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Sonic & Knuckles (Currently #1 Gen 5 UU)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Metal Sonic, Oct 6, 2013.

  1. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,678
    **Renamed**

    Hey everyone! This is Metal Sonic, and I believe it's time to retire my #1 trusted team which was built just after BW2(2012) and I have been using until now. I play a ton of UU(and other tiers too!), so many of you have seen me play with this team on perfectly normal and #1 alts burstdrone, curiousinvestment, or extremely douchy alts like "Sonicthebest which poetically did not get #1. Anyway.

    Clarification: The 2973 ACRE is for interest purposes and a fun fact. It's not official and is not recognised by larger institutions; just like I can't say that I juggle pairs of scissors at home in my application for a Martial-Arts instructor.(This is real too) However, the #1 ranking can be accepted for an official peak.

    I've played about thousands of games with this and it has led me to make a few C&C analyses based on this team; my favourite is the Hitmonlee analysis on-site.
    2973.png

    screenshot.png

    Update: 27 October 2013 - 12 November 2013
    #1 metalsonic1.png
    [​IMG]
    This team is really tough to use, as the usage of Hitmonlee demands very special (and careful!) attention, so I suggest you read this guide thoroughly.

    At a glance...

    upload_2013-10-6_10-4-28.png


    This team revolves around Empoleon and Hitmonlee -- Metal Sonic and Knuckles -- as win conditions. The other pokemon are built to destroy their specific counters, and weren't meant to be sweepers, but a few hundred games in I have realised that each and every one of them are also able to wreck giant holes in the opponent's team, and still sweep. Make good use of all of them!

    Let's start off with one of the most underrated Ghosts in the tier, Mismagius.

    [​IMG]


    Nega-Wisp (Mismagius) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt
    Mismagius was the second last pokemon to be fitted on my team; it was like glue. During the teambuilding process, I had to think of counters for Psychic-types and Ghost-types. The two types that could defeat them where Dark or Ghost. I figured that a spinblocker would do me good, so I elected to have a Ghost. Which Ghost should I chose? I wondered. There weren't many Ghosts to choose from; I had to select one that didn't make me lose momentum(Cofagrigus, get out!)

    Mismagius boasts awesome Speed, Special Defense, and Special Attack, just my kind of pokemon. It uses Shadow Ball to those Psychic-types and Ghost-types that give trouble to Hitmonlee, and Thunderbolt is specially to kill Slowbro. But it comes in handy as well against other stuff like Suicune, Blastoise, and also very importantly Yanmega. I'll touch more on that later on.

    Substitute is very useful for those noobmons who cannot touch Mismagius, thanks to her three immunities and multiple resistances. Stuff like Hitmontop, Claydol(and this is a textbook example of why Claydol sucks), Choice-locked Mienshao gives Mismagius setup opportunities, then you can use Nasty Plot to pulverise the opponent or just use it to attack twice. Best of all, Leftovers recovery can help you regain all that health lost to Substitute.

    Next up, the Physical Monster of the team, Vector
    [​IMG] upload_2013-10-6_11-54-32.png

    Vector (Rhyperior) (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    EVs: 180 HP / 128 Atk / 192 Def / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast
    - Ice Punch
    - Stealth Rock
    Rhyperior is to set up Stealth Rocks and is my "Physical Wall". It's main job is to kill Arcanine, as its Extremespeed hard counters Hitmonlee. A nice couple of bonuses is the ability to counter Darmanitan, Victini, Flygon, Snorlax, Honchkrow, and lots more.

    The EVs are set to allow maximum pain upon the opponent. Adamant with Attack investment mean that spamming Earthquakes against the opponent to be a threat. The HP and Defense EVs are to give Rhyperior the best HP:Defense ratio, in order to reduce the damage dealt by Physical attacks, yet not neglecting its HP stat to take Special hits. Finally, 8 Spd EVs are great for outspeeding opponent's Rhyperior. I once had this player who cried "Speed tie haxer" when my Rhyperior smashed through his, even though he was clearly having 0 Spd EVs.

    Rock Blast is chosen for being a Multi-hit move. Liepards can die, and Ninjasks will run away in fear. Furthermore, stuff that think that can set up a Substitute on me (opponents' Mismagius, Honchkrows, etc) get browbeaten by an invested STAB base 140 Attack Rock Blast. Ice Punch is special here; normal mainstream Rhyperiors run Megahorn or Dragon Tail or Roar. Ice Punch is exceptionally good for killing Flygon and Gligar, and also checking Grass-type switch ins that give Empoleon trouble, such as Shaymin or Roserade.

