Ladder STABmons (the old one)

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EV

Banned deucer.
Should Togekiss be banned?
Where to start? The most common set is Power Herb Geomancy+3 attacks (Moonblast/Oblivion Wing/Fire Blast/Aura Sphere take your pick). Substitute is common, too, which lets it beat some of its counters like Heatran, which can't recover and has a hard time breaking Togekiss's subs at +2 SDef. Serene Grace is the most popular ability, but Super Luck is arguably better. That's pretty much the extent of Togekiss's "versatility."

On the downside, once Power Herb is gone, it has to burn 2 turns to try and Geomancy again or hit much weaker without any boosts. 125 Base Attack isn't terrible, however. It struggles to break Chansey in nearly every scenario. Heatran can survive a +2 Aura Sphere and Roar it out. Without the right coverage other Pokemon can play around it (good luck scouting though). A Bullet Punch from Scizor or even Aegislash/other Steels can revenge it, but Togekiss commonly invests in bulk and Oblivion Wing takes it out of revenge range pretty quickly.

That being said...
  • If you are in favor of banning a suspect, please provide examples of why they are unhealthy for the metagame with replays, calcs, anecdotes explaining their over-centralization, lack of true checks/counters, etc.
  • If you are not in favor of a ban, please provide the examples of how they are reliably checked/countered by other Pokemon that can still function well in STABmons.
  • Posts that fail to explain their reasoning will be moderated. Basically, don't just say "LOLOLOL heeeell naaaah!" or "OMFG yessss kill itttt!". Explain why.
Discussions will last about a week. GL/HF
 
Priority is EVERYWHERE and Togekiss lacks it. That says a LOT.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 204-242 (54.6 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 198-237 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 211-250 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 176-210 (47.1 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 174-211 (46.6 - 56.5%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 172-203 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO

Being a Sub user weak to Gear Grind (the most powerful Physical Steel move which can and WILL break this thing's Sub) also doesn't do it any favors.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 508-604 (136.1 - 161.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 500-592 (134 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Heatran Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 208-252 (55.7 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yeah, I'm saying that Gear Grind Heatran should be a thing. So what?)
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 436-520 (116.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Well, this is out of the blue.

Togekiss is certainly one of the better Special Setup mons out there.

But as mentioned, Chansey gives it a headache. Even after burning Power Herb, Togekiss struggles to break Chansey.

Whereas Chansey can do numerous things in return: Heal back the low damage, Toxic it, Transform-Sweep, Setup SR, Slow Baton Pass to a Fake Speeder or banded Scizor and most importantly, force it to switch after wasting a Power Herb, making it substandard for the rest of the match.

Heatran is a shaky check. The niche Shift Gear Heatran can threaten a sweep on its face.

The most predictable thing about it is that it will always attempt to setup Geomancy on its first turn out.

I'm neutral about a Ban though. I wouldn't mind it, but let's wait for more arguments.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Priority is EVERYWHERE and Togekiss lacks it. That says a LOT.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 204-242 (54.6 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 198-237 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 211-250 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 176-210 (47.1 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 174-211 (46.6 - 56.5%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 172-203 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO
None of that priority OHKOs whereas Togekiss does in return or just saps a ton of HP with Oblivion Wing and heals itself. For Heatran, CB is wrecked by +2 Aura Sphere. A specially defensive spread running Gear Grind could do it I suppose.
Well, this is out of the blue.

Togekiss is certainly one of the better Special Setup mons out there.

But as mentioned, Chansey gives it a headache. Even after burning Power Herb, Togekiss struggles to break Chansey.

Whereas Chansey can do numerous things in return: Heal back the low damage, Toxic it, Transform-Sweep, Setup SR, Slow Baton Pass to a Fake Speeder or banded Scizor and most importantly, force it to switch after wasting a Power Herb, making it substandard for the rest of the match.

Heatran is a shaky check. The niche Shift Gear Heatran can threaten a sweep on its face.

The most predictable thing about it is that it will always attempt to setup Geomancy on its first turn out.

I'm neutral about a Ban though. I wouldn't mind it, but let's wait for more arguments.
Chansey is only one dedicated counter D: Should I have to run Chansey on every team to prepare for this?
And Chansey's best option is to WW imo. Status doesn't work against Subs. WW forces it out OR forces out the switch.
 
