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Metagame [SPOILERS] ULTRA SM - Speculation & Discussion

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Gary, Nov 9, 2017.

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  1. Leo

    Leo you are badges will get stripped
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    Has anyone claiming that Ribombee OHKOs Diancie with HP Steel even ran a calc? I've read that argument many times here and on Discord and it's just a bad roll with Naive and never kills if neutral natured:
    252 SpA Ribombee Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie-Mega: 220-260 (91.2 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    There's also the chance that the Diancie user doesn't Mega Evolve and always survives so on top of that bad roll it's a 50-50, I don't think this is reliable at all. Most likely you'll end up with a 1HP Ribombee and neither webs nor rocks with a very low chance to get them up at any point in the game. I guess there's also Skill Swap but then again the Diancie user can not Mega Evolve and not care at all, it just seems too unreliable of a mon with very low reward of using (trades the ability to get both hazards up reliably just to have a chance to bypass Diancie).
  2. 13_luckynumber

    13_luckynumber

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    How does Shuckle, the Web setter that you're trading off in this case, get Web and Rocks up reliably against Mega Diancie again?

    On Ribombee vs Diancie: First, it doesnt matter if Diancie mega evolve or not, Ribombee is the surviving one since it's faster and at worst 2HKOes. (Also, that not Mega Evolve play is a 2-way street: you dont click Mega Evolve = i click Web. Let's not speak like the Diancie player is in total control there). And after your Diancie dies, Ribombee outspeeds the entire unboosted meta bar Tapu Koko so out of Scarfers and priorities (which in this case, you can clearly see coming if the opponent send out like a Garchomp or a Tapu Lele), Ribombee can get Web up and potentially let you know what is running scarf on your opponent's team. It's the speed that make it not trash. Can Shuckle do the same? I dont think so? So you're not trading off to get back nothing. Shuckle is deadweight against Mega diancie while Ribombee can function.

    Also, against team featuring MegaSab, yeah you dont need Web up but you sure do like to not have to play 5vs6 from turn 1 since Ribombee can kill Sableye for you if need. Shuckle is is more like free recover fodder for the mega.

    In my original post, I clearly said Ribombee is at best a not-bad alternative Shuckle so it's not like oversold it or anything. Ribombee can get Web up against prominent threats that Shuckle is useless against, that's its niche.

    tl;dr: Ribombee can get web up against mega diancie. shuckle can't. If your team can benefit from Ribombee doing that, you can use it.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  3. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY

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    I'm really curious about webs vs stall in context of 5 vs 6. You'll probably lose Your sash on a good switch into to rocks cause stall is getting it's rocks off vs You no matter what and some teams run ditto for other stall/run away sweepers so the drop won't matter on a set up sweeper.

    Idk defog more common place with Your at best a 1 time set up just seems meh when You cancel out a scarf on a grennija set.

