I thought I wrote Gyarados on that one, oh well. If someone wanted to make this work, I would guess a core of Togedemaru (Fake Out, Encore + Lightning Rod support), Gyarados, and Araquanid would work? (Gastrodon and Pelipper help as well).
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Resource [SPOILERS] Early VGC 2017 Interesting Pokemon
- Thread starter TheMantyke
- Start date
- Status
So here's my first attempt at a VGC 2017 team. I don't really know much about damage calcs yet. So EV distributions are what make sense to me intuitively and/or what I've seen suggested.
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Modest Nature
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
Raichu-A @ Electric-Z
Modest Nature
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 4 Def / 242 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Psychic
- Fake Out
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Quiet Nature
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 SpD
- Hurricane
- Scald
- U-Turn
- Protect
Gastrodon @ Expert Belt
Modest Nature
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 180 HP / 108 Def / 212 SpA / 4 SpD
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Protect
Golisopod @ Red Card
Adamant Nature
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
- Leech Life
- First Impression
- Aqua Jet
- Protect
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Modest Nature
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpA
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Protect
Modest Nature
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
Raichu-A @ Electric-Z
Modest Nature
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 4 Def / 242 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Psychic
- Fake Out
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Quiet Nature
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 SpD
- Hurricane
- Scald
- U-Turn
- Protect
Gastrodon @ Expert Belt
Modest Nature
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 180 HP / 108 Def / 212 SpA / 4 SpD
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Protect
Golisopod @ Red Card
Adamant Nature
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
- Leech Life
- First Impression
- Aqua Jet
- Protect
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Modest Nature
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpA
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Protect
This is a tutor move and so it won't be legal.
Oh snap. Thank you so much.
EDIT: Wow... that really hurts. Any suggestions on what to run instead? I'm open to replacing Gastrodon altogether if need be.
EDIT AGAIN: Well no Earth Power for Gastrodon messed things up a bit. Let's try again. Haha
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Modest Nature
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
Raichu-A @ Electric-Z
Modest Nature
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 4 Def / 242 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Psychic
- Fake Out
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Quiet Nature
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 SpD
- Hurricane
- Scald
- U-Turn
- Protect
Golisopod @ Red Card
Adamant Nature
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
- Leech Life
- First Impression
- Aqua Jet
- Protect
Garchomp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Rock Slide
- Protect
Celesteela @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 68 HP / 208 Atk / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Seed Bomb
- Flame Charge
- Protect
Modest Nature
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
Raichu-A @ Electric-Z
Modest Nature
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 4 Def / 242 SpA / 252 Spe
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Psychic
- Fake Out
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Quiet Nature
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 SpD
- Hurricane
- Scald
- U-Turn
- Protect
Golisopod @ Red Card
Adamant Nature
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
- Leech Life
- First Impression
- Aqua Jet
- Protect
Garchomp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Rock Slide
- Protect
Celesteela @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 68 HP / 208 Atk / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Seed Bomb
- Flame Charge
- Protect
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Here's my VGC team v2.
It's mostly a team that works well in most situations (terrains, trick room, rain) although I will have a problem against weather wars.
We don't need no Ultra Beasts! I also don't know where to fit the Z-moves. Maybe on Metagross/Sharpedo and give Metagross the Life Orb?
The only thing that legit scares me is Xurkitree. Most of my team can handle the ultra beasts fine. If they use a Clefairy/Clefable for redirection + Tail Glow it's all over.
It's mostly a team that works well in most situations (terrains, trick room, rain) although I will have a problem against weather wars.
We don't need no Ultra Beasts! I also don't know where to fit the Z-moves. Maybe on Metagross/Sharpedo and give Metagross the Life Orb?
Pelipper @ Sitrus Berry
Quiet/Sassy Nature
EVs: 252 HP/180 SpA/76 SpD
- U-turn
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Wide Guard/Protect
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Brave Nature
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 60 HP / 144 Atk / 132 Def / 172 SpD
-Fake Out
-Knock Off
-Close Combat
-Feint/Rock Slide
Tapu Koko @ Shuca Berry
Timid Nature
EVs: 236 HP/138 SpA/140 Spe
- Nature's Madness/Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch
- Protect
- Taunt
-Outspeeds up to base 115 +speed pokemon
-Shuca + EVs help him beat Garchomp in 1v1
Sharpedo @ Life Orb/Wateruim-Z(?)
