Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

[Lcass4919]

i personally don't think aerodactyl needs a ban (mega I mean) because sure it can break stall but not enough to help you win the match because imagine switching a chansey in on a head smash, with rocks up. The chansey probably wouldn't even die, as well as the HUGE recoil from head smash plus rocks will take maero down to about 85 percent of its health, maybe even less. That's one mon broken down, but would that be enough to affect the game or break the team? If it is a well built team then no, probably not. mega aero also takes up a mega slot meaning your mega could be gone in 2-3 turns as well as having a rocks weakness. is it really worth sacrificing a mega slot for 3 turns of profit. once again no. so don't ban mega aero. Btw Eevee General when you said rip holes in the opponents team are you sure you didn't mean, rip a hole then die, in a team?

your acting like head smash is a explosion clone, when trust me it isnt, uninvested aero can fire head smash twice on two full hp mons before going down (301, so if someone has 400 hp(base 100 fully invested), and you ohko it, you take 200 damage in return (more then half, nowhere near enough to pose a threat, especially when stuff aero wants to hit has less then 90 hp 70% of the time.)

Lcass Note:(ok, here comes a bit of a lot of sarcasm, im only warning you because i noticed this might be taken a bit harsh, but i've explained why i used such a tone down below, so please just bear with me here and dont take any of this personally)

and i mean, its not like mega aero cant...idk roost up after fireing a head smash against stall right? its not like landorus, skarm, chansey, etc aren't pressed to switch out of it/ recover against it or anything right? but mega aero cant learn roost right? and dragon ascent, man, that move is pretty bad anyways. its only what...a 120 base power move boosted by tough claws on a 145 attacking mon backed by 150 speed that when uninvested outspeeds positive ~130's or anything right? its not like mega aero threatens offense just as badly right? its not like the ENTIRE OFFENSIVE METAGAME fears it right? after all, it just has unblockable nuke hits and blazing fast speed no pokemon without a choice item and over 80 speed can rival right? whats defog? whats rapid spin? nothing gets that in this meta. what? mega aero pressures EVERY hazard setter?

yeah, mega aerodactyl is fine its only proven to heavily pressure stall and offense warrenting its ban before. nbd. head smash lowers its hp! its perfectly fine in the meta! its a suicidal nuke because its always using head smash! even when its more optimal to fire a dragon acent on the switchin to guarentee 2hkos! chansey is a switchin too, because head smash (which its oh so pressured to use ALL the time) hits chansey and immidiately results in its fainting (it actually does btw lmao) and its not like losing chansey isnt a HUGE issue for stall or anything right? silly mega aerodactyl. only helping every special attacker on your team clean up. you really need to pull your weight buddy. gotta 2hko/ohko the rest of the stall team too.

ok seriously. as baconbagon mentioned, and i mentioned, your argument has more holes in it then the ones mega aero pokes into teams. im sorry for using such a sarcastic way to get that across, but its almost like...you haven't used/seen it in action at all... just like everyone else arguing for keeping it in, and i cant stress this enough: If you haven't used mega aero in stabmons, or battled one and seen it in action, you really shouldn't post your opinion until you do so.

i know i quit the council, but i feel like this is second hand knowledge, and since nobody has said this, im going too. and again, sorry if i was a bit too sarcastic, or if you have used it. just your entire post sounds very "i'm assuming" rather then "from what i've seen".

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

A lot of you are looking at M-Aero wrong, IMO. The fact that there are like 1.5 viable defensive answers to it isn't the point, and doesn't necessarily make it unique or broken right now. There are a whopping 0 stall teams that you will hit on the ladder, and if being relatively unwallable were enough to ban a pokemon then M-Altaria would be gone already (as only M-Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Porygon2 deal with it on the defensive side).

The problem with M-Aero is that it breaks OFFENSE and BALANCE as well as stall. It's the fastest pokemon in the metagame and it has a normal resistance. This leaves offense with ~5 options to actually take it down:

1. Let it take out 2-3 pokemon on your team and pray that it doesn't have Roost (this seems to be the most popular one)
2. Bullet Punch M-Scizor
3. FakeSpeed Mega Altaria (ESpeed won't get the job done, it needs Fake Out as well)
4. Ice Shard KyuB
5. Choice Scarf ____ (this is the most reliable)
6. Hope the opponent lets it get burned or para'd

I think this is unacceptable because none of the blanket physical walls can contain this pokemon and nothing on balance or offense can switch into it. Usually the faster a pokemon is, the easier it is to wall and the weaker it is to priority. M-Aero is not reasonably wallable and resists the most common priority in the tier.