    I really wanna know want one on one's You wanna turn around

    Aka I smashed 3/4 of a tequila bottle and weight 143 pounds
  4. Qplaz

    Qplaz

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    I think you're completely missing the point of the post here (points responded to in bold and brackets)
    1) "How does Shuckle, the Web setter that you're trading off in this case, get Web and Rocks up reliably against Mega Diancie again?"
    Leo never claimed that Shuckle gets rocks on diancie. His point was that you're trading the ability to run 2 hazards on one mon for the ability to bypass another threat, which is really nice as you have more flexibility by not being forced to run rocks on a separate mon
    2) "Also, that not Mega Evolve play is a 2-way street: you dont click Mega Evolve = i click Web. Let's not speak like the Diancie player is in total control there"
    It is, at best, a 50/50 if the Diancie user is going to mega evolve. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting one of two main messages out of this statement: a) that you're going to win the fifty fifty every single time,or b) that you're assuming just because your opponent didn't mega evolve turn 1 means that they won't mega evolve turn 2 and you can proceed to click webs. Given that regular diancie is 2hkod by HP steel anyway, your opponent will have nothing to lose by Mega Evolving the next turn to prevent webs if that's what you want to click, so again you'll be left with a 1HP ribombee that can't really do much because any sane opponent will try to revenge kill it, and get rocks up at some point during the game (which is preventable but still doable for a lot of people).
    3) "Ribombee outspeeds the entire unboosted meta bar Tapu Koko so out of Scarfers and priorities..."
    Even if you are going to switch out ribombee, you're going to be hard pressed to get it back in later in the game, as you have to play extremely well to prevent your opponent from getting hazards at any point throughout the game. Additionally, what if you give webs to something that snowballs very easily e.g. Ashninja or one Naganadel? I doubt that your webs offense will be able to deal particularly well with a +1 nag, for example
    4) "Shuckle is deadweight against Mega diancie while Ribombee can function."
    While this is true, Shuckle maintains a niche in having both rocks and webs on one mon. This is really nice bc it just gives you a bit more flexibility with building the team. Basically, you're trading a matchup against one mon for flexibility with building. I guess ribombee is justifiable, but I feel as if the extra utility that shuckle brings is going to triumph once the Ribombee hype dies down.
    5) "...sure do like to not have to play 5vs6 from turn 1"
    I don't know how Ribombee is beating stall, you're not even getting close to damaging chansey / most things with decent special bulk. Webs vs stall means almost nothing, and Ribombee can't break at least a third of the team, so while the stall matchup is ever so slightly better it isn't improved in any meaningful way

    I hope I haven't come across as too aggressive, but I honestly think that Ribombee is overhyped. Sure, it certainly has a niche, but I think if you're going to be running a webs build it's going to face a lot of competition from Shuckle.

    e: *being overhyped
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  5. 13_luckynumber

    13_luckynumber

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    I only read this part of your post but let me just say this: 1) there's no hype to overhype for Ribombee and 2) it has a niche and it's not better than shuckle. We agree on that.

    I'm done

    Leo

    We actually agree. There is absolutely no disagreement. I dont understand why you bash for not reading while i clearly said I agree with him.

    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  6. Kefky

    Kefky

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    Do we know if Passimian and Oranguru got their hidden abilities in USUM?
  7. DisguiseBusted!

    DisguiseBusted!

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    Oranguru's HA is avaiable in SM already.
    I don't think Passimian has his one realeased in USUM. At least that's what I read, but I could be wrong.
  8. Kefky

    Kefky

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    They're both unreleased because when they call for help in SM, no Oranguru and Passimian answer the call. I was hoping they fixed that.
  9. Leo

    Leo you are badges will get stripped
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    If you cared to read others' posts instead of just making false claims one after another you would understand already why Ribombee has no place in OU. I seriously don't understand how you don't get this yet despite it being thoroughly explained to you twice but I guess you just chose to ignore everyone else's opinion and focus on your own
    Romanticist, Muscle K, Qplaz and 5 others like this.
  10. DisguiseBusted!

    DisguiseBusted!

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    I'm dumb, I thought Guru's HA was Inner Focus.
    Sorry. I should have checked better.
  11. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

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    I mean if you’re running Focus Sash, yeah, but you could always not:

    252 SpA Expert Belt Ribombee Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 235-278 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    Even without Naive nature on Diancie, Expert Belt has an 80% chance to one shot, and that becomes guaranteed with Life Orb, though that’s hardly necessary since most Diancie run Naive anyway, and Expert Belt always OHKOs Naive variants.
    If you lead with non-sash Ribombee and the opponent leads with Diancie, and you strongly believe that Diancie is going to just not Mega Evolve and click Diamond Storm but don’t want the risk of clicking Webs and having them bounced back, you can just click U-Turn. If you do that, you get one of the following scenarios:

    A) Diancie doesn’t Mega Evolve, making your switch-in to Diamond Storm an easy one.

    B) Diancie does Mega Evolve, making the switch-in harder but guaranteeing Diancie can no longer beat your Ribombee in a 1v1 later.

    C) Diancie switches out to something that can take the HP Steel, and you get switch advantage, retaining momentum.