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Sp.A
-Protect
-Waterfall
-Crunch
-Psychic Fangs
Metagross @ Lum Berry (?)
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk/252 HP/4 Spe
-Protect
-Earthquake
-Meteor Mash
-Bullet Punch/Rock Slide/Zen Headbutt
Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Brave Nature
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
- Anchor Shot
- Shadow Claw
- Power Whip
- Protect
Quiet/Sassy Nature
EVs: 252 HP/180 SpA/76 SpD
- U-turn
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Wide Guard/Protect
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Brave Nature
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 60 HP / 144 Atk / 132 Def / 172 SpD
-Fake Out
-Knock Off
-Close Combat
-Feint/Rock Slide
Tapu Koko @ Shuca Berry
Timid Nature
EVs: 236 HP/138 SpA/140 Spe
- Nature's Madness/Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch
- Protect
- Taunt
-Outspeeds up to base 115 +speed pokemon
-Shuca + EVs help him beat Garchomp in 1v1
Sharpedo @ Life Orb/Wateruim-Z(?)
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Sp.A
-Protect
-Waterfall
-Crunch
-Psychic Fangs
Metagross @ Lum Berry (?)
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 Atk/252 HP/4 Spe
-Protect
-Earthquake
-Meteor Mash
-Bullet Punch/Rock Slide/Zen Headbutt
Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Brave Nature
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
- Anchor Shot
- Shadow Claw
- Power Whip
- Protect
The only thing that legit scares me is Xurkitree. Most of my team can handle the ultra beasts fine. If they use a Clefairy/Clefable for redirection + Tail Glow it's all over.
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I wouldn't try to force a Z-Move onto the team if you can't find a spot for it. They are definitely not Megas and aren't required, which is nice.
What kind of hazard setters in particular are you looking for? I have a list of all the old speed control moves (bar Trick Room)
Edit: Added new Hazard setters
Aerodactyl
Honchkrow
Murkrow
Drifblim
Pelliper
Whimsicott
Braviary
Mandibuzz
Talonflame
Toucannon
Oricorio
Butterfree
Honchkrow
Murkrow
Drifblim
Pelliper
Whimsicott
Braviary
Mandibuzz
Talonflame
Toucannon
Oricorio
Butterfree
Froslass/Glalie
Vanilluxe
Delibird
A-Sandslash
A-Ninetales
Weavile
Spinda
Glaceon
Vanilluxe
Delibird
A-Sandslash
A-Ninetales
Weavile
Spinda
Glaceon
Raticate
A-Golem
A-Raichu
Clefairy/Clefable
Wigglytuff
Alakazam
Slowbro
Slowking
Magneton
Magnezone
Hypno
Chansey
Blissey
Starmie
Mr. Mime
Electivire
Gyarados
Lapras
Jolteon
Porygon2
Porygon-Z
Dragonite
Lanturn
Murkrow
Honchkrow
Misdreavus
Mismagius
Granbull
Drifblim
Stoutland
Klefki
Vikavolt
Shiinotic
Type: Null
Silvally
Togedemaru
Mimikyu
Drampa
Tapu Koko
Nihilego
Xurkitree
A-Golem
A-Raichu
Clefairy/Clefable
Wigglytuff
Alakazam
Slowbro
Slowking
Magneton
Magnezone
Hypno
Chansey
Blissey
Starmie
Mr. Mime
Electivire
Gyarados
Lapras
Jolteon
Porygon2
Porygon-Z
Dragonite
Lanturn
Murkrow
Honchkrow
Misdreavus
Mismagius
Granbull
Drifblim
Stoutland
Klefki
Vikavolt
Shiinotic
Type: Null
Silvally
Togedemaru
Mimikyu
Drampa
Tapu Koko
Nihilego
Xurkitree
A-Golem
Sudowoodo
Probopass
Skarmory (VGC illegal)
Gigalith
Carbink
Lycanroc
Minior
Nihilego
Necrozma (VGC Illegal)
Sudowoodo
Probopass
Skarmory (VGC illegal)
Gigalith
Carbink
Lycanroc
Minior
Nihilego
Necrozma (VGC Illegal)
Beedrill
Tentacruel
Cloyster
Ariados
Garbodor
Toxapex
Nihilego
Tentacruel
Cloyster
Ariados
Garbodor
Toxapex
Nihilego
Cloyster
Delibird
Skarmory
Glalie/Froslass
Garbodor
Klefki
Golisopod
Delibird
Skarmory
Glalie/Froslass
Garbodor
Klefki
Golisopod
Ariados
Masquerain
Masquerain
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Much appreciate. I am specifically looking for stealth rocks.
