Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[skies]

Tangrowth is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

252/252+ AV is a viable set and is 3HKOed.

Amoonguss is 3HKOed, but can't deal with SubCM.

Giga Drain 2HKOes Keldeo without any boosts, and it's enough to break the Substitute in time to Clear Smog. It will eventually force Keldeo out.

Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Specially Defensive Mega Venusaur can't deal with SubCM.

Same deal as Amoonguss.

Tentacruel is 3HKOed. And of course, cannot handle SubCM.

I've been using a set of Rapid Spin / Scald / Clear Smog / Giga Drain and is a wonderful stop to all Keldeo.

Azumarill is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Check. It comes in to a Water Spout, clicks Extreme Speed, Water Spout doesn't KO anymore.

Slowking is a 3HKOed, but hates Scald from SubCM sets.

But forces out Keldeo with Psystrike...

Most of these are in the 'useless' calcs, which I assume you've actually looked at before commenting. Only Slowking is the most viable check and I've pretty much never seen Slowking in STABmons except on word's team in one battle. Slowbro is 2HKOed.

I did read through them, but showing Keldeo OHKOing a Gliscor is what I mean by useless, not that they're all useless. Keldeo is a great Pokemon with SubCM, I can confirm that and have never said it's bad, but you are under the assumption that everything dies to Keldeo and nothing stands a chance. Keldeo has trouble switching in because of these Pokemon, which are common, and it can not switch in with them out there. It can't switch in to a lot on offense unless on a kill. Getting in is half the battle.

 

[DinaIsha]

Hahaha.. I'm not arguing here anymore. I've presented my idea. Slapping Assault Vest onto Pokémon and calling them counters is just too funny. Especially when:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%)

Amoonguss is not viable otherwise. Assault Vest Azumarill isn't even a thing (tf, man).

I've only seen Slowking so far as a viable check.

I'll not be posting here regarding this subject anymore. I don't want this suspect to derail the thread again (We all know what happened last time). I just saw something unbalanced in the metagame and wanted to set it straight. Good day.

 

[EV]

So after thinking it over, I put together a new, smaller council to help with suspects. The five member team is me, insanelegend , Lcass4919 , Ellipse , and @pagoose (aka Doctor Kibble-bibble: DMD thanks to that mystery box smh.) We'll vote on Keldeo and post the result soon.

FAQ:
Why did you make a new council when last time you said you would handle suspects on your own with input from the community?
I realized I wasn't able to do it myself. ^-^

Why aren't any of the old council members (besides yourself, you arrogant SOB) back?
I wanted a clean slate with new perspectives and ideas. We all know what went down last time, so this should prevent any distractions from impeding us going forward.

How will you decide the suspects?
A council member can nominate it and as long as it gets a second nomination, we'll consider it for suspecting.

Can I be on the council?
No, at least for now. I'd rather keep it limited to 5 since it's easier to manage. If a vacancy arises, I'll confer with the rest of the council to pick a new member.

 

[Pagoose]

Tangrowth is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Amoonguss is 3HKOed, but can't deal with SubCM.

Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Specially Defensive Mega Venusaur can't deal with SubCM.

Tentacruel is 3HKOed. And of course, cannot handle SubCM.

Azumarill is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Slowking is a 3HKOed, but hates Scald from SubCM sets.

Most of these are in the 'useless' calcs, which I assume you've actually looked at before commenting. Only Slowking is the most viable check and I've pretty much never seen Slowking in STABmons except on word's team in one battle. Slowbro is 2HKOed.

Some others:
-Latios: Even though it does get 2hko'd by specs water spout, it outspeeds and ohkos, as well as having access to roost. Keldeo would have to win like 3 50/50's to win against it.
-Latias and Mega Latias: Same as Latios except more reliable, Mega Latias in particular being an amazing counter and a general underrated pokemon.
-SpDef Gyarados: This is in fact used for things other than countering keldeo. Intimidate and good typing make it an excellent mixed wall all around.

