STABmons Viability Ranking

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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
LightningLuxray you disagreed with me but agreed with what i said, I think you are twisting my words.

Sableye has to be S rank. Why? What keeps stuff like DD kyurem-B and megachomp as well as tons of normal sweepers and things like BD diggersby in check? Its Sableye. there are so many potent setup sweepers atm that are checked so easily by prankster willowisp that it makes sableye such an easy patchup for any team wanting to have a way to check these sweepers.

Think about it this way: We know splitting S is useful, so what do we lose or risk in the process of doing it?
 
I never said it wasn't bad lmao, it's a fantastic Pokemon. I'm just saying that out of all S Rank Pokemon it would be the closest to A+ imo.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Holy shit can we talk more about Magnezone? Magnezone + Diggersby is so good it's not even funny - Head Charge Diggersby is really hard to switch into once you trap and kill Skarmory with Magnezone. Zone is at least a B- or C+ in my books. It also gets the neat King Shield + Doom Desire combo.

Also Lando-I is by far one of the best Pokemon in the tier. The versatility this thing brings to the table is insane - Sheer Force Hurricane hits like a truck, but my personal favorite set is the CM Oblivion Wing set. It's pretty good vs stall imo, especially vs Chansey as Oblivion Wing drains so much HP from Chansey. And hey, Magnezone is a good partner for Lando too because Skarmory is a really good answer to Lando-I. Something I want to try is Gravity Lando-I. Works similar to Smack Down Lando-I, but it has some things over it. The only thing Lando-I is really missing is Taunt imo - with Taunt it would be the best stall breakers in the tier.
 
LightningLuxray you disagreed with me but agreed with what i said, I think you are twisting my words.

Sableye has to be S rank. Why? What keeps stuff like DD kyurem-B and megachomp as well as tons of normal sweepers and things like BD diggersby in check? Its Sableye. there are so many potent setup sweepers atm that are checked so easily by prankster willowisp that it makes sableye such an easy patchup for any team wanting to have a way to check these sweepers.

Think about it this way: We know splitting S is useful, so what do we lose or risk in the process of doing it?
I'm not sure how I'm twisting your words, lol. I agree that splitting S-rank might be for the best. All I'm saying is don't say "Landorus may not be S because it doesn't make a playstyle unviable", which is what I got from your post.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post.
 
1 post, dont read me, im a nb

Jirachi A- > A+/S Rank

Jirachi is a great Shift Gear sweeper, with a 60% chance to flinch STAB Iron head, decent coverage(F/I/T Punch, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt). 100 speed is decent, good bulk and defensive typing, nothing more to say.
Calcs:
252 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 187-220 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 135-160 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-162445169
Also nub 1 post obviously ignore me
I agree whole heartedly, any time this thing comes out and I don't one hit it it always causes me problems be it parahaxing the poop outta my team or just ripping through it, It's something that an unprepared team will suffer greatly for not preparing for it. Doesn't that make it a defining threat in the meta? I agree A+ atleast, if not S.

Also, Chansey -> S rank. This thing is bar none the best Special wall in STABmons. It can run wish, aromatherapy, and spin support. Also, the Transform set with eviolite allows it to hard counter almost any Special sweepers set-up or not>Switch in> transform> hurt enemy team(unless they have a chansey lol.) Just the threat of Transform in general can be used to force moves and prevent people from setting up BD/SS in fear of their boosts being stolen which can lead to some serious mind games.
Edit: Chansey also can set up stealth rock and makes ample free turns to do so.

Also, I agree with the Idea of breaking up the S tier because there's def a divide in the current S-ranked mon Diggers and Sableye stand out among them period end of sentence. I also think there are a lot of threats worthy of being S-tier.
S+ -> Diggers, Sableye
S -> M-TTar, Tran
S- -> Lando, Jirachi, Chansey


Edit: Will post replays of evidence for jirachi and chansey just dont have any saved atm ^^
CHANSEY REPLAYS
Lol within five minutes of making this post
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-163335354
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Its been said already, jirachi is meh and tends to be easily beaten by good teams. It also serves one role and isint even the best at what it does as in many ways scizor is better.

Chansey is good, but it in no way defines the metagame. Its probably better in OU, where its definitely not S-rank.

S+ Sableye, Diggersby
S Landorus, maybe ttar
S- Heatran, maybe ttar

I see literally no reason not to do this.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
My personal S-Tier split would be:

S+ : Diggersby (duh)
S : Lando-I, Heatran, Sableye
S- : TTar

Maybe move Heatran or Sableye down to S-, but I feel this is accurate. Diggersby obvious S+ - best pokemon in the tier imo.
 
