Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

EV

Banned deucer.
252+ Atk Mega Charizard Y V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sun: 414-487 (121.4 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO jus sayin, this is a viable set zard y runs (mixed physical)
AFAIK no Zard Y runs + Attack. + Speed is better because neutral Attack V-create already 2HKOs Chansey and you outspeed.

Added some stuff from the lists that I found appropriate. Also check out the new #1. And yes, I have seen it on the ladder.
 
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Eruption/Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 343-405 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew on a critical hit: 331-391 (97 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 330-388 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 328-387 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 308-363 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 298-351 (87.3 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
 
252+ Atk Guts Heracross High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 339-399 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Ninetales Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 400-472 (117.3 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 418-493 (122.5 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 427-504 (125.2 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 465-547 (136.3 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 471-555 (138.1 - 162.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO




Also Eevee General can you remove the mention of NP thunderous from the OP? It got banned, didn't it?
 

EV

Banned deucer.
You're all Stall-weak right now. Yes you!


So what are you going to do about it?


Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pin Missile
- High Jump Kick / Close Combat
- Rock Blast / Bullet Seed

Pros
  • Demolishes most stall builds, sometimes even without boosting!
  • Can beat both common Unaware walls (unless Clefbale is max Defense).
  • Threatens most playstyles.
Cons
  • Walled by Doublade (but it's pretty rare).
  • Prefers Speed control support (paralysis/Sticky Web) to improve its matchup versus offense.
  • No recovery and vulnerability to all status.


Togekiss @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace / Super Luck
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash / Oblivion Wing
- Moonblast

Pros
  • "Thundurus 2.0"
  • Serene Grace + Twave + Air Slash can hax its way through stall and offense alike.
  • Nasty Plot helps it break through bulky builds.
  • Super Luck should be run with a Life Orb and Oblivion Wing.
Cons
  • Lacks Taunt. (You'll never be glamour.)
  • Often relies on hax. (You should be ashamed.)
  • Vulnerable to all status, though Heal Bell is a possibility.


What are some of your favorite stallbreakers?
 
I've never used Mega Heracross, but could it afford to drop a move for Heal Order? Since most Stall mons aren't able to 2HKO, it sounds like it could be a powerful win con. If you notice that your opponent's only answer is status, you can just stay in regular form and sweep that way.

Also Togekiss' standard OU Stallbreaker set still seems like the most effective build for me. You need Roost + Heal Bell to set up on mons like Chansey, and Moonblast isn't terribly helpful versus stall (still is resisted by Steel, while Electric and Rock stall mons are rare). Thunder Wave is only useful versus offense because Speed invested Togekiss pretty much outpaces most stall already.
 

Mq

It's Megaqwer's Time!
You're all Stall-weak right now. Yes you!


So what are you going to do about it?


Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pin Missile
- High Jump Kick / Close Combat
- Rock Blast / Bullet Seed

Pros
  • Demolishes most stall builds, sometimes even without boosting!
  • Can beat both common Unaware walls (unless Clefbale is max Defense).
  • Threatens most playstyles.
Cons
  • Walled by Doublade (but it's pretty rare).
  • Prefers Speed control support (paralysis/Sticky Web) to improve its matchup versus offense.
  • No recovery and vulnerability to all status.


Togekiss @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace / Super Luck
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash / Oblivion Wing
- Moonblast

Pros
  • "Thundurus 2.0"
  • Serene Grace + Twave + Air Slash can hax its way through stall and offense alike.
  • Nasty Plot helps it break through bulky builds.
  • Super Luck should be run with a Life Orb and Oblivion Wing.
Cons
  • Lacks Taunt. (You'll never be glamour.)
  • Often relies on hax. (You should be ashamed.)
  • Vulnerable to all status, though Heal Bell is a possibility.


What are some of your favorite stallbreakers?
Have I missed anything or does Mega heracross actually gets "guts" as it's ability....although togekiss looks like such a amazing mons which is just annoying to handle >_< (and that t-wave)
 
Regular Heracross gets Guts -- if you set the ability of the regular form while using the Mega in the team builder, it will apply to the regular form pre-Mega.
 
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god coming through


crawdaunt @ life orb
ability: adaptability
evs: 252 atk / 4 def / 252 spe
jolly nature
- water shuriken
- knock off
- crabhammer
- steam eruption

crawdaunt is so slept on man. a god right here. breaks each team but is worried about alomomola/ferro/venu, so you bring along a mega gardevoir + landorus-t and you're completely set. luv this pokemon. steam eruption fucking rocks. although crawdaunt's shit at special attacking, it lets it ohko lando-t and burn anything that switches in (hopefully) while not exactly being weak. burn = crippled, coupled with knock off that rocks. still making a /solid/ team with it, since it's kinda meh versus offense, but if you're concerned about stall, slap a crawdaunt on and you're set. could use superpower/sd if you want but i prefer steam eruption.