Kit has already gone over that azumarill is actually a counter, but you also ignored several other facts.
-Tangrowth: Assault vest is probably the most common and best set, and alongside regenerator tangrowth is an excellent counter.
-Amoonguss: doesn't care that it gets 3hko'd. All it has to do is click giga drain, as if keldeo stays in the power of water spout gets halved, and if it switches out it can regenerator all the health it lost.
-Venusaur: Physically defensive venusaur actually only has a 5.1% chance to get 2hko'd. Sure, some prior damage makes it a 2hko, but that arguement applies to keldeo too. Stealth rocks reduces the damage of water spout to the point of stealth rocks on venusaur not guaranteeing the 2hko. And spdef not dealing with subcm? lol? Venusaur might come out on low hp but it can definitely deal with it.
-Slowking doesn't really mind scald that much considering regenerator and the fact that psystrike does like 90%

Edit: So as not to double post:

Hahaha.. I'm not arguing here anymore. I've presented my idea. Slapping Assault Vest onto Pokémon and calling them counters is just too funny. Especially when:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%)

Amoonguss is not viable otherwise. Assault Vest Azumarill isn't even a thing (tf, man).

I've only seen Slowking so far as a viable check.

I'll not be posting here regarding this subject anymore. I don't want this suspect to derail the thread again (We all know what happened last time). I just saw something unbalanced in the metagame and wanted to set it straight. Good day.

Assault Vest being slapped onto pokemon with Regenerator is infact a good idea, and assault vest azumarill is most definitely a thing. Amoonguss is viable as a regenerator pivot, and a general counter to waters and electrics other than thundurus. Regenerator gives it the ability to pivot around u-turn and volt switch users without losing hp, stopping stall teams from losing mons to slow whittling.

 

[DinaIsha]

Just to be clear, does only the council get to suspect? Or can frequent players opt for a suspect as well?

And what happens to the Frontier?

Or qualification of sets in C&U?

 

[Lcass4919]

Just to be clear, does only the council get to suspect? Or can frequent players opt for a suspect as well?

well, its not like we are heartless bastards or anything. if people have a big enough following on a potential suspect on the thread, i have little doubt at least one of us will agree and initiate discussion on it. basically "Technically you cant initiate it per se, but you can convince us to do so which is basically the same thing". basically, you cant say "we are suspecting-" but you have every right to say "can we suspect-" correct me if i'm wrong eevee, i'm just guessing this is how it would be. enless you mean "can we decide" then idk

also i don't think the council has anything to do with C and U thread, and i doubt it will change anything.

 

[xJownage]

