Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[EV]

So an idea that's been roaming around my brain is defensive Azumarril. Now normally Azu can't run a defensive set that effectively due to the lack of recovery and/or wall utility. However, in STABmons it has access to Recover(/Slack Off / Soft-Boiled) and a lot of utility moves, the most notable one being Whirlwind, although things like Lovely Kiss and Rapid Spin do deserve some mention. What's cool about Sap Sipper Azumarril is that it can kind of wall both Zards (although it's hard for it to do so both at the same time, due to ZardX getting V-Create and ZardY getting Oblivion Wing). It can also wall Greninja unless it runs something silly like Hidden Power Poison or something. Of course, something has to be put to sleep first so that Greninja doesn't just Dark Void him, but still. This might just all be theory mon and it isn't very effective, but it could be neat. A set of Scald / Recover / Whirlwind / Seismic Toss or something like that could work. Maybe throw Toxic in there somewhere (probably over Scald). I don't know if it would be better to run physically or specially defensive atm, but both have perks (and they help wall a certain type of Zard.)

Again, I haven't play tested this (doesn't really fit my more offensive playstyle and ladder is kind of empty atm) but maybe it could be good?

That's funny because I was theorymonning defensive Azu the other day with word and asterat on separate occasions. I came up with Thick Fat to sponge just about anything Zard-X can throw at it, but Sap Sipper has its uses, too I guess. The biggest problem with Azu without Huge Power is its pitiful attack stats. Sure, Scald is useful for the burn rate, but it still can't do much even on SE hits. It would have to function entirely for support without expecting any return KOs in the process.

Besides the moves you listed, it can also run Heal Bell, Rapid Spin, Perish Song and other options, though arguably it isn't nearly as good a spinner as say Chansey. The only thing Azu has over her is its resists due to its decent typing, making it a solid Zard-X check. (I think Chansey and Heatran are better Zard-Y checks myself.)

asterat mentioned bulky Huge Power, however. That's a whole 'nother conversation, though.

 

[canno]

That's funny because I was theorymonning defensive Azu the other day with word and asterat on separate occasions. I came up with Thick Fat to sponge just about anything Zard-X can throw at it, but Sap Sipper has its uses, too I guess. The biggest problem with Azu without Huge Power is its pitiful attack stats. Sure, Scald is useful for the burn rate, but it still can't do much even on SE hits. It would have to function entirely for support without expecting any return KOs in the process.

Besides the moves you listed, it can also run Heal Bell, Rapid Spin, Perish Song and other options, though arguably it isn't nearly as good a spinner as say Chansey. The only thing Azu has over her is its resists due to its decent typing, making it a solid Zard-X check. (I think Chansey and Heatran are better Zard-Y checks myself.)

asterat mentioned bulky Huge Power, however. That's a whole 'nother conversation, though.

Yeah, after playing with some calcs, Thick Fat is probably better than Sap Sipper (V-Create and Blue Flare are just too strong lol.), although Sap Sipper could be cute to catch some Spores and wall Grass-types in general (although that's not saying much - walling Grass-types isn't the hardest thing in the world). I was thinking to try and avoid not getting murdered by Solar Beam, but Blue Flare does that to any non-SpDef set anyways, so Thick Fat is probably the way to go. If anything, it competes heavily with Quagsire as a physically bulky water, Quag being able to wall most Diggersby (Azu can only take 1 Wild Charge from the Fake Out set, and can't handle boosted Diggs), but Azu is able to wall Zard X and Dark-types that spam Knock Off better. Azu also has the advantage of being able to wall Greninja, baring Extrasensory which 2HKO's

 

[EV]

So I was thinking of this lately, especially since Diggersby is in the Victim of the Week thread, and considering most of its best counters rely on an immunity to Ground (Skarmory and Bronzong namely), why don't I see any Smack Down sets?

Since Wild Charge is fairly useless outside of hitting Skarmory who can just King's Shield anyway, Smack Down on a predicted switch will leave it open to Earthquake. And if Skarmory switches out, something else will have to eat it. It Skarmory uses King's Shield to block EQ, it's only a matter of time before it hits since EQ doesn't make contact and won't lower Diggersby's Attack.