Chansey is the only Counter, agreed. Then again, it's the only Special Wall in the entire tier that has other utilities as well.

It's the case with Movepools and EVs again. If it doesn't run Fire Blast, Aegislash beats it. If it doesn't run Substitute, Chansey walls it. If it doesn't run Aura Sphere, Heatran walls it. If it doesn't run HP, CB Scizor KOes it. If it doesn't run Speed, Aerodactyl-Mega wrecks it.

It's good and unpredictable. Wait we've heard that before: Diggersby. Except, Togekiss has a dedicated counter, vulnerable to revenge killing, loses credibility if it's forced to switch after burning Power Herb etc.,

Heck, even SashSmash Cloyster can deal with it.

In a tier with Belly Drummers and Shell Smashers, Togekiss is essential evil representing its own OP setup.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
I don't have much to say about the matter at the moment, except I don't see what Togekiss has that other set-up sweepers don't have that makes it broken.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I don't have much to say about the matter at the moment, except I don't see what Togekiss has that other set-up sweepers don't have that makes it broken.
Mainly:
  • The ability to beat Sableye nearly every time
  • The bulk to withstand even SE priority
  • Good coverage with just 2 moves so it can opt for a Substitute
  • Oblivion Wing
  • Only 1 dedicated counter
  • Checks that lack recovery
Similar and common setup sweepers for comparison:
  • Mega Pidgeot
    • Horrible coverage, can't use Judgment
    • Bad dual STABs
    • Can't run White Herb to remove -1/-1 after Shell Smash
    • Doesn't and shouldn't invest in bulk
    • Saving grace is Sing
  • Meloetta
    • Bad dual STABs
    • Must run a Plate for Judgment coverage or White Herb to remove -1/-1 after Shell Smash
    • ^always leaves it vulnerable to either Sableye, Tyranitar, Heatran, or revenge Fakespeed
    • No HP recovery unless it runs Recover over coverage (bad idea)
    • Rarely invests in bulk
  • Espeon
    • A faster, frailer Meloetta without STAB Boomburst
    • Often runs Focus Sash and must rely on weaker Hidden Power for coverage
    • Magic Bounce is a blessing and a curse: Sableye can priority phaze it with Parting Shot
  • Diancie
    • Like Togekiss, it runs Power Herb Geomancy
    • Really only has the Moonblast, Power Gem, and Earth Power set, but the coverage is stellar
    • Doesn't run Substitute
    • Slower and weaker
 
Well, I'd say that to get toge banned you'd have to use the same reasoning as greninja's/lucario's ban. It can kill any(except chansey) "counters" by running a different move. Except we've already established that that reasoning doesn't work here(diggersby who is more dangerous(except that not everyone runs toge checks) greninja who is not as good as in standard). Some of these "counters" include heatran and aegislash. My personal opinion is that:
If we ban it we must ban diggs but if we don't ban it we must unban lucarionite.

Edit: banner is outdated. plz change it to say "STABMONS ORAS"
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Well, I'd say that to get toge banned you'd have to use the same reasoning as greninja's/lucario's ban. It can kill any(except chansey) "counters" by running a different move. Except we've already established that that reasoning doesn't work here(diggersby who is more dangerous(except that not everyone runs toge checks) greninja who is not as good as in standard). Some of these "counters" include heatran and aegislash. My personal opinion is that:
If we ban it we must ban diggs but if we don't ban it we must unban lucarionite.

Edit: banner is outdated. plz change it to say "STABMONS ORAS"
Um, unbanning Lucarionite is not an option and it has nothing to do with a Togekiss suspect.

Do you think Adaptability Doom Desire (which I mentioned in STABmons+) coupled with Secret Sword and its other moves is healthy for this metagame? I sincerely hope you're joking.
 