    A few extra things that Rhyperior checks are Bisharp, Cobalion, Mienshao(Earthquake OHKOs, while HJK does not) and Heracross (Rock Blast 2HKOs at worst and OHKOs with 5 shots). It also kills random stuff like Archeops, Muk, and things that you see fit.

    Credits to col49 for suggesting a better EV spread for Rhyperior. Think out of the box!~

    Next, the ultimate scout of the team

    [​IMG] upload_2013-10-6_14-6-3.png

    Rouge (Rotom-H) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 SDef / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Overheat
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Trick
    Rotom-H was definitely the last pokemon that I had fit onto the team. In honesty, it initially was not intended to defeat any specific counters of Hitmonlee. During the teambuilding process, I felt that the other four pokemon were already sufficient to defeat Hitmonlee's checks and counters, and that I had an extra slot left and didn't know what to do with it. I decided that since I was too lazy to switch leads in the Team Preview, I just slapped on a synergically-appropriate scouter, Rotom-H. Not only has it surpassed my expectations, by allowing me to actually check and counter most of the threats that woul plague the team otherwise, it also allows me to be super lazy when I'm doing grind laddering and get tired.

    I use Choice Specs Rotom-H instead of Choice Scarf, for two main reasons. One, was obviously that I already have a Scarfed Heracross, and thus not require another Scarfer on this. However, the next reason is a lot more interesting. Trick was an obvious option on Rotom, since crippling stuff like Snorlax and Umbreon and Porygon2 are very, very helpful towards the team's win condition in Empoleon. The fact is that Tricking a Choice Specs on an opponent leads to better results than Tricking a Choice Scarf. With a Choice Scarf, everything gets greater Speed, which isn't really such a bad side effect. However, if I Trick a Choice Specs onto a Support pokemon, or even a physical attacker, I stand to gain much more, as the opponent's Speed isn't boosted(bad for me), yet is locked into one move with a totally useless item in their perspective. Choice Scarf can benefit your opponent, but Choice Specs cripples two-thirds of the pokemon types(Physical Attackers and Supports)

    Rotom-H is also great for halting Crocune(contrary to popular belief) with Trick, especially when you have it locked into Rest/Sleep Talk/Calm Mind, and then it cannot hurt my team anymore.

    Hidden Power Ice is very useful for killing Gligar. Killing Gligar is priority numero uno if you want to sweep with Hitmonlee. Normally, players would not expect a Hidden Power Ice and Ice Punch on Rhyperior, therefore letting down their guard and allowing me to OHKO Gligar. It also comes in useful for killing Flygon, which can bring a match from 6-6 down to 6-5.

    On a side note, Volt Switch is very useful when dealing with Slowbro and occasionally Blastoise. If you predict that the opponent can give you a free switch into Rotom-H, for example if Slowbro uses Slack Off or Blastoise using Toxic/Rapid Spin, you can Volt Switch to scare them out, and also gain much-appreciated momentum in the process.

    A good situation to note is when you are Tricking, the opponent's Flygon switches in, expecting a Choice Scarf from you. Unfortunately, he receives a Choice Specs, and you a Choice Scarf. From there, OHKO with Hidden Power Ice(since he is slower). One of his winconditions is now dead.

    Some more useful information when you are using the team is the power of Overheat. It OHKOs Nidoking, and OHKOs uninvested Nidoqueen and Cofagrigus, two very giant problems. However, sometimes Nidoqueen with bulk and Cofagrigus will survive at about 1% - 5%, so be wary of that.

    Rotom-H is also the team's best counter to Yanmega and Amoonguss, two of the giant threats which I discovered along my use of this team.



    Now begins the wrecking balls of the team.

    Firstly, introducing: Metal Sonic

    [​IMG]

    Metal Sonic (Empoleon) (M) @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Agility
    - Substitute
    - Surf
    - Grass Knot​

    The Pokemon named after me. It's blue, it's metallic, it's fast, and it decimates teams. One turn to setup, the rest to sweep.

    This is the powerful SubAgili Empoleon set from DPP UU. I might say that I was one of the first to use this beast after BW2 came out, but back then I hadn't joined Smogon. Use Agility when your opponent is faster than you or when you are sure that he is not switching out; or use Substitute when you are sure to force a switchor to block a status move. The rule is that if your opponent is staying in and outspeeds you, yet cannot kill, for example Outrage Kingdra, unboosted Scrafty, Amoonguss, you use Agility. If you are sure to force a switch, for example Choice-locked Mienshao, Rhyperior, you use Substitute. Not doing so is a misplay, which might cost the game(I learnt this the hard way).

    I'm using Grass Knot instead of Ice Beam, in order to defeat Slowbro better. It is also able to kill Blastoise, Suicune and Swampert with ease, but the drawback is that I am susceptible to Grass-types in general, including Shaymin, Roserade, and Amoonguss. I had tried using Ice Beam over Grass Knot for a brief stint last year, and the team did not do as well compared to using Grass Knot, so I'm sticking with this.