The reason that people are making a case that it breaks stall is because it so clearly wrecks offense and balance. It's on the short list of monstrous wallbreakers and it has 150 SPEED! That screams broken to me, but I guess one of it's moves being 80% reliable and having recoil makes this OK.

 

[EV]

Mega Aerodactyl, King's Rock, and Razor (Claw or Fang idr) are under quick suspect.

 

[thesecondbest]

Razor Fang is the one
I think King's Rock and Razor Fang should certainly be banned even without playing much stabmons because you literally cannot counter them without running an inner focus lucario. It detracts skill from the game. Even if it's shit, it only fosters uncompetitive strategies and thus makes the tier worse with its presence. (I also think sand veil and snow cloak should be banned too but I guess that's another matter)

 

[dusk raimon]

The reason evasion moves are banned are because they detract skill from the metagame, and king's rock is much the same, even if it never flinches, ever, for me -_-. But even the fact that people base their whole team on, and around, needing a flinch is just absurd. So if evasion moves are banned (which they are) kings rock needs to be banned too.

 

[Lcass4919]

The reason evasion moves are banned are because they detract skill from the metagame, and king's rock is much the same, even if it never flinches, ever, for me -_-. But even the fact that people base their whole team on, and around, needing a flinch is just absurd. So if evasion moves are banned (which they are) kings rock needs to be banned too.

i think the thing with confusion, hax, and whatnot, is it has to have a "-and thensome" to it for it to be banworthy. sure, kings rock cloyster without priority is pretty mediocre...and so is prankster confuse ray, and 100% confuse move locked to a specific ability and 8 pp making it horribly distributed (dynamic punch), and regular flatter...but priority 50% flinch(kings rock with skill link water shuriken), confusion that increases confusion damage (swagger) and 100% confuse on an attacking move with no downsides(chatter) have all been deemed broken because they have something ELSE to them to add onto it to help them do broken stuff easier. Kings rock cloyster isnt broken because of flinching alone, its because it has priority, and thus, has a way around its would be checks/methods of stopping it. and since kings rock cloy shuriken is such a complex thing to ban outright, i say kings rock is probably the "most expendable" out of the three. as we have deemed it before. so yeah, ban kings rock

as for aero, ive summed up my opinion already.

tldr: ban all three because priority 50% flinch is ridiculous and im too lazy to restate my opinion on aero.

 

[Funbot28]

Guess will leave some of my opinions...

/

Razor Fang and King's Rock:
These items really promote an unhealthy presence on the meta atm, heavily relying on RNG to be effective. The priority Waster Shuriken receives coupled with the +2 Attack and Speed from Shell Smash just add to the OPness of this "strategy". Most of the time when dealing with Cloyster, the only way I am able to deal with it is either priority or revenge killing it with a faster mon (even though, Water Shuriken has that priority). It can give the "weaker" player the opportunity of winning purely based on luck and not skill. It reminds me of Swagger, and should honestly be banned.

Mega Aerodactyl:
There is no doubt that Mega Aero is a huge threat in the current meta, Tough Claws boosted Head Smash (although I believe Diamond Storm is the better option) and Dragon's Ascent practically 2HKO the entire tier. However, this is quite similar for several other threats in the STABmons meta due to the offensive nature it always seems to inherent no matter what the change. A prime example of this is the "FakeSpeed" combo that dominates currently, Mega Aero has a difficult time taking Pixilated boosted Espeeds from Mega Altaria and even resisted ones from Diggersby due to it's subpar defenses. Since the meta applies so much offensive pressure, Mega Aero finds it quite difficult to switch in and usually relies from a sacked mon to come in. Although these claims can apply to the majority of offensive mons in the meta, Mega Aero's somewhat limited coverage and reliance on "negative effect" moves capitalize on these weaknesses. People have mentione it's checks and counters so I won't go there (key ones in Klefki and Physically defensive Rotom-W). I feel Mega Aero adds a positive impact to the meta, dealing with offesnive teams that seem to infest the ladder with it's amazing speed, but it can be shut down with priority and bulky walls with recovery. I still can be swayed, but for now I am leaning towards it to remian unbanned.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