Its been said already, jirachi is meh and tends to be easily beaten by good teams. It also serves one role and isint even the best at what it does as in many ways scizor is better.

Chansey is good, but it in no way defines the metagame. Its probably better in OU, where its definitely not S-rank.

S+ Sableye, Diggersby
S Landorus, maybe ttar
S- Heatran, maybe ttar

I see literally no reason not to do this.
Chansey kinda does define this Meta game in that it's so Physically-attack based. Special attackers are pretty much obselete because of chansey. Also, I don't think the "Its probably better in OU" is a valid argument because this isn't OU and there's not much of a relation to how well a pokemon functions in OU in comparison to STABmons ie. Darkrai, Aegislash, MegaMawhile(Which is still banned for some reason?), Diggersby, etc. Anyway I think what make chansey so good is that it's an amazing wall AND it can potentially sweep via transform, it make having a special setup sweeper a liability. Even a CM lando has a hard time breaking it and gives up free turns against the almighty pink blob.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 266-316 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-307 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 387-458 (54.9 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, this is probably arrogant but I am ranked #1 on the STABmons ladder so, I think that makes my opinions a little more meaningful.
 
Poop, you're definitely right, Chansey is far and ahead with no doubts the best special wall in the tier. However thatdoesn't, nor should it automatically raise it to S rank. There's maybe 4 or 5 truly present offensive special mons in the tier right now, and chansey can reliably wall about 4 (doesn't appreciate keldeo secret swords), not fearing anything they want to do. But the physical bias in this tier is truly present, and having a chansey on your team means free switch ins for things like Aegislash, TTar, Cloyster, etc.

On the topic of S-rank and further re-ordering of the list, I really think it's fine as is. 5 is still a good size for S and doesn't stand out to me as needing to be reorganized, and the only one that I think MIGHT need to move down, is Mega TTar, since it still loses 1v1 to most Diggersby, given some prior damage, but it still is an amazing pokemon in the tier. And honestly, this threads been up for a long while now, and we've done a good job (I feel) that everything, for the most part, is where it should be that's already on the list. What I think we should be doing with this list at this point is to start discussing mons that should be on the list, but haven't been mentioned (like Magnezone for the past few days) and things on the list that haven't been discussed at all.

On the topic of Magnezone though, like The Reptile said, being able to core it with a Diggersby and just VoltTurn counters to death reminds me a bit like BW Genesect+Dugtrio for the month that it existed. I think it's as good, if not better than Scolipede, so please interpret that as you will.

Also where do you think Chandelure should fall in these tiers? It can be easily summarized as being the strongest special fire bar Charizard-y, as well as boasting the coveted espeed immunity and outspeeding Diggersby (by 2 base stats), but hampered by a ground weakness, little coverage, and low speed relative to the rest of the tier.
 
Poop, you're definitely right, Chansey is far and ahead with no doubts the best special wall in the tier. However thatdoesn't, nor should it automatically raise it to S rank. There's maybe 4 or 5 truly present offensive special mons in the tier right now, and chansey can reliably wall about 4 (doesn't appreciate keldeo secret swords), not fearing anything they want to do. But the physical bias in this tier is truly present, and having a chansey on your team means free switch ins for things like Aegislash, TTar, Cloyster, etc.

On the topic of S-rank and further re-ordering of the list, I really think it's fine as is. 5 is still a good size for S and doesn't stand out to me as needing to be reorganized, and the only one that I think MIGHT need to move down, is Mega TTar, since it still loses 1v1 to most Diggersby, given some prior damage, but it still is an amazing pokemon in the tier. And honestly, this threads been up for a long while now, and we've done a good job (I feel) that everything, for the most part, is where it should be that's already on the list. What I think we should be doing with this list at this point is to start discussing mons that should be on the list, but haven't been mentioned (like Magnezone for the past few days) and things on the list that haven't been discussed at all.

On the topic of Magnezone though, like The Reptile said, being able to core it with a Diggersby and just VoltTurn counters to death reminds me a bit like BW Genesect+Dugtrio for the month that it existed. I think it's as good, if not better than Scolipede, so please interpret that as you will.