Hide

[16:29:25] %Kit Kasai: I personally wouldn't mind keldeo being banned
[16:29:29] #Eevee General: it's pretty relevant to a suspect discussion that they BE common
[16:29:36] %Kit Kasai: no...
[16:29:41] %Kit Kasai: they have to be viable
[16:29:44] %Kit Kasai: they don't have to be common
[16:29:47] #Eevee General: otherwise we're just posting unviable sets that don't get used at all for the sake of checking 1 thinkg
[16:29:58] %Kit Kasai: what
[16:30:00] xJownage: Plenty of mons have few viable counters tbh, but that doesn't make them broken
[16:30:01] fedygroot: hey guys
[16:30:03] #Eevee General: so I should run those mons that don't do anything else?
[16:30:07] GummyPotato: rotom inheriting from lantern counters keldeo though :[
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[16:30:17] #Eevee General: I should run jellicent, which otherwise sux?
[16:30:18] xJownage: lanturn has no recover
[16:30:19] xJownage: tho
[16:30:20] fedygroot: happy valentine's day
[16:30:26] sdfsdfjkl: jellicent is good in stabmons
[16:30:27] xJownage: so it can get worn down
[16:30:40] sdfsdfjkl: stallbreaker set beats a lot of things
[16:30:52] #Eevee General: until you remember thundurus is on every team
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[16:31:32] %Kit Kasai: well then you can go ahead and ban it ;-;
[16:31:36] %Kit Kasai: if none of those counters are "viable"
[16:31:42] sdfsdfjkl: banning keldeo is laughable imo
[16:31:43] %Kit Kasai: *checks
[16:31:47] GummyPotato: xjownage then you volt switch because fk staying in
[16:31:56] xJownage: gummy you get worn down
[16:32:08] xJownage: if you switch into thunder you take damage each time
[16:32:19] xJownage: thats why no reliable recovery fucks it
[16:32:24] %Kit Kasai: it just feels rather arbitrary imo
[16:32:36] %Kit Kasai: there are a lot of things in stabmons that have few viable counters
[16:32:40] xJownage: ^^
[16:32:41] #Eevee General: yep
[16:32:42] GummyPotato: but does keldeo really want to get hit with a yummy tbolt
[16:32:45] #Eevee General: and it's time we start clearing them out
[16:32:49] %Kit Kasai: ok
[16:32:55] %Kit Kasai: that makes sense
[16:32:55] xJownage: eevee you will never clean them out without banning mvoes
[16:33:03] %Kit Kasai: that's not really true
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[16:33:18] GummyPotato: or you can just use rotom-h
[16:33:20] #Eevee General: yeah what do you mean ownage?
[16:33:22] GummyPotato: and copy joshice
[16:33:32] xJownage: and without those mons presence stall will be so broken you can't even walk. Stall has reliable everything in stabmons so the only way youbeat it is by overpowering it
[1:33:33] GummyPotato: so u can resist thunder
[16:33:46] xJownage: if you want to take away all the stuff with no counters, you will have no chance to have a balanced metagame
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[16:34:01] %Kit Kasai: what
[16:34:09] xJownage: also based on the past in not banning diggersby and all the other mons that have coveragefest, this makes no sense
[16:34:11] #Eevee General: do you think it's balanced right now?
[16:34:17] xJownage: tbh
[16:34:18] xJownage: yes i do
[16:34:38] xJownage: its as balanced as we could really get it as a stabmons metagame
[16:34:52] xJownage: lets face it, right now all 3 playstyles are very viable
[16:34:57] xJownage: main*
[16:35:02] %Kit Kasai: I'm not extremely well versed in the current stabmons meta
[16:35:17] %Kit Kasai: but to me is seems like offense / balance is extremely matchup reliant right now
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[16:35:26] %Kit Kasai: because of all the extremely strong threats out there
[16:35:27] xJownage: well made stall is consistent as is well made balanced, while HO is matchup reliant like it SHOULD BE
[16:35:43] #Eevee General: idk ownage, i've seen well made stall fall apart because the opp had the right mon
[16:35:47] xJownage: if HO isn't matchup reliant to some extent its broken, sorry
[16:35:56] xJownage: Eevee well made stall is consistent, not perfect
[16:36:01] %Kit Kasai: that makes no sense whatsoever
[16:36:01] xJownage: will never be perfect
[16:36:04] #Eevee General: like IL's stall team crumbles to kyurem-b
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[16:36:12] xJownage: every team should be weak to something
[16:36:14] %Kit Kasai: all good teams are consistent
[16:36:15] #Eevee General: but otherwise it keeps a lot of stuff in check