    After the Petaya Berry + Torrent combo is triggered, Empoleon 2HKOs all special walls, including Snorlax, Porygon2, Bronzong and Umbreon, and 2 - 3HKOs bulky Grass-types like Shaymin and Amoonguss. Crits help too. Unfortunately, you won't get the chance to land two hits on stuff like Snorlax if your Substitute is not up, so it is recommended to deal some prior damage first in order to sweep. In these cases, the Trick from Rotom-H comes in really handy, as it can lock the opponents into resistant moves(Umbreon into Foul Play, Snorlax into Body Slam), and let Empoleon set up Substitutes with ease. Occasionally, if the opponent's special wall cannot threaten you out, for example Bronzong, you can inflict prior damage with Surf and Agility, before killing it; Substitute may not be necessary thanks to him bringing you to 25% range for you.

    Also take note that even though Empoleon has Agilitied once, Scarfers that are above the JollyCross mark can still outspeed it. AdamantCross cannot outspeed, but if you really really want to secure a win and you spot a threat still hiding in team preview, Agilitying again will guarantee you it.



    Next, the fan favourite: Sonic
    [​IMG]
    Sonic (Heracross) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk​

    My favourite video game series. It's blue, it's fast, and it hits hard from the get-go. Sometimes, Heracross can finish a game thanks to its Scarf, and its great STAB moves. It's meant to lure in Hitmonlee's counters such as Slowbro and Sableye and to destroy them, so that Hitmonlee can sweep later on.

    This is ScarfCross, with a few minor and major differences. I'll talk about the minor differences first. First, is the fact that I'm running Guts ScarfCross. Guts is a great ability, as it gives me insurance against Toxic Spikes which render Hitmonlee unusable. It is also the best Sableye counter in my opinion, being able to eat Will-O-Wisps for dinner and OHKOing with Megahorn. It is also my team's Scald eater, especially from weak but burn-friendly Scalders like Suicune and Blastoise, dealing only 30% but giving me a chance to OHKO or badly cripple the opponent. Next is the fact that I'm running Adamant. Honestly, I prefer the power more than the speed, firstly because my team's sweepers are really very fast already, and Heracross needs the most power in order to muscle past Slowbro and Suicune. Yes, I can use Heracross to beat Crocune in a 1v1.

    Now, you may notice two unusual moves on Heracross. Earthquake is there to lure and kill Poison-types that give Hitmonlee problems, especially Nidoking and Queen. It is also very useful against SubCM Raikou(you'll never have problems with it ever again) and Arcanine, which is a threat. Next is Sleep Talk, which was originally Night Slash. Sleep Talk was to let the team orientate better with the increase of Amoonguss Spores and Roserade Sleep Powders that give the team problems, and even better it activates Guts! I don't know if I'm just lucky or that Heracross likes me, because more often than not Sleep Talk chooses the correct move most of the time.

    Take note that this Heracross variant is weak to Zapdos, and must be played around. Fortunately, Guts-boosted attacks can 2HKO Zapdos, with uninvested Zappies taking 70% while max bulk Zappies take 50%.

    Finally, the ultimate star of the team: Knuckles
    [​IMG]
    Knuckles (Hitmonlee) (M) @ Liechi Berry
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Endure
    - Reversal
    - Rock Slide
    - Mach Punch​

    Hell yeah! This thing was a beast back in the day, I could 6-0 everyone with no issue. But now that I've made this thing public, more people are building more checks and counters into the team and it makes it a little tougher to pull that off. Nonetheless, sometimes on the ladder, I can still pull it off if they lack a counter to this.

    This set: the original. Although the uploaded analysis had Stone Edge and Earthquake, that was only because the QC guys told me to do it. Rock Slide > Stone Edge because missing sucks. Nothing is worse than have the win pulled under your feet just because that Chandelure dodged your stupid Stone Edge. However, take note that Rock Slide is unable to OHKO Crobat(it lives with 3 - 7%), and thus requires Stealth Rock to OHKO. Also note that a Super Effective Rock Slide deals as much damage as a resisted Reversal, so if you're up against a Victini, use Reversal instead. But it wouldn't OHKO without Rocks either.

    Mach Punch is great; it helps secure wins against Sucker Punchers and Priority users. These include Honchkrow and Bisharp, and rare but still-being-used stuff like Swellow. Azumarill is a bit of an issue, as Mach Punch only deals 30%, which means Azumarill can defeat Hitmonlee one-on-one. Or does it? Let me tell you guys a secret: Azumarill never OHKOs with Aqua Jet. What does this mean?

