly effective, probably moreso than Giga Drain. A combination of either Suicune, Raikou, Snorlax, or Skarmory is generally the switch. General strategy against egg is [random] pokemon takes sleep, then Skarm can come in on Egg all day to without fear of sleep or explosion. It's also flying which avoids unnecessary spikes damage. With HP Fire, their teams need a plan B, which generally includes switching in either Snorlax/Suicune/Raikou/Starmie, which a lot of offensive teams capitalize on exploding. 8 PP attack that runs off 90 after-STAB base power is pathetic to anything neutral, sorry. And you, being one of the few people that was actually able to run out of PP with zam before it dying should know that. blagh blagh blagh mistakes. Sounds like you don't believe the own bullshit your spewing.

    Zam's SD is HORRIBLE coupled with that HP, and for all intents and purposes, he has no resistances. 1 turn recover doesn't even compensate unless you're switching into Rapid Spin/Growls all day. Alakazam has the staying power of a virgin dick, stop arguing otherwise.

    338 speed is almost irrelevent for offensive purposes (almost), since for speed to matter, it needs to be able to exchange hit in return (because it isn't going to OHKO, 2HKO, or even 3HKO anything). Sure it gets Psychic first on Raikou, but it's switching into a tbolt for 40%, taking a crunch while psychic hits for 27%, then spamming Recover the next 4 turns? Sounds like a plan man. Speed ONLY matters when you're KOing something that turn, that should never happen, hence it doesn't matter if you go first or second in terms of attacks. The only part where speed plays a factor here is that it gets the first Encore on anything (bar Jolteon), but Encore has already been mentioned. Encore, ultimately, is just a phazing move, one that *sometimes* avoids damage if used properly. I know that, you know that, we all know that. Let's not hype it up. It's not garnering any kills, it might save your ass from Drum once or maybe even twice, but you/your opponent are definitely doing it wrong if Alakazam is your answer to Snorlax. And Encore zam can't even reliably shut down hypnomissy... its rise to fame.

    Give Encore to Zapdos/Raikou then we might have something...

    Yes. Assuming standard refers to stall-moderately defensive teams. Anything can make an impact on offensive teams. If you're trying to KO Suicune but constantly running out of PP battle after battle, maybe it's time to admit Alakazam is pretty fucking bad and not really a case of "poor PP management" or "wasn't lucky with CH/SD down PPs." Alakazam was moderately playable in RBY, but almost every change with GSC makes zam worse. CH, Psychic special down %, SD, overall increase in SD, 2 turn rest, two new types, physical meta, so on and so on.

    Snorlax is assumed to be on every team, either Suicune/Starmie generally are on med-slower teams, and some form of Skarmory/Steelix/Forretress, and Raikou/Zapdos, and probably a beller, and probably a msc pokemon. I don't know what kind of teams you're playing though. I'd love to see it perform against Vil/Bob-esque team. Wait, it can't.

    But against more offensive teams, Alakazam might do something, but that's a different topic. Breaking an offensive team's defenses isn't something to be proud of, and it's not like alakazam has too good of a chance switching into anything too offensive. Such as, something I just whipped up (akin, untested). Feel free to pilot it en route to your next SPL victory:

    Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Flying]
    - Rock Slide

    Rhydon (M) @ Leftovers
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Substitute
    - Zap Cannon

    Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
    - Body Slam
    - Dynamicpunch
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder

    Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
    - Cross Chop
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Rock Slide

    Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
    - Curse
    - Double-Edge
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Rest

    Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
    - Crunch
    - Dynamicpunch
    - Pursuit
    - Thunderbolt

    Needs more explosion... fuuuuc...

    And, logs please? I'm curious to see Alakazam in action from a skilled perspective.
  19. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    There's also Ttar, who obviously rips 'Zam to shreds. Also, as I was about to post, Borat listed about 12938579 more, so yeah, 4-attackers aren't terribly uncommon.