I fully support banning Togekiss. Togekiss's bulk is what people are really overlooking; this is what allows it such easy set up. Substitute / Geomancy / Oblivion Wing / [Aura Sphere / Fire Blast] KOs pretty much everything in the tier but Heatran or Aegislash, dependent on the coverage. Oblivion Wing is such sweet icing because it allows it to keep at 100% and have boosts everywhere. To some other's posts:

Priority is EVERYWHERE and Togekiss lacks it. That says a LOT.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 204-242 (54.6 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 198-237 (53 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 106-126 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 211-250 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 176-210 (47.1 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 174-211 (46.6 - 56.5%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 172-203 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO
Posting a wall of calcs is meaningless when Aegislash and Heatran don't run priority often, and Mamoswine and Weavile are just not used ever. Seriously, does anyone run Choice Band Heatran outside of a gimmick-like role? Sure, you can cherry pick the calcs, but you neglect to mention that, in return, Togekiss can use Oblivion Wing and turn many of these 2HKOes into 3HKOes or even 4HKOes because of the residual damage. Posting these calcs are like posting Pokemon that can live a Greninja's Ice Beam -- there's a lot of them, but that doesn't prove anything.

Being a Sub user weak to Gear Grind (the most powerful Physical Steel move which can and WILL break this thing's Sub) also doesn't do it any favors.
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 508-604 (136.1 - 161.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 500-592 (134 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Heatran Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 208-252 (55.7 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yeah, I'm saying that Gear Grind Heatran should be a thing. So what?)
252+ Atk Choice Band Heatran Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 436-520 (116.8 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Once again, these are literally two viable Gear Grind users. Posting a calc of Heatran using Gear Grind does not prove anything and doesn't show that Togekiss is any less worse. This is basically just "Togekiss has weaknesses and therefore is not broken," which is completely false.

But as mentioned, Chansey gives it a headache. Even after burning Power Herb, Togekiss struggles to break Chansey.

Whereas Chansey can do numerous things in return: Heal back the low damage, Toxic it, Transform-Sweep, Setup SR, Slow Baton Pass to a Fake Speeder or banded Scizor and most importantly, force it to switch after wasting a Power Herb, making it substandard for the rest of the match.
The only real problem on this is Seismic Toss, which I haven't seen too often lately. Substitute Togekiss can muscle past Chansey by setting up to get to a +6 and then recovering huge chunks with Oblivion Wing. It may be hard, but any Chansey lacking Seismic Toss is beaten by Togekiss. Baton Pass, sure, but if you set up a Substitute on that turn then Togekiss won't really care.

Heatran is a shaky check. The niche Shift Gear Heatran can threaten a sweep on its face.
If you've Geomancy'd as it comes in, Heatran is OHKOed by Aura Sphere at +2. Aura Sphere Togekiss is more common, I believe, because Flying / Fighting is excellent coverage. If it Shift Gears, and Togekiss Geomancy's, then it comes to what nature both are running. Togekiss outspeed anything when using the same nature as the other, so if Togekiss is running Modest and Heatran is running Adamant, then Heatran gets outsped by Togekiss and OHKOed.

The most predictable thing about it is that it will always attempt to setup Geomancy on its first turn out.
However, it could Substitute as well. Predictably isn't a bad thing per say, as long as the Pokemon can use the predictably to its advantage.

Well, I'd say that to get toge banned you'd have to use the same reasoning as greninja's/lucario's ban. It can kill any(except chansey) "counters" by running a different move. Except we've already established that that reasoning doesn't work here(diggersby who is more dangerous(except that not everyone runs toge checks) greninja who is not as good as in standard). Some of these "counters" include heatran and aegislash. My personal opinion is that:
If we ban it we must ban diggs but if we don't ban it we must unban lucarionite.

Edit: banner is outdated. plz change it to say "STABMONS ORAS"
This makes no sense at all... Why would we unban a Pokemon based on another's brokeneness? That's like unbanning Arceus-Steel because Mega Salamence was strong as well. Then there's the whole "we ban Greninja, we ban Landorus-T as well" argument in this post, which doesn't make sense.

Togekiss can set up on a lot thanks to its bulk, lives priority, and has powerful recovery on top of this. For all of these reasons, I'd say ban Togekiss.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
I don't think togekiss should be banned. There are three extremely viable counters in Heatran, Chansey, and Aegislash (depending on Togekiss's set), of these Chansey being the most reliable. There are also many less reliable checks and counters in the form of Clefable, Sableye (non sub), Mr. Duck, aforementioned priority revenge killers (non sub and some prior damage), etc.