Also where do you think Chandelure should fall in these tiers? It can be easily summarized as being the strongest special fire bar Charizard-y, as well as boasting the coveted espeed immunity and outspeeding Diggersby (by 2 base stats), but hampered by a ground weakness, little coverage, and low speed relative to the rest of the tier.
It's not just that chansey is an amazing Special wall, she also is amazing as a supporter as I've said and she's definitely A high tier offensive threat with Transform. She creates so many free turns and lets you so whatever you need her to do albeit that is contingent upon. And yeah sorry I decided to join the conversation a little late, But I really feel chansey needs to be S-tier.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Ellipse What's Chandy trying to do? I think it's competing with Char-Y as a Special Fire-type and Gengar as an Espeed switch-in. Char has way better all around stats and coverage while Gengar has Levitate to more reliably come in on Diggersby. With its lower Speed, it could try to use Trick Room, but the priority in this meta hampers that...except that it's immune to Fake Out+Espeed, the most common priority attacks. Right now I'm feeling D rank. There might be a niche for it, but otherwise it doesn't look that exciting.

I'll post some other unranked Pokemon and you guys can try to place them. Be warned: some of them are a bit out there.
  • Still a good trapper for stuff like Heatran, who usually has more Special Defense than Defense thanks to King's Shield.
  • A Steel-type unafraid of Magnezone, can divert all EVs into special bulk thanks to King's Shield, can absorb at least one of Digger's EQs and retaliate with Metal Burst (and fears nothing else Diggers carries for switching in), can Roar/Dragon Tail, and set up Rock or Spikes. Too many things at the top of the ranking keep it down, but it could make a nice Thundy, Scizor, and Aero check.
  • An alternative to Spout Keldeo that can check Venu and Amoonguss with STAB Psystrike or even Thunderbolt for Slowking.
  • I'm really surprised I never ranked this guy. Got a lot of new toys from both STABs.
  • Why isn't this around?? It ought to be. Too bad it's just a few points slower than Diggersby. King's Shield is nice against an Espeeder thinking it can knock out Smeargle trying to lay hazards or trying to Dark Void. Then it can Parting Shot out. Only Bisharp can run that combination, and by the way, does it?
  • Should probably go somewhere.
  • If not for King's Shield, at least for the Metal Burst. It will rarely be OHKOd, so Burst is bound to take out something.
  • Chard-X has taken over its spot as the premier V-create spammer, but this guy did it first! And it can U-turn.
  • A physical setup sweeper not afraid of Quagsire.
  • Trap stuff. Trick stuff. What it normally do.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
Comments in bold o.o

Ellipse What's Chandy trying to do? I think it's competing with Char-Y as a Special Fire-type and Gengar as an Espeed switch-in. Char has way better all around stats and coverage while Gengar has Levitate to more reliably come in on Diggersby. With its lower Speed, it could try to use Trick Room, but the priority in this meta hampers that...except that it's immune to Fake Out+Espeed, the most common priority attacks. Right now I'm feeling D rank. There might be a niche for it, but otherwise it doesn't look that exciting.

I'll post some other unranked Pokemon and you guys can try to place them. Be warned: some of them are a bit out there.
  • Still a good trapper for stuff like Heatran, who usually has more Special Defense than Defense thanks to King's Shield.
Pretty solid Heatran trapper, it can also run a standard suicide reversal hazard lead, which makes it good against ttar. Pretty shabby stats outside of speed though. Maybe C or C-?
  • A Steel-type unafraid of Magnezone, can divert all EVs into special bulk thanks to King's Shield, can absorb at least one of Digger's EQs and retaliate with Metal Burst (and fears nothing else Diggers carries for switching in), can Roar/Dragon Tail, and set up Rock or Spikes. Too many things at the top of the ranking keep it down, but it could make a nice Thundy, Scizor, and Aero check.
Solid physical defense, but its typing isn't that good and it doesn't have recovery, which prevents it from effectively countering threats. Also loses to pretty much everything in S rank and A+ rank except for maybe Scizor. I'd say D rank, if anything at all.
  • An alternative to Spout Keldeo that can check Venu and Amoonguss with STAB Psystrike or even Thunderbolt for Slowking.
I like the idea of this. Its offensive stats aren't that bad. The fact that it has Psystrike STAB to get past what you listed makes it worthy of a ranking. C+ or B- maybe? I think this would require a bit more testing.
  • I'm really surprised I never ranked this guy. Got a lot of new toys from both STABs.
Are we talking about Mega or regular? Neither really gained much from STABmons, as their best STAB is still Close Combat and Megahorn / Pin Missile. I guess Mega Heracross can run a bulkier set with Heal Order. TBH I think Heracross regular is actually better in this meta, as a scarf set allows it to revenge kill anything not named Diggersby (I mean you can if you're at full health, but that'll rarely be the case). Guts makes it so it can't be countered by Sableye, which is interesting. Maybe we should test this out, because I think it might be able to get somewhere in the B~ range.
  • Why isn't this around?? It ought to be. Too bad it's just a few points slower than Diggersby. King's Shield is nice against an Espeeder thinking it can knock out Smeargle trying to lay hazards or trying to Dark Void. Then it can Parting Shot out. Only Bisharp can run that combination, and by the way, does it?
In STABmons I think Smeargle is just too slow and too frail to effectively set hazards. The only niche it has is Dark Void as a sleep move to aid it in setting hazards. Otherwise I think Landorus-T and even Ferrothorn are much better hazard setters in this meta.
  • Should probably go somewhere.
Dunno about Luigi
  • If not for King's Shield, at least for the Metal Burst. It will rarely be OHKOd, so Burst is bound to take out something.
Same as I said about Steelix, lack of reliable recovery really lets it down. In such an offensive meta, things get worn down really quickly, so I doubt you'll be at full hp to metal burst when you need it.
  • Chard-X has taken over its spot as the premier V-create spammer, but this guy did it first! And it can U-turn.
Dunno about this guy either. Lack of secondary STAB, set up moves, and recovery that Charizard has makes it pretty outclassed. IDK if it should be ranked. Maybe D just because it has U-Turn.
252+ Atk Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 246-289 (60.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