    Personally, I feel that Zam, almost guaranteed to be killed if Tyranitar is present, as well as just being utterly pounded by any attack he happens to switch in on, is not too viable. Potentially usable, but that usability is compromised if your opponent is capable of making a few key predictions and hitting Zam with an attack as it comes in. Assuming he even needs to predict in order to do that in the first place. But I've never used Encore Zam before, so I wouldn't be encyclopaedic in this regard.

    And do many people use Twave on Starmie anymore? I thought it was mostly Rapid Spin + Reflect/Psychic nowadays. It's a threat, obviously, but is it a sufficiently common one among skilled players?
  20. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
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    Thunder Wave was lost through meta gaming. Some people stopped using it, not necessarily because it wasn't effective anymore, but perhaps that certain team needed Reflect more. Players get beat by said team, follow said changes, and whoosh. Furthermore, Zapdos became a designated sleep talker, dropping twave (albeit reflect Zapdos still sees "some play"). Moreover, Thunder increased in popularity, and combined with Body Slam, gave people the "illusion" that those two moves were a sufficient replacement to twave. Also, teams began to focus specifically on Toxic as the primary status, random shit starting running fire moves to propagate that.

    I don't think there was ever a time where paralysis wasn't welcome. Honestly, I can't see a common switch to Starmie that likes getting paralyzed. A paralyzed Snorlax is far less likely to drum/rests at higher HP, both Raikou/Zapdos like their speed, and Eggy generally has no way of getting rid of it. Suicune is suicune, and a paralyzed one makes Marowak happy.

    Hypothetical:

    Raikou @ Leftovers
    - Hidden Power [Water]
    - Rest
    - Roar
    - Thunder

    Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
    - Earthquake
    - Rest
    - Rock Slide
    - Swords Dance

    Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
    - Curse
    - Drill Peck
    - Rest
    - Whirlwind

    Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
    - Body Slam
    - Belly Drum
    - Earthquake
    - Rest

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover
    - Surf
    - Thunder Wave

    Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
    - Body Slam
    - Growl
    - Heal Bell
    - Milk Drink

    EDIT: Meant Drum.
  21. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
    is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
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    I think you guys need to keep in mind that teams aren't made up of infinite pokémon and a person isn't liable to be carrying any particular one on their team. The only pokémon you can even begin to assume "should" be on every team is Snorlax. (That's not the case in reality either, but...) Even then, it doesn't have to be Drumlax and there's a large difference between, say, LK Drumlax, standard Curselax, and Selfdestructors. e.g. Continuing off the example I provided, I can't switch Gengar into Starmie's Rapid Spin if I don't have Gengar on my team, or if I already blew it up on Raikou, or Starmie has Psychic... Also, while Alakazam takes slightly above-average damage even from special attacks, Recover is a more powerful recovery move than Rest. Threatening a 3HKO prevents Rest from being effective and even a 4HKO forces a Rest loop, where 'Zam can take upwards of 50% before its Recover loop is broken (and threatens to be OHKOed by a crit).

    You can theorymon that anything is useless if you try hard enough but it doesn't necessarily carry over to reality. Gee, what's so good about Zapdos when all it does is hit Raikou switch-ins for 15% all day and gets just as raped by Snorlax as every other special attacker? (No, Thunder doesn't stop Snorlax from raping Zapdos. It's still a borderline 4HKO with Leftovers, is less damaging over time than Tbolt considering accuracy, and is also unreliable when you otherwise just need to hit your Electric move.) Does Suicune even DO anything besides not-die? It has no utilitarian use, besides absorbing sleep with a Sleep Talk set (which theoretically anything can do), and it's not an offensive threat to anything except Grounds and T-Tar. Are Jynx and Gengar only threats because of a sleep move and threatening an alternative means of killing?

    And I still don't know where you get the idea that Substitute blocks Rapid Spin. Even ignoring that Starmie is going to Spin before Sub even goes up (on the switch or going first next turn), Substitute does not prevent Rapid Spin from removing Spikes. ;/ Hell, it even removes Leech Seed if Starmie has the cajones to not switch, although it won't make any progress on Eggy's Leftovers only getting to Surf every 3-4 turns.