Chansey is your best bet to defeat Togekiss reliably, as no matter what Togekiss does, there is no way it can 2HKO Chansey on the switchin (it has to spend a turn boosting). From there Chansey just phazes Togekiss out, making it useless for the rest of the match.

Now I know that nobody wants to be forced to run Chansey on every single team so there are (less reliable alternatives). Heatran can easily do the same thing Chansey does to Togekiss that do not run Aura Sphere. Aegislash can counter non fire coverage Togekiss, which as unfixable said are less common.

The hardest part is determining what set it is actually running, but because there are reliable counters to each possible set and because there is at least one pokemon that can counter all possible sets makes me say no ban.
 
Um, unbanning Lucarionite is not an option and it has nothing to do with a Togekiss suspect.

Do you think Adaptability Doom Desire (which I mentioned in STABmons+) coupled with Secret Sword and its other moves is healthy for this metagame? I sincerely hope you're joking.
This makes no sense at all... Why would we unban a Pokemon based on another's brokeneness? That's like unbanning Arceus-Steel because Mega Salamence was strong as well. Then there's the whole "we ban Greninja, we ban Landorus-T as well" argument in this post, which doesn't make sense.
I would like to say that when I posted the thing I was tired from school so some things were said on impulse(mainly the things about lucarionite).
What I meant to say is that the only reason to ban toge is because it can beat (most of)its counters with viable sets. but we've already established with the diggs suspect that that argument won't ban a pokemon. At the time I thought the only reason that lucarionite was broken was because of that reasoning so it wouldn't make any sense for it to be the only pokemon banned because of that.
Also I said diggs not landot. I said this because if we banned toge the reason would be because it can beat its counters with viable sets which diggs can do but better. Therefore if we were to find toge broken it wouldn't make any sense why we didn't find diggs broken.(AKA if toge is broken for that reason but that reason wasn't found to be enough to ban diggs we would be inconsistent in our banning logic)
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Like I mentioned earlier, misplays against Togekiss are more unforgiving because two of its best checks (Heatran and Aegislash) don't have reliable recovery, sometimes not even Leftovers, and can be worn down and beaten 1-on-1. When Togekiss is at +2 Special Defense, Heatran cannot break its subs without Doom Desire*, which takes 2 turns to hit and in the meantime Togekiss is recouping HP with Oblivion Wing. If it chooses to Roar out Togekiss, you had better pray it's not packing Aura Sphere, otherwise its still taking a sizeable chunk from a +2 Oblivion Wing. Saying Togekiss is useless after Power Herb gets burned is not true either. If it manages to get up another sub, Geomancy will be much easier to pull off. Or it could just attack flat out against the next target and still hit decently.

Aegislash is in a better position because it hits on the physical side (usually) so a Gear Grind will break the sub and then deal considerable damage. BUT Togekiss will have either hit it with Fire Blast first, which at +2 does a lot to even Shield Aegislash, or hit it with Oblivion Wing, regained HP, and made it harder to KO the next turn. If the Aegi player is packing King's Shield, it can revert to that forme again to abuse its higher Special Defense. You'd better hope they don't just throw up another sub, though. Basically, Togekiss can live one Gear Grind (50x1) but Aegislash can't live 2 Fire Blasts or even 2 Oblivion Wings if it gets hit in Sword forme.

*252+ SpA Heatran Searing Shot vs. +2 248 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 81-96 (21.7 - 25.7%), okay it has the tiniest of chances

We're also making assumptions that the Togekiss player will Geo with an enemy Heatran/Aegi/Chansey around and they don't have proper coverage. The player can just use Sub each time they come in and wear them down (see note about reliable recovery, barring Chansey) so when they do get up Geo, the check is too weak to do its job. Again, must I run Chansey on every team to prepare for Togekiss?
 
Again, must I run Chansey on every team to prepare for Togekiss?
You are free to run something like Cosmic Power + Stored Power Unaware Clefable. It's just that Chansey has more utility. Plus Togekiss doesn't get past a Sableye that uses DB (Which is niche, but it's there).

