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Spidersonic: Destroyer of Walls.

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Spidersonic, Jun 25, 2007.

1. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
I'm about to start working on a little project, mostly for myself, dealing with what the minimum stat is to guarantee a definite OHKO or 2HKO on specific popular walls or just OU standards, and would like to hear all your opinions on it. This is assuming perfect IVs in all of the defender's stats.

Using Misty's damage calculation app (found for anyone wanting it here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21084), I'm going to find things like the minumum Sp.A stat required to OHKO a Rhyperior with Energy Ball in sandstorm, for example. This will assume that if it makes sense for the opponent to max their stats, they will. For things like Rhyperior, most users have other stats they'd rather max over Sp.D, so we'll assume that it simply is working off that 55 base, 31 IVs and sandstorm support, netting a total of 219 Sp.D. Let's assume there's no STAB or other multipliers besides the Super Effectiveness. Assume also that the Rhyperior has max HP (434). After plugging it into the calculator as so:

/dam <Sp.A stat> <219> <80> <434> * 2.67

219 as the Rhyperior's Sp.D in sandstorm, 80 as the Energy Ball's base stat, and 434 as the Rhyperior's max HP. The move would be multiplied by 4 because it's super effective twice, and factoring in Hard Rock, would be reduced to 2.67.

And practically playing a guess-and-check game to find the lowest Sp.A stat that would guarantee a minimum of at least 100.0% damage. In this example, the Sp.A stat that we're finding would be 620.

This also means that having half of that stat, 310, would render a guaranteed 2HKO, doing exactly 50% damage [Not counting in Leftovers, yet].

So, let's say a Timid Alakazam with 31 IVs in Sp.A wanted to know how many EVs it should have to 2HKO a Rhyperior with Energy Ball. Knowing that the desired stat to attain is 310, and knowing that it's Sp.A without any EVs is 306, it would be easy to realize that 16 EVs are needed to reach this stat.

Now then, I just started doing calculations such as these, and want to know if I'm doing them correctly, if I should continue or not, or if it'll help at all anyway. If you all believe this to be a worthy project, I'd like to ask for a list of walls and their respective attack that would be used against them (Such as Rhyperior and Energy Ball in this example)

This is, in a way, what many players ask for or what they look for in an Analysis of a poke. I figure instead of making everyone doing calculations and everything on their own, a list posted would be very useful and would save a lot of calculating.

I've decided to start off by listing all the walls that I'm going to do for now. So far I have (in no particular order):
~Rhyperior
~Blissey
~Skarmory
~Cresselia
~Claydol
~Dusknoir
~Foretress
~Snorlax
~Slowbro
~Suicune
~Milotic
~Swampert
~Hippowdon
~Gliscor
~Weezing
~Donphan
~Bronzong
~Regice
~Vaporeon
~Miltank
~Tangrowth

If this is redundant or a waste of time in any way, please let me know before I throw valuable time out of the window doing this. Also, on the other hand, if anyone is interested in helping me with this project, I'd love that a lot. Keep in mind that I'm still a noob... but at least I'm an aspiring noob. Let me know what you guys think.

Anyone wanting to contact me can add me on AIM (Double Edge 216), MSN (spidersonic@gmail.com), Yahoo (jptomici@yahoo.com), or can PM me or email me at spidersonic@gmail.com. Any support will be appreciated and welcomed.

(Edit: Elaborated on my example and added ways of contacting me.)
(Edit: Corrected my math after being alerted by Lemmiwinks MkII)
2. sanjay120

Joined:
Aug 5, 2006
Messages:
2,737
Excellent idea. You'd be surprised by what some things can survive.
3. iceyicey

Joined:
Jun 19, 2007
Messages:
334
It will be useful... for people like me who are lazy to get off their butt and do some maths xD
4. Turismo2029

Joined:
May 20, 2007
Messages:
219
Yeah, some kind of list like that would be nice.

Like how high Alakazam's special attack needs to be to OHKO a Blissey with max HP and sp.def, with Focus Blast, etc..