This could work on setup sets once Sableye is cleared or on all-out attacking sets. Also, unfixable has been running Lovely Kiss to sleep counters, which might not have room on a Smack Down set, but it is another alternative when it comes to disabling things like Sableye, giving you a turn to setup and then ruin it with EQ.

 

[EV]

Double post but get over it. This warrants its own spot.

I present to you the best thing since Trace Porygon2* copying Diggersby's Huge Power: BELCH!

After combing through some lesser used moves on Veekun, I came across a little piece of information I wasn't familiar with.

After the user eats a berry, it may use this move any number of times until the end of the battle, even if it switches out. Eating a held berry, eating a berry via Bug Bite or Pluck, or being the target of a Flung berry will enable this move.

What does this mean? It means that our friend Gengar can digest his Sitrus/Petaya/Salac Berry and proceed to spam Belch with reckless abandon for the rest of the match. Sadly, Gengar must forgo an item in place of the berry which must be used, and technically a Life Orb Sludge Wave hits harder, but still. I just made Belch viable.

Speaking of berries, I was also thinking of a gimmicky Exeggutor set with Harvest+Starf+Stored Power. How do you like dem apples coconuts?

(*Trace Porygon2 is actually a cool idea, since it can come in on Diggers, Sableye, Heatran, and others and turn their abilities against them. Sadly it can't run a set to abuse all of them, but a Fake Out+Extreme Speed from a doubled 80 base Attack is bloody good fun.)

 

[xJownage]

trace porygon2 is a great mon I keep building teams around because its so unique, you definitely don't see it pretty much ever. Having stab fake out + espeed is amazing and all, but I like to use it as a tank; I definitely use espeed but I like to use coverage moves and recover as well. Using its bulk to tank attacks and still hit with an extremely high power is really cool, as having a good physical tank is nice. I usually don't even run max atk tbh, although I probably should ;)
Meanwhile, I want to say that download porygon-z is one of the most underrated threats in the tier, being able to easily hit hard on both sides of the spectrum. If it gets a SPA boost, nothing really can tank a boomburst from it, while if it gets an attack boost its mediocre attack becomes usable and it can spam high powered physical moves as well. Its a versatile, fun mon to use, especially because everybody thinks its the specs wallbreaker or scarf revenge killer + cleaner.

How does exeggutor keep getting free turns under that health though? Since it has no passive recovery (i guess you could leech seed but then you would have to tank an attack and that aint happening) and all you could do is spam protect, since you don't have enough health to keep a sub up. You don't have lefties on it since it runs the berry. I guess you could run synthesis, but that would make it dead weight against anything that outspeeds it since it can't live attacks from that low of an HP percentage and then synthesis to regain health. Its a cool gimmick but I don't see it really working in practice.

 

[Ranger Mike]

You're ridiculing eevee when you're the one that is bringing up porygon z...

 

[EV]

trace porygon2 is a great mon I keep building teams around because its so unique, you definitely don't see it pretty much ever. Having stab fake out + espeed is amazing and all, but I like to use it as a tank; I definitely use espeed but I like to use coverage moves and recover as well. Using its bulk to tank attacks and still hit with an extremely high power is really cool, as having a good physical tank is nice. I usually don't even run max atk tbh, although I probably should ;)
Meanwhile, I want to say that download porygon-z is one of the most underrated threats in the tier, being able to easily hit hard on both sides of the spectrum. If it gets a SPA boost, nothing really can tank a boomburst from it, while if it gets an attack boost its mediocre attack becomes usable and it can spam high powered physical moves as well. Its a versatile, fun mon to use, especially because everybody thinks its the specs wallbreaker or scarf revenge killer + cleaner.

How does exeggutor keep getting free turns under that health though? Since it has no passive recovery (i guess you could leech seed but then you would have to tank an attack and that aint happening) and all you could do is spam protect, since you don't have enough health to keep a sub up. You don't have lefties on it since it runs the berry. I guess you could run synthesis, but that would make it dead weight against anything that outspeeds it since it can't live attacks from that low of an HP percentage and then synthesis to regain health. Its a cool gimmick but I don't see it really working in practice.

First note, Porygon Z is banned.

