1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Spanish Armada

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Harsha, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Harsha

    Harsha
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,172
    [pimg]455[/pimg][pimg]251[/pimg][pimg]669[/pimg][​IMG][pimg]380[/pimg][pimg]205[/pimg][pimg]385[/pimg]​

    Introduction

    Spanish Armada, or Sand Balance 6 (of 17) as it's known to me from the filename, is one of my most solid BW2 teams. It's not particularly successful, as I've only achieved a modest record of 2-1 with it in SPL, and I've only hovered in the top 20 with a few alts because I don't ladder very often. However, I think it's a good example of BW2 balanced teams that can match up well against most teams and utilize a solid balance between offense and defense. These teams are probably the easiest to play with because they don't require much prediction and they allow you to make a few mistakes and still recover later on. Offense requires a lot of prediction against more defensive teams and stall is very punishing if you make a mistake — balance combines both elements and lets you play however you like to. You can be risky with your offensive Pokemon and play conservatively with your defensive Pokemon, meaning that your opponent will lose momentum at some point when he tries to outpredict you.

    The team was born from my wanting to build a team around Choice Band Terrakion. While it was one of the biggest threats in BW OU, it's nowhere near as common this generation. I wanted to complement it with a special attacker that fit a balanced playstyle so I chose Latias, as Life Orb Latias is a great pivot that packs plenty of power. It also gave me an ideal switch-in in case Terrakion was locked into the wrong move, allowing Thundurus-T or Landorus to set up. I added a Hippowdon because I don't like playing without some insurance to opposing weather, and Hippowdon is very useful in that it serves as a physical wall, a hazard setter, and a sandstorm inducer. Celebi came next because it acts an excellent pivot when I don't want Latias to lose health, and it can absorb status and blows from rain teams. I wanted Spikes on this team to support Terrakion and help it break through some of its standard switch-ins, and I generally like having a Rapid Spin user on my teams, so I went with Forretress. To complete the team I wanted a Choice Scarf user, and I also felt as though my team needed another Steel-type, so I went with Jirachi.

    The Team
    [pimg]455[/pimg]
    Hippowdon @ Leftovers *** TYRANO
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 16 SpD / 8 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Whirlwind
    - Slack Off

    I generally don't run teams without some type of weather control, and I picked Hippowdon for a balanced team because it provides a good physical wall and a Stealth Rock user. I need Stealth Rock because a lot of the damage I do comes from my walls forcing switches, as only Terrakion, Latias, and Jirachi can do any real damage (and even then, saying Jirachi does a lot of damage is definitely an overstatement). It also controls Volcarona, a rather large threat to my team. I could have used Stealth Rock on Celebi and saved room for Rock Slide on Hippowdon, but Celebi has a rather bad case of 4 Moveslot Syndrome as it is, and it doesn't actually force as many switches as Hippowdon unless I face a rain team.

    My EV spread gives me a jump point in Defense with 24 spare EVs after I invest in HP and Defense. I always use 8 Speed on Hippowdon in order to beat out people that use 4 Speed on their Hippowdon, meaning that I can Whirlwind them away every time without risking a Speed-tie. I can also Earthquake Hippowdon that are low on health before they use Slack Off, which can be useful in rare cases when I'm up against opposing sand balance teams. Slack Off is necessary, and its what makes Hippowdon such a good weather inducer, as it's the only decent recovery move that any weather inducer has bar Rest, which isn't exactly reliable. Earthquake is the filler move because it gets a STAB bonus and it hits Terrakion and Jirachi, two of the main threats that Hippowdon can take on.

    [pimg]251[/pimg]
    Celebi @ Leftovers *** ELMANZANO
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 SpD / 24 Spe
    Calm Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover
    - Baton Pass

    Celebi is definitely one of the best defensive Pokemon in the game for its favorable resistances and its stats. While it has a lot of weaknesses, the resistances to Water, Fighting, Grass, and Electric attacks makes it a great Pokemon to combat rain teams. Because Celebi does a majority of walling special threats, as Latias is mostly used for attacking late-game, it has a standard specially defensive spread with enough Speed to beat out opposing specially defensive Celebi (that aim to beat Timid Magnezone) and neutral-natured Politoed and Breloom. While outpacing Breloom, especially Poison Heal variants, may seem useless, I can actually break its Substitutes with Giga Drain, which makes it a lot less threatening.