  • A physical setup sweeper not afraid of Quagsire.
I saw a few posts about this in the STABmons thread, and I think it actually has some potential. A lot of the physical walls in the meta can't really do anything to it. Skarmory is forced to phaze it, as Metal Burst and Counter don't work well against Rock Blast. Also:
+1 252+ Atk Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Landorus-T: 230-275 (60.2 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 185-220 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Maybe somewhere in the B~ range?

  • Trap stuff. Trick stuff. What it normally do.
Absolute killer to passive stall. You can pretty much tailor it to kill whatever wall you need to be dealt with. It's a bit more flexible than Magnezone in this respect, but it doesn't really do much outside of trapping walls, whereas Magnezone can deal decent damage. Maybe C+ or B-?
 
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Since I'm not as good as kit in navigating the forums text editor, I'm just going to make you guys read a wall of text.

Dugtrio / Gothitelle: They're both trappers, both fairly effective in what they attempt to take out. B- rank at least, maybe Goth could float higher. Wynaut was banned for two whole generations for its ability to trap, these two could at least hit B-.

Steelix: It seems like it would be able to function half decently in theory, but what can it actually accomplish? Diggersby check? fully defensive is 2HKO'd by diggersby. Strudy Metal Burst? People rarely bite that bait. Mixed wall? This will not take special hits, thanks to a combination of stats and typing. Don't forget, it and Skarmory have near identical support movepools, except the bird also gets roost and defog, not to mention infinitely better typing. Either E or D, it is to Skarmory as Blissey is to Chansey, except it doesn't really have a niche over skarm.

Heracross: There is a whole lot of untapped potential in the bug typing in general, namely an underutilization of a bulky sticky web user. Mega could be this pokemon. Also maybe a double setup with guts, drain punch, bulk up, bug stab of choice, and... quiver dance (for spd and spdef). Thats just asking to get topsy'd though. I personally would say Mega is better than regular, but it's probably only low B at best, but even that's probably just sticky web making me want to be extra generous.

Smeargle: Jack of all trades, master of none. Deo formes remain, Smeargle is outclassed. D or C-.

Breloom: Now this is an example of an interesting pokemon. Seemingly, it didn't gain any new moves from its typing, not wanting high bp fighting moves because it conflicts with the feel of technician, and the fact that it has all it needs already from grass with spore and bullet seed. So Breloom would seem to be just an unchanged mon, on it's own merits from standard getting it by. But this is not the case, because it now gains the 60 bp storm throw to abuse, being able to nearly 2HKO skarm through lefties after rocks. Honestly not sure where it should go, as I've never actually used nor have seen it, however the theory seems like it should see some success. (Also, thank you to whoever discovered/ showed me this, not trying to take credit for something i didn't find. I don't remember who it was so I can't name you, sorry about that)

Registeel: What have we learned about dedicated walls with a ground weakness? Also Anything with "Regi" in it's name absolutely screams setup fodder. I really so no value in running this, but maybe one of our stall players could argue its merits (and try to make it a legitimate one. Better mixed bulk than skarm when your running a set with basically the same purpose won't cut it) over other steels, such as Empoleon, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Heatran.