    This means that if there are no rocks on your field, and Hitmonlee is at 100% health, vs Azumarill, Aqua Jet brings you down to 3%, and you click Reversal to win.

    Also take note of some exceptional pokemon that Hitmonlee cannot OHKO, yet are neutral resists. These three pokemon are 252/252+ Suicune, Tangrowth and Alomomola. They live Reversal at about 1 - 10%. Use Stealth Rocks to ensure a kill.



    Okay so with all the Pokemon out of the way, I'm going to list the threats of the team, ranging from the biggest threat and downwards, in different sections on Offensive / Defensive threats
    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: High
    Offensive Threat
    Yanmega is one of the few offensive threats that can run down my team, with Air Slash OHKOing Heracross and Hitmonlee, and with Giga Drain OHKOing Rhyperior. It can 2HKO Empoleon and Mismagius, and can pick off weakened Rotom-H. The best check to it will be Rotom-H, and then Mismagius, shooting it down with a Thunderbolt. Play very carefully around this thing.

    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: High
    Defensive Threat
    This thing is a monster. Its bulk is really big, and Regenerator means that I cannot use prior damage to pick it off with Reversal. It resists both Hitmonlee and Empoleon, and is in general a giant stumbling block for the team. Heracross is great for taking Spores, and a Sleep-Talked Megahorn deals 70 - 90% on it depending on its spread. Rotom-H also comes in very handy here with an Overheat straight off the bat. Rhyperior also outspeeds, so Earthquake can deal about 50% to it, and can finish it off.

    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Variable
    Defensive Threat
    This guy deserves a whole mention all to himself. It will be on my post below for aesthetic purposes.


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium-High
    Defensive Threat
    Back in the day, Golurk was extremely scary. It hard walls Hitmonlee. Top-tier players used Golurk and wrecked holes in my team. However, recently I've seen more Golurk users on the ladder, and they were very unimpressive. They sack it early. They stay in on Empoleon. This would have been a High-level threat, if not for the generally underwhelming usage that makes it not much as a threat as it should be. Empoleon takes it down. So does Mismagius(it's a 2HKO though, watch out!). Rotom-H can come in handy and OHKO uninvested Golurk with Overheat, or deal at least 60% to specially defensive variants. And Heracross does as much damage with Megahorn on it as on Zapdos -- Guts Boosted Megahorns 2HKO.


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium-High
    Offensive
    Threat
    Cofagrigus is another popular Ghost who can stop a Hitmonlee sweep. However, it is OHKOed by Rotom-H's Overheat, activated Empoleon's Surf, and 2HKOed with Shadow Ball from Mismagius. Defensive Cofagrigus who is Will-O-Wisp happy gives free setup to Heracross. However, OTR Cofagrigus is a big problem, as I do not have a solid answer to a +2 onslaught. The optimal scenario is to switch into Rotom-H and kill it with Overheat, before it even gets the chance to mess with the Trick Room. If it uses Nasty Plot first, then Trick Room, then you can Trick it on the room that it uses Trick Room, so he will be locked into it and have to switch out. However, if the unfortunate event happens that it sets up the Nasty Room already, you can either get Empoleon to stall him out using the Substitutes and then OHKOing with boosted Surf, or in the worst case scenario play some switching shenanigans with Mismagius and Empoleon.


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium
    Offensive Threat
    Always a Pokemon you have to prepare for in UU. If given its way, it can OHKO everything except Heracross. But I will not give it its way. Mach Punch from Hitmonlee annihilates the Life Orb Sharpedos. Waterfall fails to OHKO Heracross and thus can revenge with Close Combat. If your opponent uses some silly Focus Sash Sharpedo, Rhyperior lives Waterfall at 10% and can throw a Rock Blast.


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium
    Defensive Threat
    The classic Heracross wall. It happens to wall Hitmonlee too, which is really annoying. Fortunately, all my other Pokemon are built to deal with it. Hidden Power Ice is placed on Rotom-H and Ice Punch on Rhyperior for this reason. Mismagius can SubPlot on it, while Empoleon can live 2 or 3 Earthquakes to set up Agility. However, take note that Gligar must be eliminated at all costs if seen in the Team Preview. If you are left in a 3-1 situation, with Hitmonlee, Rhyperior and Heracross against a Gligar with Toxic, you automatically lose(save for Ice Punch hax)


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium
    Offensive Threat
    Extremespeed halts Hitmonlee in its tracks, 100%. You can hope for Rock Slide flinch or Reversal Critical Hit on its other counters, but Arcanine is a fullstop. It outspeeds unboosted Empoleon and OHKOs with Close Combat. Rhyperior is your best bet here. Heracross's Earthquake and Mismagius makes good checks as well.