Secondly on Exeggutor, I thought of a better set. At first I didn't realize that Starf was a pinch berry, so I came up with other ideas:

• Rowap Berry+Harvest+Spiky Shield = Anything that tries to damage Exeggutor will be taking damage back.
• Chilan Berry+Harvest = Diggersby check (Hm, I wonder where someone could post this...)

 

[xJownage]

whoops I forgot about porygon-z like an idiot lol. I think that rowap berry would work for a nice gimmick mon that could be fun to use. And yes chilan berry is an evil way to beat diggersby lol.
What I didn't realize is that it can use both protect and spiky shield with the harvest set. That old harvest set actually could work with both to just sit there and beat shit with. if it gets to low HP, even tho its slow :(, it can probably be pretty ridiculous. Unless I am being an idiot and you can't use dual protects on any mon period.

 

[EV]

Unless I am being an idiot and you can't use dual protects on any mon period.

=C
you can't
Only Wide Guard/Fast Guard are spammable like that

 

[xJownage]

why won't it work? would spiky shield and protect run on the same "using repetitively will make odds go down" or "can't be used more than once at a time"? It would be pretty ridiculous, but as far as I know gf didn't make any pokes have both protect and detect by default, although I am unsure of the other moves...

 

[AWailOfATail]

why won't it work? would spiky shield and protect run on the same "using repetitively will make odds go down" or "can't be used more than once at a time"? It would be pretty ridiculous, but as far as I know gf didn't make any pokes have both protect and detect by default, although I am unsure of the other moves...

Runs on the "using repetitively" one iirc, I tested it out with protect and detect on Riolu (I think) and it worked sometimes but not others. I'd assume it worked the same for Spiky Shield and I think I remember reading that somewhere but I could easily be wrong.

 

[Adonzo]

every mon that can learn Detect also learns Protect, and yes, Protect, Detect, King's Shield, Spiky Shield, and Endure all share the same diminishing returns

 

[xJownage]

every mon that can learn Detect also learns Protect, and yes, Protect, Detect, King's Shield, Spiky Shield, and Endure all share the same diminishing returns

:(
On the bright side I actually didn't know that for reasons I don't know.

On a different note, I think people are overlooking the BD azu set, in this meta its very effective as a cleaner. It can easily utilize its power in sweeping once diggersby/ursaring/w/e is gone as the lack of water resists in this meta is striking.

 

[ellipse]

I'm going to say this right now because I'm tired of people suggesting random normals as good belly drummers. The ONLY effective belly drummers in the tier are Talonflame, Kangaskhan, and Stoutland. All the other normals are either too slow, lack coverage outside of espeed, or lack reliable ways to beat the most common physical walls (Skarmory, Forretress, Empoleon, Ferrothorn), and struggle even more mightily with common revenge killers/ BD checks (Sableye, Quagsire, Fake out normals).
To back this up, I'll describe the pros and cons of BD mons, both "good" and "bad".

Talonflame: Fire-Flying-Normal is great coverage, especially when two of your moves have priority and the other has a 50% chance to burn. Fastest Espeed user in the tier (bar jolteon). Cannot beat Heatran regardless, and can only give TTar a going away burn at most. Frail. Relies on sacred fire to burn Quagsire.

Kangaskhan: Great combination of bulk and speed. With perfect neutral coverage between normal-fighting with scrappy, nothing can guarantee a safe switch in. Last slot is free, allowing you to run either protect to beat fake out or earthquake to dodge king's shields, or lovely kiss for sleep shenanigans. Unattractive sub 100 base atk, but is mitigated by +6. Sleep to beat quagsire only.

Stoutland: Same as Kangaskhan, but trades speed and bulk for attack. Also retains fighting-normal scrappy coverage, but switches drain punch for superpower.

Diggersby: Strongest drummer in the tier. Unable to beat sableye. Unable to beat skarm without wild charge, but then still takes massive recoil. Protect in the last slot can make you beat fake out. Low speed means that it loses to many other espeeders.

Snorlax: Very Good bulk, allows it to take a slower approach to the set, possibly running recovery. Has Crunch, EQ, and Fire punch for coverage. Loses to Sableye, loses to Quagsire.

Braviary: Decent bulk, and Great attack. Defiant shields it from intimidates. Good dual STABS, but only coverage is superpower. Loses to Sableye, loses to Quagsire.

