Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[EV]

Ferrothorn is a better Grass-type, but the neutrality to EQ lets it down, especially since Spiky/King's Shield won't activate their effects from it due to no contact.

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 127-150 (36 - 42.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 252-297 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Pikachuun]

Not sure if I'm pro or anti ban, but what about chesnaught?

That is really, really niche. It also loses to Charizard, Talonflame, Aerodactyl, and many more common threats, just to name a few.

Also, something to keep in mind for all of you peoples:
Remember that Diggersby's most common sets are Belly Drum, Choice Band, SD/Smash, and Fake Out + 3 atks. Also, please make sure you know what a counter/check is before just jumping in and saying that something counters/checks Diggersby. Try to keep your checks and counters to viable Pokemon.

 

[skies]

Also, Spikes + Lovely Kiss + Explosion is legit.

 

[Illusio]

If I had a vote, I would go ban here. The only "true" counter to Diggersby is Sableye, and even that's sorta a stretch.

 

[Zewwok]

Sableye can't switch into EQ, and if the Diggersby user has a heal beller (or lum berry), that's one dead Sableye. imo the most solid check to Diggersby is Skarmory, and that doesn't enjoy switching into wild charge.

LO Set:
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 190-224 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 96-114 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.5% chance to 3HKO

Band set:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 216-256 (64.6 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 110-130 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO

Boosting Set:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Silk Scarf:
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 146-172 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

The only situations in which Skarm can actually beat Diggersby (i.e.: force out) are ones lacking wild charge, or if it wins the KS 50/50 on a non-BD set. Supporting a ban.

 

[w0rd]

Looks like I'm in the minority, but as someone who has played a lot of Stabmons, I really don't think Diggersby is broken at all. It is a top tier threat that every team must be prepared for, but so are things like Keldeo and Talonflame in OU.

It's not like it has no checks either. Offensively there's things like Aerodactyl, Gengar, Terrakion, Scarf Tyranitar, Scarf Heatran, Kabutops, Kyurem-B, Ditto, Faster Normal types, Rotom, Doom Desire + Roar, Rocky Helmet Garchomp , Balloon Aegislash, Jirachi,Set up sweepers with Protect, Scarf Magnezone, Cloyster, etc. Defensively there's Skarmory, Trevenant, Amoonguss, Sableye, Landorus-Therian, Gliscor, Slowbro, Mandibuzz, Suicune, Bronzong, Mew,Krookodile,Cradily,Ferrothorn, Dusclops, Mega Scizor, Toxic Spikes, etc. Sure, these things won't beat every set every time but that's where prediction comes in.

Also with Diggersby out of the way, set up sweepers become even more ridiculous. Other normal types can perform the Fake Out + Extremespeed revenge killing combination but either lack the power (Stoutland, Miltank) or are on a timer (Zangoose, Ursaring) making it difficult to deal with pokemon like Togekiss or Kyurem-Black once they're set up.

 

[Fossil_Maniac_27]

Ellipse I wasn't saying Vacuum Wave is bad, just that I was surprised and intrigued. It was more like a "really, that works? huh."

Not only does Taunt OHKO most Sableye, it shuts down quite a lot, especially when you're trying to sweep. (That's true everywhere but really important here.) It's also great for shutting down Defog, which appears to be more popular than Rapid Spin. Tyranitar should run it on every set IMO though it struggles against Defog Lando-T.

Also I mentioned it earlier, but Prankster Thundurus w/ Taunt should really be used more. It was popular last gen but seems to have been overtaken by Defog or just straight up attacking. Thundurus is a good Prankster in general, with Roost too and the ever-gimmicky-but-hilarious-when-it-works Mirror Move.

I think the metagame has definitely backed away from hyper offense setup to heavy offense that relies on ridiculously powerful attacks. Setup is still there, don't get me wrong, but not as potent. As such, Sableye has fallen a bit, which might give setup a chance to come back. Hm.

Look at the top metagame play styles (10% or more):
weatherless...................56.77642%
offense.......................32.35269%
sand..........................31.45196%
balance.......................27.84513%
hyperoffense..................22.89172%
stall.........................14.23212%
sun...........................12.11338%
sandoffense...................10.93888%

The +2.5 must be Adrian Marin

 

[yoman5]

Guess I just haven't played enough of the meta yet, how reliable is skarm? Doesn't Gengar hard wall it? (or any ghost levitate) and don't point out wild charge as I know thats not common since in this meta diggers has harsh 4mss already

 

[tegrof19]

I just run u-turn on mine, so not being able to touch a mon is irrelevant to me.