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium (Annoyance)
    Defensive Threat
    Shaymin is a counter to Empoleon. Its normal LO set is no problem; Heracross Megahorn will take care of it. However, you need to beware of its SubSeed set, its extremely annoying to the heavens and Rhyperior cannot use Rock Blast for Substitute-breaking for obvious reasons. Rotom-H can potentially spam Hidden Power Ice, or Mismagius take it on with its own Subtitute shenanigans. Heracross can still be used to break Substitutes when necessary with Megahorn, but the Leech Seed spam is definitely irritating.

    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium
    Offensive Threat
    Nothing can switch in safely except for Empoleon. However, it cannot switch in safely either due to my high-powered moves. Aqua Jet 3HKOs Heracross, 2HKOs Rhyperior, and cannot kill Empoleon unless it uses Superpower. Watch out though, its bulk is remarkably big, and all of these checks can only 2HKO it back. Fortunately, some Azumarills are funny and stay in on Empoleon's Grass Knot twice, in order to die.


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium-Low
    Defensive Threat
    This thing stops Hitmonlee. Fortunately, I built the team around countering this guy, so it should be manageable. But make sure to kill it over the course of the game! Rhyperior picks off weakened Slowbro with Earthquakes dealing 40%-50%


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium-Low
    Offensive Threat
    Crocune. If he thinks spamming Calm Mind and Rests are funny, show him that Megahorn spam is even funnier. Megahorn usually 2HKOs or 3HKOs. Before it sets up, you can defuse this bomb by using Rotom-H to Trick it on a Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind. Volt Switch on unboosted Crocune deals 80%, and 60% to a +1(I memorise these things). Grass Knot spam using Empoleon is also helpful, more often than not a Critical Hit will occur over the course of the spamfest, and he dies. Finally, Mismagius's Nasty Plot Thunderbolt also does the trick.


    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Medium-Low
    Defensive Threat
    Another counter to Hitmonlee. Setup bait for Empoleon. Do take note that Surf deals more damage than Grass Knot in this case, so always use Surf to kill it! Earthquake from Heracross can do some work, and the aforementioned Electric attacks also OHKO it.



    All right! That's about the end of it! My advice when laddering is to always have a clear mind when doing so. As long as you have a great laddering team, which can be gotten from the RMT Archives or from great players, and with practice, laddering should be possible. When you have a clear mind, and understand what is going on in the game, you choke less, and not lose important matches which count harshly towards your score.

    Finally, many people say that Endure Reversal Hitmonlee is a cheap tactic and that anybody can do it. I think quite the opposite however, as it is just as viable a win condition as any other, and you still need to defeat its checks and counters before winning the game. You know the team is good enough to repeatedly make it to the #1 spot on the ladder, so if you lose you basically only can blame yourself(Like I do!) Have fun!


    Importable:

    Rouge (Rotom-H) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 SDef / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Overheat
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Trick

    Metal Sonic (Empoleon) (M) @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Agility
    - Substitute
    - Surf
    - Grass Knot

    Sonic (Heracross) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk

    Nega-Wisp (Mismagius) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt

    Vector (Rhyperior) (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    EVs: 180 HP / 128 Atk / 192 Def / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast
    - Ice Punch
    - Stealth Rock

    Knuckles (Hitmonlee) (M) @ Liechi Berry
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Endure
    - Reversal
    - Rock Slide
    - Mach Punch

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  2. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,678
    [​IMG]
    Threat Level: Variable
    Defensive Threat
    ~~*Hail*~~

    Hail. Hitmonlee's bane. The residual damage prevents Hitmonlee from executing a sweep at 1 HP.

    Unbanned in January 2013, Hail has been integrated as a entirely different playstyle in the UU metagame. This team was built in July 2012, where Hail was never a problem.

    Despite that in theory, hail should be able to steamroll the team(since it wasn't prepared for hail), somehow the team is able to win about 80% of the games it plays. Is this because of the opponents' poor play? My good play? Or the team's innate ability to deal with all the ever-changing threats on a consistent basis?



    There is no doubt that Hail gives the team a disadvantage. Neutralising one of the team's win conditions without lifting a finger is on its own a problem. However, I have fought Hail teams before, and I have prevailed. (Not all of them though, naughty little pif!)

    And I will share my advice on how to defeat them generally.

    Firstly, you will want to play with Hitmonlee as recklessly as possible. Endure+Reversal is not going to work; you'd rather lose him in this situation than someone like Rhyperior or Heracross. Rock Slide and Mach Punch can put a lot of pressure on the opponent, since they are both Super Effective against Ice. Hitmonlee can scare out Abomasnows with ease, while Mach Punch can snipe those Sharpedos that try to be cheeky. Walreins get buttsmashed, and in general Hitmonlee, although dead weight, can still be made the most out of it.