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 354-419 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 281-333 (71.3 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 525-619 (129.9 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 244-289 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 359-426 (91.1 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 286-338 (78.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 411-484 (107.5 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(compared to -1 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 281-333 (73.5 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 244-291 (76.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 95-112 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Lets talk about some flames right here:



Espeon @ Flame Plate
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Judgment
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled

Espeon is my go to Stall killer (since everyone is running this shit since Thundy got banned smh...) as reflecting status is such a detriment to those type of teams. Stored Power plows back special walls such as Chansey and Clefable after a couple of Calm Mind boosts and Fire Judment is nice to deal with Steel and Dark types such as Ferrothorn and Mega Sableye respectively. It also cannnot be walled by Unaware mons thanks to Stored Power retaining its incredible BP while facing them. Here are some calc:

+4 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 450-529 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable: 318-375 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Flame Plate Espeon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 186-219 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There is so much more, but honeslty people should start using it more often in general :O
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
god coming through


crawdaunt @ life orb
ability: adaptability
evs: 252 atk / 4 def / 252 spe
jolly nature
- water shuriken
- knock off
- crabhammer
- steam eruption

crawdaunt is so slept on man. a god right here. breaks each team but is worried about alomomola/ferro/venu, so you bring along a mega gardevoir + landorus-t and you're completely set. luv this pokemon. steam eruption fucking rocks. although crawdaunt's shit at special attacking, it lets it ohko lando-t and burn anything that switches in (hopefully) while not exactly being weak. burn = crippled, coupled with knock off that rocks. still making a /solid/ team with it, since it's kinda meh versus offense, but if you're concerned about stall, slap a crawdaunt on and you're set. could use superpower/sd if you want but i prefer steam eruption.
Why run a Jolly Nature and no SpA investment if running Steam Eruption? Thats kinda stupid if you ask me.
 
Why run a Jolly Nature and no SpA investment if running Steam Eruption? Thats kinda stupid if you ask me.
because it doesn't help anything. you dont use steam for power, but for burns and ohko on lando-t. unless it lets it hit something for a secure 2hko, there's no reason to lower crawdaunt's already low bulk.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
because it doesn't help anything. you dont use steam for power, but for burns and ohko on lando-t. unless it lets it hit something for a secure 2hko, there's no reason to lower crawdaunt's already low bulk.
It's not going to live an attack anyway, so I'd rather -SDef or -Def, which are already useless.
 
Am I missing something here? If landorus switches into crawdaunt (for some godawful reason), then it either gets OHKO'd by Crabhammer if it's offensive, or outsped and outprioritized for the 2HKO if it's defensive. If the opponent has nothing better to put in after a death than full HP defensive landorus, then I guess I'll either take the 2 for 1 or switch out. I'd much rather have Superpower (which hits Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Chansey, Porygon2, and Mega Gyarados), Sucker Punch, SD, or DD than Steam Eruption. Also, Ice Beam is a much better special coverage move, if you really want one, since it bops Lando, Garchomp, and the rarer Whimsicott and Hydreigon, and hits most of the grass and dragon types that can switchin on Crabhammer for decent damage.

Also, I would take -Def in the mixed case, since it dies to every physical attack in the whole meta anyways and the only pokemon it can sorta come in on and force out are Slowbro/Slowking, and Chansey. Weavile without Low Kick is the only physical pokemon it can switch in on and 1v1, but it takes 45 from Knock Off which is pathetic.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
might as well live a weak attack if you can. that serves more purpose than a tiny increase in power for a move you dont use often anyways imo.
I assume it was mixed, since Adaptability allows it to hit pretty hard.

4 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 190-224 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is actually not bad and would catch physically defensive Pokemon by surprise. If you really are fishing for burns run Scald, which has better PP and accuracy. And Crawdaunt should be trying to punch holes, not get burns that honestly barely help it.
 
Just out of curiosity, why was Mega Aerodactyl and Thundurus banned?
I guess a very strong Brave Bird/Dragon Ascent lead to Mega Aerodactyl's ban.
 