Uhhh... Rotom-W gets OHKO'd, so I don't know where you got the idea that it's a defensive check from, much less a counter:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 246-291 (81.1 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Klefki's one of 3 pokemon that checks M-Aero defensively (although it's hardly a counter). And that coupled with M-Aero's insane speed and rock typing is enough for a ban in my book. I'm not going to go over them again, but I think the calcs I've posted are enough of an argument as to why it should be banned. If you have 150 Speed and the only archetype that you're mildly afraid of is Offense, I think something is broken. It also has enough easy switchins between Diggs, Lando-T, and a few others that I don't think "it can't switch into anything" is a very relevant argument. In total, there is 1 defensive counter, 2-3 defensive checks depending on how relevant Bronzong and M-Steelix are to you, and ~4 offensive "checks" that aren't holding a scarf (M-Altaria, BP Scizor, Ice Shard KyuB, and Diggs & Co. if it's weakened), none of which can actually switch in once. I personally think that this list is too restrictive and leaves most teams susceptible to getting broken down by M-Aero for an easy sweep for one of its teammates.

The flinch items are silly, and I don't think anyone wants them around. This is an easy ban as well.

 

[Martin]

Plz if ur scared of head smash just run a core of helmet ferrothorn and helmet chomp ez
In all seriousness though, Mega Aerodactyl is just way too hard to take on for all archetypes in the current meta. Between its insane power/speed and it gaining access to a move with an effective 199 or 200 (unsure which) bp move before STAB which doesn't kill its user every time it is used is pretty freaking insane both on paper and in practice. The fact that it can basically OHKO everything barring Klefki on offense while still retaining the ability to fight is terrifying no matter how you put it, and its ability to literally heal it all off against more balanced/defensive builds makes it an overcentralising force to deal with. It has so few checks that it is just dumb to try and deal with, and its STAB combo allows it to break almost anything that Head Smash cannot in one swoop (no pun intended).

 

[EV]

Aerodactylite and those flinch items are now banned. Merry Christmas!

The Immortal

 

[Tanamon]

Man this is another awesome idea. I love how accessible showdown has made competitive playing

Now I just need to think of things that have great typings but don't usually get access to those move pools or things that change types and could have some cool hidden gems

 

[skies]

So what do you guys think of Dragon Ascent Mega Altaria? Lures in and smashes Mega Venusaur + Roserade, which would otherwise fair well versus it. Too niche of an option, or a reasonable lure?

 

[Lcass4919]

So what do you guys think of Dragon Ascent Mega Altaria? Lures in and smashes Mega Venusaur + Roserade, which would otherwise fair well versus it. Too niche of an option, or a reasonable lure?

very very niche tbh. allthough dacent DOES lure in venu and roserade, both are already pretty uncommon in the tier, and id rather lure in stuff like heatran, skarm, ferro, or landorus T(with boomburst), rather then 2 pokemon altaria rarely sees. remember, adding d-acent means you have to give up a 4th slot, which on paper doesn't seem too much, but in terms of "luring" just running fire blast+eq nets you the pokemon above, which are a LOT more problematic then 2 pokemon. especially when they are common sights. roserade also lacks the bulk to tank +2 EQ enless it runs max def, which is a terrible idea on roserade as it struggles with like, EVERY physical mon in the tier, and much prefers running spc def to potentially catch stuff that it can actually tank a hit from. and offensive roserade falls to espeed at +2(+2 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 235-277 (90 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)

id rather altaria fear things that arent common, then stuff like ferrothorn, landorus, heatran and skarmory tbh.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

Amoonguss is much more common than Roserade anyways. I've literally never seen a Roserade, but I've seen several Amoonguss.

Apparently last month there were 2 roserades at 1760 level.

 

[yoman5]

Gonna start getting back into this soon, as I want to know it for omgs and its starting to look more stable. With aero banned, what are the centralizing meta mons? Since keldeo is not banned, is keldeo+diggs still the insane offensive core it used to be? And has anyone experimented with the monster that is hoopa u yet? Sucker punch and psystrike are both potent options for a Mon with that much power.

 

[Josh]

what are the centralizing meta mons?

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

I think something needs to be done about M-Altaria and Diggersby. They're completely insane cleaners that can run through just about any 5-6 slightly weakened pokemon for free. They've been nerfed by setup moves being banned, but we've just also banned most of their offensive checks (M-Metagross/Aero respectively, and Dark Void Sableye for Diggs).

I don't know if that means banning Diggersby, Altarianite, Fake Out, ESpeed, the combo of Fake Out + ESpeed, or something else entirely.

I know EG probably doesn't want to ban Diggs + Altarianite, since that would leave us with a very similar banlist as last time, but I think that those bans were pretty legit, so I have no problem with that.