[16:36:18] xJownage: otherwise we would have assistdon like problems
[16:36:27] %Kit Kasai: that's not how it works...
[16:36:35] xJownage: Every team has to have a weakness or there is no point in using any other team
[16:36:54] xJownage: a well made team wouldn't be able to beat another well made team in your theory, so yeah that is how it works
[16:37:09] %Kit Kasai: my theory?
[16:37:10] xJownage: lets get real: every team can be beaten
[16:37:13] %Kit Kasai: what theory did I provide lol
[16:37:23] %Kit Kasai: well obviously every team can be beaten
[16:37:28] xJownage: the idealist theory i was just kind of throwing on you and ... w/e
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[16:37:39] xJownage: exactly
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[16:37:44] %Kit Kasai: that's where player skill comes in
[16:37:51] xJownage: so just because stall isn't perfectly consistent you are going to say that the meta is unbalanced?
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[16:38:05] %Kit Kasai: just because a team doesn't have any obvious weaknesses doesn't mean it can't be beaten
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[16:38:11] xJownage: sure
[16:38:20] xJownage: but every team has its weaknesses regardless
[16:38:41] xJownage: saying that means that the meta is broken is absolutely laughable
[16:38:51] xJownage: the metagame is pretty balanced right now
[16:39:00] #Eevee General: hm
[16:39:13] xJownage: I don't want to go on about the numerous threats atm that can beat every mon in the game with the right move
[16:39:30] xJownage: its part of what makes stabmons fun
[16:39:31] Deathly The King: I would like stabmons but diggersby is ew. This doesn't pertain to the current conversation much, I just wanted to say how much Ihate diggersby.
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[16:39:49] xJownage: skill-based, but requires creativity and intelligence to beat stuff
[16:39:57] xJownage: since your team is always weak to some mon / core
[16:40:19] Deathly The King: besides there is too much blue in chat
[16:40:26] Deathly The King: Green master race
[16:40:27] xJownage: nice combo-breaker lol
[16:40:29] %Kit Kasai: stabmons is a very check-reliant meta
[16:40:35] xJownage: its more like I just say everything
[16:40:38] xJownage: yes kit
[16:40:40] %Kit Kasai: since there are no counters
[16:40:44] xJownage: to so much
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[16:41:05] xJownage: if we want to ban all the mons that have no true counters we would be unappealing to newcomers
[16:41:11] %Kit Kasai: yeah like you said I don't know if it's really necessary to change that
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[16:41:14] %Kit Kasai: as it's the nature of the meta
[16:41:15] xJownage: because the banlist would be abou 20 mons long
[16:41:34] #Eevee General: boo hoo if the anlist is long
[16:41:38] #Eevee General: *banlist
[16:41:38] %Kit Kasai: it just goes back to the question to what extent do we want to make the meta "balanced"
[16:41:44] xJownage: eevee thats not the point
[16:41:47] %Kit Kasai: ou has a long banlist
[16:41:48] %Kit Kasai: lol
[16:42:07] #Eevee General: stabmons is always going to be a niche meta
[16:42:14] #Eevee General: why not cater to the ppl who stay and play it?
[16:42:20] xJownage: but besides, if we want to keep a decent playerbase and a ladder having a giant banlist of all the shit that has no true counters, it won'twork
[16:2:29] %Kit Kasai: why not
[16:42:36] xJownage: eevee the list of bans is so long
[16:42:40] %Kit Kasai: also the banlist wouldn't be that long
[16:42:45] xJownage: we will be banning things until the next pokemon game comes out
[16:42:46] %Kit Kasai: and as eevee said who cares if the banlist is long
[16:42:52] %Kit Kasai: that's what OU does lol
[16:42:58] %Kit Kasai: that's what literally every meta does
[16:42:59] xJownage: Kit we still want to appeal to newcomers and get them in the meta
[16:43:03] xJownage: since meta influx is important
[16:43:11] xJownage: everybody plays a meta for a little while and then gets away from it
[16:43:27] %Kit Kasai: hm
[16:43:34] xJownage: regardless this is off-topic
[16:43:35] %Kit Kasai: so how does a meta filled with uncounterable threats
[16:43:39] %Kit Kasai: appeal to newcomers
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[16:43:48] xJownage: kit its the reativity they have
[16:43:49] %Kit Kasai: it's not really off topic
[16:43:50] xJownage: creativity*