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What walls? smh Hippowdon is bad
Wow, that is very strong, but Head Smash has heavy recoil, though. I guess Roost compensates for the recoil.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Wow, that is very strong, but Head Smash has heavy recoil, though. I guess Roost compensates for the recoil.
the problem with aero is that offensively it hits a speed tier near impossible to revenge kill, a typing that shrugs off fakespeed, and being able to 2hko some of the bulkiest walls in the tier. these three traits made aero literally the best wallbreaker/revenge killer/stallbreaker in the tier. with one set. other then wasting a mega evolution, there was no downsides to using aero. as nomatter what the issue was, aero had a way to either cripple it heavily for teammates within a short amount of turns, or just get rid of it in general. head smashes recoil didnt matter much when landorus and skarm could both be taken out of the picture for your teammates to capitalize on. it allready did its job.and possibly can still take down a mon or two once the abformentioned mons were gone later on.

basically, mega aero is:
near unwallable
super hard to revenge kill even with scarfers and priority
is easy to splash on teams given you dont need a mega.(and even if you did, it was hard to justify using it over aero)
these are the aspects that made aero broken.

thundurus is a bit of a different boat. but basically its similar to aero except a bit more complicated in that it relys on setting up on walls and outlasting them with O-wing and taunt, rather then outright breaking them. alongside its natural advantage over offense due to thunderus being a good offensive utilitymon, good stab coverage, and access to nasty plot, and priority taunt/twave to shut down sweepers. it sat at a good speed tier too. which didnt help its case. im a bit less educated on this one, but eh.
 
Thundurus was banned because it practically invalidated stall all by itself while maintaining an excellent matchup against balance and offensive archetypes. It's main set:

Code:
Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Nasty Plot
- Oblivion Wing
- Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Thunder Wave / It really doesn't matter
has very few defensive checks that fit on stall (mainly SpD Sylveon and Diancie, which is pretty awful). Most passive would-be checks, like Chansey and Unaware Clefable, are just setup fodder because of Taunt. And any chip damage is nullified completely by Oblivion Wing. It also just rolls through teams that are slower than it and lack priority, making it an amazing wincon.

As if this weren't enough, literally everything that could switch into the aforementioned set it got easily 2hko'd by this set or some wombo combo mixture of the two:

Code:
Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Superpower
- Dragon Ascent
- Knock Off
Sylveon gets OHKO'd by bolt strike, Diancie can't take both 2 Bolt Strikes and 2 Tbolts, TTar gets OHKO'd by superpower, Heatran can't take a +2 Tbolt or Focus Blast reliably and really hates superpower, Rhyperior can't deal with Focus Blast, Raikou gets 2hko'd by every move, Thundy-T gets 2hko'd by DA and Knock Off, Jolteon gets OHKO'd after rocks by Superpower, etc.

Also, due to the nature of its typing, it was basically a free switch into common pokemon like Landorus, Scizor, and Ferrothorn (bar spore).

The long and short of it is that there aren't defensive answers to Thundy, and that's a problem when it has 111 speed and prankster twave to keep offensive pokemon at bay.
 
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also, mega aero held a great offensive niche in resisting fakespeed and outspeeding mega lopunny. there was little reason not to run it since dragon ascent crumbled everything.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So I guess that now we are talking about how Mega Aerodatyl was so broken in the pervious meta, I believe this would be a perfect time to bring up its base form and what affects it has on the meta currently. The set specifically...



Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail / Pursuit

So Choice Band Aerodactyl is quite a common threat on the high ladder and in tournament play during room tours due to its ability to spam high base power moves with minimal drawbacks coming off its incredibly high Attack stat when paired with a Choice Band. Its Speed also is quite amazing for it as it is able to outspeed most relevant offensive wallbreakers that would threaten to revenge kill it otherwise and proceed to KO them with the appropriate move. Many common physical walls such as Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Slowbro, etc all just get 2HKOed by this monster, which really limits counterplay against it (often leading to sacc wars). Another key component that boasts its threatening presence is its key resistance to Normal-type FakeSpeed, which is so important as most teams often rely on revenge killers such as Ursaring and Stoutland to KO setup sweepers/wallbreakers, which Aerodactyl becomes an exception to. Now like with every threat it does have its flaws with its weakness to SR limiting the amount of times it could switch in and its rather poor defenses making it unable to take powerful neutral or supper-effective hits all to well.

I wanted to bring this up as many of the reasons that made Mega Aerodactyl broken could also be applied to Regular Aerodactyl currently imo.

Also Sylveon is still annoying af when paired with Dugtrio my lord.
 
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drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Bad STABmons
the STABy sensation that's gripping the nation
Eevee General said I could do something like this kind of so don't yell at me
What is Bad STABmons?
No it's not STABmons played badly. Bad STABmons is essentially STABmons with an extended banlist, most definingly all Pokemon with a BST of greater than or equal to 450. That is, only Pokemon with 449 BST or below are legal.