Banning Fake Out would make the two of them worse at revenge killing, but wouldn't keep them from cleaning. Banning ESpeed would do the opposite.

I don't think a more complex ban is a good idea, but it's certainly an option.


If these two are nerfed, I think that Shift Gear M-Scizor, NP Thundy, and DD KyuB are going to be on just about every team. The biggest thing holding back M-Scizor right now is that you can't have an Altaria on your team. And the only things holding back the other two are FakeSpeed.

 

[EV]

I keep getting interrupted but here it is.

Re-suspecting Boomburst.

 

[Lcass4919]

Please don't ban Boomburst. It's just really good, but not broken/overcentralizing. Mega Altaria/Sylveon/Porygon-Z is the only things that use it and are like... good with it. But Sylveon is outclassed by Mega Altaria, and it's not really overpowered. Meanwhile, it gives access to a nice STAB for things Porygno2/Mega Pidgeot. It's generally not broken in my opinion, since literally no Boomburst isn't resisted by Steel-type moves. It's not broken, just good. Please no ban.

you do realise you basically just said "dont ban boomburst because boomburst makes 3 mons op, and only makes almost every other pokemon that uses better.

in my opinion, any move that makes a pokemon with "good but not OUTSTANDING" offenses capable of 2hkoing ferrothorn with MAX INVESTMENT at +1(!!!!!) even as a percentage chance is rediculous when theres no "penalty" to it.
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Meloetta Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 157-186 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
its banworthy as a move, because although under normal circumstances this wouldn't be a problem, this move has 0 repercussions, and has power rivaling hyper beam itself. and everyone who argues that "oh but rocks and steels resist it" don't realize that is false, as all you need is 1 calm mind on your belt before steels fall to the pressure boomburst brings.
oh...and just for refrence...
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 247-292 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 220-259 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
yeah. nothing too serious. but take note thats 150 special attack failing to deal more then 128 under the exact same conditions with a move thats considered to be quite strong and that at +2, chansey gets 2hkoed by a special move off 128. something even some ubers cant do. and yet, a pokemon with less special attack can now, all because its mastered the art of boombox. xerneas is sad.

 

[Martin]

Homestly, there is no reason to keep it legal and honestly its users won't miss it all that much if it goes because they can just move onto the next best thing (Techno Blast). The only drawback to it being gone is that you can't run Boomburst+Techno Blast Fire on Sylve, but that is such a niche reason that honestly I can't say that it is worth keeping just for that. Therefore, I think it should be banned.

 

[G-Luke]

As much as I would hate to see Boomburst go, it would effectively prevent two/three Pokémon bans.

Hey Eevee. This is from a fellow SD MAlt user. Just ban it. Im sorry. MAlt is broken no matter what. Bruh I understand why you h8 making a similar banlist, but its just broken.

And Ban Diggersby b4 Thousand Arrows comes out and RAPES everything.

In the meantime I'll bhee sweepin'!

 

[skies]

Boomburst is insanely powerful, but I believe its presence makes the metagame a more balanced for everyone.

On one hand, it gives defensive Pokemon [Porygon2, Meloetta, etc] a powerful option for hitting offensive Pokemon, thus preventing them from being fodders. On the other hand, offensive Pokemon will still inflict massive damage to other offensive Pokemon and gives them a solid tool to hit bulkier Pokemon with.

Boomburst has no drawbacks, and its power is very high. That is a fact. But is its presence negative? That's the question we should be asking. It does not break Mega Altaria, Porygon-Z, or Sylveon. Mega Altaria is debatably broken, and Boomburst isn't even on the most common set. Porygon-Z loves the move, and really makes it a threat to watch out for. However, it's obviously got flaws. Boomburst in its entirety is a broken move, but it does not break any Pokemon in the way that Shell Smash, Dark Void, and Geomancy did. Speaking of Geomancy, I feel that ban was too quick and with little discussion. Can we please revisit that since it really doesn't deserve the ban in my opinion.

Lcass4919 — why did you call Meloetta's stats "just" good? It has one of the highest SpA in the game. That's not fair, since it's SpA is already outstanding. Calm Mind is great and all, but it still leaves Meloetta with a poor Speed stat. Can you provide an example of something that is broken in all categories with Boomburst? Meloetta is not a good example of banning it in my opinion.

gamer boy — Why would Sylveon run that instead of Judgment? It's a bad set to use. Techno Blast is cute, but it's still just nerfing things that do not deserve the nerf.