Diggersby runs two types of sets: general RK, and sweeper. RK runs Fake Out, ESpeed, EQ, and a filler move (I personally run U-turn since Skarm can just Roost stall after using KS) with various EV spreads (there are many walls around his speed tier) and a Silk Scarf, usually. The main targets of the set are mons that are very threatening and have just killed something, and are in range of Fake Out ESpeed. From there, it can either do just that, or predict the switch and go for another move. In this regard, it keeps a variety of setup mons in emergency check, but a lot of other mons can do this as well (like... say... oh, Sableye, Chansey, and Talonflame) and it has trouble hitting bulky Steel types immune to EQ, and to a lesser extent bulky ghosts immune to EQ.

The sweeper set generally forgoes Fake Out for a boosting move. This set is powerful, I agree. The problem I see is that this meta is almost all about set-up, and so many other mons and be as powerful and BE FASTER, as 78 base isn't good for a sweeper; ESpeed will only take you so far against things like DDance TTar and BD Talonflame. And, again, being Sableye bait isn't fun. But that's another debate entirely.

I'd say no ban.

 

[EV]

Results are in: 4 do not ban, 2 ban. Diggersby is safe ... for now.

 

[DinaIsha]

Meet us in the next edition of Diggersby Suspect, Thousand Arrows: A Warrior's Tale.

 

[ellipse]

Sorry I'm late, but I would've argued for no ban anyways...
Also maybe we should wait on any type of suspect until we see what we get from alpha and omega.
Except thousand arrows. Quickban thousand arrows as soon as it is announced

 

[Throbulator36]

Sorry I'm late, but I would've argued for no ban anyways...
Also maybe we should wait on any type of suspect until we see what we get from alpha and omega.
Except thousand arrows. Quickban thousand arrows as soon as it is announced

V-create, E-Speed, and Boomburst are much more banworthy.

 

[skies]

V-create, E-Speed, and Boomburst are much more banworthy.

Disagreed - V-Create lowers all of your offensively weak stats and leaves you outspeed and hit by so much shit, practically forcing a switch. I mean, yeah, it's strong, but it's not ban worthy. Extreme Speed is interesting, it's not exactly that powerful but its priority is really hot. I think it's just a nice move. Boomburst is utilized by like 3 mons effectively... I mean, yeah it's strong as hell, but it's not some unbeatable thing.

 

[Kit Kasai]

Thousand arrows basically forces you to run Gourgeist as a diggersby counter.

 

[Throbulator36]

Disagreed - V-Create lowers all of your offensively weak stats and leaves you outspeed and hit by so much shit, practically forcing a switch. I mean, yeah, it's strong, but it's not ban worthy. Extreme Speed is interesting, it's not exactly that powerful but its priority is really hot. I think it's just a nice move. Boomburst is utilized by like 3 mons effectively... I mean, yeah it's strong as hell, but it's not some unbeatable thing.

Any of those moves makes it much easier to beat a certain archetype whereas Thousand Arrows only really helps a few pokemon (boomburst at least is extremely powerful)

Thousand arrows basically forces you to run Gourgeist as a diggersby counter.

If a move breaks one pokemon it's not ban-worthy.

 

[ellipse]

Thousand arrows makes Skarm, lando-t, and gliscor, three of the best physical walls in the tier, start losing to offensive grounds, namely diggersby and dd chomp, as well as losing most of their main switch-in opportunities. Sub DD chomp would actually gain near perfect two-move stab coverage, only missing out on whimsicott and sheddy, and the fact that sub would protect it from being revenge killed and sableye'd would propel it from a relic set to imminently viable and potentially top tier. Hell, mono ground attacking isn't even that bad of an idea, especially on a bulky wall like lando-t, since the only resists are grasses, and bugs, two VERY poor defensive types in most instances. On that note, you'd probably see a rise in offensive lando-t, as well as physical lando-I since neither of those types enjoy eating a brave bird (except for probably bulky mega-scizor, who's still almost ohko'd at +2)

And to say boomburst is anywhere close to ban worthy is just ignorant, seeing as how your strongest "abuser" doesn't break the 100 speed tier as well as being physically frail in a physical priority biased meta all in a poor typed package. Your next strongest user isn't any better, being even more frail, stealth rock weak, and failing to break base 110 sp atk. Or if you interpret your next best user to be heliolisk, congratulations, you managed to find yourself something even more frail than Pyroar, while also sacrificing coverage to beat steels and the slight ability to run mixed!

With extremespeed, the name of the game for that move is pp, and 8 shots isn't enough on most sets when faced against any type of bulky offense or play style that's stallier, with the current physical walls being able to easily recover off the damage while you just sit there. That's why fake out got popular, since it allowed you access to extra damage while being a much lower risk move. On sweeping sets, you still have sableye, or in the case of Stoutland and Kangaskhan, hopefully a well-built team and enough common sense to not give them an opportunity to set up. Since this paragraph did lack a little focus, what I'm trying to say is that espeed isn't a move you just go spamming around obliterating things, but a scalpel to pick your opponents team apart with.