BANLIST:
All Pokemon with a BST>449
Sableye
Chatter (even on Chatot)
Huge Power / Pure Power
All Megas (Audino-Mega, Beedrill-Mega, Medicham-Mega)

Where does this idea come from?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-bad-stabmons-tour-won-by-lax.3572448/
So blame Eevee General

Some Threats to look out for:


Bibarel @ Leftovers / Life Orb / Silk Scarf / Lum Berry
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Water Shuriken
- Fake Out / Baton Pass / Crabhammer / Head Charge / Return / Milk Drink / Grass Knot

Bibarel is one of the most potent threats to InfernapeTropius11 in the meta as it stands. By reaching +4 in one turn Bibarel can act as a great sweeper, cleaner, and with Extreme Speed revenge killer. The last move slot is up for preference, but i find that Fake Out is the best option for general utility and Baton Pass can turn other mons on your team into deadly threats. The others tend to be more niche, with Grass Knot for instance only finding a home because of the existence of Quagsire.

Check and Counters:

Quagsire takes on all non Grass Knot variants of Bibarel with ease, thanks to unaware. It's also a nice stop to most Baton Pass receivers.


Ferroseed can take on Bibarel unless its at +6 and has either a boosting item or Head Charge / Crabhammer. King's Shield is especially nasty because of simple, Iron Barbs damage and Leech Seed damage can wear down Bibarel quickly.

Faster Fakespeed
A lot of things can outspeed and Fakespeed Bibarel. Guts Swellow is one example that can kill without leaving itself open to retaliation.

Frillish
Is probably bad, but is such a hardwall, even to Grass Knot varients.

Bibarel @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Acupressure
- Baton Pass
- Extreme Speed
- Milk Drink

This is another Bibarel set that is bad but I love. Get some hax.


Fletchinder is very versatile in Bad STABmons. It can go either physical or special, with a possibility of bulkier sets in the mix. Because of it's access to Normal type moves, it can use Judgement to nullify a would-be counter. It's stats are also pretty good for Bad STABmons, with only it's speed being a disappointment compared to how Talonflame functions in higher tiers. Of course not everything is peachy for Fletchinder, as Stealth Rock still limits its switching opportunities considerably. Hazard control is, as always, a must.

Fletchinder @ Meadow Plate / Eviolite
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Searing Shot / Blue Flare
- Judgment / U-turn
- Roost

Fletchinder @ Eviolite / Meadow Plate
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- V-create
- Extreme Speed / Judgement
Is this set even good? (Fletchinder) @ Eviolite
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Oblivion Wing
- Searing Shot


Checks and Counters
Reliably? Honestly I'm not even sure, and welcome suggestions. Here are some that work for specific sets, mostly ones without Meadow Plate Judgement.


Honestly this thing checks like the entire non-grass meta except for like, Fraxure. I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much. Dies to Meadow Plate Judgement.


Pupitar really appreciates Shed Skin for getting rid of burns, and tanks all of Fletchinder's STABs like a champ. Dies to Meadow Plate Judgement.


Takes on the special sets like a boss.


I don't know how I forgot about this guy first time around, but Magcargo is probably the single best counter to Fletchinder. While Fletchinder can run Judgement to hit Magcargo, it's really not worth it in general and probably safe to assume it's not running Water or Ground, because Quagsire is much more omnipresent than Magcargo and taking it out generally more important for the team as a whole.




Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge / Rock Slide
- Swords Dance / Substitute / Stealth Rock

Marowak's access to Thick Club makes it onee of the strongest pokemon in the meta, and I have yet to find anything stronger sithout being locked into a move (I'm sure someone, probably bp scrub, will come along and say no you're wrong though). To put this into perspective

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

that's an easy 2hko on on of the metas bulkiest walls.

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 159-187 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Check and Counters
What CAN wall it? Well with Swords Dance a tentative nothing? Without Swords Dance Gligar actually manages it even once it's Eviolite is knocked off, although Double Edge can be a pain.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 144-170 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

Gligar

As mentioned above, Gligar's typing and phenomenal bulk makes it perfect for this.

Burns
Marowak hates burns, and HATES Scald / Steam Eruption

Servine

Servine can switch in, outspeed, and OHKO, even if Marowak invests in HP. See below your worst case scenario;
252 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Marowak: 314-372 (96.9 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Fast special attackers



Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Spore / Glare
- Hidden Power Rock / Fire / Leech Seed
- Substitute / Glare

Servine acts just like Serperior in higher tiers, but with worse coverage (no Dragon Pulse). It's really nice because its a set up sweeper that steamrolls Quagsire, can sleep threats to your team, and can smack Ferroseed or Fletchinder and the Bug / Flying types with Hidden Power coverage. Leaf Storm is all it really needs.

Checks and Counters:

Even with Hidden Power Rock Servine can't really attempt to sweep while Fletchinder is around. Fletchinder can slaughter Servine with a well-placed priority flying move. Watch out for Spore or Hidden Power Rock on the switch in!


Huge Power is banned, but aqua rabbit lives on! The hardest counter to Servine thanks to Sap Sipper, fearing only lots of bs parahax from Glare. Azumarill has nice bulk for the meta and gains recovery, so it shouldnt be that easy to wear down for random Hidden Powers to take it down, especially because Servine can't boost on it.