[16:43:59] %Kit Kasai: how is that creative though
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[16:44:07] %Kit Kasai: like dinaisha said
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[16:44:09] xJownage: when you first heard of stabmons
[16:44:14] xJownage: what did you do?
[16:44:14] %Kit Kasai: you throw out keld and press water spout
[16:44:17] #Eevee General: the creativity will not die with bans
[16:44:24] #Eevee General: ???
[16:44:26] %Kit Kasai: ^
[16:44:27] xJownage: but it will make it harder on newcomers
[16:44:30] #Eevee General: how?
[16:44:34] %Kit Kasai: if anything
[16:44:35] xJownage: who go "i have great idea" and then see banned
[16:44:37] #Eevee General: sorry you just can't use keldeo
[16:44:40] %Kit Kasai: the bans will allow more creativity
[16:44:41] #Eevee General: try another water-type
[16:44:46] xJownage: this isn't about keldeo tbh
[16:44:49] %Kit Kasai: because there are more viable mons
[16:44:56] #Eevee General: ownage your argument is really grasping tbh
[16:45:05] xJownage: this will lead to tons of bans using "hard to counter" as an argument tbh
[16:45:14] xJownage: either way we are so far off-topic its funny
[16:45:19] %Kit Kasai: hard to counter != impossible to counter
[16:45:19] #Eevee General: slippery slope is also a terrible argument
[16:45:35] xJownage: and kit nothing in the meta is impossible to counter
[16:45:46] xJownage: the point is the metagame is pretty balanced atm
[16:45:57] xJownage: its not super stale and we aren't seeing the same teams over and over
[16:46:02] xJownage: its diverse
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[16:46:08] NikolaTess: what meta?
[16:46:11] xJownage: teambuilding skill is rewarding
[16:46:11] %Kit Kasai: stabmons
[16:46:18] %Kit Kasai: we are discussing the state of the stabmons meta
[16:46:21] xJownage: skill is rewarding
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[16:46:22] #Eevee General: i'll admit, it is fairly balanced
glad its not red joined
[16:46:26] xJownage: so why change?
[16:46:36] xJownage: when there is 1 class of several mons
[16:46:37] %Kit Kasai: what even is balance
[16:46:41] #Eevee General: because if there is a bad seed, get rid of it
[16:46:41] xJownage: that are all at the same effectiveness
[16:46:46] xJownage: there isn't a bad seeds
[16:46:54] xJownage: there are a ton of centralizing seeds tbh
[16:47:05] Fergus1999: Hello guys I am back
[16:47:08] xJownage: hi
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[16:47:32] xJownage: eevee its less so because of bad seeds than it is of seeds that are hard to deal with
[16:47:41] %Kit Kasai: what's the difference
[16:47:55] xJownage: how does stall handle mega gardevoir + bisharp in OU while retaining the ability to check all the common threats?
[16:48:20] %Kit Kasai: victini happens to check both of them
[16:48:30] xJownage: says hi to the word check
[16:48:32] %Kit Kasai: and counters garde
[16:48:46] xJownage: doesn't counter garde
[16:48:55] xJownage: its soft since defensive vic isn't hard to switch into
[16:49:01] xJownage: and it has no reliable recovery
[16:49:19] xJownage: off-topic again
[16:49:25] GummyPotato: super fang misses more than it should
[16:49:27] %Kit Kasai: this time it's actually off topic
[16:49:38] xJownage: but you see my point: theres always a core that fucks a certain team or playstyle
[16:49:45] xJownage: we just have to suck it up and deal with it
[16:50:01] %Kit Kasai: what if there's a mon that fucks up all playstyles
[16:50:08] %Kit Kasai: do we suck it up and deal with it too?
[16:50:17] xJownage: yeap
[16:50:22] xJownage: there are plenty of mons that do that too
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[16:50:44] xJownage: subcm keldeo in OU, for example, does it even better than it does in stabmon
[16:50:54] xJownage: also lum DD Gyarados
[16:51:06] xJownage: Lum dd gyara fucks up all playstyles in OU atm
[16:51:14] %Kit Kasai: those have actual viable checks / counters
[16:51:15] xJownage: but it has opportunity cost and requires support
[16:51:18] xJownage: same with keldeo
[16:51:26] xJownage: what counters lum dd gyara
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[16:51:49] xJownage: which can pack a variety of coverage
[16:51:51] %Kit Kasai: ferro?
[16:51:52] %Kit Kasai: rotom?
[16:51:54] %Kit Kasai: idk
[16:52:00] xJownage: ferro has sub
[16:52:10] xJownage: rotom has to deal with sub against wisp and lum
[16:52:44] xJownage: and it can also use stone edge / ice fang / etc