    I'm not sure how this counts as criticism at all. Am I not pretty good if I can actually manage to keep an Alakazam alive, a pokémon who supposedly gets whooped by everything ever, until it runs out of attacking PP? *shrug* What it tells me is that Alakazam is amazing at forcing switches and hurts stuff. Maybe the fact I use Spikes makes a difference? :P

    Fair enough. Do keep in mind that Pursuit is not a straight-up answer to 'Zam, though, and it can freely switch out against anything else. (Likewise, it's not even guaranteed to remove Gengar, who can put it to sleep or carry Dynamicpunch.) Like Machamp, T-Tar is also expected to carry Curse reasonably often.

    Well, what's wrong with that? The fact that it avoids damage is a big plus, as it makes Alakazam a more powerful threat in that regard compared to something like Skarmory or Suicune. Okay, it can't switch into Snorlax's Body Slam worth a crap. It also doesn't have to eat a Body Slam if it switches in on Curse or anything else... thereby encouraging Snorlax to just keep spamming Body Slam, else Alakazam might switch in and force it out. The constant threat forces the opponent to adjust their play for the worse, a large advantage which a traditional pseudohazer just can't do. (i.e. Two unboosted Body Slams > one +1 BS >>>>>>> nothing.) It's also much better against some things you might otherwise want a pseudohazer for, such as "Thundermissy" (but not Steelix!), sleep-trappers or Curse-phazers.

    It's a real shame, too. Paralysis is far, far better than shitty poison. Toxic is a one-time force switch that otherwise does nearly insignificant damage (once it's converted to regular PSN) in exchange for protection against worse status effects. I guess it can't hurt if you're not using other status on your team but most teams carry sleep in some capacity and Body Slam is largely preferred over Return / Frustration / D-E exactly because the benefit of PAR usually outweighs the minor extra damage. Actually, it can hurt, because it's wasting a moveslot... ;/

    With regard to T-Wave specifically, though, it's because T-Wave isn't as omnipresent as it is in RBY. GSC pokémon can't use the old TM at all and even some of the old guard lose it as an incompatibility with breeding moves. Toxic remains a TM and basically everything learns it, so no problem there.
  22. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    805
    Then, why the hell are you running Alakazam in place of something better in the first place? Those three were just examples, if you wanted something that could straight up hit shit hard on the switch, I think I provided a pretty good list of that too. I honestly can't fathom a legitamate GSC team that doesn't have a single offensive threat that bests Alakazam in any situation. All three (more like 50 really) versions of Snorlax are better than Alakazam, your point?

    I don't think you understand. If Alakazam is forced to Recover, which it generally will be on anything that does upwards of 1/3 after leftovers, it doesn't gain anything from switching into said attack. Not to mention, should you decide to Recover, you'd be on the receiving end of another attack from the pokemon that just replaced the active one.

    Because Snorlax, once paralyzed, is scared shitless of Zapdos/Raikou thunders. That is, of course, with spikes support. And here's the kicker: both Zapdos and Raikou can switch into on average 4-5/6 without problem, unlike a certain spoon-wielding anorexic.

    Suicune doesn't do too much other than not-die, but it does a hell of a job at it. It's the bane of most mixed sweepers, and is pretty much one of the most underrated reasons as to why no special sweepers exist (along with Raikou, Snorlax, and Blissey), since it walls every single non-electric STAB attack (your friend Zam's psychic notwithstanding). Offensively, its typing alone poses threats to some of the most common heavy hitters in Dragonite, Ttar, Nidoking, Marowak, Rhydon, etc. The ST set allows it to pretty much take sleep from anything that packs it, something no other common sleep talker can guarantee. ST Raikous play the prediction game with Nidoking, Heracross with FB King/Egg, Zapdos with Jynx, etc. And does Skarmory do anything other than not die? Does Blissey do anything other than bell and act as a huge special wall, but cowers in fear against DP from Pikachu, hence essentially worthless. Does Marowak do anything other than attack?