A nice check that fears Hidden Power Fire. Can use Toxic and Gyro Ball to great effect, and appreciates not being able to be slept.


Fast mons that can hit Servine super effectively. Guts Swellow is notable for being able to status absorb too. Ponyta is another, but is weak to status.




So I'm tired and done with threats for now! I'll add more, including some defensive ones!
On my list:
Quagsire, Audino, Fraxure, Swellow, and Servine (Servine is so good oml if Linda wasn't also god tier it would be so borked)

Also Togetic, Doublade, and possibly Frogadier, although I don't have much experience with based frog.

What do you think will be a threat in Bad STABmons / what mons and sets do you look forward to using? How do you think it differs from normal STABmons in terms of what it's like to play and metagame trends etc.? What will this meta do without Pixispeed?
 
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InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Bad STABmons
the STABy sensation that's gripping the nation
Eevee General said I could do something like this kind of so don't yell at me
What is Bad STABmons?
No it's not STABmons played badly. Bad STABmons is essentially STABmons with an extended banlist, most definingly all Pokemon with a BST of greater than or equal to 450. That is, only Pokemon with 449 BST or below are legal.

BANLIST:
All Pokemon with a BST>449
Sableye
Chatter (even on Chatot)
Huge Power / Pure Power
All Megas (Audino-Mega, Beedrill-Mega, Medicham-Mega)

Where does this idea come from?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-bad-stabmons-tour-won-by-lax.3572448/
So blame Eevee General

Some Threats to look out for:

Bibarel @ Leftovers / Life Orb / Silk Scarf / Lum Berry
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Water Shuriken
- Fake Out / Baton Pass / Crabhammer / Head Charge / Return / Milk Drink / Grass Knot

Bibarel is one of the most potent threats to InfernapeTropius11 in the meta as it stands. By reaching +4 in one turn Bibarel can act as a great sweeper, cleaner, and with Extreme Speed revenge killer. The last move slot is up for preference, but i find that Fake Out is the best option for general utility and Baton Pass can turn other mons on your team into deadly threats. The others tend to be more niche, with Grass Knot for instance only finding a home because of the existence of Quagsire.

Check and Counters:

Quagsire takes on all non Grass Knot variants of Bibarel with ease, thanks to unaware. It's also a nice stop to most Baton Pass receivers.


Ferroseed can take on Bibarel unless its at +6 and has either a boosting item or Head Charge / Crabhammer. King's Shield is especially nasty because of simple, Iron Barbs damage and Leech Seed damage can wear down Bibarel quickly.

Faster Fakespeed
A lot of things can outspeed and Fakespeed Bibarel. Guts Swellow is one example that can kill without leaving itself open to retaliation.

Bibarel @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Acupressure
- Baton Pass
- Extreme Speed
- Milk Drink

This is another Bibarel set that is bad but I love. Get some hax.


Fletchinder is very versatile in Bad STABmons. It can go either physical or special, with a possibility of bulkier sets in the mix. Because of it's access to Normal type moves, it can use Judgement to nullify a would-be counter. It's stats are also pretty good for Bad STABmons, with only it's speed being a disappointment compared to how Talonflame functions in higher tiers. Of course not everything is peachy for Fletchinder, as Stealth Rock still limits its switching opportunities considerably. Hazard control is, as always, a must.

Fletchinder @ Meadow Plate / Eviolite
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Searing Shot / Blue Flare
- Judgment / U-turn
- Roost

Fletchinder @ Eviolite / Meadow Plate
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- V-create
- Extreme Speed / Judgement
Is this set even good? (Fletchinder) @ Eviolite
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Oblivion Wing
- Searing Shot


Checks and Counters
Reliably? Honestly I'm not even sure, and welcome suggestions. Here are some that work for specific sets, mostly ones without Meadow Plate Judgement.


Honestly this thing checks like the entire non-grass meta except for like, Fraxure. I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much. Dies to Meadow Plate Judgement.


Pupitar really appreciates Shed Skin for getting rid of burns, and tanks all of Fletchinder's STABs like a champ. Dies to Meadow Plate Judgement.


Takes on the special sets like a boss.