    Baton Pass is the key to this set, and it helps alleviate the dual Pursuit weakness my team faces. It lets me escape from opposing Tyranitar and Scizor to get a favorable matchup, meaning that Celebi is free to wall or paralyze other threats throughout the rest of the game. I use Thunder Wave a lot when I get the chance to, but more and more people have started switching their Landorus into my Celebi which is quite frustrating, as they get a free U-turn and momentum while I gain nothing. For this reason, I only use Thunder Wave when I'm certain that it will accomplish something beneficial. It's not really meant for use against stall teams, but it can be a game-changer against sun offense if the opponent tries to bring in their Chlorophyll user.

    Recover and Giga Drain are pretty self-explanatory, as I needed a move that guaranteed Celebi stayed healthy in order to do its job well, and I needed an attacking move. Giga Drain has STAB and the added effect of healing a bit of HP, which is actually quite useful as it helps avoid the 2HKO from Landorus (and sometimes the 3HKO) and in turn beats Landorus down. While mono-Grass coverage is a pittance, Celebi will mainly be using Baton Pass to give me momentum, not attacking.

    [pimg]669[/pimg]
    Terrakion @ Choice Band *** HOT N COLD
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Quick Attack

    Choice Band Terrakion isn't really a set you see in this metagame infested with Focus Sash + Stealth Rock, SubSalac, and Choice Scarf sets, but it's just as effective at breaking holes as it was in old BW. The biggest problem Terrakion faces is that there are a host of faster threats in this metagame, compounded by the presence of teams that carry two Choice Scarf wielders and a base 110 Speed Pokemon, meaning that Terrakion won't be able to attack as often as it wants. However, I can appropriately deal with those Pokemon, so after removing them or finding a favorable matchup for Terrakion to come in on, I can start spamming Close Combat. I probably have used Close Combat at least 90% of the time, and Stone Edge takes up about 9.9% of the rest of the time. I've actually faced a (single) situation where I really needed Quick Attack, but it doesn't serve much of a purpose unless I let a Pokemon boost its Speed too much. Earthquake is pure filler, though I assume that it may come in handy against a Toxicroak at some point.

    I've considered trying a Life Orb Terrakion with Protect over Quick Attack and Hidden Power Ice over Earthquake in this slot, but I'm not really a big fan of it. Additionally, Landorus-T that switch in might happen to carry a Choice Scarf, ruining Hidden Power Ice's purpose altogether (as Gliscor is not nearly common enough to warrant the use of it). I have appropriate answers to all of the Pokemon that Hidden Power Ice hits so I haven't actually given it a shot. The power that Choice Band grants is ridiculous, though, and with sandstorm's enhancing Terrakion's Special Defense, it can tank and dole out hits without much trouble. Terrakion is my main source of offense against bulkier teams, though it can falter against faster teams because it won't always get a chance to fire off an attack. Additionally, the presence of Dugtrio on some sun and rain teams means that I have to be extremely careful with Terrakion. All-in-all, Terrakion is pretty much a high-risk, high-reward type of Pokemon, but the rewards it brings more than outweigh the risks of using it.

    [pimg]380[/pimg]
    Latias @ Life Orb *** M DRAGON
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Recover

    Life Orb Latias is one of the most popular sets in the metagame for a reason — while it may seem more intuitive to use Latios with a Life Orb due to its higher Special Attack, Latias is both powerful and bulky if equipped with a Life Orb. While I do have to watch for sand damage, entry hazard damage, and Life Orb damage adding up, Recover can take care of Latias, especially with all the switches it forces. I already have Celebi as my main rain team sponge, but Latias can help out with rain as a backup, and it acts as an answer to most sun teams. Once I sac a Pokemon to sleep, Latias can take on entire sun teams, as it can sponge a hit from the Chlorophyll user, wait until the opposing Choice Scarf user is KOed, and then simply spam Draco Meteor or Psyshock.