Interesting conversation from yesterday that showed my view on the issue. Stabmons is a meta of checking threats rather than hard countering them, and there are a multitude of threats with very few true viable counters. This has always been the case; from diggersby to ttar to kyu-b, many mons can quickly and efficiently dispose of their counters to become unstoppable. Team matchup is a big deal, sorry but thats how it works. Its not like its luck based though, because have you noticed that a good player like me, kit, unfixable, and the many others (not denouncing them) consistently have success in the tier? The metagame is actually as healthy as we can get it atm.
Like I said, there is an opportunity cost in using keldeo that can override the mons brokenness to begin with. There are examples from other metagames where mons just don't have true counters but aren't so bad that we don't use them. To be honest, this is natural to many metagames. Stabmons is a metagame where you have to deal with unusual threats on every battle. Keldeo doesn't 6-0 every playstyle with no support, it needs hazard support and counters to common revenge killers that are reliable and consistent, which limits Keldeo builds. If you want to go into more mons that have few true counters, just hop over to AAA and take a look at some threats over there. A lot of their threats are only revenge killed at best, however the opportunity cost for using them is too high and therefore they aren't overused. Its just how it works.

There are threats that are hard to counter, and that is native to the STABmons metagame. Countering Keldeo is only as hard as diggersby, kyu-b, or maybe heatran; we just have to suck it up and deal with it.

If you are complaining about the metagame being unbalanced, I am having a laugh. The metagame is as balanced and skill-based as a stabmons metagame can really get, and tbh I am pretty proud of the way the metagame is shaped. Stall, Offense, Balance, and all the playstyles in between are viable and commonly used, and are almost even in effectiveness. There is no reason to change the metagame atm, and I see banning Keldeo as looking at a wall of calcs and getting worried. There are bigger things I am worried about when I am making a team, chief among them Diggersby, to where I have little interest in this petty argument. I have given my final thoughts on the subject.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

This is actually kinda... weird imo. Until now, most of the pokes that are suspected are the ones from S rank in Viability Rankings.

There was Greninja in OU and Mega Metagross now. Both were S rank in viability rankings.

There are Diggersby and Serperior now in Inverse. Both are S ranks.

Also Primal Groudon in BH because of the Assist/Thousand Arrows thing.

STABmons Keldeo isn't even S rank in viability ranking. It isn't even A+.

What I'm asking is, why people call it "broken" when it isn't even metagame defining?

 

[skies]

This is actually kinda... weird imo. Until now, most of the pokes that are suspected are the ones from S rank in Viability Rankings.

There was Greninja in OU and Mega Metagross now. Both were S rank in viability rankings.

There are Diggersby and Serperior now in Inverse. Both are S ranks.

Also Primal Groudon in BH because of the Assist/Thousand Arrows thing.

STABmons Keldeo isn't even S rank in viability ranking. It isn't even A+.

What I'm asking is, why people call it "broken" when it isn't even metagame defining?

Just for clarification, S Rank ≠ Suspect. I believe there was a suspect test last generation in OU where the Pokemon was only A+, can't recall which it was though. Keldeo was also brought up recently to move all the way up to A+ Rank for what it's worth. But, a Pokemon can be broken without being S Rank.

 

[EV]

I'll share some more thoughts I posted in the council discussion so you guys can see them too.

One half of my argument was Keldeo has an extremely skewed risk:reward ratio, second only to Diggersby probably. And that's with just two types, whereas Diggersby must juggle coverage to be truly threatening to enough of the metagame.

The other half was in answer to a question: will the metagame be worse off with it gone? You can argue yes with Diggersby, an argument which has saved it twice from being banned. But Keldeo? Will the things it beats suddenly run rampant in its absence? Is its presence balancing? I say no. Removing Keldeo will mean we have one less threat to prepare for and ease some of the matchup reliance issues facing the meta right now.

 

[Pagoose]

I'll share some more thoughts I posted in the council discussion so you guys can see them too.

One half of my argument was Keldeo has an extremely skewed risk:reward ratio, second only to Diggersby probably. And that's with just two types, whereas Diggersby must juggle coverage to be truly threatening to enough of the metagame.

The other half was in answer to a question: will the metagame be worse off with it gone? You can argue yes with Diggersby, an argument which has saved it twice from being banned. But Keldeo? Will the things it beats suddenly run rampant in its absence? Is its presence balancing? I say no. Removing Keldeo will mean we have one less threat to prepare for and ease some of the matchup reliance issues facing the meta right now.

Risk:Reward Ratio is not a good reason to ban it, especially considering how arbitrary it is. Pretty much every mon in S or A+ rank has excellent Risk:Reward, a good percentage of which I would argue better than keldeo. We ban things if they are broken, such as Mega Mawile, or if they centralize the metagame to the point where lots of things are unviable because of it, such as Aegislash. Keldeo does not fulfil either of those requirements, nor does it have a combination of the two like greninja did. Some people in the xJownage's conversation were acting like keldeo has no good counters, even xJownage who was arguing for it not to be banned. Keldeo has plenty of viable counters as we have seen in the last page of this thread. There are tons more pokemon with less counters than keldeo, including heatran, thundurus, diggersby, landorus, aegislash, both charizards, mega scizor, choice band azumarill, mixed mega tyranitar, aerodactyl-mega, greninja etc etc etc. Gtg now but just a few days ago you didnt even think it was A+ worthy, what changed?