So I'm tired and done with threats for now! I'll add more, including some defensive ones!
On my list:
Quagsire, Audino, Marowak, Fraxure, Swellow, and Servine (Servine is so good oml if Linda wasn't also god tier it would be so borked)

What do you think will be a threat in Bad STABmons / what mons and sets do you look forward to using? How do you think it differs from normal STABmons in terms of what it's like to play and metagame trends etc.? What will this meta do without Pixispeed?
Togetic is good too due to good bulk and NP + OWing to be a wincon. Magcargo also counters most fletchinder, as does corsola. Murkrow and Liepard are also pretty good. And how could you forget based frog ;_; and Doublade is also a force if you remove Quagsire. Rufflet also hits like a fucking truck lmao. Bad stabmons actually has quite a bit of diversity and powerful mons, with birdspam being a very effective playstyle still (Toge, Murkrow, Fletch, Rufflet, etc.). Seems unusual, but it's quite interesting and fun to play :)
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Hey thanks The Ruins of Alpha for spotlighting Bad STABmons! I really enjoy this format and I'll share my feelings on viability below.

Overall, Bad STABmons is much kinder to other playstyles. Stall, semi-stall, and bulky offense are way better here, while hyper offense is nerfed to an extent because there are some really potent defensive cores that can be difficult to break if you don't prepare.

I'll just kinda list what I think are top offensive & defensive threats with some arbitrary pseudo rank attached to them.

In order of BST:

Offense


One of my favorite Pokemon in this format, Doublade sports a fantastic typing and a behemoth Defense with Eviolite and as such it's one of the best FakeSpeed checks, but it's primarily used as an offensive threat. With the No Guard ability, Doublade has a perfectly accurate STAB Iron Tail with a cool 30% chance to drop the target's Defense, which puts pressure on walls. It also usually carries Sacred Sword and Shadow Sneak and the last slot can be Swords Dance, Pursuit, Gear Grind, Bullet Punch, King's Shield, or Shadow Claw.
==Probable Rank==> A


Kecleon sports a solid base 90 Attack and access to a lot of priority, which mitigates that awful Speed. Generally it's used as a FakeSpeeder but what sets it apart from things like Rufflet and Raticate is its access to STAB Knock Off to punish Doublade, STAB Fire Punch to hit Ferroseed, and STAB Ice Punch to savage Gligar. While it can't run them all with FakeSpeed, it can cater its set based on your team needs quite well, making it extremely versatile.
==Probable Rank==> A/A+


Rotom is one of the faster attackers in the metagame, tying with threats such as Murkrow and Chatot, the latter of which it checks well, or outspeeding everything with a Scarf attached, which allows it to revenge the plethora of birds in the tier. Most notably it provides a fast answer to Rufflet and unlike Doublade can keep up the momentum for your team quite well. Besides running Scarf it does double status + Hex well.
==Probable Rank==> B+/A-


Sneasel is basically doing what Weavile does in regular STABmons with a notable buff in Speed, as it's the third fastest Pokemon after Swellow and Dugtrio (and ties with Persian but no one besides wishes uses that). Any combination of Knock Off, Icicle Crash, Ice Shard, Pursuit, Parting Shot, Swords Dance, and Low Kick work. Use it to revenge birds and Rotom and to scare off Doublade and Gligar.
==Probable Rank==> A-


One of the best wallbreakers in the format, Hustle Zweilous hits really, really hard. Usually carrying a Choice Band or running Eviolite to ease setup with Dragon Dance, it's truly a threat to watch out for, as not much in the metagame can stomach its Dark / Dragon STAB and Superpower. It doesn't even need a move for Fairies because most of the time the raw power of its attacks allows it to muscle past them regardless. It's held back by a bad base 58 Speed, but with +1 under its belt, it can actually outspeed a fair amount of Pokemon.
==Probable Rank==> B+


Bad STABmon's "Ursaring", if only because of Guts. The nice thing about this FakeSpeeder is its access to U-turn to pivot out of Gligar, Doublade, and Ferroseed. It hits a tad bit weaker than Guts Swellow but it isn't held back by a crippling Stealth Rock weakness, which for FakeSpeeders, is a real pain.
==Probable Rank==> B+


Servine is identical to its evolved counterpart in every way with the exception of a worse Speed tier. Still, 83 is usable. Like Serperior, Servine spams Contrary Leaf Storm and uses Spore to disable its checks and counters. It doesn't have Dragon Pulse, but it doesn't really need it. The choice between Hidden Power usually falls down to Fire for Ferrothorn or Rock for Togetic and Fletchinder. It's fairly one-dimensional but don't underestimate it in the slightest.
==Probable Rank==> A


Chatot is one of the few viable Boomburst spammers in the format, which is a nice change of pace for players annoyed by the prevalence of Sylveon in regular STABmons. In Bad STABmons, Chatot acts like a pseudo Thundurus with a set of Taunt, Nasty Plot, Boomburst, and Oblivion Wing. There's also Heat Wave for coverage but that's really only needed for Doublade and a +2 Oblivion Wing is still going to do a large chunk. Substitute sets can work without Boomburst or a Choiced set with Hurricane in there somewhere. Remember: Chatter is banned, even on Chatot.
==Probable Rank==> A-