252+ SpA Togekiss Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

The primary argument I have against its ban is that its a one-hit wonder. If something like the above example or a Specially Defensive Heatran Roars it out after burning Power Herb, it has a very low utility the next time it comes out. More often than not, when you see a Clefable setup Cosmic Power, you're going to have to switch right away to avoid a sweep.
 
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You are free to run something like Cosmic Power + Stored Power Unaware Clefable. It's just that Chansey has more utility. Plus Togekiss doesn't get past a Sableye that uses DB (Which is niche, but it's there).

252+ SpA Togekiss Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 105-124 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

The primary argument I have against its ban is that its a one-hit wonder. If something like the above example or a Specially Defensive Heatran Roars it out after burning Power Herb, it has a very low utility the next time it comes out. More often than not, when you see a Clefable setup Cosmic Power, you're going to have to switch right away to avoid a sweep.
Do most Geokiss actually run Modest Max Sp Atk? I run 60 Sp Atk so I can OHKO heatran, but I run 244/204+ for my Geokiss' physical bulk as I'm gaining in Sp Atk, Sp Def and speed, preveting me being threatened by powerful physical priority.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 208+ Def Togekiss: 252-296 (67.7 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That was the hardest hitting Priority I could find and you still get off 80% or so with a simple oblivion wing, so some prior damage and it's good to go.

Edit: +2 60 SpA Togekiss Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 292-348 (75.8 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and a Guarenteed when they switch into Oblivion Wing and don;t expect HP Ground - what I gave at the top of my comment.
 
Do most Geokiss actually run Modest Max Sp Atk? I run 60 Sp Atk so I can OHKO heatran, but I run 244/204+ for my Geokiss' physical bulk as I'm gaining in Sp Atk, Sp Def and speed, preveting me being threatened by powerful physical priority.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 208+ Def Togekiss: 252-296 (67.7 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That was the hardest hitting Priority I could find and you still get off 80% or so with a simple oblivion wing, so some prior damage and it's good to go.

Edit: +2 60 SpA Togekiss Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 292-348 (75.8 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and a Guarenteed when they switch into Oblivion Wing and don;t expect HP Ground - what I gave my comment
And how do you deal with Clefable? And tf, no Togekiss runs HP Ground.

Scald Prediction OP. Actually, I might be tempted to run Setup Digger again for ORAS.
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
What's your standard Mega Aerodactyl set?

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head -> Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 96 Def / 160 Spe or 182 Atk / 96 Def / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Diamond Storm
- Roost
- Taunt / Earthquake

The first set of EVs allow Mega Aero to outspeed Mega Pidgeot. The second allows regular Aerodactyl to outspeed Thundurus prior to mega evolving. If you want to outspeed Mega Pidgeot prior to mega evolving you have to drop Adamant, which isn't advised because of what this set does. Ideally, with 96 Def EVs you can survive LO FakeSpeed from Adamant Diggersby after Stealth Rock, Roost up or just OHKO with Dragon Ascent. The EVs also allow you to switch into Diggersby's Knock Off and live a follow up Espeed also with Stealth Rock up.

--

Now here's a little anti-meta.


Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Modest Ability
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Trick / Magic Coat (without Specs)
- Filler

This set still needs work, but it's a bit of theorymon to beat common leads. Modest Specs is necessary to OHKO Mega Aero with Psycho Boost, which you handily outspeed in any scenario with 252 Speed. Ice Beam sends Landorus-T packing, even without Specs so long as you're Modest. Trick says lol to Chansey (not a lead I know but it stops Deoxys otherwise.) Sableye, well, a Specs set can't really handle Sableye, which is why you can forgo that item and run Magic Bounce to rebound its Taunt/DV/WOW/etc. Non-Specs sets can also run Taunt and hazards and will keep some Defoggers at bay with the threat of Ice Beam.

Begin rant:
Essentially, Deoxys-Speed is very customizable. I don't think I've ever seen it. We have this tendency in STABmons to focus on what each Pokemon gains rather than what's already good. I often find standard OU sets outperforming common STABmon sets, like Sableye for example. Lately I've been running all standard moves to great success, mostly because DV and PS are so predictable. Heatran is still a good stallbreaker. Tyranitar is still a good Pursuit trapper. Keldeo is still a good Calm Minder. Obviously there are roles that this metagame has that standard OU could only dream about (Diggersby or Landorus-T with flying STAB), but at the same time, there are archetypes that do well in any meta. Deoxys-Speed is versatile and good at what it does. Let's see how good it can be in STABmons now.
/end rant
 
What's your standard Mega Aerodactyl set?