dropped a quick edit of all VGC legal hazard setters :)
Just an fyi, hazards aren't good in VGC at all.
Oh really, why not? I'm new to this
Doubles is much more fast paced and less switch heavy compared to singles since only 4 pokemon are allowed in battle. Tactics like Toxic stall, entry hazards, and setup moves to an extent are rarely used since you can double target the threat before it keeps going, and sashes aren't as common unless it's an obviously super frail mon (which is usually a lead like Smeargle). Tactics like Speed Control, Intimidate (and anti-intimidate like Defiant/Competitive), Redirection moves (including Storm Drain/Lightning Rod), Fake Out, Feint, Protection (Wide Guard/Quick Guard/Protect), and Trick Room (along with Weather and Terrains this year) are more common tactics and strategies used for Doubles.
So everyone knows the hot meme combos going on with Tapu Koko leads but I honestly feel that Koko won't be the tip top tap. Here's the "problem" I have with it: It's too fast. Its terrain will be overwritten by any other Tapu that switches in on the same turn. Granted the terrain's not all it brings to the table but many of the calcs I've been seeing (not in this thread but in general) operate under the assumption he will have electric terrain which isn't necessarily a given when it's in a lead role as many people seem to be wanting to play it, alongside Pelliper, Raichu A or Politoed. Lele is probably the 2nd most scrutinized for its anti-priority properties, a lead combo immune to fake out is obviously very strong anti-lead in VGC (leading Lele in fact simply shuts down Raichu A by taking both its fake out and surge surfer away).
BUT even slower than Lele, and negating her weather, is Fini and slower yet is Bulu. So you can't try to anti-lead with Lele without worrying about getting your terrain trumped and losing priority protection. The only Tapu who can actually assume he will always have his terrain down in a lead position is Bulu, who as some have noted has a wood hammer capable of some truly terrific damage with grassy boost (it can threaten an OHKO on most Chomp sets for example). Someone in the SM forum brought up the synergy between Bulu and Incineroar as a lead combo as well. Leading with Bulu or Fini has the added effect of preventing any attempts to counter FO with Lele. Some times slow and steady does win the race, at least in the wild world of weather wars.
Another thing worth noting is that the research thread has confirmed that Tapu Fini's misty terrain now works against confusion, and Tapu Fini gets swagger. This will likely allow it to give its ally a confusion free +2 atk which doesn't depend on an item slot unlike older lum/persim swagstrats. This, combined with solid bulk, good defensive typing, decent special attack, muddy water and of course the burn/paralysis/sleep immunity, makes Fini an interesting support choice for many physical attackers.
BUT even slower than Lele, and negating her weather, is Fini and slower yet is Bulu. So you can't try to anti-lead with Lele without worrying about getting your terrain trumped and losing priority protection. The only Tapu who can actually assume he will always have his terrain down in a lead position is Bulu, who as some have noted has a wood hammer capable of some truly terrific damage with grassy boost (it can threaten an OHKO on most Chomp sets for example). Someone in the SM forum brought up the synergy between Bulu and Incineroar as a lead combo as well. Leading with Bulu or Fini has the added effect of preventing any attempts to counter FO with Lele. Some times slow and steady does win the race, at least in the wild world of weather wars.