Would come in handy for EV point saving.
5. sanjay120

Joined:
Aug 5, 2006
Messages:
2,737
Impossible. Modest Zam at most 2HKOs Bliss.
6. bauer

Joined:
May 12, 2007
Messages:
203
Interesting, it'd be a big help to us battlers who are too lazy to make their own EV spreads
7. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
Let's find out. Modest 'Zam has 405 Sp.A.
Modest 'Zam with Choice Specs has 607.5 Sp.A.
According to my calculations...:

Damage on a Max HP, Max Sp.D, Calm Blissey: 24.23% - 28.57%
Damage on a Max HP, Max Def, Bold Blissey (standard): 32.07% - 37.82%
Damage on a neutral natured, no HP or Sp.D, EV/IV Blissey: 41.13% - 48.39%
Damage on a reducing nature, no HP or Sp.D EV/IV Blissey: 45.65% - 53.87%
Damage on a reducing nature, np HP or SP.D EV/IV Blissey while holding Choice Specs: 68.23% - 80.32%
Damage on a standard Blissey while holding Choice Specs: 53.22% - 62.75%

So... the most damage that an unboosted Alakazam can do in one hit to any Blissey is 45.65% - 53.87%, with no Choice Specs. With Choice Specs, Alakazam can do from 53.22% - 62.75%, which is a 2HKO, neglecting Leftovers recovery. So yeah, sanjay120, Modest Zam at most 2HKOs, even after all possible boosts and reducing of Blissey's stats.
8. BFC

Joined:
Mar 18, 2007
Messages:
149
I was thinking about doing this my self cause i think it would help me as a battler and making teams and EV spreads and if you would like any help on this just ask me i will be glad to help.
9. Callum

Joined:
Sep 30, 2006
Messages:
213
Don't forget that Grass Knot is more common than Energy Ball, and does more damage to Rhyperior. Alternative moves like Surf and Grass Knot should be taken into consideration. Nevertheless, it's a good idea, but it may become irrelevant quickly once the metagame has become more well established. Just for one example, Jolteon and Raikou's Hidden Power vs. a Dugtrio - although initially it killed, eventually Duggys began to run a few Sp. Def EVs, and after that it always fell short of the OHKO. Things like that could eventually make these 'magic stat numbers' irrelevant. But in the meantime, it'd be a good idea, I think.
10. sanjay120

Joined:
Aug 5, 2006
Messages:
2,737
Some common things:

Ice Beam/Shard/Punch to Salamence/Garchomp.
Surf/Energy Ball/Grass Rope/Brick Break/Pulse Bomb/Close Combat/Earthquake to Tyranitar/Rhyperior.

Be sure to take STAB into account.

EDIT: This could also be useful for finding out how many EVs you need to run to survive common threats.

Joined:
Jun 13, 2007
Messages:
1,369
Why would a Dugtrio use Special Defense EVs? It needs all the Speed and Attack it can get (unless there's a magic number for Dugtrio)
12. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
Oh yeah, there's gonna be a whole list of attacks for certain pokes, for example:
Rhyperior
Energy Ball: 710 Sp.A
Grass Knot: X Sp.A
Surf: Y: Sp. A
Ice Beam: Z Sp.A

Earthquake: A Sp.A
Close Combat: B Sp.A

Etc. With not exactly that many walls to be "breaking", most orthodox attacks will be listed.

As for the changing of the metagame, that's true. However, the list is always going to be open; not set in stone. Edits and additions, etc, can always be made to accommodate the metagame.
13. sanjay120

Joined:
Aug 5, 2006
Messages:
2,737
He just said there was a magic number.
14. Lord Alchemy

Joined:
Apr 2, 2007
Messages:
322
Interesting idea, will be helpful in general for those too lazy to do their own math or those that simply do it incorrectly. In the end, I don't see this being all that useful for people that build teams from scratch and play with their EVs, natures, and movesets to perfect their team; but it will be a good resource for low to mid entry competitive battlers and probably show a few people how well walls do their job by reliably surviving even super effective moves (such as the Zam/Blissey Focus Blast example above).

This can also grow out of hand as the metagame evolves and will become a giant task once people start messing around with things like Pseudo-Special tank Rhyperior. I already got my fairly good "normal" competitive team built, and now I'm exploring some crazy options like a Special Tank T-Tar (packs like 493 Special Defense with max Special D+Sandstream) which, if any weird things become popular, would need to be accounted for.