    Basically no matter what happens, the risk-to-reward scenario greatly favors the Ribombee user, and this is assuming a lead scenario to begin with. If Diancie ever Mega Evolves with Ribombee still around, Diancie loses the ability to potentially win the 1v1 at all. But this is all assuming you’re running the Expert Belt set I recommended; if you’re running the Focus Sash set that you assumed Ribombee would run, why not click HP Steel? Even regular Diancie is 2HKO’d by it, so you still win the 1v1 no matter what. Unless the opponent is running Pursuit Weavile, you can always just set Webs as you die or switch, meaning you either kill Diancie, set webs, and get a free switch, or you kill Diancie and keep Ribombee alive for later, just forcing you to keep hazard clear, which will be a lot easier in the USUM meta thanks to all the new viable Defoggers.

    Look, we’re not saying that Ribombee will be a major game-changer for Webs or anything, just that it is definitely one of the best setters of the move, and that if Webs has a niche, Ribombee has a niche, since Mega Diancie almost singlehandedly destroys the archetype.
  12. Latioswars

    Latioswars

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    If i were you i would be worried about how to bypass other defoggers like lando t and gliscor instead of running a shitty calc that barely kills a naive diancie, hp ice > hp steel the last move is a gimmick also moonblast 2kos most diancie sets.
  13. Leo

    Leo you are badges will get stripped
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    Ok first of all not running Focus Sash on a frail suicide lead is a terrible idea for a number of reason I shouldn't even need to list, like there's so many mons that now stop your webs just because you decided to have a higher chance to bypass Diancie. And how does using U-Turn on Diancie put you in a better position when your opponent cant just proceed to set up rocks, break the sash you should be running, thus making it easier to prevent your webs with any faster mon. And all of this while still not being able to set up rocks with your suicide lead, something you could prevent by just using the only viable webs setter in Shuckle. And I don't see how having a 1HP Ribombee without webs up is a good trade for KOing Diancie when its very easy to stop it from setting up webs for the rest of the game (tip: set up your own rocks), just another reason to use Shuckle>Ribombee
    I like donkeys likes this.
  14. ShadowMarioGalaxy64

    ShadowMarioGalaxy64

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    Just gonna say that the only thing more ridiculous than Naganadel overhype is trying to justify The Bee Movie as viable. So hey, Biggie Cheese, could you maybe stop?

    I did have an actual question, however. With Liquidation being spread around to more Pokemon, will it make a significant difference? Like, what Pokemon was Azumarill and CORPHEESH just barely missing out on that makes it a bigger deal, short of the much better effect for slower Pokemon? I know 5 Base Power is small, but still notable ENOUGH, but I was more wondering specifically what is in particularly more trouble because of it...again, short of the potential Defense drop.

    I also really don't see Accelgor being very big in OU. Truth be told, suicide leads seem to be a dying fad at this point; I stopped running them in late B2W2 when I figured I can just build a good balanced core or two, instead.

    Anyways, the most dangerous thing I see is Landorus-T with Defog. While one would be foolish to run Stealth Rock with it (too much valuable coverage), this adds yet another role it will be able to perform and likely somewhat effectively on top of that. I know the big running joke now is "Lando get banned", but as I try to keep in mind: we'll figure it out in practice, not paper.

    Gonna reiterate that all of this Ribombee talk is borderline derailing, since that is a Pokemon that has no purpose in OU--hell, I'd argue that Accelgor and Pikachu has more purpose in this tier (disclaimer: please don't use Accelgor and/or Pikachu in OU). If there is a Pokemon that, without a doubt, improved considerably to where it can be used--see Feraligatr when it (eventually) received Sheer Force as a breedable ability--then it's of course justified to being it up in discussion. On a completely different field, you are talking about HIDDEN POWER STEEL! At what point do you reconsider?
  15. FCKNfuego

    FCKNfuego

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    Outside of Cloyster and Azumaril getting slightly better toys nothing has really changed for the new users of this move. Most of the sweepers are going to prefer Waterfall for it's flinch chance anyway and a lot of users have better options.