Another thing worth noting is that the research thread has confirmed that Tapu Fini's misty terrain now works against confusion, and Tapu Fini gets swagger. This will likely allow it to give its ally a confusion free +2 atk which doesn't depend on an item slot unlike older lum/persim swagstrats. This, combined with solid bulk, good defensive typing, decent special attack, muddy water and of course the burn/paralysis/sleep immunity, makes Fini an interesting support choice for many physical attackers.
I've been kind of bearish on Xurkitree in singles but EQ's lower power in doubles and his not great but not worthless defenses put him above the two glass cannons in doubles usability. Also synergizes well with Bulu, who can further weaken EQ and covers all of the ground types that he can't thunderbolt to death.
That's part of why I might just start using Mudsdale and High Horsepower. Lose the spread damage but can't be blocked by Wide Guard, does more damage to a single target, and it's not weakened by Grassy Terrain.
It seems like its a great bulky support mon with a myriad of coverage options (no recovery) even though Xurkitree easily stops it. I can see it being one of the better UBs to pick for Doubles though since its more balanced stat wise, works in a lot of teams and is less frail.
Mixed attacking stats also help for a little unpredictability (even though it may want to abuse the Heavy Slams).
I would probably have to test what EVs/Nature would be optimal, but a set with Leech Seed/Giga Drain, Wide Guard/Protect, Heavy Slam and Coverage (EQ/Rock Slide/Giga Drain/etc.) holding leftovers sounds decent.
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Why Autotomize? Does it really need speed and can it really afford to lose the weight?
Wow i'm dumb. I forgot the autotomize heavy weight drop thing. Just forget it over leech seed I guess for more longevity.
I think most do because it normally doesn't matter. In this rare instance (and for Mudsdale) it absolutely matters.
In the VGC meta the only max power heavy slams you lose with one autotomize, IIRC are on Snorlax, Exeggutor A, Gigalith, Golem A/Golem, and maybe Hariyama? So basically, filtering out shitmons and stuff you're not gonna want to use it on anyways you're only losing effective power against Gigalith and you'll still be pretty close to what Iron Head would give you anyways.
I'd still rather have that power. I don't see moves that only raise your speed as that valuable anyways. Sure you might see someone run Agility Zapdos but most set up moves that people actually use either boost multiple stats (Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, Calm Mind) or give a big boost to one stat (Swords Dance).
Agiligross still isn't unheard of either, and in Celesteela's case you have beast boost for an attack boost on every KO which can give you a bigger effective return for your one turn investment on boosting speed. This is on a pokemon with considerable bulk, good defensive typing, good offensive coverage and with max investment is capable of 248 speed after one autotomize which puts it ahead of both max investment koko (200) or even max investment Pheromosa (223) for argument's sake, as well as any scarfers below around base 85-90 IIRC which will make it faster than scarf Xurk as well. Not to mention that even without autotomize, it does fairly well in trick room.
I don't get why you'd rather have the power either unless there's some super fat steel neutral/weak Alolamons I'm not aware of. You're still going to hit all of the important stuff at full power, the fattest Tapu weighs like 100lbs. It doesn't matter for Mudsdale at all because it's so fat that heavy slam is a bad move whether or not you lose weight, and Celsteela will probably carry grass coverage most of the time. This is also disregarding that it can easily run mixed or special sets with access to fire blast, grass knot, air slash, ect and also gets wide guard which is always a nice support option against rock sliders.
I don't get why you'd rather have the power either unless there's some super fat steel neutral/weak Alolamons I'm not aware of. You're still going to hit all of the important stuff at full power, the fattest Tapu weighs like 100lbs. It doesn't matter for Mudsdale at all because it's so fat that heavy slam is a bad move whether or not you lose weight, and Celsteela will probably carry grass coverage most of the time. This is also disregarding that it can easily run mixed or special sets with access to fire blast, grass knot, air slash, ect and also gets wide guard which is always a nice support option against rock sliders.
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