Starmie: Psystrike is an interesting move to say the least, but even with specs analytic on a switch, it can only reliably 2HKO Chansey with a boosting nature, the one pokemon that it really is supposed to punish. Moving past that, special based offenses combined with rapid spinning help it a little if it tries to 1v1 an Aegislash, but that seems like the wrong scenario to stay in on. I would put this about on par with Meloetta.

EDIT: infinite battles only happened in Gen 2 because of different struggle mechanics. In 3 and 4 trapping was broken.
 
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I think the S rank is fine as it is, but if another pokemon were to go up to S rank, Thundurus would have to be first in line. Admittedly, I haven't used it much but in theory it has so much going for it. It has two highly viable abilities, great offensive typing, an amazing speed tier and excellent mixed attacking stats.

It is wonderfully anti-meta: Prankster sets can make your walls into a liability with Taunt + Nasty Plot, absorb Spores and Dark Voids with +1 priority Sleep Talks, slow down opposing sweepers lacking priority with Thunder Wave, or support your team with priority Defogs/Tailwinds. Defiant sets are equally valid and can punish Defog users hard, - not much wants to switch into a +2 Brave Bird/Bolt Strike/Superpower. Mixed sets are also very threatening as very little can safely switch in.

Honestly, I could see Chansey moving down rather than up. It's way too easy to exploit in such a physically dominated metagame. The rising popularity of taunt does it no favours either. Transform can be seen coming from a mile away so it's too easy to just send in something that is walled by something else on your team. I could imagine Mean Look + Perish Song being a neat gimmick, but there isn't really much that it could successfully trap and KO. Rapid Spin sets do ok. I haven't really seen it but Wish + Baton Pass could be solid given its low speed and huge HP.
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Even though chansey can transform and it walls all these possible special attackers, since these special attackers arent all that used it isint even close to the other mons in S. Influence =/= a really amazing mon. Chansey is mid A imo, because of the physical nature of the tier. Lando? It usually runs knock off, which absolutely fucks your special wall (knock off weakness is not good in this meta). Thundy? A good portion of good players run mixed sets with superpower, just for chansey. Just because they are running it for chansey doesnt mean chansey is S worthy, dont kid yourself.

PoopSandwhich being #1 on the ladder means you are decent in the tier, thats about it. Seriously, ladder rankings dont mean much; half of the time good players spend on the ladder is taken up trying new things like defiant thundy and BD cincinno or just random things they had an idea of such as weird archetypes in general.

Thundy-i probably deserves S rank, but putting it in the same rank as diggs is a joke
I still have not heard one good reason why we shouldnt split S.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
Since I'm not as good as kit in navigating the forums text editor, I'm just going to make you guys read a wall of text.

Dugtrio / Gothitelle: They're both trappers, both fairly effective in what they attempt to take out. B- rank at least, maybe Goth could float higher. Wynaut was banned for two whole generations for its ability to trap, these two could at least hit B-.

Steelix: It seems like it would be able to function half decently in theory, but what can it actually accomplish? Diggersby check? fully defensive is 2HKO'd by diggersby. Strudy Metal Burst? People rarely bite that bait. Mixed wall? This will not take special hits, thanks to a combination of stats and typing. Don't forget, it and Skarmory have near identical support movepools, except the bird also gets roost and defog, not to mention infinitely better typing. Either E or D, it is to Skarmory as Blissey is to Chansey, except it doesn't really have a niche over skarm.

Heracross: There is a whole lot of untapped potential in the bug typing in general, namely an underutilization of a bulky sticky web user. Mega could be this pokemon. Also maybe a double setup with guts, drain punch, bulk up, bug stab of choice, and... quiver dance (for spd and spdef). Thats just asking to get topsy'd though. I personally would say Mega is better than regular, but it's probably only low B at best, but even that's probably just sticky web making me want to be extra generous.

Smeargle: Jack of all trades, master of none. Deo formes remain, Smeargle is outclassed. D or C-.