    Gengar is a threat because it has 2384729 ways of guaranteeing at least a 1 for 1 trade with you, and quite likely a 2 for 1.

    Jynx is el clasico, style points, not too effective unless you go the sleep trapping route.

    I don't know. It's imprinted in my mind that Rapid Spin needs to break the sub to activate any of its secondary effects. Whatever. Substitute makes Leech Seed great (absolutely invincible against Snorlax), it lets you snipe with Sleep Powder/Explosion, it might save you an extra turn that you would've mis-predicted your stun spore, and is just awesome because after Snorlax, most teams are really hard pressed to deal with Egg and its awesomeness and are forced to switch around, racking up spikes damage, while egg happily hides behind sub and seeds or spores or psychics away (and sometimes out of the blue, BAM sleep powder/explosion on something super important). Giga Drain doesn't do anything here.

    Request #3: log?

    Because it's not guaranteed. It's still heavily prediction reliant, and there's still that PP issue. WW would suck if it had 8 PP mind you.

    An example would be: "It also doesn't have to eat a Body Slam if it switches in on Curse or anything else"

    Switching in Alakazam in on a curselax (who uses those anymore?) is a horrible risk:reward decision as opposed to something like Skarmory. But you're right, it does instill another level of prediction on your opponent. HOWEVER, in this case, I don't see the merits of Alakazam over something like... Clefable. That is... afterall, the argument: Alakazam, not Encore. Encore is a great move, Alakazam is a horrible Pokemon. Delibird is not great, nor is Qwilfish or Smeargle, and Alakazam is no different.

    Not true. You're not thinking in GSC terms. In the long run, that extra BS PP might mean more than you could ever imagine, rather than the mere 50% extra damage that probably didn't net you a kill anyway.

    Really? That's surprising. Man I need to give these S "P" L players lessons. The age-old curse ttar is awful except against teams that are heavily Skarm reliant. Both Starmie (the crunch kind loses to steelix) and Suicune stop it cold, and there's Miltank [not Blissey though, who sucks]. It might work once in a blue moon, but so does ML+BP Umbreon. It's original rise to popularity was its "part 2" in stopping curselax (to skarm's part 1, should it pack FB), back when curselax was still a threat, before people got creative with growltank and shit. Effective back when teams had three speeds: slow, moderate but with horribly built teams (this was before GSC offense was truly understood), and stopped. Ttar's strength lies in either mixed sweeping, or more importantly, in pursuit. Pursuit doesn't necessarily have to hit psychics/ghosts to be effective. In fact, I'd warrant it's ability to wear down Skarmory more important that the former (unless your team is getting raped by spin wall or something). 18% is a LOT of damage, especially when skarm lose the leftovers recovery, and it comes at the cost of almost nothing. One pursuit puts it in Flinch/CH ko range for Marowak, 2 puts it in CH range for drummed Body Slam, 3 + some chip damage puts it in KO range for drummed DE or SD'd RS, and throw Heracross in the mix too. And you can force this matchup almost at will; I mean, come on, how easy is it to force an active Skarmory in GSC? It's definitely one of the few gamebreaking moves in GSC and offers another dimension in offense.

    GSC is my forte man, Alakazam is no good here. The RBY debate was just for fun really, everything was mostly theory. This is all personal experience, and years of drunk thoughts and ponderings. Arguments can be made for it on a BL level, but it can't hang with anything OU. Show me any team with Zam, and I'll build you a better team without it (a claim I couldn't make in RBY).

    Blissey is still bad, it gets caught in the crossfire of people trying to counter Snorlax (e.g. the DP fad of recent).

    EDIT:

    Paralysis for any team that's doesn't rely on spikes+toxic (and by rely, I mean rely) is the better status. But some well played toxic+spikes are just plain nasty. 2-3 proper predictions put you in no man's land, so I wouldn't go badmouthing it just yet. Too bad no one has the skill to pilot them anymore. However, toxic just tacked on teams is worthless, or even with spikes if you have anything short of elite prediction abilities.