    While my team is already a bit weak to Ferrothorn, I chose not to use Hidden Power Fire because I wanted to at least Speed-tie with other Latios, Latias, and Gengar and I wanted to be able to hit weakened Tyranitar with enough power to 2HKO it so that I don't have to worry about being trapped by Pursuit. Psyshock is basically mandatory so that I can hit Keldeo, while Draco Meteor provides more STAB. The power that Draco Meteor grants is ridiculous, but I do have to watch out due to its drawback. I try not to use it if the opponent would be able to set up after I KO one of their Pokemon. The EV spread seems a little odd, but it prevents Choice Scarf Keldeo from 2HKOing Latias in sandstorm, which is always a boon if Celebi goes down early.

    [pimg]205[/pimg]
    Forretress @ Leftovers *** FAFUS
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Def
    Relaxed Nature
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Gyro Ball [0 Spe IVs]
    - Volt Switch

    Forretress is the first Steel-type on my team, and it's the more defensive of the two that I have. I decided to use it because I wanted Rapid Spin support, with most of my Pokemon being grounded. Ferrothorn has a relatively easy time setting up Spikes on this team so I wanted some added insurance against entry hazards to make sure I wasn't punished for my switches. Forretress was the ideal Pokemon here because it provides me with spin support, and it additionally gives me Spikes so that Terrakion can punch larger holes and sweep with more ease. I always run Volt Switch on Forretress for momentum, and I like it much better than any of the other options available (Pain Split and Toxic).

    The EV spread I run probably looks weird to all of you, but I stuck with it because 216 Defense EVs gives me a jump point and 40 Attack EVs guarantees a 2HKO on Latios and nearly guarantees a 2HKO on Latias after Stealth Rock and sand damage. While this doesn't come into play that often, Gyro Ball is a good move and discourages opposing Pokemon from trying to set up. The Relaxed nature and 0 Speed IVs ensure that I have the strongest Gyro Ball possible, and they also allow my Volt Switch to be as slow as possible, meaning that Forretress will usually tank a hit before using Volt Switch. With that, I can bring in the next Pokemon unharmed and gain momentum without having to risk a bad prediction.

    Forretress fits my team better than a defensive Starmie would because I already have two Pokemon that are weak to Pursuit, and I like being able to use Spikes. Additionally, I think having at least two Steel-types on balanced teams is necessary, as they can stand up to Dragon-types if Hippowdon or Celebi are too weak to take them on. The added insurance against these threats is worth more than a Scald burn in my opinion.

    [pimg]385[/pimg]
    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf *** THE MADCHINE
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Punch
    - Trick

    Jirachi rounds out the team with its versatility. While it's not extremely bulky or powerful, it provides a good balance between the two. I generally don't like using Choice Scarf Jirachi because it's not the strongest Choice Scarf wielder, but it does have a few niche roles it can play. For one, Jirachi possesses its Steel typing, meaning it can sponge Outrage or Draco Meteor (but not too often; it's not that bulky!). Additionally, it can cripple stall teams with Trick, meaning that some of my opponent's walls become dead weight. U-turn access is a plus because it gives me momentum and forms a VoltTurn duo with Forretress, while Jirachi's good coverage between just two leftover moves allows it to revenge kill a host of common threats.

    Iron Head is an obvious STAB move that can be a real help with flinches (especially combined with paralysis from Celebi). It is generally the move I'll use if I want to revenge kill a Pokemon that's not Landorus or a Dragon-type. Ice Punch is for the threats I just mentioned, though I don't really use it until later in the game when I'll need it to be safe and ensure a KO. I'll generally lead with Jirachi and U-turn out so that I can get entry hazards up. While I do end up revealing my set, I also get momentum right off the bat, which pretty much outweights revealing my team, especially given that nearly every BW2 game is decided on who can pick up momentum the fastest. Losing some surprise value is a small price to pay, and it can work well down the road!