Breloom: Now this is an example of an interesting pokemon. Seemingly, it didn't gain any new moves from its typing, not wanting high bp fighting moves because it conflicts with the feel of technician, and the fact that it has all it needs already from grass with spore and bullet seed. So Breloom would seem to be just an unchanged mon, on it's own merits from standard getting it by. But this is not the case, because it now gains the 60 bp storm throw to abuse, being able to nearly 2HKO skarm through lefties after rocks. Honestly not sure where it should go, as I've never actually used nor have seen it, however the theory seems like it should see some success. (Also, thank you to whoever discovered/ showed me this, not trying to take credit for something i didn't find. I don't remember who it was so I can't name you, sorry about that)

Registeel: What have we learned about dedicated walls with a ground weakness? Also Anything with "Regi" in it's name absolutely screams setup fodder. I really so no value in running this, but maybe one of our stall players could argue its merits (and try to make it a legitimate one. Better mixed bulk than skarm when your running a set with basically the same purpose won't cut it) over other steels, such as Empoleon, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Heatran.

Starmie: Psystrike is an interesting move to say the least, but even with specs analytic on a switch, it can only reliably 2HKO Chansey with a boosting nature, the one pokemon that it really is supposed to punish. Moving past that, special based offenses combined with rapid spinning help it a little if it tries to 1v1 an Aegislash, but that seems like the wrong scenario to stay in on. I would put this about on par with Meloetta.
I though wynaut/wobbuffet were banned because of infinite battles, not because of trapping o.o
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Time for my silly opinions! :D

  • Thugtrio's probably best use is in a pseudo-Genetrio core with a Geomancy or other Fairy-type, as its main use is to trap and kill Tran. However, it seems really spooky with a Geomancer, since it can Memento and lets the Geomancy mon set-up. Still need to be careful with Fake Out + ESpeed, but it seems kind of nice. I think C is perfect for it.
  • Eh, it's decent at checking what it needs to check, but overall I don't think its all that fantastic. A lot of top threats deal with it easily, although it is a nice Scizor / Thundy check. However, they still have ways to pop Steelix (Focus Blast / Superpower, although it needs to be worn down first). The other problem is that it's really easy to wear down. D- seems like the place for Steelix if we even want to list it.
  • A neat alternative to Keldeo thanks to better coverage. However, I feel that it competes way too heavily with Greninja, who is faster, has Dark Void, and can also get over M-Venusaur and Amoonus thanks to Protean Extrasensory. Rapid Spin and Psystrike do give it utility over Greninja and Keldeo, Psystrike especially vs Greninja because it can hurt Chansey harder. However, Greninja can Taunt or Void Chansey if it hasn't use its sleep move already. It isn't bad per-say - it's actually pretty good - but I feel its a bit outclassed at what it does. C+ or C is where I'd put it.
  • Heracross is definitely interesting and needs playing with. We need to rank both separately though, as they both do different things. Heracross is pretty decent at revenge killing things, and has Guts so it doesn't lose to Sableye when it gets burned. From STABmons it gets Mach Punch, that one phazing Fighting-type move (it might get it already and I might be dumb), Heal Order, and Sticky Web, plus some things that I'm probably missing. Meanwhile Mega Heracross can probably run some really mean SubHeal set or just a general stallbreaking set. Not sure what its ranking is, but both need to be ranked separately.
  • Smearlge is alright I guess. It's not a cute anymore due to everything getting its special moves (Dark Void, Sticky Web, strong Set-up, ect.) It's probably only really decent as a baton passer, as you can get better mons to do its job. C- or D+ for this guys imo
  • Same problem Smeargle has - Spore isn't very unique to it. However, unlike Smeargle, it's still kind of good at what it does. It doesn't really get anything else except for Power Whip replacing Bullet Seed and Close Combat being a great STAB move. Probably something like Spore / Mach Punch / Power Whip / Close Combat with Sash. Not as good as in standard though due to ESpeed and faster priority being everywhere, but maybe it can be effective? Probably a C or C- or something. Not completely set on Breloom.
  • see - Steelix. Easy to wear down, only an answer to some things while losing to a lot, ect ect. D-
  • Darm has 2 advantages over Zard X - U-Turn and the fact that it doesn't take up a megaslot. I think it has more competition with Talonflame as a V-Create spammer honestly, as it has the same advantages as Darm but more. Talonflame isn't nearly as powerful as Darm though, obviously, which is what it has over Talonflame, but T-Flame is a lot faster and has a lot of priority with ESpeed and Brave Bird. Darm pretty much suffers from what Starmie does - outclassed but not bad. Going to put it in C+ with Starmie.
  • A very interesting set-up sweeper. Skill Link is such a cool ability, and Bullet Seed is excellent for reking Quagsire. Not much to say here - its fast, frail, and decently strong - not as strong as the other normal mons, but it has tools to make it worth using over them. B is probably perfect for it.
  • Goth is spooky. It pretty much lets you pick something and rek it, at least vs Stall. It didn't get much from STABmons, but it's roll is practically unchanged. It does compete heavily with the other trappers though - Zone traps Steel-types generally better and Duggy is preferred if you hate Heatran. Goth really shines vs Stall though - its lets you pick off a member from their team and potentially cripple another with Trick. Psystrike is also cool on it because it no longer needs to choose between Psychic and Psyshock. If Mag and Duggy are around C rank, I feel Goth should be C or even C+ as well.
 