All I can say is good luck, and heres hoping the community hasn't missed anything with the damage equation or various abilities, would hate to see some of the math here slightly off.
15. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59

Thanks for the advice. I'm still not sure how helpful this will be to everyone, but I know that for myself at least it'll be a big help, especially because I'll be doing most of the calculations anyway in finding my own team.
16. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
Anyway, for the sake of anyone interested in helping me, I should prolly elaborate how I'll organize this.

I think the most effective way to store this information would be as such: One folder labeled "Wall Breaker". Within this folder, I'll have different .txt files for different pokes. For example, one .txt file named "Rhyperior", in which all calculations for attacks used to counter Rhyperior would be placed. Likewise, other .txt files such as "Cresselia" and "Blissey" will have the calculations placed there as well.
17. sarunibi

Joined:
Aug 4, 2006
Messages:
319
This is a good idea you have going. Another thing to consider though is if the opposing pokemon has one of those "type-reducing berries". Then you can find out how many ev's are needed to OHKO the pokemon even if they have the berry.

I wish you luck in your research. If I discover anything else, I'll let you know.

Grass Knot was already mentioned, but don't forget about Low Kick either.
18. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
True, and thanks for your support. Hold items such as berries, leftovers and stat-messing-around-with things will be what will make this project difficult.
I personally was thinking about Low Kick, too. With all the hype of Grass Knot, I figured Low Kick should be able to reign as well. However, The max power of Low Kick and Grass knot is, correct me if I'm wrong, 120. I think the main difference between the moves is that Fighting moves have a wider selection (Focus Punch, Cross-Chop, Brick Break, Close Combat, Sky Uppercut, etc), while grass moves are lacking in comparison (Solarbeam, Energy Ball, Wood Hammer, Seed bomb, lol Bullet Seed).

Anyway, this isn't a topic about moves, it's a topic about how to use those moves to break walls.
So yeah, thanks.
19. sarunibi

Joined:
Aug 4, 2006
Messages:
319
Your welcome. And I know it's a topic about how to use moves to break walls, which is why I mentioned Low kick since it is in essence the "physical version" of Grass Knot, just a different typing. Rhyperior hates Grass Knot, but might brush off Low Kick depending on the circumstances.

I think I'll do some research on this...
20. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
Thanks again.

I'm gonna take a break from pogeymoning and calculating for a while. Don't let that stop you all from posting your opinions, support or criticisms though.
21. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
Back. I've decided to start off by listing all the walls that I'm going to do for now. So far I have (in no particular order):
~Rhyperior
~Blissey
~Skarmory
~Cresselia
~Claydol
~Dusknoir
~Foretress
~Snorlax
~Slowbro
~Suicune
~Milotic
~Swampert
~Hippowdon
~Gliscor
~Weezing
~Donphan
~Bronzong
~Regice
~Vaporeon

There are prolly a couple of obvious ones that I can't think of right now. Feel free to help out. Chances are, I'll go through each pokemon on this thread, so if I do anything wrong you guys can catch my error.

So yeah, just listing walls for now, then the most common attacks to be used against them later.
22. Nicar

Joined:
Oct 23, 2006
Messages:
223
Looking good! Even if people know how to calculate this stuff on their own, it's always nice and handy to have some lists for quick reference in case your mind slips or you're just lazy, so you're definitely not wasting your time IMO.
23. Lemmiwinks MkII

Joined:
Jun 14, 2007
Messages:
1,678
Spidersonic, that Rhyperior calculation is flawed. Solid Rock only reduces damage by one third. The number I get is 620, so Alakazam only needs 16 EVs in Sp. Atk.
24. bauer

Joined:
May 12, 2007
Messages:
203
No love for Vaporeon?
25. Spidersonic

Joined:
Mar 25, 2005
Messages:
59
Adding Vaporeon. Lemmiwinks, thanks, I knew I'd make a stupid mistake like that somewhere. I could have sworn I read somewhere that Solid Rock effectively turned 4x SE hits -> 2.33x. Oh well, whoops.