    Webs Ribombee does have some merits over Shuckle in OU but if we're really getting to the point that we're discussing HP Steel to hit one mon then you know this is some pointless discussion.

    To add something to the discussion, what are people's thoughts on Tailwind and some of it's new users? Both Kartana and Nagadanel get it and can make some nice use out of it on a solo set considering they both have Beast Boost.

    Also, what do people think of Blacephalon outside of the obvious "it dies to Tar Pursuit "comment? This mon doesn't look like it has much good switchins outside of AV users and even then it gets Knock Off to threaten those mons. Pain Split with it's low HP is also a means of getting around a number of mons, including Tar to some degree.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  16. robopoke

    robopoke

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    Ok I thought about this for a long time and and here is my thoughtprocess:

    The number one priority of any Webssteam is to get up Webs asap. Against fat teams Rocks are superior. Dedicating two mons to get up Webs+Rocks can be fine if those mons are amazing themselves. Ribombee is a bad mon outside of Webs (you can say it is bad with Webs, too but I am just referring to our current metagame where Ribombee without Webs is 100% useless) .But this is all fine, if you can at least get up Webs all the time right? I will consider two items: Focus Sash and Life Orb. Before I start I want to mention that there is always the possibility to antilead Mega Diancie, force it out and sack your antilead by spamming the attack that will kill regular Diancie to discouarage a double switch to ensure you get a safe switch to your Websetter. In this case both Shuckle and Ribombee can get up Webs. Just Shuckle is better overall in this scenario:

    Focus Sash Ribombee is not strong enough to oneshot Mega Diancie with HP Steel. Even a combination of U-Turn into sack into HP Steel does not kill 100% of the time.
    Calcs:
    252 SpA Ribombee Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 196-232 (81.3 - 96.2%)
    16 Atk Ribombee U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 22-27 (9.1 - 11.2%)
    Min damage is 90.4 and max dmg is 107.4. That is a ~40% chance to to get the roll you need.

    If Mega Diancie is -Spdef, the minroll is 100.3%. Knowing that HP Steel will kill, the Mega Diancie user might switch out to scout for HP Steel. Unless you have balls of Steels (literally) you will click HP Steel and now you have to win a 50/50 against a potential Mega Diancie coming back in on your Sticky Webs.

    Conclusion with Focus Sash Ribombee:
    1) U-Turn+HP Steel against neutral defensive Mega Diancie has a ~40% chance to kill Mega Diancie. If you cannot kill Mega Diancie, you are at Sash and useless and will most likely never get up Rocks. The price is sacking a mon on the U-Turn.
    2) If you straight up HP Steel twice and happen to kill Mega Diancie, you are a Ribombee at 1% health. It requires careful playing to have a chance to get up Webs later. Usually you will not be able to and if you find a situation to get up Webs, it probably will not matter anymore

    Life Orb Ribombee:
    There is sadly no spread that will 100% kill neutral Mega Diancie with LO HP Steel and always lives Frustation from Mega Lopunny. You need at least 196 Spa with LO and there are not enough EVs left for bulk. Also Mega Scizor has a high chance to oneshot you with Bullet Punch. Life Orb should never be used.

    My opinion:
    Ribombee is a Websetter that can get up Webs against a Mega Diancie Squad but you need amazing plays, lucky rolls or a -Spd Mega Diancie. Unless you make amazing plays, getting up Webs will be very expensive. Safe Webs will cost you 1-2 sacks and even then it can still be a 50/50 between predicting HP Steel after multiple U-Turns or predicting Webs on you predicting him to predict HP Steel. Even if you win the 50/50, you have left a healthy Ribombee and maybe 3 Sweepers. Most likely you will lose because just having Webs does not mean you will win. The best play is always to antilead Diancie and force it out. As already said, Shuckle is the go to Setter in that scenario.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  17. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Ribombee sounds really fine and dandy as a Webs setter until you realize the Diancie user can turn the tables around by just not running a Naive nature.