Just for clarification, S Rank ≠ Suspect. I believe there was a suspect test last generation in OU where the Pokemon was only A+, can't recall which it was though. Keldeo was also brought up recently to move all the way up to A+ Rank for what it's worth. But, a Pokemon can be broken without being S Rank.

It was Tornadus-T btw. But that was only one pokemon, and it was broken because of permanent rain. Tornadus-T without a politoed was only an A rank mon, but tornadus-t with politoed was broken. imo they should've banned politoed/drizzle, but I wasnt around then so meh.

 

[Throbulator36]

I'd like to address the attitude of the community in regards to treating Jellicent like a useless piece of garbage.
One reason for which it is so is that it's a bulky water with recovery. Just that alone makes it somewhat viable.

Second reason is that its standard defensive set in UU actually checks diggersby(standard set of fakespeed/earthquake/uturn).

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 101-119 (25 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

over three turns diggs does a maximum of (assuming no crits and WoW hits)117.7% out of 112.5% meaning that diggs has to be really lucky to actually take out jellicent that third turn. Jell then recovers and=win.

Although this does require a lot of luck to actually work and is utterly destroyed by diggs' 2nd most standard set of fakespeed/earthquake/Koff so Jell is still only a max of C-rank but the point was to prove Jell isn't useless shit to laugh at.

 

[EV]

I'd like to address the attitude of the community in regards to treating Jellicent like a useless piece of garbage.
One reason for which it is so is that it's a bulky water with recovery. Just that alone makes it somewhat viable.

Second reason is that its standard defensive set in UU actually checks diggersby(standard set of fakespeed/earthquake/uturn).

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 101-119 (25 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

over three turns diggs does a maximum of (assuming no crits and WoW hits)117.7% out of 112.5% meaning that diggs has to be really lucky to actually take out jellicent that third turn. Jell then recovers and=win.

Although this does require a lot of luck to actually work and is utterly destroyed by diggs' 2nd most standard set of fakespeed/earthquake/Koff so Jell is still only a max of C-rank but the point was to prove Jell isn't useless shit to laugh at.

Diggersby switches out of Jellicent, that or Precipice Blades 2HKOs. Knock Off is probably more common than U-turn btw.

Checked: (Stats in order from 0 - 1760)
Knock Off 24.802% | | U-turn 5.468%
Knock Off 25.006% | | U-turn 6.568%
Knock Off 24.466% | | U-turn 13.108%
Knock Off 42.177% | | U-turn 10.205%

 

[Throbulator36]

Diggersby switches out of Jellicent, that or Precipice Blades 2HKOs. Knock Off is probably more common than U-turn btw.

Checked: (Stats in order from 0 - 1760)
Knock Off 24.802% | | U-turn 5.468%
Knock Off 25.006% | | U-turn 6.568%
Knock Off 24.466% | | U-turn 13.108%
Knock Off 42.177% | | U-turn 10.205%

I know it's more common but the "standard set" I was using is the one you called the "standard set" I also never said it was a great pokemon. Also, diggs would never switch out of it before getting burnt. Also Earthquake 2HKOs a large percentage of the time.

 

[skies]

Fourth Of July (Tentacruel) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 164 SpD / 80 Spe
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Clear Smog
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes / Giga Drain
​

Tentacruel is my latest experimentation and I've been enjoying it so much! This is my team-tailored set and has been putting in exceptional work. My main reason for use is its ability to check Keldeo, and its nice bulk and resistances. It formed a perfect core with Mega Sableye, another Pokemon I've been utilizing. Anyways, I've been digging Tentacruel of all things because of its unique typing and movepool. Rapid Spin is very helpful on my team, based around hazard stall, and Defog would be a huge detriment. Clear Smog is useful on defensively-oriented teams because it means that they do not have to worry about set up sweepers getting in the way. Scald places a great deal of pressure on the opponent, and it makes it difficult to switch into Tentacruel without worry of the burn. The last slot is an iffy one, but I've decided to give the edge to Toxic Spikes. Toxic Spikes stall is a legit threat and I've been enjoying watching the opponent dwindle down to nothing! Giga Drain, however, allows Tentacruel to completely beat Keldeo and provides another form of recovery which Tentacruel really needs.