Don't laugh but Pupitar is a potent threat if you underestimate its potential. While its defensive merits look appealing, what makes it scary is access to Dragon Dance, Rest, Diamond Storm, and Precipice Blades and the ability Shed Skin while holding an Eviolite. Rock typing ensures it can't be revenged by FakeSpeed easily if at all. It also makes a nice offensive hazard stacker. With Rest it's probably the best Fletchinder counter out there.
==Probable Rank==> B/B+


RoA already mentioned how dangerous Bibarel is but it bears repeating. If the opponent doesn't have a Ferroseed, Quagsire, Shedinja, or Doublade or their own faster FakeSpeeder, it might as well be GG. Bibarel can run a 4th move to beat all those checks, however: Superpower, Grass Judgment, Pluck, Ghost/Ground Judgment, and Protect. Besides Swords Dance it also can run Curse, Growth, and Acupressure, making it hard to prepare for.
==Probable Rank==> BANNED


Combusken may be short on variety but what it does it does superbly well. A set of Protect / Swords Dance / V-create / High Jump Kick or Drain Punch threatens nearly every wall, leaving only Quagsire, Gligar, and Thick Fat Azumarill able to switch in safely. There's some wiggle room with things like Substitute, Baton Pass, and a less detrimental Fire STAB if necessary.
==Probable Rank==> A+/S


Dugtrio is the second fastest Pokemon and it's able to trap and eliminate a ton of threats for your team. It's very frail and prone to being revenged, but if it's able to remove an Audino or a weakened Quagsire, it's done its job. It can also throw out Spikes in between kills or from behind a sub, making it a good stacker too.
==Probable Rank==> A-/A


Don't let its low BST fool you: Frogadier is a top-metagame threat. It boasts a nice 97 Speed, allowing it to revenge kill a lot of the metagame quite comfortably. Access to moves such as Steam Eruption, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Hidden Power Fire, and Grass Knot puts a ton of pressure on opposing teams. Plus it has utility moves such as Toxic Spikes and U-turn to abuse switches. It's really good but it can be held back by a lack of power, as 83 Special Attack isn't always enough to muscle past fatmons like Audino and Togetic.
==Probable Rank==> A+


Bad STABmons' other Thundurus, Murkrow can use its Taunt + Nasty Plot set to shut down stall teams with ease and plow through them with Oblivion Wing and Dark Pulse or Night Daze. And in true Thundurus fashion, Murkrow also has the potential to be wholly physical too with Dragon Ascent and Knock Off. Prankster is typically preferred so it can Parting Shot and Taunt with priority, but Insomnia is a viable option to check Servine.
==Probable Rank==> B+/A-


While Togetic excels at playing support roles, it's also a huge offensive threat you have to watch out for. It has two very good abilities in Serene Grace and Super Luck and access to Nasty Plot, Oblivion Wing / Air Slash, and Moonblast plus Fire Blast for coverage. Thanks to the Eviolite item, it's absurdly bulky and can use that bulk to set up on most of the metagame with ease. It can even tank most FakeSpeed attempts and retaliate with a powerful move of its own.
==Probable Rank==> S


The format's best Belly Drummer, Munchlax is very similar to Snorlax but here it's even bulkier and harder to crack. Besides the common BellySpeed combo, Munchlax can also set up with Curse + Normal recovery move of choice or just use Swords Dance. Fire Punch is helpful to eliminate Ferroseed and Earthquake hits Doublade hard. As a standard FakeSpeeder it can run Pursuit to catch fleeing foes.
==Probable Rank==> A-


Another low BST, high viability Pokemon, Fletchinder is a standard on most teams and for good reason! STAB Dragon Ascent allows it to revenge kill a lot of the frail offensive threats in the metagame and unlike some other birds it has a SE STAB to punish Doublade with. Sacred Fire makes for a solid secondary attack, but some even go full-blown V-create for wallbreaking. Swords Dance turns it into a formidable sweeper and Taunt with or without Will-O-Wisp helps it break down walls such as Quagsire and Gligar that try to check it.
==Probable Rank==> A+


It's not a common sight but Cranidos is a real terror that can take a lot of people off guard, especially when its equipped with a Choice Scarf. Diamond Storm gets the boost from Sheer Force, making it slightly weaker than Head Smash but without that nasty recoil and with better accuracy. Fire Punch, Earthquake, and Pursuit or even Ice Beam are options to round out its arsenal. But really, it just spams Diamond Storm.
==Probable Rank==> B+


Hustlet is the most unreliable revenge killer in Bad STABmons but it's also the strongest by far. When it does hit, things die. FakeSpeed is its bread and butter, plus it's got Dragon Ascent, Superpower, and Shadow Claw to round out coverage. If it's not running FakeSpeed, it probably has a Choice Band, which does the same as FakeSpeed but all in one turn instead of two, thus limiting Leftovers recovery and ignoring Protect's attempt to burn Fake Out.
==Probable Rank==> A