    It's the sad truth for Webs.
  18. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY

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    I don't if anyone else has been hyperventing on safe switch ins on topapex with toxic/scald/knock off/haze(not a set but not something I wanna scout)

    But Lum berry sword dance garchomp seems like a sick answer
  19. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men

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    I'm enjoying reading the Ribombee talk (I really am /s), as if Diancie is going to be ran on every single team that the Webs Ribombee is up against.

    Ribombee is by no means going to be an amazing web setter, I think that goes without saying, but this idea that boils down to "it can't beat Diancie 100% of the time, and set rocks, therefore it's unviable" is just as bad as insinuating it's going to be a God of a 'mon. It's a web setter that's ridiculously fast, has surprisingly spammable STAB, a semi-respectable SpA stat, and has a decent chance of removing mDiancie. It absolutely has a niche for teams that need webs up.

    Why this discussion has gotten as heated as it has is beyond me.
  20. FCKNfuego

    FCKNfuego

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    I also don't get why people are assuming Webs HAVE to be set up at the start of a game.

    Ribombee will work fine as a mid game setter for it.
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  21. MaahirMomtaz12

    MaahirMomtaz12

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    I don't like how people want you to not use specific mons in OU just because they say it's bad even though they've never used them. Accelgor looks like it can have a cool niche as a Dual Spikes setter. And also the only reason why a playstyle is niche is because a lot of people don't use it, but that doesn't mean a playstyle like Sticky Web is bad and shouldn't be used. This is a speculation thread, not a "This is bad don't use it because I said so" thread
  22. LordHelix

    LordHelix

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    This, we're trying to discuss how the mon will fare in OU, can we not be conscending and shut others up bcz u think its outclassed (yea it has competition of course but dont try to act like it has NO niche at all, 124 speed web setter with offensive presence is not something that sounds bad at all). Its just as dumb as claiming naganadel is broken before we even tried him out
    Yea and if you read others posts too instead of making false claims one after another (who cares if it has 50/50s with diancie? Are u gonna forget that it beats so many other things?, "ooh but gren just battles bonds on bee after its sash is broken", u know that happens vs shuckle too?) You would understand already why ribombee sounds like a potential good web setter in ou

    A mon that beats lead grens, lopunny, diancies, lando, gliscor is not bad in my book tbh, yea shuckle sets up rocks too but it literally has ZERO offensive presence, how is a web setter that is only outsped and taunted by koko in this metagame a bad option?

    My two cents, i would rather run hpice, moonblast, energy ball and sticky webs on it, hpice lets it 2hko even spdef gliscor/lando, energy ball 2hkos diancie and moonblast for stab. Hp steel doesnt sound that good tbh when a random gliscor just defogs on u
  23. GlassVeins

    GlassVeins formerly ksr15

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    Y'know, I haven't looked through all the discussion, so I don't know if this has been brought up, but I think that defog serperior could be useful if bulky water types other than pex ever come back in style. With its ability to force switches, revenge kill, and generally pressure opposing teams, it should get quite a few chances to use it. (then again, maybe i'm just a fan of serperior in general)
    Also, who named the new mons? Maybe I'm just getting old, but they sound pretty absurd even for pokemon names.
  24. pubby

    pubby

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    Assumptions are being made that webs in USUM will play exactly like webs in SUMO did; that is, using a single suicide lead and being 100% dependent on getting webs up early and keeping them up. I think that's a highly reasonable assumption, but it's nowhere near fact.

    Players may very well start using multiple Web setters on their teams. For example, Shuckle as a lead and Araquanid/Ribombee as a backup.

    There's also the possibility for teams to start using Webs without being true "Web" teams. The hazard might check enough threats for it to be worth running

    Is this all unlikely? Probably. But I hope you all will be a little more open-minded.
  25. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. @Choice Specs
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    Getting this heated about theorymonning is stupid. The game isn't even out yet, if you think Ribombee will be good, then ignore the people who disagree with you and use it when the game comes out. The results will speak for themselves. Same thing goes for Naganadel. Yeah it has the potential to be broken, but I doubt the council will send it straight to Ubers without even testing it, so just wait and see. None of us really knows what the metagame will look like a month into USUM, so relax and don't get so toxic about it.
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