    There are no "worse statuses" in the first two gens though, at least not reliably (except sleep, but you shouldn't toxic anything before you put something to sleep anyway). Plus, a -leftovers on certain stuff adds up. Snorlax dies noticeably quicker to special attacks.

    However, the biggest gripe I have with toxic users/teams is its misuse. Putting toxic on skarmory/suicune is moronic. Toxic isn't a move you splash onto Pokemon, that's probably why it has such a bad rep, it's NOT A FILLER MOVE. Treat it as you would the focal point of your team (because if you're using it, it should be). Using the previous example, the only thing you'd end up poisoning is probably an opposing Suicune or Raikou/Zapdos. So you're wasting two slots for essentially 1 move, use it on one and move on. I even see toxic umbreon on the same team, 2 wasted slots by a clueless GSC stall player. Put toxic on zapdos or snorlax or something, or exeggutor, to ensure toxic spreads throughout your opponent's team. Be creative, Machamp even (don't do it).

    EDIT2: If you're tired of hopelessly defending zam, we can go back to blissey. But that's really a lost cause too, probably a lot more so than zam, so back to ubers speculation.

    Discussions like these are nice. Too bad they're more rare than <something really rare>.

    Needs vil/havoc.

    EDIT3: Diamonds.
  23. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
    is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    3,562
    Hey now, Marowak "just attacking" is a lot different than "not-dying." Attacking kills shit and you win the game when that happens enough times. >:o Not-dying just makes you not-lose, which isn't as good as winning. But hey, you use Marowak yourself anyway, you know what I mean.

    Like Suicune, Skarmory is a poster child for not doing anything except not-dying, hence I don't like it either. Same with Umbreon. Blissey... not so much. It can pass screens and Heal Bell, though Reflect is incompatible with breeding moves. It's no better an offensive threat but it can actually do things to help the team beyond "switch in on something that can't kill it easily and make it switch out." And for what it's worth, even a good amount of "hax" doesn't allow special attackers to break Blissey, unlike one of those untimely Belly Drum D-E crits from Snorlax to Skarmory you keep mentioning...

    Hell, there isn't a common pseudohazer that does something besides not-die. Steelix can Explode -- that's something useful -- but you can't really do that until you no longer need it to Roar things. That's why I like 'Zam. It acts as a pseudohazer in most regards but it can deliver the pain on its free time. If you use a less common pseudohazer, like Raikou / Zapdos or Rhydon / T-Tar, well then thumbs up to you.

    I've never seen anything with more than 10 base PP run out of PP, short of getting caught in some rare last-pokémon scenarios that force PP stalling.

    Well, Clefable is going to be less risky with regard to switching into Curselax or similar and then Encore can give you a free turn to Belly Drum. Clefable certainly ain't bad. However, it's not fast enough to catch trappers in a Mean Look, among other less important things.

    You can argue its effectiveness all you want but the fact is that people sometimes use Curse on Tyranitar and it isn't all that rare. *shrug* I don't care for it much myself but there's nothing really wrong with it. It has a hard time with Suicune, Machamp, and Attack debuffers regardless of its moveset. (Even Blissey, as dropping your Speed prevents you from flinching it.) Curse makes it more threatening in general at the sacrifice of being vulnerable to Starmie and kinda Umbreon.

    Coming back to GSC for the SPL, I've grown on Pursuit (and Rapid Spin). It wasn't used at all back in the day but since thinking about GSC again, I've come to terms that it's quite usable. I'm always of the attitude that you take the kill whenever you can get it and after a long time of keeping up with the current metagame, from Dugtrio in Advance to Pursuit's much bigger relevance in DPP now... It's obviously not the same powerhouse in GSC but it can still lead to a relatively easy trap kill and that's a very good thing.

