1. GET SMOGON SHIRTS HERE! First time ever. Limited time only & next time the design will be different, so get it while you can!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

STABmons Doubles Banlist Voting

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Nollan, Aug 28, 2013.

?

Additionally, do you think the combination of Spore/Sleep Powder + Prankster should be banned?

Poll closed Sep 4, 2013.
  1. Yes

    56.3%
  2. No

    37.5%
  3. Just Ban Whimsicott & Cottonee

    6.3%
  1. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    895
    ~Approved by Arcticblast~

    STABmons Doubles: Banlist Voting (and Discussion)

    Alright, so for those who do not know, there has been a lot of controversy around the topic of Rain in STABmons Doubles, and the topic of Water Spout and Eruption (for more information on this, visit the thread). So, we are going to settle things down by putting it to a vote. I'm not positive on how long this vote will last. Also note this thread can be for discussion about the banlist as well, but please be respectful.

    The options to choose from are:

    Ban Drizzle
    Ban Water Spout, Eruption, and Swift Swim
    Ban Water Spout & Eruption
    Ban Drizzle + Swift Swim
    Don't Ban Anything


    I'd recommend you do not vote unless you have played some games of STABmons Doubles, voting without knowing about the metagame is pretty weird, to say the least. Also remember to cast your votes in bold, and choose only one of the options shown above. Given this vote is also allowed to be a discussion on the matter, you can change votes around occasionally, but don't change your vote just so the winner will change, do it with good reason. Alright, let the voting begin!
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  2. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    895
    I'll start things off:

    Ban Water Spout and Eruption
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  3. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    999
    Wait a minute...

    We cannot vote for Swift Swim only ban?

    Ban Drizzle + Swift Swim only

    If that is not possible, then Don't ban anything
  4. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    895
    From what I remember, that was the first ban tried, but it didn't work out so well, and we decided that the biggest problem was Water Spout. But I'll add it, if you demand so. :[
  5. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,284
    Don't Ban Anything regardless of my opinions, I'm just thinking use arcticblast's plan of not banning anything and just LET THE META STABLIZE AND GROW BEFORE WE DO SOMETHING
  6. Mr Omgness

    Mr Omgness

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    216
    I'm gonna refrain from voting as my knowledge of the Doubles metagame is not big enough imo. But if I'd be king I'd ban all weathers, haha.
  7. Pikachuun

    Pikachuun

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,506
    Ban Eruption and Water Spout
    Fortunately I have that knowledge :p
    If we were to not do this, we would be forced to ban Sun and Rain. Why? Allow me to explain: These moves are typically used in their respective weathers, by the pokes used with the same type. Not only that, Follow Me/Rage Powder allowed these moves to flourish, forcing spread moves to be used to counter Eruption/Water Spout. Not only that, with that strategy, these 2 moves almost always have 150 BP. Multiply that power by 2.25 (STAB + Weather) and apply the spread multiplier and you get a move with the effective BP of Single-Target Explosion (That's 250 BP!) hitting both of your Pokes for massive damage that, unlike in Singles, cannot be stopped or even weakened with Priority. The only counters to these moves are the polar opposite of the weather they flourish in or a faster spread move, which, considering that the primary abusers have insane speed, is pretty hard to use. If that isn't overcentralizing, idk what is. And don't even get me started on Gem users with their 375 BP shenanigans. So why do we have to ban Sun and Rain if these two moves aren't banned? Water Spout and Eruption drop from that 250 BP to ~170 BP. Huge difference, I know, and it will patch up the hole of over-centralization a bit, besides Prankster Rain Dance/Sunny Day, causing that to be banned (each turn counts for 2, which is more important), etc.

    So how will this vote change the meta? Eruption users will be forced to run Heat Wave instead, which is 75 BP plus modifiers instead of ~110, and Water Spout users will be forced to run Surf/Muddy Water, which is in the same boat. While they are very good in doubles as well, they're certainly not as godly as Water Spout and Eruption. While this forces you to most likely run Searing Shot, the other water move, or something else for that second spread, I believe that banning Eruption and Water Spout will allow the meta to be slightly more balanced.
  8. Hollywood

    Hollywood more fun.
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Other Metas Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4,087
    Don't Ban Anything

  9. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    999
    But, Pikachuun, that is a kind of extreme opinion about the power level of Eruption and Water Spout, especially since your entire post implies that the moves are easy to spam and hard to prevent from being spammed, which I definitely do not believe is true.

    Basically, if you do any damage to the Pokemon that is using this move, Eruption or Water Spout does much less damage. Second of all, now that Wide Guard is everywhere (normal users and Rock-types), it is really not hard to play around, especially considering how obvious the moves are. Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed is also extremely potent, and that will easily render the spread moves kind of useless.

    Sure, it can reach high Base Power for a spread move, but you do not have to go out of your way to counter it in my opinion (maybe I am just too good at this game), and the counters that you might run to them are not specifically for the moves, and work for other situations too
  10. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    895
    I'd like to clarify that this thread/vote is not for arguing, but simply for resolving the big argument that came up in response to TheBurgerKing and others banning Drizzle. This thread is here to resolve this argument so we can all get on with our lives. That is why "Don't Ban Anything" is an option. I'm not saying we have to ban anything, we're here to resolve an argument as peacefully and calmly as we can. As such, I do not want to hear rude comments or insults. Some discussion or expanding on our opinions on the matter is fine, just be respectful.

    Now, as for my opinion, over 5 battles or such I have found Water Spout to be extremely powerful, especially with Rage Powder, as a fast Rage Powder 'mon will make Wide Guard the only option to block these moves (Storm Drain will not draw it in since it hits both targets), and unlike Rage Powder, it fails in succession. As such there is really no reliable way to block these moves, and they will be doing massive damage, not to mention you can run multiple spammers of the same move on one team. I really feel Water Spout isn't a premature ban, as both theory and playtesting have shown that nothing will be able to work around it reliably (at least from what I have seen). I think it would be safer to just kick out these moves for now, at least, and let the metagame grow on its own from there.
  11. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast have one on me
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,483
    I never want to interfere with the tiering of an OM (I leave that to the OP), but my issue was that BK banned Drizzle outright with (what seemed to be) no prior discussion. If Drizzle is that much of a problem, then by all means ban Drizzle, but let people discuss it first.
  12. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    895
    (Hopefully) This will be what this thread is for apart from just voting.
  13. SpartanMalice

    SpartanMalice

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    391
    I don't think drizzle itself should be banned. That would pave the way for Sun and Sand, and sand is arguably more powerful with Excadrill as well, not to mention Venusaur, Sawsbuck etc having ChloroSpore. This would take the balance out of the meta, as Politoed can pose a threat to both Tyranitar and Ninetales while the lack of Swift Swim shouldn't be much of a problem for it. Not to mention Dugtrio isn't very good in doubles and trapping may be redundant.

    So for now I'll vote for Ban Drizzle + Swift Swim.
  14. The Reptile

    The Reptile we're all skeletons on the inside
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,282
    Don't Ban Anything

  15. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    968
    BAN EVERYTHING NOTHING HUFHEIVIWVCIK<UGC<KGU<U
  16. Snaquaza

    Snaquaza

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,044
    Don't Ban Anything

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)