I laddered with a team based on Sticky Web Mega Heracross for a time, so I can offer input on it.
This was the set I used:

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Drain Punch
- Pin Missile
- Substitute

I ran Rock Blast over Substitute for a time, but I ultimately decided I liked the utlity better than the coverage. Rock Blast is certainly viable, though. You could run Close Combat over Drain Punch if you drop Substitute. I usually led with this, and it's extremely reliable at setting Sticky Web. Even without investment, its bulk is sizable, and even with Drain Punch it hits hard. It beats Chansey with Substitute, preventing the opponent from copying your Sticky Web, and can Sub as Sableye switches in to set Web or slam it with Pin Missile:
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 255-305 (83.8 - 100.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
It can Sub up as counters like Lando-T and Skarmory switch in and set Sticky Web before switching, so it up most of the time. I'm really not good at explaining stuff on paper, so I recommend just trying out this set for yourself, so you can see what I mean.

Overall, from my experience using this set, nominating Mega Heracross for B or B+. I can't say for regular Heracross, though.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Proposed changes:

Magnezone: B --> A-
Starmie: N/A --> B-
Greninja: B- --> B
Dugtrio: N/A --> C+/B-?
Gothitelle: N/A --> B-/B?
Heracross: N/A --> B-
Heracross-Mega: N/A --> C+?
Cinccino: N/A --> C+?
Bisharp: C --> B-?

We didn't talk about Bisharp, but I think Defiant is very useful with Parting Shot/Sticky Web (possibly) on the rise. It can usually switch into Tyranitar and barring a stray Dark Void or Superpower/EQ (don't think Ttar has time for those), it can scare it out and Taunt/Dark Void/Parting Shot a switch-in or scout with King's Shield if Ttar wants to attack. I don't see it going higher though since there are too many things in A/S that hurt it. Being able to Parting Shot out of Magnezone is nice too.

Knock Off/King's Shield/Parting Shot/Gear Grind?
 
Dugtrio is alright, it's not bad per say, but it's just not good. It lacks bulk, is weak, and has a small niche that I'm not sure deserves a ranking. What can it effectively trap and kill in the first place anyways? If I want a trapper I'll go to ProbopassMagnezone, not Dugtrio. I mean, it may have some key niches I'm missing, but I don't see anything that makes it worthy of a rank above C- honestly. The Eevee General - what do you see in this? It doesn't necessarily gain anything and is easily setup on by like everything, and Fake Out + ES completely screws it over. Trapping Heatran is cute and all but I'd rather use something like say Diggersby to force it out and setup or something, Dugtrio just isn't great. Leaving it Unranked is my opinion.
Hmm, Steelix is interesting. It's got some cool niches, but I raise this to you: Why use this over Heatran? Heatran isn't that afraid of Magnezone either, can set Stealth Rock, and has an overall better typing. Plus King's Shield to make up for Defense. Sure, Diggersby is a thorn in Heatran's side, so that's a cool perk that Steelix has. And Spikes is cool as well. Heatran can also Roar to phase and has Lava Plume over Steelix. Surely it's outclassed, it's not really worth it imo. I mean, D Rank is nice for it, but tbh I just don't see this as a 'threat'. Think of it like this, new users could come here and say: "o look, steelix, i love steelix. hmm, it's ranked, it must be able to be used!" When in reality it's not amazing. I'd prefer to leave this Unranked.
I like Starmie. I don't see why to use it over Slowking, though. Speed is neat, but other than that it doesn't have much going for it. Ranking it would be a good idea imo, but, again, my biggest concern is how outclassed it is by Slowking. Specs Starmie sounds intriguing though because it can use Water Spout as well and break through Venu and Amoonguss, so that's another niche it has. Analytic and Natural Cure are neat toys as well and both offer their positive quirks. Would also like to point out that Starmie has a very nice Speed tier, outspeeding like everything relevant and even outspeeding Thundurus to hit it hard with whatever you'd like. So, I think Starmie deserves C+ to start.
Mega Heracross is so cool o3o. Mega Heracross has a fantastic Attack, great bulk, but mediocre Speed. It's so versatile though o3o. Swords Dance U-turn hits like a truck and confused most people but after some brief testing it showed its worth. Smacking around a counter and getting into a counter to the supposed counter is so amazing. Mach Punch is usable as well and Drain Punch, or even High Jump Kick. Someone even posted Sticky Web Heracross! It's definitely viable and needs to be ranked. Mega Heracross goes to town on most things and its wide movepool enable it to be quite a large threat. For these reasons, I think Mega Heracross is deserving of B, while regular Heracross should be C+. The Eevee General - Why are you hyping Heracross over Mega Heracross?