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head -> Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 96 Def / 160 Spe or 182 Atk / 96 Def / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Diamond Storm
- Roost
- Taunt / Earthquake

The first set of EVs allow Mega Aero to outspeed Mega Pidgeot. The second allows regular Aerodactyl to outspeed Thundurus prior to mega evolving. If you want to outspeed Mega Pidgeot prior to mega evolving you have to drop Adamant, which isn't advised because of what this set does. Ideally, with 96 Def EVs you can survive LO FakeSpeed from Adamant Diggersby after Stealth Rock, Roost up or just OHKO with Dragon Ascent. The EVs also allow you to switch into Diggersby's Knock Off and live a follow up Espeed also with Stealth Rock up.

--

Now here's a little anti-meta.


Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Modest Ability
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Trick / Magic Coat (without Specs)
- Filler

This set still needs work, but it's a bit of theorymon to beat common leads. Modest Specs is necessary to OHKO Mega Aero with Psycho Boost, which you handily outspeed in any scenario with 252 Speed. Ice Beam sends Landorus-T packing, even without Specs so long as you're Modest. Trick says lol to Chansey (not a lead I know but it stops Deoxys otherwise.) Sableye, well, a Specs set can't really handle Sableye, which is why you can forgo that item and run Magic Bounce to rebound its Taunt/DV/WOW/etc. Non-Specs sets can also run Taunt and hazards and will keep some Defoggers at bay with the threat of Ice Beam.

Begin rant:
Essentially, Deoxys-Speed is very customizable. I don't think I've ever seen it. We have this tendency in STABmons to focus on what each Pokemon gains rather than what's already good. I often find standard OU sets outperforming common STABmon sets, like Sableye for example. Lately I've been running all standard moves to great success, mostly because DV and PS are so predictable. Heatran is still a good stallbreaker. Tyranitar is still a good Pursuit trapper. Keldeo is still a good Calm Minder. Obviously there are roles that this metagame has that standard OU could only dream about (Diggersby or Landorus-T with flying STAB), but at the same time, there are archetypes that do well in any meta. Deoxys-Speed is versatile and good at what it does. Let's see how good it can be in STABmons now.
/end rant
Once again, I think it has to do with priority. Deoxys-S dies to pretty much all Priority good enough in STABmons.

I'd love to see more variety too. Maybe in STABmons UU.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Once again, I think it has to do with priority. Deoxys-S dies to pretty much all Priority good enough in STABmons.

I'd love to see more variety too. Maybe in STABmons UU.
Yeah but. So does Thundurus and it's S rank. Priority keeps a lot of things from excelling, but the things Deoxys wants to curtail aren't using it (minus Prankster Sableye which is why you pack Magic Coat.) Its goal is to outspeed leads and KO them first or act as a hazard setter/Taunter against walls and punish Defoggers with Ice Beam/Psycho Boost. Let's not dismiss Pokemon on the grounds of "Priority kills it" so easily. I think our mentality of Priority Rules! is keeping us from exploring other options. This isn't to say I'm ignoring how good priority is, rather it's a criticism of our mindset that's preventing us from even trying.
 
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Yeah but. So does Thundurus and it's S rank. Priority keeps a lot of things from excelling, but the things Deoxys wants to curtail aren't using it (minus Prankster Sableye which is why you pack Magic Bounce.) Its goal is to outspeed leads and KO them first or act as a hazard setter/Taunter against walls and punish Defoggers with Ice Beam/Psycho Boost. Let's not dismiss Pokemon on the grounds of "Priority kills it" so easily. I think our mentality of Priority Rules! is keeping us from exploring other options. This isn't to say I'm ignoring how good priority is, rather it's a criticism of our mindset that's preventing us from even trying.
Espeon is 2HKOed by Sableye using Knock Off with little to no investment in Attack. Whereas Thunduru's claim to fame is stopping Sableye, Chansey AND Quagsire in their tracks: Basically a huge middle finger to Stall. Deoxys is definitely not as effective.
 
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