Staraptor: Same as Braviary, but loses power in exchange for more speed, intimidate to ease setup, and close combat in place of Superpower.

Flareon: +6 V-CREATE LEGGO! Low speed leave it open to revenge killing. Superpower is only coverage option. Has niche of beating Sableye using only wisp to check physical mons. Terrible physical bulk.

Cincinno: Great speed and the same attack as Kangaskhan. Decent coverage with rock blast and bullet seed, aqua tail, knock off, and wake-up slap (technician). Loses to Sableye. Has Niche that it can KO skarm at full health regardless, and beats Quagsire. Probably the frailest mon on this list.

Sawsbuck: SporeDrum for a blast from the past. Terrible 4mss however. Can't beat sableye. Can beat Quagsire. Can't run jump kick and horn leech on the same set.

Azumarill: Very good bulk, very high attack, access to two forms of priority, and great three move coverage. Needs to brute force its way through Quagsire. Speed ties Sableye (if you go bulky over speedy). Requires high rolls to beat Skarmory. Loses to Empoleon. Very slow, Loses to every other espeeder.

Chansey: It's big enough to be a decent passser.

Obviously, at +6 and most having access to extremespeed means that it can tear through unprepared teams. That isn't what I'm arguing agaainst. What I'm trying to show with this post is that most of these are outclassed as belly drummers by mons that can do it much more effectively, and should use some other type of setup move *coughshellsmashcough* that allows them to improve more than just their attack stat.

EDIT: All this having been said, somebody make belly drum Cincinno a thing.

 

[motherlove]

Would a bulky mega heracross be any good ? heal order, defense order, could beat sableye (pin missile does 123.3 - 144.7%), beats transform chansey with hjk (trickyer if you have drain punch) idk, any thoughts ?

 

[xJownage]

Sableye runs will-o-wisp if its smart, so it probably doesn't beat sableye. It could be okay, but I don't think its worth your mega slot; its not all that good.

 

[YO FACE!!!!!!]

I run this set with lots of success:
Scizor@Life Orb
Evs:252 atk, 252 speed, 4 hp
Shift Gear
Gear Grind
Attack Order
Roost
Jolly
This set usually sets up a Shift Gear and believe it or not, starts sweeping! Gear Grind hits an insane 150 bp BEFORE stab. Have fun spamming Semi-Giga Impacts.

 

[motherlove]

I run this set with lots of success:
Scizor@Life Orb
Evs:252 atk, 252 speed, 4 hp
Shift Gear
Gear Grind
Attack Order
Roost
Jolly
This set usually sets up a Shift Gear and believe it or not, starts sweeping! Gear Grind hits an insane 150 bp BEFORE stab. Have fun spamming Semi-Giga Impacts.

I run this set too, I find it to be one of the best Stabmon set i ever had. i prefer superpower on attack order since it deals with heatran a lot better.

 

[Adonzo]

Again, much prefer Technician Pin Missile as my Bug STAB of choice. 118.8 BP on average with 95% acc clearly beats out Megahorn's 120 BP 85% acc or Attack Order's 90 BP 100% acc, and its non-contact to boot (as is Attack Order), allowing it to muscle past Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs.

 

[DinaIsha]

I run this set with lots of success:
Scizor@Life Orb
Evs:252 atk, 252 speed, 4 hp
Shift Gear
Gear Grind
Attack Order
Roost
Jolly
This set usually sets up a Shift Gear and believe it or not, starts sweeping! Gear Grind hits an insane 150 bp BEFORE stab. Have fun spamming Semi-Giga Impacts.

 

[motherlove]

I thought that too when I saw this post.

 

[Adonzo]

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 192-225 (48.7 - 57.1%) -- approx. 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or

252 Atk Life Orb Scizor Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Should really use either of the above two, as Attack Order lacks the power to beat Quagsire.

252 Atk Life Orb Scizor Attack Order vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[The Immortal]

Mawilite has been banned from OU. The Eevee General tag me if you want to unban Mawilite.

 

[motherlove]

I've never seen mega mawile in stabmons

 

[tegrof19]

I've never seen mega mawile in stabmons

Imagine Shift Gear Mawile with Bullet Punch.

Now imagine defensive Mawile with King's Shield and Moonlight, which still hits very hard.