    That said, slowly wearing down Skarmory can't very well be the most important thing it does. As nice as it is to chip it enough for Marowak to 2HKO, it's not that big a deal since Marowak ultimately beats it anyway. Snorlax cares a lot more about landing the Body Slam paralysis than it does trying to get enough chip damage to threaten a 6.25% CH-OHKO post-Belly Drum. Skarm always carries Rest anyway, making chip damage ultimately less relevant than it is against something like Gengar.

    I've stuck with the current-gen games for the most part but GSC has always been my realm. My team, which hasn't significantly changed in years, has Alakazam as a pivotal member and I've never been inclined to replace it with anything else. My personal experience says the exact opposite of yours and mine's probably a lot more reliable because I've actually used it all this time.

    I also don't understand why you dislike Blissey so much. What makes Miltank so much better, because it's not set-up bait for Drumlax? Big deal. It still can't beat Snorlax and it doesn't fare much better against Machamp. On the other hand, Blissey can switch into Raikou and [99% of] Zapdos with impunity. Miltank can paralyze things with Body Slam but Blissey can Light Screen for teammates (especially Marowak...). Miltank has better neutral damage, however much that's worth, but Blissey's elemental moves (and Psychic) allow it to selectively cover certain things better. Ice Beam, the most likely choice, is decent against Marowak and is bound to eventually freeze something in an extended fight. (Dragonite too, who is terrible FYI.) Blissey is just different from Miltank, hardly inferior.


    And here's logs just so you'll shut up about it. I'm not going to edit extraneous things, tidy anything up, etc... I usually don't keep logs but I happened to save a couple of my SPL battles with my recent couple opponents. (In case I needed them for proof of victory... dunno why I didn't save the others, shush.) They're not necessarily great logs but they are logs! Funny enough, both of them happen to showcase 'Zam manhandling Umbreon.

    Me against MoP, Week 6 SPL (two weeks ago):
    http://pastebin.com/er2hSDpF

    MoP is generally respected as a strong battler, granted I don't know how good he really is at GSC in particular. (There's also the possibility that he wasn't playing 100%, since his team was in jeopardy of not making the playoffs, but our match was played before the team match-up was decided.)

    I wasn't expecting to crit Snorlax when I killed it with 'Zam -- lucky me -- but I'm always down for a 1-to-1 trade to kill Snorlax, since it basically would've been sacrificing itself had it chose to Body Slam again for the kill instead of Rest. Using Rest to preserve himself would've also allowed 'Zam to escape harm. In addition to making a fool of Umbreon, 'Zam also shuts down Gengar.

    Me against Giga Punch, Week 7 SPL (last week):
    http://pastebin.com/XmCZQhhE

    MoP is notorious for heavily scouting tourney opponents, hence the grievous error with Marowak. :pirate: I used a Sleep Talk set (with Body Slam) against MoP without SD and I forgot to change the Attack DV back to 13 when I went back to my usual team set-up to battle GP. The 'Zam nonsense at the end there was simply to preserve my 6-0, since Perish Song otherwise would've allowed to kill after 3-4 Curses on the final turn. :P

    I also battled VIL Week 2, just in case you question the quality of my recent opponents. (Didn't save the log since I lost!) He led with Pursuit T-Tar, which is very bad for me since Alakazam is my normal lead. Late-game, I had him Encored into Pursuit for a long while but alternating Fire Punch + Recover deals no lasting damage to T-Tar and I never managed to burn it. After Encore wore off the second or third time, I stopped using it to entice VIL into Rock Slide, allowing 'Zam to switch out safely while Marowak still switches in easily... and died to a crit. -_- That's some lame luck in the end but it goes to prove my point that T-Tar doesn't automatically rape 'Zam. I've been using Thunderpunch on Alakazam since "just in case" something like this occurs again, hitting for neutral at least lets it out-damage Leftovers.

    Against VIL, I eventually lost because I was unable to break through Blissey at the end of the battle. (Blissey is bad, huh?) Had I used my usual movesets (Explosion instead of DBond on Gengar, didn't use Heal Bell on Blissey...), or if Zapdos could've ever gotten a fucking FP or crit against Blissey after the 12-13 tries I had before poison eventually killed it, or if 'Zam had not gotten crit... But oh well.