    Furthermore, sometimes the opponent's don't hit very hard. Endure is useless in Hail, but Reversal isn't. I've seen many a situation where Blizzard reduced Hitmonlee to 10% health, thanks to Hitmonlee's giant Special Defense. You can then proceed to kill two of the opponent's Pokemon with Reversal. Pretty nifty, even with that disadvantage.


    Next up, Rotom-H suddenly fills up the void that Hitmonlee once was. Overheat practically 2HKOs everything on a Hail team, except for dummy stuff like Rhyperior, which my own Rhyperior or Empoleon can beat. Spamming Specs Overheat and Volt Switch puts a lot of pressure on the opponent, and once you wreck holes in his team, you can proceed to the next new win-condition.

    Sonic. Sonic the Heracross. Close Combat spamming everything, will cause trouble for a Hail team. In general, Hail teams use Qwilfish for their Physical wall. But I am prepared for this: Rotom-H, Rhyperior, Mismagius and Empoleon makes short work of it. Not to mention that Earthquake 2HKOs.



    On occasion, Hail teams will try to setup Toxic Spikes in order to increase the residual Damage on me. This would be very dangerous under normal circumstances, but in Hail I am ready to sack Hitmonlee anyway. Guts Scarfcross is my insurance against Toxic Spikes: Hitmonlee becomes useless but Heracross becomes a wrecking train.

    Some of the examples of counters that Heracross can beat with a Guts boost are: Zapdos(2HKOs), Nidoqueen(2HKOs even with Close Combat, easy OHKO with EQ), Qwilfish(2HKO with EQ), Arcanine, Amoonguss, and Slowbro(OHKO with Megahorn).


    Effectively, in Hail, Rotom-H and Heracross will be your main destroyers, wrecking holes in the opponent's team; 2HKOing or OHKOing most of them on a standard Hail team. Hitmonlee is not useless, its Rock Slide and Mach Punch are very threatening to Ice-types, and sometimes the opponent can accidentally activate Reversal range for you(it happens 1 in 3 battles on average). Empoleon will have trouble vs Abomasnow, but other than that it can perform normally as the main spammer/sweeper of the team.


    So that is how this team must adapt to defeat the occasional Hail teams on the ladder. I hope this guide is comprehensive enough, and you can steal and ladder with this team to your heart's content! XY is coming out soon, and my exams start tomorrow, so I wish you all to have fun and I hope that all of you have enjoyed this team!







    I would like to thank:

    Clarion Macapagal for being my best friend and fellow UU player, helping test teams back in the day.

    D4RR3N, for being a great friend and Smogon user, helping each other along our journey.

    PK Gaming, for first integrating and helping me to get involved in Smogon.



    The UU community, kokoloko, RT., Psych071c, Pokemazter, and more, for making the UU metagame an enjoyable one.

    You, dear reader, for being a wonderful audience

    and lastly WhiteQueen for being white :p (and the first cool dude I met on Smogon!)



    Once again, thank you all and I hope you have enjoyed the team~~
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
    finally likes this.
  3. col49

    col49 unpolished
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    Just thought I'd point out that your Rhyperior spread is inefficient; a spread of 180 HP / 128 Atk / 192 Def / 8 Spe with an Adamant nature yields the same HP, Def, and Spe stats as your current spread, but with an additional 3 Attack. I'd like to edit in a rate in the future, though I can't say for certain I'll be able to nail down something haha. In the case that I don't, it is a pretty cool team, and 'grats on the peak n_n
  4. Not Jacky

    Not Jacky

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    4 SDef EVs on Rotom-H and on Heracross instead of Def/HP (respectively) prevents Download users from gaining a special attack boost.

    Other than that, this team is very well-built. The only improvement I could think of to beat troublesome threats (in particular Amoonguss) was using Stone Edge on Hitmonlee, but I'm sure you've already weighed the pros and cons of its less-than-stellar accuracy.
  5. Moose V

    Moose V

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    Your acre means nothing until you've gotten your deviation below 99. Your account also wasn't even registered yet.


    Now that I got that off my chest, I have a couple suggestions:

    1) Stone Edge>Earthquake on heracross. Nidoqueen has no recovery, meh defenses in the first place, pretty low usage and generally gets worn down pretty easily. Crobat, on the other has a great recovery move in roost, relatively high usage (especially now) and can wall heraross even if it's switching in with like 55% with rocks up. The other pokes you mentioned that EQ hits all get hit pretty much just as hard by close combat and you aren't locked into a move that gives flying types a free switch in.