    Conclusion

    I'd like to give a giant thank you to my teammates and friends who raided with me this season: JabbaTheGriffin, locopoke, Birkal, [K-12] The Madchine, Atoni, Dubulous, Elmanzano, FAFUS, Faint, GaryTheGengar, Gl4ss, Hot N Cold, Human, Jackal, Jirachi, Kidogo, kokoloko, Leftiez, M Dragon, mfhoundoom, Nails, TheFourthChaser, ToF, TyranoWins, and the largest contributor to the cause — that's right, you guessed it — MINGOT. We may not have gotten where we wanted to in regards to our title hopes (or anywhere near there, for that matter...), but I had a ton of fun playing and chatting with all of you throughout the season. I'm not actually retiring this team for what it's worth, as BW2 is pretty much a stable metagame now. I'll probably try out any of the suggestions you throw at me to make it better (given that I haven't already done so with another one of my sand balance teams!). The reasoning behind my posting this is that I don't think I'll be playing any serious matches until World Cup or some other tournament I get pressured into joining, and I've spread this team around so much that there's no real point in trying to keep it a secret. Thanks for reading, if you would like you can go ahead and give the team a shot.
  2. Harsha

    Harsha
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,172
    Export to Text

    [SCROLL=15]Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Whirlwind
    - Slack Off

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 SDef / 24 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover
    - Baton Pass

    Terrakion @ Choice Band
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Quick Attack

    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Recover

    Forretress (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Def
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Gyro Ball
    - Volt Switch

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Punch
    - Trick[/SCROLL]

    How do I deal with...

    Sand Offense [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Celebi is key here, as I need it to wall Keldeo and Landorus (Rock Polish variants, as U-turn variants are a bit trickier to play around). Additionally, it works as a good Latios sponge, though I have Jirachi to take that out if need be. I generally try and get Spikes up as quickly as possible, as these are the kinds of teams that don't have a spinner. I play defensively first, but once the opponent starts to get worn down by entry hazard damage, he's bound to do something risky. If I can anticipate this, I can take advantage of it through a double switch, though whether or not I rely on risky moves will depend on how the opponent has played throughout the match and what his win conditions against my team are. Generally they'll aim for a Rock Polish Landorus sweep, as Keldeo has too many stops on my team, and Tyranitar and Scizor can attempt to Pursuit trap some of my Pokemon. However, Baton Pass keeps Celebi alive, and Latias is saved for later on in the game once the two Pokemon are weakened. I'll aim to finish off these games with either Latias or Jirachi.

    Sun Offense [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    My win condition against sun offense teams is Latias, so I'll generally just aim to win the weather war in the first half of the game and eventually sac either Forretress or Hippowdon to sleep (after I can get a few layers of entry hazards up). Once that's done, I just need to prevent Venusaur, or whatever other Chlorophyll user the opponent has, from getting a Growth up, and then I can eventually bring in Latias to hit the opponent hard with whatever coverage move will do the most damage. I'll generally use Psyshock because it has STAB and it hits every common Pokemon on sun teams hard, but if need be I'll use Draco Meteor. I do risk sacrificing a bit of momentum, but sometimes that's necessary in order to KO a threat. If the opponent doesn't have a Chlorophyll user, then I can also use Terrakion as my win condition, but considering the ubiquity of Dugtrio on sun teams, I'll generally just hit hard with Close Combat or Stone Edge early on instead of preserving Terrakion. I do have to be careful with Xatu, so I won't go for the Stealth Rock or Spikes layers until I'm sure Xatu won't come out (or it gets KOed).

    Rain Offense [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Rain offense without a spinner isn't too difficult to face, as I can generally find openings to get a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock down. After a couple switches into Stealth Rock, the opponent will be a bit reckless with Tornadus, so I always have to watch there. These teams require a lot more prediction than my team does, so I already have an upper hand matchup-wise even though it may not seem like it. Celebi and Latias are important to preserve so that they can wall Keldeo and Politoed. Toxicroak and Jirachi are generally dealt with by Hippowdon, though sometimes my opponent will sac one to let the other sweep. Garchomp is a bit problematic because I like to keep Hippowdon for Toxicroak and Jirachi, but I can deal with it through my own Jirachi, Forretress, or Latias. Terrakion also KOes 4 HP variants with ease, but using Terrakion to beat Garchomp reveals the Choice Band. If the opponent carries specially defensive Jirachi, they'll gain a bit of recovery, but I'll be able to preserve Hippowdon for longer because it can't do any real damage to my weather inducer. If the opponent carries a spinner, it'll generally be a frail Starmie, so I can remove it early on and get my entry hazards down later on. Latias is basically my win condition here because Terrakion is too slow, but I can also find opportunities to sweep with Jirachi if Keldeo gets weakened.

