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Discussion Splash

Discussion in 'Policy Center' started by Its_A_Random, Apr 10, 2013.

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  1. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.

    ITT: We discuss arguably the weakest move in the game, because the masses appear to want to buff this (currently) absolute waste of your 3 Energy. Well, yeah, maybe we could give Splash a use, but then again, it is up to you lot as to how we should buff it, if at all.

    Here is Splash as it stands:
    [BOX]Splash: The Pokemon flops around strongly eliciting a perception of overconfidence (or stupidity) from the trainer. While odd-looking, Splash can be used as form of propulsion. Splash can allow a Pokemon to jump quite high.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring[/BOX]
    Well, this started when Leethoof went to propose all those random move proposals, most of which got vetoed or something, where as this one did not. Here was his proposed version, which itself did not get enough support, but generated enough demand for one of these...
    [BOX]Splash: The Pokemon flops around strongly eliciting a perception of overconfidence (or stupidity) from the trainer. While odd-looking, Splash can be used as form of propulsion. Splash can be used as a +1 Priority evasive attack. If evasive Splash is combined with a Damaging Evasive move, the evasive portion of the attack gets +2 Priority, and the BAP is increased by 4.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 1 (Evasive), 0 (Normal) | CT: Deferring[/BOX]
    So yeah, given that, discussion should focus on the following questions... if you could call them questions...

    • Is the proposed Splash appropriate?
    • Does Splash need a buff?
    • If so, how would you buff Splash?
    So yeah. Fire away all your "far-fetched" Splash Proposals at will, but please, keep it civil...
  2. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    No, No, N/A

    Splash has always been a bad move and I see no justification to boost it. If you need to evade things, pull from the collection of other moves that there are.
  3. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    I guess it's worth noting what this actually does. I don't have an opinion either way because this is honestly pretty minor IMO, but here is a list of fully evolved Pokemon that get Splash but don't have access to any other (non-damaging) evasive move:

    - Gyarados
    - Azumarill
    - Wobbuffet
    - Wailord
    - Grumpig
    - Milotic
    - Poliwrath / Politoed
    - Delibird
    - Snorlax
    - Sunflora

    Snorlax is kind of a kicker I guess, but at the same time it's not like Splash will be the straw that breaks the camel's back with that.
  4. Objection

    Objection

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    Well there is the whole "ASB is designed to give everything some kind of niche" philosophy that suggests that Splash should have some use.

    However, I'm not sure making it a clone of evasive Agility is the way we should go about this. Making it have some form of evasive capability does seem like the most appropriate way of buffing Splash, but I would rather it be weaker than the other evasive moves. Perhaps it should remain at 0 priority instead (hey, could be useful for evading combos or a Dig).
  5. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon is a more intuitive player
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    You have truly honed your "assume my pet philosophy is actually a guiding principle of asb" skill to a fine point, objection

    Yeah splash was literally made to suck, why are we trying to let it do anything but suck? If you want to give it marginal use, make it cost 1 en and not have consecutive use penalty, so it can be a "do nothing" command for en stall wars w/o taunt *cough jas and smash*. Do nothing being, you know, exactly what splash has always been
  6. EspyOwner

    EspyOwner

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    There is zero reason to buff Splash in my eyes. Why give a meaningless move merit?

  7. Objection

    Objection

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    Why else would the 4 BAP moves like Ember and Thundershock and Vine Whip have special properties when used in combos if the philosophy I posted isn't one that ASB uses?

    That said, I think your suggested improvement to Splash might have some merit.
  8. Leethoof

    Leethoof

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    Mine was a bad idea. I do like pwn's suggestion quite a lot, as it fills a special niche while still remaining generally useless - a perfect solution.
  9. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    While I like the notion of ASB spirit being giving every single mon/move/ability some sort of unique viability, I actually thought that Splash has already done that. If we read back on DAT description, I personally can see myself modifying it in RPs (to jump and evade, to cause a tidal wave in a pool, even to taunt "hey I'm resorting to use Splash to beat you you're worthless haha" etc.)