    2) Hidden Power Fighting > Thunderbolt on Mismagius. Umbreon and Snorlax are Mis's most common switch-ins and you're gonna want to hit them hard (+ Registeel). Thunderbolt is really only useful for certain bulky waters which probably aren't going to come in on Mis anyway.

    3) There's pretty much no merit in putting defense EVs into a Rhyperior that doesn't have max HP:
    252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 180 HP / 68 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 216-256 (51.92 - 61.53%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 229-270 (52.88 - 62.35%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
    You should put the defense EVs into HP (or SpD) so you can take special hits a little better with almost no loss of defensive bulk

    4) HP Grass >>> HP Ice on Rotom. This set is just asking to get walled by Rhyperior as it. Gligar is not a a switch-in to Rotom and Flygon already takes a massive 63% from Overheat.

    5) Looking back at Rhyperior,
    252 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 164-196 (49.1 - 58.68%)
    So pretty much Gligar can just roost in your face all day until it's at 75%. If anything Ice punch gives gligar free health. I'd replace it with dragon tail.

    6) Anything with 4 EVs left over should have them put into SpD for download users.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  6. Lol1z

    Lol1z

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    Solid team dude. I'm first going to have to agree with Moose about Stone Edge over earthquake on Heracross. I realize you've obviously played more game with the team than I have, and maybe you've tested both moves out and decided EQ works better, but IMO I always prefer the coverage that Stone Edge gives you.

    Also, I'm not sure what it is about getting douchy alts into the top 10, but it is just SO much fun and I do that all the time also ahaha
  7. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Hey mate! That's actually a really good insight! I found that my Defense was the best number, but didn't think out of the box to actually have the same numbers yet better EVs! I'll add that in immediately!

    Hey, putting 4 SDef EVs on Heracross doesn't work, as his Special Defense is naturally than his Defense, so its fine. As for Rotom, HP Ice takes away EVs from the Defense Stat, so it is added back to counteract the drop. This way, Porygon2 will get random results, and will be unable to guess if I am using HP Ice or not!(Well, not anymore since I've revealed the team to everyone...)

    Thanks for your feedback!


    Lol, that was why that ACRE thing was in thumbnails/small picture, because it wasn't recognised. It's interesting to see though, and I think it breaks a record or something. Anyway, the #1 rank is the real deal and it's in full image!


    1) Crobat isn't a threat; I don't need to care.

    2)Thunderbolt is for killing Qwilfish, Blastoise, Suicune and Slowbro. Snorlax and Umbreon isn't going to scare out my team, and I can scare it away with Heracross anyways or with Trick from Rotom.

    3)Yeah I fixed the EVs thanks to help from col49. Thanks for the feedback though!

    4) Rhyperior gets 2HKO'd by Specs Overheat lol. Not to mention that it isn't a threat on my team so I don't need to care?

    5)May you kindly explain the benefits of Dragon Tail? It has weak damage output and chances to Miss, not to mention that it cannot break through Substitute users.


    Hey bro! Thanks for your feedback! Honestly you could use Stone Edge if you want, but I've tested it and it really performs worse than Earthquake.

    Firstly, Raikou is kept in check very well by Heracross.

    252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 265-313 (82.29 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    So if I don't have Earthquake things can get messy.

    Next, was that Heracross was meant to be a lure and kill Hitmonlee's counters. Slowbro, Sableye, and more relevantly Qwilfish. Earthquake 2HKOs with prior damage. Ground moves are to kill the Poison-types that block Hitmonlee, even though they are rare in UU.

    Lastly, Stone Miss sux lol it is a horrible experience

    So those are my reasoning for choosing Earthquake instead of Stone Edge. Hitmonlee already has a Rock move, and I already have a Rhyperior, so using another Rock move would be redundant (for the team). It is based on the team's needs which is why I use Earthquake ^_^

    Earthquake on a neutral opponent deals the same Base Power as Stone Edge, but without 20% miss rate that costs the game. If I want a reliable way to clean up the opponent, yet not want the -1 drops by Close Combat, I go to Earthquake.



    Also hell yeah douchy alts in the top 10. I'll ladder with you sometime after my exams(sadly XY will be released by then), maybe you can use my team and I use yours? I'll call you up when the time is right ;)





    Hey Kingler Crocune is a medium-low threat :)

    I gave you the win cause you needed points lol.

    Also Not Jacky I realise that your avatar is Amy! I used to play GC like 2 years ago but quit when Dio got released like ew
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  8. Moose V

    Moose V

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    Woah woah woah, don't throw away good advice, allow me to justify some of the above suggestions:

    1st, 252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-H Overheat vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 168-198 (38.79 - 45.72%) Idk where you got that Overheat 2 Hits Rhyperior as its more like a 4 or 5HKO factoring in the SpA drops. HP grass is an absolute must on Rotom, Overheat already OHKOs Gligar after rocks and flygon takes an absolute shit ton from overheat thus HP ice doesn't help.