    MoP's infamous scouting efforts is also when I started using Perish Trapping Gengar in lieu of my usual "Standard" (Tbolt, Ice Punch, Explosion, filler move that always changes) and, frankly, it's been pretty useless in every battle since. I longed for Ice Punch every time I ran into douchebag Nidoking. Tyranitar, especially with the proliferation of Pursuit-Tar in this "new age" of GSC, makes me want Dynamicpunch. I rarely have Hypnosis as my filler move, as I constantly sub it in and out as its poor accuracy lets me down again and again, but its versatility and utility is undeniable (especially on my team which otherwise lacks a sleep user). I figured the threat posed by more usual Gengar and the relative surprise of it Perish Trapping (as opposed to using Misdreavus in the role) would make it good but... it really isn't. :[
  24. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    805
    But there's no such thing as a designated specials-only sweeper, all special special sweepers have a physical move tacked on. The regular special attackers aren't a threat to Raikou/Snorlax/Suicune trio already (all 3 of which are going to be on any team Blissey's on), making Blissey redudant.

    Apart from Suicune/Skarmory, the former which is preferably used as a ST-er to wall a multitude of stuff, I don't think any p-hazer fits your criteria. And Skarmory just is because it's great at it. It's your best answer to Marowak/Snorlax on any front, zam can't be mentioned in the same sentence. Zam isn't a phazer, he happens to have a p-hazing move. Whatever he phazes doesn't really need to be phazed is the point I'm making. Stuff like Starmie and Skarmory already switch-out based on freewill. If you're going to phaze anything worth while, you're putting Alakazam in danger of 60%+ attacks.

    Then play more/play slower/attack more.

    Does it really matter if Clefable can't Encore ptrappers if I'm going to send in a phazer anyway? Hypothetical situations in which all phazers are dead is stupid for a basis of argument.

    You can't guarantee ghosts being on every team, but Skarmory is omnipotent. Hence it's become routine.

    No it doesn't. Marowak on its own requires a CH Rock Slide (which on average occurs just under once per PP-cycle), or multiple Flinches. Example of this NOT happening can be found in my other thread.

    Miltank is a physical wall in a physical meta. It makes use of growl far better because of its physical side. It isn't a free "switch snorlax into me" because of physical attacks. Physical. Miltank is also another amazing mixed sweeper wall, and does well against an underrated [in this thread] Heracross.

    Blissey has Sing. That's the only redeeming point. It's not going to do you any good against anything offensive.

    I'll look at logs later, but is this the hypothetical team that I'll be improving?
  25. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    805
    Oh man, this is too easy. Both teams between you and mop look outdated, and I think the best way to summarize it is: Mr.E: who uses umbreon. I don't really get either teams really, and spikes was the deciding factor (as well as questionable plays by mop). Why sacrifice Egg when it's clear Heracross won't be doing anything with Zapdos waiting in on it? Why not explode Marowak was the looming threat that led to a lot of misplays. Alakazam did what again? Oh yeah, it CHed Snorlax. Cool.

    And GP is using the same fucking team. What the fuck.

    And I'm not surprised that a team with [more or less] 4.5 special attackers loses to Blissey. Zapdos was your only chance to break Skarmbliss really, since Marowak on its own doesn't do anything to Skarmory. Is Rapid Spin really not that popular anymore?

    If this really is the competition nowadays, then I guess there isn't too much to discuss here.

    Try the aforementioned, you'll/your competition should see more success:

    Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Flying]
    - Rock Slide

    Rhydon (M) @ Leftovers
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Substitute
    - Zap Cannon

    Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
    - Body Slam
    - Dynamicpunch
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder

    Machamp (M) @ Leftovers
    - Cross Chop
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Rock Slide

    Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
    - Curse
    - Double-Edge
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Rest

    Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
    - Crunch
    - Dynamicpunch
    - Pursuit
    - Thunderbolt

    And it's really guaranteed 50 turn wins even against the stalliest of teams.

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