    Of course, on average, no sane referee would actually allow it without an struggle with his/her conscience, but do we really need to codify this when it's uses are somewhat implied already? Perhaps we should just leave it as it is, and let the gurus of flavour (Glace, Leet, yes you two) spin a tall tale about how their Gyarados used Spash and only Splash to defeat Rhyperior.
  10. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    Um...no. There's no reason to give Splash a use. It was designed to be a useless attack and there is no reason to give it a use other than 'ooh let's buff it because RAINBOWS!'.
  11. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    I like Pwnmon's but with one change: it could be used under taunt. That way, it's not 100% outclassed by chill.
  12. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Splash is an attacking move, why would taunt ever affect it
  13. Eternal Drifter

    Eternal Drifter

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    How about this? We buff Splash so that the user evades all moves that can be dodged with Levitate, and weakens Earth Power, but only for the action its used in, and only for the moves that come after the user's action. You can't dodge an Earthquake with Splash if the opponent is faster than you!

    Granted, considering that several of the users have the flying type, it may not be all that much of a buff... but it keeps in sense of the flavor of Splash.
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    Since we're getting into core philosophy here, let me explain my philosophy.

    1. I wanted to avoid move clones.

    This is why Barrier is different from Acid Armor is different from Iron Defense. Some things were added to make the moves different and complement the traits of their users.

    2. I wanted to enhance game balance.

    Weak moves have an inherent advantage of extremely low EN for workable damage if STAB, but with their combinations they essentially allow you to use a combo that won't devastate your energy if you need to break the 18 damage to disrupt a Rest or break a Substitute in a doubles match where your opponent is still vulnerable during the cooldown phase.

    Example: STAB Thundershock is 2EN and does 7 damage all things being equal. STAB Thunderbolt is 6EN and does 13 damage all things being equal. Given a fixed Energy of 100, Thundershock can be used 50 times for 350 damage while Thunderbolt can be used 17 times for 221 damage. Obviously, Thundershock KO's an enemy far too slowly even though it is vastly more efficient. The relationship changes unSTAB, where Thundershock can be used 34 times for 136 damage and Thunderbolt can be used 15 times for 150 damage. Efficiency itself isn't really a good niche, so it can combo with Thunderbolt for a 9 EN attack that does 22 damage all things being equal. If you did nothing but use that combination you could do so 12 times for 264 damage. Thundershock's efficiency along with the BAP boost therefore make the attack slightly better in an absolute sense, though in actual battle conditions the cost for that particular combo are not worth it.

    Other moves are special, like Block doing fixed damage based on Weight Class to punish damaging evasive moves, giving heavy, slow Pokemon than often lack Pursuit a way to punish opponents relying on speed differentials to get past them. Still, the descriptions fit with the general flavor.

    Onto Splash:

    In that sense, buffing Splash is "in line" but only under the reasoning there might be some game balance reasoning to justify it. Issue being that anything done to buff it could benefit several Pokemon - the big problem here being Snorlax. I for example might want Splash to be combo-able with Counter and Mirror Coat to make the Pokemon take double damage from the attack (and therfore DO double damage back) by flopping around ineptly. Problem is, that would give Snorlax Splash + Counter unless I specifically made it Wynaut/Wobb only.

    Splash does have another argument in its flavor though, mainly being the Gravity disables it so clearly there is some propulsion associated with it. As if the Magikarp Splash game in Stadium wasn't a clue. Almost to a Pokemon, things with Splash also get Bounce, and it actually *would* be useful to have Splash move Bounce's Hit priority from -1 to -3 to make it evade opposing combinations, opposing evasive moves (that are not themselves combo'd) as well as Focus Punch. It could also be used with Petal Dance to break the uncontrollable aspect of the attack and prevent confusion. Splash also makes flavor sense with Dive, so damaging evasive could indeed be used. And I could screw over Lax just by saying the mon needs to be Psychic-type, which isn't Wynaut/Wobb specific since Grumpig also can use Splash + Counter and Splash + Mirror Coat, but its HP is normal, unlike Wobb's.