Same goes for v-create, but unfixable already described that one enough for me.

 

[canno]

Thousand Arrows only really helps a few pokemon

I didn't realize every physical ground-type counted as "a few pokemon".

Diggs is super obvious (Gourgesit conirm for Alpha Ranking), but he's far from the only mon to use it. Gliscor's SubToxic set gets a huge boost since it doesn't auto-lose to Skarmory anymore. Hippo can opt to just run Thousand Arrows and not even bother with Ice Fang. Shit like Flygon, Garchomp, and even Zygarde no longer have to run Fire Blast / just lose to Skarm and Togekiss. Sand Rush Excadrill is now every excadrill because Thousand Arrows is like giving a Ground-type Mold Breaker but better since it hits Flying-types. Mamoswine barely needs it Ice STABs now. Also, suddenly choiced Ground-types can just spam their STAB because nothing is immune to it anymore. Hell TTar can use it for some sweat coverage thanks to Larvitar/Pupitar. Even fucking Quagsire gets a boost from this. The scariest thing is that all of these monsters no longer need to dedicate a moveslot to hit flying-types - Chomp can run SRSD Lead, SubDD, or even Double Dance easily. Diggersby no longer has to decide between Wild Charge and Head Charge, so Quagsire and other wallmons just crumble. Excadrill doesn't need Rock Slide anymore. Ice Fang Hippo is a lot less appealing.

So yes, Thousand Arrows is much more banable than ESPeed or Boomburst (this is a bad idea in many ways btw) or even V-Create.

 

[xJownage]

no diggersby= we probs have to ban setup moves because any special sweeper who can beat unaware mons literally is just too good.

Seriously, banning thousand arrows? if it makes diggersby too good, ban it when the time comes (altho that is still a shitty idea), but tbh it just makes the meta a little harder on stall. big whoop.

 

[Kit Kasai]

no diggersby= we probs have to ban setup moves because any special sweeper who can beat unaware mons literally is just too good.

Seriously, banning thousand arrows? if it makes diggersby too good, ban it when the time comes (altho that is still a shitty idea), but tbh it just makes the meta a little harder on stall. big whoop.

Big whoop indeed, it doesn't just make things a little harder on stall, it forces everyone to run hyper offense. Most offensive teams still rely on Skarmory to counter diggersby. If arrows was released all of diggers hard counters would be wrecked by it and you'd be forced to check it instead.

 

[EV]

Don't worry, we will address the move when it arrives.

What are some creative sets people have been trying out lately? Any "UU" mons pulling more than their fair share on your team? Cool new combos? Share!

 

[xJownage]

BD cincinno + misc sweeper

everybody brings out quag and gets raped by bullet seed. Its simple yet brilliant.

the amount of baiting that can be done in this meta is amazing, but i never see it. Ill keep all mah good stuff ;)

 

[Throbulator36]

Thousand arrows makes Skarm, lando-t, and gliscor, three of the best physical walls in the tier, start losing to offensive grounds, namely diggersby and dd chomp, as well as losing most of their main switch-in opportunities. Sub DD chomp would actually gain near perfect two-move stab coverage, only missing out on whimsicott and sheddy, and the fact that sub would protect it from being revenge killed and sableye'd would propel it from a relic set to imminently viable and potentially top tier. Hell, mono ground attacking isn't even that bad of an idea, especially on a bulky wall like lando-t, since the only resists are grasses, and bugs, two VERY poor defensive types in most instances. On that note, you'd probably see a rise in offensive lando-t, as well as physical lando-I since neither of those types enjoy eating a brave bird (except for probably bulky mega-scizor, who's still almost ohko'd at +2)

And to say boomburst is anywhere close to ban worthy is just ignorant, seeing as how your strongest "abuser" doesn't break the 100 speed tier as well as being physically frail in a physical priority biased meta all in a poor typed package. Your next strongest user isn't any better, being even more frail, stealth rock weak, and failing to break base 110 sp atk. Or if you interpret your next best user to be heliolisk, congratulations, you managed to find yourself something even more frail than Pyroar, while also sacrificing coverage to beat steels and the slight ability to run mixed!

With extremespeed, the name of the game for that move is pp, and 8 shots isn't enough on most sets when faced against any type of bulky offense or play style that's stallier, with the current physical walls being able to easily recover off the damage while you just sit there. That's why fake out got popular, since it allowed you access to extra damage while being a much lower risk move. On sweeping sets, you still have sableye, or in the case of Stoutland and Kangaskhan, hopefully a well-built team and enough common sense to not give them an opportunity to set up. Since this paragraph did lack a little focus, what I'm trying to say is that espeed isn't a move you just go spamming around obliterating things, but a scalpel to pick your opponents team apart with.