    2nd, It's incredibly unlikely that an opponent will get the SpA boost and go "he must be running HP ice then!". It's infinitely better to just ensure that they don't get the boost in the first place so Not Jacky gave you good advice.

    3rd, None of those pokes you mentioned (Mismagius comment) are switch-ins to Mismagius plus shadow ball already hits Slowbro harder anyway. Shadow ball and Thunderbolt are both 2 hits on qwil anyway so it doens't help there either. HP fighting has perfect coverage w/ shadow ball and will have more use a majority of the time.

    4th, Ice punch doesn't do anything for Rhyp so I'm trying to find a move for you for the last slot. Dragon tail is great for predicting an opponent's switch and is a a great quick fix getting non-subbing set up pokes out (like scrafty). If you don't like dragon tail, protect is great for scouting and megahorn is great for grass types that like to switch in as well as claydol.

    5th, Yes, perhaps Crobat isn't too big a problem, but this heracross set also gets walled by other flying types that it shouldn't be walled by like zapdos and yanmega. Trust Lol1z and me on this.

    6th, with rocks up, raikou is almost always OHKO'd by heracross's close combat anyway. Also you have rhyperior, why are you concerned about raikou?


    Yes you did peak #1 but in case you're wondering, I've seen an acre of over 3000 on a few occasions
  9. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Hey Moose,

    I think you're overlooking the big picture here.

    The team's win condition is Hitmonlee. And Empoleon. All the other Pokemon are built to support it. Kill its threats. Rotom-H is using HP Ice to kill Gligar. I don't care Overheat OHKOs "after rocks". I don't care if Flygon "gets hit hard". Gligar must die at all costs, and I am willing to get walled by Rhyperiors (who is setup bait for Empoleon if Tricked a Specs) just to kill a Gligar to allow me to sweep.

    You can put the 4 EVs in Special Defense if you want. I'll change it.


    You can also use Stone Edge if you prefer it to Earthquake, but I've already outlined my reasons on why Earthquake is better for the team. Lol1z hasn't responded to my above explanation yet, so I would wait for his justification of Stone Edge before considering a change.


    Finally, that is the main reason I screenshotted my 2973 ACRE. It can't be seen on the ladder.
  10. Explorer

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    Many Raikou run HP Grass specifically to get around Rhyperior, and since this isn't a SpD set, that works against the Rhyperior user's favor.

    However, I'm tempted to say replace Rhyperior with Claydol to give your team a slight defensive presence and spin while still handling Gligar:

    [​IMG]
    Claydol @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
    Nature: Bold
    -Stealth Rock
    -Rapid Spin
    -Ice Beam
    -Earth Power/Magic Coat

    Heracross, Rotom-H, and Hitmonlee are all hurt by hazards more than you'd probably like, so I suggest replacing Rhyperior with physically defensive Claydol to get your hazards utility while still hitting key targets. Stealth Rock can make some kills easier for you, and is carried over from Rhyperior. Rapid Spin lets you get rid of Spikes that plague your sweepers (including TSpikes which ruin Hitmonlee). Ice Beam is the main attacking move for Gligar and Flygon (the reason Rhyperior ran Ice Punch). Finally, Earth Power can be used for STAB and coverage (Victini, Chandelure, Raikou, Rhyperior, etc.), or Magic Coat can be used to bounce back hazards as well as the Toxics that Claydol tends to attract.

    This is a great team overall, however, and good luck with your Gen VI adventures!
    Hollywood likes this.
  11. TalkTakesTime

    TalkTakesTime um excuse me
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    I'd just like to point out that Porygon2 won't get random results; Download grants an SAtk boost if Def >= SDef and only grants Atk if SDef > Def, so having equal defences means it will get a Special Attack boost every time. It's a very minor thing, especially since a majority of Porygon-2 and Porygon-Z's aren't using Download.

    Otherwise it's a pretty solid looking team. Good job on your ACRE glitch peak :p
  12. Celever

    Celever

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    Shhhhh he's not supposed to know it's a glitch.
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  13. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  14. PokeGyarados

    PokeGyarados

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    Lol I get the title

    Explorer - Generally Claydols prefer to run EQ over Earth Power (especially when running Ice Beam) in order to check SubCM Raikou, as Raikou can just CM, tank the Earth Power hits and sweep.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
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  15. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  16. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    why are you posting c+c work and even more ladder rankings here? It's a rmt not a dump for stuff like this

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