    Here's how I would make it though:

    UberSplash (open)
    Splash: The Pokemon propels itself forward in a mighty leap that accomplishes nothing. While odd-looking, Splash's propulsion can be put to good use. When combined with Bounce or Dive, Splash retains the priority of the Evasive Action (the Hit is still delayed by -2) while it increases the BAP of the combining move by 1.5x (e.g. 10 becomes 15). When combined with Petal Dance, the leap causes the power of the combination to double (2x) and combination cool-down prevents the Pokemon from becoming uncontrollable or confused. If a Psychic-type combines Splash with a damage-returning attack, they leap into the offensive and receive double the damage from that attack before returning damage.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring


    Essentially Splash is still cheap but it makes for some gnarly combos - the evasive moves have high EN cost and Petal Dance is, uh, Petal Dance.
  15. UllarWarlord

    UllarWarlord

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    Supporting Deck's proposed Splash - imo it makes flavor sense (though I don't entirely understand where Petal Dance is coming from) and makes Splash usable, possibly very usable.
  16. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    What does Petal Dance have to do with Splash?
  17. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    [​IMG]
    But yeah, I guess the whole Petal Dance thing is a Sunflora buff, since it is the only Pokémon (bar Smeargle) that can learn both Splash & Petal Dance. So I guess it makes sense?
  18. Leethoof

    Leethoof

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    wobBUFFet...wholeheatedly agree with Deck's proposal. Although the psychic-typing exception is a little wonky, it works.
  19. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    Lopunny should not be exempted from the buff. Maybe change it to "if the user's Weight Class is less than 6". It makes more flavor sense anyway.
  20. Elevator Music

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    Clefable also gets Petal Dance and Splash.

    Anyways, if it matters, you could include something like Splash+Jump Kick for Lopunny.... idk
  21. akela

    akela

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    It's not. Lopunny learns Bounce.
  22. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Actually, I think the idea that Splash is used depending on the WC of the pokemon using it is pretty good, I don't think Snorlax is able to jump so high, also something for splash + counter / mirror coat, make it hit ghosts and dark types, that would make it pretty cool on wobb (not that many will use him regardless though)
  23. inanimate blob

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    A potential buff would be a system like this.

    Evasive Splash (open)

    Splash: The Pokemon flops around with wild vigor as a result of either the users' apparent weakness or from the users' strength and vitality. Splash can be used as a +1 evasive attack, but it's evasive gain is based on the weight class of the user (100/WC). Additionally, when used in a combo, it boosts the power of the combo by 1.5x power. When used in water, it has +0 priority and lowers the opponents' accuracy by one stage.
    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- (100 in water) | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 (+1 as evasive move) | CT: Deferring


    I really don't know what to do about Splash, but I do like ASB's style of having everything be worth it to have on a team, so Splash should be included in this. Additionally, my WC idea above helps to deal with Pokemon like Snorlax and Wobbuffet who would otherwise abuse the priority. The water idea can be scrapped, but it would only occur in arenas with open water sources.
  24. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    Giving this thread 24-48 hours before closing, since I do not really see anything else productive coming out of this. If nothing changes, the slate would probably be something like:
    [BOX]What type of Splash should we implement?
    Retain the Current Splash
    Implement Evasive Splash
    Implement "Do Nothing" Splash
    Implement "Uber" Splash[/BOX]
    Evasive Splash will probably cause another vote on type of evasive splash, but yeah. If you want to speak up about Splash, do so now.
  25. Eternal Drifter

    Eternal Drifter

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    Might as well get my official Splash buff possibility out there...

    [BOX]
    Splash: The Pokemon flops around strongly eliciting a perception of overconfidence (or stupidity) from the trainer. While odd-looking, Splash can be used as form of propulsion. Splash can allow a Pokemon to jump quite high, allowing them to dodge slower Ground moves Bulldoze, Earthquake, Fissure, and Magnitude this action. Slower Earth Powers will have three (3) less Base Attack Power this action. Dig and Dive can strike a faster Splashing Pokemon if their user is over Size Class 4, has Levitate, is 3.5m or larger, or is a Flying-type. Otherwise Dig and Dive will miss. Ground moves can still hit.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring[/BOX]

    In effect, Splash becomes a highly specialized evasive action, dodging and weakening certain moves, and keeps with the flavor of the attack (since Splash is "Hop" in Japanese; in this case, the user hops off the ground to dodge the listed attacks). Also, its normal priority limits use, still making it relatively useless... yet someone would likely find its use very beneficial.
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