    Rain Stall [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Rain stall is not that hard of a playstyle to face because Terrakion and Latias are effective at beating most common rain stall builds with just a little help from the rest of the team. I generally play against rain stall teams by using Jirachi to Trick a key component early on, as making Ferrothorn or Jirachi useless can be a big help. The opponent will usually put less importance on a Pokemon that carries a Choice Scarf, so with either Steel-type gone Latias can sweep much more easily. Winning the weather war is not that big of a deal, but I do like to make sure to keep Hippowdon alive so that Tentacruel doesn't get so much recovery per turn and so that opposing Jirachi are useless. Celebi isn't very important in this matchup, though it can paralyze opposing Latias and Jirachi, and Baton Pass can help me eliminate its common switch-ins. Ultimately, I can't really win the entry hazard war against a Tentacruel, so I'll aim to just break holes with Terrakion and clean up at the end with Latias.

    Sun Stall [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Sun stall is really annoying for this team because the most powerful Pokemon on my team, Terrakion, can be trapped by Dugtrio, and its main STAB attack does no damage to whichever Ghost-type the opponent settles on (Jellicent or Sableye). Additionally, Cresselia is a major pain because of its ridiculous bulk. The one thing I have to do is get my hazards up early and win the weather war — once that is done, playing against sun stall becomes much easier. All you need to do once you win the weather war is get rid of the opposing spinner, and eventually the opponent will only be left with Cresselia (whose Moonlight will only recover 25% in sand). Latias can't really do too much damage because of Heatran, while Terrakion fears Dugtrio too much to come out early on, so I generally start the match off with Jirachi and U-turn out to see what my opponent will do. Once I see their lead, I can play mind games between Baton Pass Celebi, Volt Switch Forretress, and U-turn Jirachi, and if I can get some layers of Spikes down, this is even more effective. Eventually I can Trick a key Pokemon, but I generally will only do that once I KO Dugtrio.

    Sand Balance [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    If the opponent uses Forretress, I'll start off the game by using Jirachi and then scouting with U-turn. If not, I'll stack as many entry hazards as I can early on. Once I do this, playing the game will be much easier, as all I need to do to clear up a Latias sweep is spam Close Combat with Terrakion. Celebi is useful in that it keeps opposing Rock Polish Landorus and Rotom-W at bay, but opposing Celebi are a bit annoying because my main way of dealing with them is through Jirachi's U-turn. Thankfully Celebi will get weakened by entry hazards to the point where Terrakion can generally 2HKO with Close Combat. I always have to be weary of opposing Stoutland's movesets, as if they carry Pursuit, they might be able to trap and KO my main win condition, Latias. For this reason I only bring Latias out when the coast is clear for a sweep — Celebi can deal with the special sponging, and it can repeatedly come in due to its access to Recover.
  3. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,593
    you handle offensive threats pretty well but defensive teams are tough to face. opposing forretress can spin on your hazard setters with ease and if it's paired with jellicent (or sableye), you're not spinning its spikes away anytime soon either. starmie spins just as easily and can come in whenever it wants without fear of being pursuited. i'd personally consider dropping hippo & jira for cb/scarftar & sr land-t; the former traps jelli/starmie and maintains a sand setter while the former maintains your sr user and terrakion counter. it also has stronger earthquakes than hippo so it can batter away at opposing forretress. if youre still worried about forre you can run jelli > latias to maintain a second water resist while also spinblocking but then it's 5/6ths the same pkmn as the great southern trendkill so idk. just some thoughts gl
  4. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,062
    celebi on this team just seems really redundant. latias covers rotom-w relatively well if you don't play terribly, and celebi and latias basically cover the same things due to their practically identical resistances. this team has a few prominent problems defensively speaking which i'm surprised haven't been manifested from your playtesting. for starters, opposing heatran just bone you. terrakion is a terrible check since lava plume is scald v2 or they can toxic (if spdef..) and protect spam. plus you're choiced, so.. yah. swords dancing scizor seems like a major pain in the ass as well since it sets up practically for free on most of your team and hazards + opposing dragons are going to wear down hippo eventually. mamoswine looks like it can bone you as well since nothing can switch in and gyro ball is only doing like 55% to it. replacing celebi with a speedier varient of rotom-w seems like the best option since it can deal with most of these threats and act as a pseudo-check to opposing rotom-w since you can switch into them without much fear. you could try keldeo as it's a much more solid scizor check, but i think rotom-w will suit you better. since you want to be able to switch into heatran, try a chesto-rest varient with will-o-wisp. also, use hp fire on latias n__n the rare ferrothorn + ghost looks like it 6-0's you, not to mention the fact that scizor can easily set up on most of your team..