Same goes for v-create, but unfixable already described that one enough for me.

What I meant by my statement wasn't that those moves were broken (in fact I don't believe they are) but that Thousand Arrows wasn't banworthy because it only helps ground types take out things like Gengar, Skarm, and ground immunes, unlike any of those other moves which are powerful even if you discount STAB and can easily take out certain playstyles that don't carry counters to them (which is part of any meta). However, neither E-speed nor V-create have banned pokemon yet so I could be convinced that they're less banworthy than T-Arrows (which has only broken diggs), but boomburst has already banned two mons (and yet isn't broken).

I didn't realize every physical ground-type counted as "a few pokemon".

Diggs is super obvious (Gourgesit conirm for Alpha Ranking), but he's far from the only mon to use it. Gliscor's SubToxic set gets a huge boost since it doesn't auto-lose to Skarmory anymore. Hippo can opt to just run Thousand Arrows and not even bother with Ice Fang. Shit like Flygon, Garchomp, and even Zygarde no longer have to run Fire Blast / just lose to Skarm and Togekiss. Sand Rush Excadrill is now every excadrill because Thousand Arrows is like giving a Ground-type Mold Breaker but better since it hits Flying-types. Mamoswine barely needs it Ice STABs now. Also, suddenly choiced Ground-types can just spam their STAB because nothing is immune to it anymore. Hell TTar can use it for some sweat coverage thanks to Larvitar/Pupitar. Even fucking Quagsire gets a boost from this. The scariest thing is that all of these monsters no longer need to dedicate a moveslot to hit flying-types - Chomp can run SRSD Lead, SubDD, or even Double Dance easily. Diggersby no longer has to decide between Wild Charge and Head Charge, so Quagsire and other wallmons just crumble. Excadrill doesn't need Rock Slide anymore. Ice Fang Hippo is a lot less appealing.

So yes, Thousand Arrows is much more banable than ESPeed or Boomburst (this is a bad idea in many ways btw) or even V-Create.

What I meant by that statement is that apart from diggs and chomp no pokemon is substantially helped by the advent of t-arrows due to its comparatively low BP(even compared to earthquake)
There are 15(16 if you count marowak) base forms of FE ground type pokemon that are viable(2 of which are special and 6 of which are more defensive than offensive leaving 7(or 8) physical attackers that are viable which is not many at all) in Stabmons. The only one I could see t-arrows breaking is diggs (hint: one less broken pokemon than boomburst). Even if Garchomp gets broken that's still the same amount of pokemon broken as boomburst.

 

[ellipse]

Since you don't seem to get this, Thousand Arrows makes ground as a whole a broken attacking type. To help me reinforce this, here's a list:

• Diggersby: Gourgeist & Trevenant. Two true counters
• Excadrill: who needs mold breaker?
• Garchomp: Almost perfect neutral STAB coverage, great boosting options in SD and DD, as well as an amazing spread
• Lando-I: Physical lando was a thing in BW (pre sheer force), and it would definitely return with PERFECT neutral STAB coverage and good stats and bulk
• Lando-t: Same as above, but did I mention it has 140 base attack now?
• Gliscor: 0 immunities to sub toxic, it could even run a sweeping set with sand veil abuse, and following the trend, perfect STAB coverage
• Quagsire: restalk with curse is now legit. Thanks
• TTar/mega: doesn't need to rely on special based moves to punish incoming skarmories
• Marowak: bulky rock polish I guess?
• Mamoswine: Some people ran freeze-dry off base 70 in standard just for its one check, Rotom-w. Imagine that, but better in every aspect.
• Ninjask: That one person who runs CB ninjask needs not fear Skarmory switch ins any longer!
• Zygarde: Coil restalk is a thing now.
• All other physical grounds: Nothing is immune to your main STAB now! Skarmory's niche is dead!

Oh and tell me one pokemon that boom burst broke. Don't say p-z or sylveon either, they would've been broken even with just techno blast.

Also evee, I haven't used them in awhile, but sash smash Barbaracle is pretty decent as well as mega houndoom.

 

[EV]

TBF, things will likely shift toward offense because they can spam Ground STAB whereas before they couldn't. Both Landorus forms come to mind because Ground/Flying will be unresisted at that point. Landorus-T has 145 Attack. Do you think it won't go physical offense if it gets the chance? Landorus-I might actually shift to Sand Force solely because Thousand Arrows exists. The move's mechanic is an incentive to encourage more offense. People will take advantage of it.