Defense


Liepard isn't a wall by any means, but it's a valuable utility Pokemon thanks to Prankster Parting Shot, Taunt, and Thunder Wave. And while Murkrow can do these things too and has solid recovery, Liepard doesn't take as much Stealth Rock damage, hits a bit harder, and doesn't rely on its item nearly as much. It has a good mixture of offense and utility, but it's the utility that most people use it for.
==Probable Rank==> A-


Bad STABmon's pink blob. Audino is really good here with its unrivaled natural bulk on both defenses and the ability Regenerator, which allows it to pass Wishes or utilize Baton Pass extremely well. (Think of Stockpile or Swords Dance stuff.) It can't do much back but at least Boomburst has a high base power. Other utility options include Glare, Heal Bell, Toxic, Rapid Spin, and Knock Off.
==Probable Rank==> A/A+


Quagsire alone invalidates so many physical threats that it should always be considered when building a well-rounded Bad STABmons team. You'll often see it with a status move like Toxic or Scald (or both), Recover, Ground coverage, and then maybe Spikes, Protect, or even Curse. It's boring. It's predictable. But you have to plan for it somehow or you won't get anywhere in this format.
==Probable Rank==> A+/S


Gligar is a lot like Landorus-T here and often runs hazard support sets with either Defog or Stealth Rock / Spikes. Roost ensures it can stick around to wall physical attackers throughout the match and U-turn helps it keep up the momentum. Flying STAB is rare but Earthquake or even Precipice Blades give it an offensive bite when needed. Immunity keeps it free of Poison, but Toxic isn't too common except on other walls, which it can't really beat.
==Probable Rank==> A-/A


As Huge Power is banned, Azumarill must run either Sap Sipper or Thick Fat, and both abilities are good for this format. Sap Sipper lets it wall all variants of Servine and Ferroseed while spinning any hazards. With Thick Fat it can stomach Combusken's onslaught and tank all of Sneasel's attacks with ease. Water / Fairy / Normal moves grants it access to a list of goodies such as the aforementioned Rapid Spin plus Recover, Heal Bell, Glare, Baton Pass, Scald, and other standbys like Knock Off.
==Probable Rank==> B/B+


Sure, it can be a special sweeper, but it's unmatched when it comes to defensive support due to its amazing defensive typing and huge bulk with Eviolite. Defog, Roost, Moonblast, and a filler move such as Oblivion Wing or Thunder Wave is a pretty standard set. It pairs excellently with Quagsire, taking any Grass moves directed toward Quagsire and sending Rock, Electric, Poison, and Steel back. TogeSire can be quite hard to crack and forms probably the best defensive core in all of Bad STABmons.
==Probable Rank==> S


Porygon is another pre-evo that functions quite similarly to its evolved form. Like Porygon2, Porygon can abuse Download + Baton Pass well and even take advantage of the boosts for itself with Boomburst and Extreme Speed. It will have Recover to stay around longer and sometimes Glare to slow things down to a more manageable speed.
==Probable Rank==> B+/A-


With its Steel typing, Mawile makes an excellent Bird check, and now has Moonlight to regain health throughout the match. Stealth Rock is pretty common on any Mawile set to keep those pesky birds at bay even more and if needed it can attack with moves such as Play Rough and Gear Grind.
==Probable Rank==> B+


There are other good Grass Pokemon capable of playing supportive roles such as Tangela, Foongus, and Pumpkaboo, but with Ferroseed around, there's really no point in using them because Ferroseed offers so much utility in one Pokemon. It has access to two hazards plus Leech Seed to dissuade switch-ins. King's Shield or Spiky Shield help it water down foes or ramp up the chip damage, respectively. When it comes to attacking Ferroseed is weak, but Gyro Ball can be used to punish faster foes such as Servine, which otherwise has little to fear from Ferroseed.
==Probable Rank==> A


Shedinja can be dead weight if not played correctly, but with the right support it can shut down a ton of threats all by itself. Unfortunately most of the offensive threats listed above have moves that hit through Wonder Guard so in some matches it's relegated to just checking FakeSpeed. It makes a nice hazard stacker with Sticky Web and Spikes and can spread burns and pivot out of trouble with Baton Pass.
==Probable Rank==> B-/B


There are lots of other viable threats, both offensive and defensive, that aren't covered above. Some include Tinted Lens Noctowl, Swellow, Simple Swoobat, Magcargo, Sheer Force Croconaw, Mantyke, Corsola, Clamperl, Yanma, Lickitung, Krokorok, and Pawniard (and more!). This format is still really unexplored, so if you ever want to try it out, join the Neon Town room on Pokemon Showdown!
 
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