    anyways gl
  5. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    442
    This quite a solid a team.But I feel you are quite weak to Bulky SD Roost Scizor. There's nothing on your team that can reliably stop it after an SD and is can get past methods of wearing down because of Roost.The best you can do is phaze it away via Hippowdon or Tricking Jirachi's Scarf.The first method can be overcome fairly easily by weakening it/killing it by hard hitting pokes like Garchomp or Terrakion since Hippo will be most likely your switch in to them.People are also most likely to switch out their Scizor in a Scizor vs Rachi match up scouting for Fire Punch/Trick as Scizor is such a good win condition vs this team.

    A simple solution is dropping of one of Celebi's moves ,probably BP or Twave for HP Fire.But if you don't feel like changing Celebi's set,a very good alternative is changing Trick for Fire Punch on Jirachi.Both works.

    One more weak point of this team is Defensive based teams like BKC mentioned,as with the help of a spinner and quite possibly a spin blocker ,your team will get worn down pretty quickly as your team doesn't have reliable methods for breaking through them.CB Terrakion can help I guess and I'm not sure of what change in your team can help here without disrupting it's synergy too much.However,I think changing Terrakion's set for LO Double Dance variant is decent trade.Terrakion after a SD with the help of LO can break through most defensive cores after a little weakening while maintaining the ability to hit hard right of the bat.

    Good Luck ^_^
  6. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    943
    cool team Harsha,

    I agree with the other raters that stalls sorta problematic but this is usually true for most balance teams i guess. i told u on irc about the mighty heatran being a nuisance, i wouldnt go as far as to say it bones you but it can really be annoying, especially with spikes. Id consider changin CB Terrakion [who will forever be associated with :|] into a SD Variant so you can set up on the specially defensive heatrans they have on stall teams and it seems like more of a win condition for the team to have; really nothing stops +2 terrak w/ spikes on stall lol. im not really sold on the lo latias and i think just cm roar could make use of spikes, check heatran and sun better and still handle keldeo. i definitely see the uses since it can kill hippowdons and skarmorys and shit trying to be cute and switching in but overall i think terrakions so potent that if you play right you can own any stall team. some more potential changes are fitting fpunch somewhere on Jirachi for the scizman, though Trick really seems crucial; and psong on Celebi somewhere, since it allows him to hard counter breloom cm rachi and cm reuniclus. np celebis another option to look at because it straight up 6-0s a lot of the bw2 stall builds with little effort but you probably have to look into changing some other members in the team if you go that route. good luck

    lol
  7. CTC

    CTC The Lord Shepherd shall guideth ye cattle
    is Smogon Frontier's Stadium Baronis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    Messages:
    373
    I'm on my phone so i'll give a quick rate for now. The team seems to cover most offensive threats well, but 2 look troublesome to face. First off uturn lando on sand teams with tar is a huge problem because the only 2 lando switchins are murdered by uturn or ttar. Secondly sd scizor can easily 6-0 the team without fear of anything revenging it, unless jirachi gets really lucky with the flinches. I think that celebi is a bit redundant alongside latias and could possibly be replaced with something like rotom wash to still be able to switch into lando and ramain a pivot mon, while being able to burn scizor.
  8. Harsha

    Harsha
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,172
    That seems like a good alternative because I mainly added Jirachi for another Latios sponge, and Tyranitar would take out the need for that, and getting rid of Jellicent and Starmie would be pretty useful. I'll try it out, thanks for the rate!