 

[Martin]

Idk how I forgot Judgement existed... lol my bad.

 

[Lcass4919]

Boomburst is insanely powerful, but I believe its presence makes the metagame a more balanced for everyone.

On one hand, it gives defensive Pokemon [Porygon2, Meloetta, etc] a powerful option for hitting offensive Pokemon, thus preventing them from being fodders. On the other hand, offensive Pokemon will still inflict massive damage to other offensive Pokemon and gives them a solid tool to hit bulkier Pokemon with.

Boomburst has no drawbacks, and its power is very high. That is a fact. But is its presence negative? That's the question we should be asking. It does not break Mega Altaria, Porygon-Z, or Sylveon. Mega Altaria is debatably broken, and Boomburst isn't even on the most common set. Porygon-Z loves the move, and really makes it a threat to watch out for. However, it's obviously got flaws. Boomburst in its entirety is a broken move, but it does not break any Pokemon in the way that Shell Smash, Dark Void, and Geomancy did. Speaking of Geomancy, I feel that ban was too quick and with little discussion. Can we please revisit that since it really doesn't deserve the ban in my opinion.

Lcass4919 — why did you call Meloetta's stats "just" good? It has one of the highest SpA in the game. That's not fair, since it's SpA is already outstanding. Calm Mind is great and all, but it still leaves Meloetta with a poor Speed stat. Can you provide an example of something that is broken in all categories with Boomburst? Meloetta is not a good example of banning it in my opinion.

gamer boy — Why would Sylveon run that instead of Judgment? It's a bad set to use. Techno Blast is cute, but it's still just nerfing things that do not deserve the nerf.

i meant it as in meloettas stats are "good" but not "amazing" its perfectly natural for a 180 mon to break past resists. NOT for a 130. v-create is the ONLY other "Average" move able to do this, and v-create has a HUGE nerf in stats for its use.

i mean, no i cant, other then the "fabled three" but at the same logic. dark void isnt broken on pangoro, or the other dark types. so i call to you to show me a mon (barring the commonly mentioned) ones that is broken in "all aspects" with void and ill get back to you.

in all seriousness, lets not judge a move by the mons who learn it, and lets judge it by what the move does and what it does to the pokemon who utilize it. as every boomburster WOULDNT be even close to a threat without it. we are banning a move, not a pokemon. i dont need to prove a mon is broken with boomburst, i need to prove boomburst is broken on mons. which single handedly breaking 3 mons, sending every other user of it skyrocketing in variety, and on top of that having no serious downfalls is the argument i have provided, and telling me to name a mon is pointless when you didn't do that for dark void, belly drum, or any other move we banned previously. mostly because its irrelevant info, who cares if there isn't another "amazing utilizer" of it? theres still 3 mons ripping up the tier. and a few who's viability came out of nowhere (seriously, who would use meloetta if it wasnt for boomburst?) is that not enough to justify its ban? the move literally has no downsides, literally NONE and has a whopping 140 base power, 10 more then draco without the negative side effects, and similar resistances. as ive pointed out, even resists aren't safe if its able to get to +1 (by that logic even work up pidgeot (lmao) would be able to break steels with it at +2). and even if you mispredict, your not PUNISHED for it. rather, you are REWARDED with decent damage.

"naming another pokemon" completely derails from my point at hand, and only provides irrelevant info tbh.

what flaws does the move have? and not the abusers? resistances? break past most at +1, immunity? ok, it has 1 immunity. arguing that "it gives bulky pokemon a good offensive tool" isn't even a argument. because thats like saying "oh, giving all fighting types huge power is okay, because throh really needs the boost" no, thats no reason to keep something in.

speaking of dark void, as i mentioned above, for the other bans(barring shell smash) you ONLY looked at the broken abusers of the move(each had around three) instead of using this argument. boomburst is LITERALLY the same thing as dark void, breaking three mons (sableye, weavile, and idk, another dark type) while making otherwise mediocre options at least SOMEWHAT viable (pangoro, murkrow, etc) what makes boomburst different? it breaks 3 mons, while increasing the viability of otherwise mediocre ones.

 

[miltankmilk]

From where I sit, the mons that abuse boomburst and the reason we want it tested,(PZ, altaria, sylveon, etc), don't get noticeably worse with boomburst gone. Technoblast is almost as good, and unless your getting in a pp stall, its not going to really affect all that much. As unfixable has said, the upside it has of making other special attacking normal types more viable, especially defensive mons, is somewhat balancing to the metagame. If we want something done about malt,PZ