All I cared to comment on o3o
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I like Starmie. I don't see why to use it over Slowking, though. Speed is neat, but other than that it doesn't have much going for it. Ranking it would be a good idea imo, but, again, my biggest concern is how outclassed it is by Slowking. Specs Starmie sounds intriguing though because it can use Water Spout as well and break through Venu and Amoonguss, so that's another niche it has. Analytic and Natural Cure are neat toys as well and both offer their positive quirks. Would also like to point out that Starmie has a very nice Speed tier, outspeeding like everything relevant and even outspeeding Thundurus to hit it hard with whatever you'd like. So, I think Starmie deserves C+ to start.
Starmie and Slowking are in no competition with each other besides their same typing. Slowking is better as a tank. Starmie is better as a revenger. So to say one outclasses the other is incorrect tbh.

Why are you hyping Heracross over Mega Heracross?
Better Speed and Guts to absorb status. I'm not that sold on the Mega tbh. Skill Link is cool, but Megahorn is almost as strong as Pin Missile and Arm Thrust is horribly outclassed by most other Fighting-type moves. With Guts, Heracross is stronger than its Mega forme anyway.
 
TEG, I have an issue with Guts actually. Guts is reliant on the fact that you do get statused, and if its Thunder Wave then the whole thing is moot anyways. Not to be that guy comparing standard tiers and stuff, but Heracross sucks in OU even with Guts. And its Speed sucks without Scarf anyways and Extreme Speed makes the whole argument wrong. Arm Thrust should NEVER be used, idk why you'd bring it up. Any other Fighting-type move makes sense. Guts is reliant on if it Heracross gets statused while Skill Link is active all the time. I've been messing around with Mega and have never once missed the 10+ Speed or Guts (I even run Substitute lol). Also, about Slowking and Starmie, Starmie is a revenge killer yeah so my bad. But, other than that Slowking is better in like every single way. Stats wise, movepool wise, bulk wise, ability wise, in general. I feel like Slowking accomplishes a lot more than Starmie but idk, I haven't gotten to use it much n_n!
 

EV

Banned deucer.
What I meant about Guts is it's nice to have because WOW won't screw you over. I guess I should have said "Guts to absorbs burns at first and then other status." Also, since setup is hard unless you can clear Sableye/Skarmory, etc, having Guts is actually handy because you don't need Swords Dance and the power can't be phazed.

Overall, I think Guts is better than Skill Link. Hell, even Moxie, and it can run priority Mach Punch to keep tallying up the KOs/Attack boosts.

I'm not trying to say Heracross is a game-changer. Too many things wall it or revenge it. I'm just saying the Mega doesn't stand out to me, unlike most other Megas that are better than their base formes.
 
  • Hydreigon: Unkranked ---> B Rank
Hydreigon is a very interesting Pokemon I've been experimenting with a bit lately. It's unique STAB combination opens up a plethora of options from Dragon Dance to the ever important Knock Off. Knock Off is such a great move, it removes bulkier Leftovers and hits really hard. This is very helpful because Knock Off hits its normal counters hard and makes it easier for Hydreigon to break through it a bit later. This is especially neat because it can nuke things with Draco Meteor and then smash things with Knock Off. Or, better yet, just Parting Shot away. Very cool Pokemon that deserves a ranking imo, I'm making a post in the regular thread in a bit about some different sets n_n!

The Eevee General

EDIT;
Ya know what, after more testing I think this deserves B not C lol, it's great.
 
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canno

formerly The Reptile
It could also work as an interesting stallbreaker due to its new access to Taunt as well as its excellent mixed stats and movepool

EDIT: cant into movepools
 
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