    I actually haven't had that many problems with opposing Heatran even though it looks like it would be a weakness, simply because it's not that hard to play around. Specially defensive variants almost always go for the Stealth Rock on the first turn so I can go to either Latias or Terrakion and grab momentum there, and I can try and keep the momentum so that it can't come in for free later on. Offensive Heatran is a bit more annoying, but with less bulk it gets worn down a lot more easily. I generally do have to sac something to deal with it though, but if it does go for the Stealth Rock early on then it's not as problematic. Swords Dance Scizor is a big threat for sure, I haven't actually seen one with this team (lol), but yeah I didn't really notice it. I'll definitely try the Rotom-W change since it seems like a quick fix for all of this. Thanks for the rate!

    I kinda overlooked Hidden Power Fire on Celebi, but that seems to be a pretty good fix to the problem (unless Scizor is in the rain of course). I don't really like Fire Punch Jirachi because it doesn't do very much damage to the Pokemon Fire Punch hits, so the Celebi change seems like the best idea. I'll try the Terrakion change too, thanks for the rate!

    I'll try the Swords Dance Terrakion since it can get more opportunities to sweep against more defensive builds. I like Life Orb Latias a lot because it can already OHKO some problematic Pokemon like Landorus and Keldeo, but I'll definitely give CM Roar a shot, especially because Roar + Spikes is always pretty useful. I don't really like Fire Punch on Jirachi since Trick helps so much with Ferrothorn, and Fire Punch in rain vs Ferrothorn is a joke. Perish Song is a cool idea, I never really thought about that but it would be useful against last Pokemon threats and some problematic Pokemon. If I don't go with Hidden Power Fire there I think I'll probably switch Thunder Wave to Perish Song. Thanks for the rate!

    U-turn Landorus + Tyranitar is really annoying (it kinda boned me in an SPL match but I was able to finally bring it down after Tyranitar got worn down), so I actually play all Landorus like they're U-turn variants, since a +2 Spe Landorus is actually not as threatening to this team as a U-turn Landorus because both Celebi and Latias can tank a hit and KO back. They'll generally U-turn when it looks like I have a bad matchup (with Forretress against Landorus, etc) because it looks like I'll go to Latias or Celebi, but I just use those opportunities to leave Forretress in and set up Spikes so that Tyranitar gets worn down to the point where Latias's Surf will 2HKO. It's not a perfect way of playing against the core, but it has worked for me. SD Scizor is annoying, and while I haven't really seen it with my team, it looks like probably the biggest nuisance. I'll definitely give Rotom-W a shot over Celebi since it seems to relieve those problems a bit, and having a safer answer to U-turn Landorus is always good. Thanks for the rate!
  9. Jirachee

    Jirachee Congratulations Canada for finishing the tunnel to China!
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,682
    horrible team

    Like others said, Celebi feels kinda redundant alongside Latias on this team. While it does provide extra insurance against Tyranitar+Keldeo, it doesn't actually provide anything that Latias doesn't already provide. Having a secondary Water resist is always cool and pretty much a need in the current metagame, but I feel like you could be using something else. I think that Jellicent would be an amazing Pokemon on this team over Celebi. Jellicent is an excellent Pokemon in the current metagame in my opinion because Spikes are so good, and your team already uses them, so you could really make use of Jellicent to stop Forretress and Starmie from spinning your hazards away. Your team doesn't have enough offensive pressure to stop spinners in my opinion so you can really use a Ghost. Jellicent isn't bad against Tyranitar+Keldeo/Whatever teams either, as with enough Speed investment you can outspeed Tyranitar and burn it with Will-O-Wisp. I STRONGLY advise that you use Male Jellicent as the female one is absolutely horrendous. While this change replaces an electric resist with an electric weakness, you have to know that Thundurus-T already owns your Celebi set anyway.

    Also I don't really understand the need for Earthquake on Terrakion. Your team doesn't really mind Toxicroak since you have pdef Hippowdon, and it already takes a ton from Close Combat anyway. Earthquake doesn't seem to hit anything else for good damage. I think that you could use X-Scissor over it, because it at least gives you something that hits Celebi harder than any of your other moves, and like Slowbro I guess...

    Here's the set you should use:
    Jellicent (open)

    [​IMG]
    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Water Absorb
    Calm
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Will-O-Wisp
    ~Recover
    ~Taunt


    Good luck n_n

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)