The EVs are all for a purpose. Running 248 HP / 16 Def allows Tentacruel to switch in to Keldeo's Secret Sword and entirely avoid the 2HKO, forming a 3HKO. 80 Speed EVs allow Tentacruel to outspeed Diggersby and hit it with Scald in a time of need, and anything below Diggersby. 164 Special Defense EVs are the filler, but are placed into Special Defense so Tentacruel can take on the heavy hitting Special Attackers. Check this out, running 164 Special Defense EVs also allows Tentacruel to have a fair chance of living Landorus's Earth Power! Should it stay in? No. But, it does go to show how specially bulky Tentacruel is! Tentacruel is also an excellent check to Togekiss. Due to Liquid Ooze, Togekiss will actually lose around 140 HP - 164 HP, not gain! Oblivion Wing is only a mere 2HKO that is not even guaranteed, and Togekiss gets smacked by Clear Smog in the process, therefore wasting the Geomancy and losing in the end.

The best partner for Tentacruel that I've tested is Mega Sableye. Mega Sableye is equipped to take on Ground- and Pyschic-type moves easily for Tentacruel, while in return Tentacruel fully stops Fairy-types. Mega Sableye deflects detrimental status and blocks Rapid Spin as well, making them a great duo. Mega Sableye also struggles with Keldeo, and Tentacruel mitigates this. Clefable is also an excellent partner because of their defensive typings, and Clefable can keep Tentacruel healthy via Wish or Heal Bell. I've also been using Tangrowth alongside it because Tangrowth completely handles Ground- and Electric-type Pokemon for Tentacruel and Tentacruel takes on Poison-, Fire-, Bug-, and Ice-types for Tangrowth. The synergy between the two is excellent! Finally, I've also been using Landorus-Therian as a partner due to its ability to take on Ground- and Electric-type attacks aimed at Tentacruel and enjoys the Water- and Ice-type resist that Tentacruel brings to the table. Tentacruel truly has great synergy with a lot of defensive Pokemon!

Now, Tentacruel does have a few downfalls. Firstly, its lack of recovery is a major hit. Being a wall that is reliant on Wishpassing is kind of not so good, and Tentacruel is supposed to be taking on some very strong hits. Tentacruel's only recovery is Black Sludge, or Rain Dish in Rain I guess. Secondly, Tentacruel suffers from its typing as well as its incredible resistances. Ground-types, namely Landorus-T and Diggersby, are very common, and can take advantage of Tentacruel's weakness. They do have to watch out for Scald, however, but they'll often win. Tentacruel suffers from just sitting there, really, even if it does have Clear Smog, it just doesn't do much but spam Scald and that's not-so-great. Tentacruel faces competition as a Poison-type wall from Amoonguss, but it does have the edge over it by being a great Togekiss check.

Overall, Tentacruel is a very good Pokemon and I've not been seeing it often -- go out and use it!

 

[Ghoul King]

Risk:Reward Ratio is not a good reason to ban it, especially considering how arbitrary it is. Pretty much every mon in S or A+ rank has excellent Risk:Reward, a good percentage of which I would argue better than keldeo.

I just wanted to point out that excellent risk:reward ratio kind of is a defining feature of a broken or overcentralizing Pokemon: if it has no risk and tremendous reward, it's gone past "really really good" to essentially unfightably good -among other points you can't have multiple zero risk high reward Pokemon in a single meta because the very definition of the risk:reward ratio consideration is that you are getting in "work" very reliably at no or very little cost, without regard to what your opponent does. Multiple Pokemon that are amazing can push each other's risk:reward ratio more toward risk, but they cannot all be riskless or virtually riskless. If a Pokemon can come in on another Pokemon and get stuff done without fear, then the first Pokemon carries risk of exactly that happening -whereas a zero-risk Pokemon must, by definition, be in a position that the opponent cannot do anything to take advantage of you bringing in said Pokemon.

Whether Keldeo constitutes such a Pokemon I am not in any position to comment on -I hate the thing, but that's not the same thing as saying "I think it's broken"- but the argument that "Risk:Reward Ratio is not a good reason to ban it" is flat-out wrong. Bans are always about the risk:reward ratio being too far tilted toward reward with little or no risk.

 

[DinaIsha]

I would say Tentacruel is good, but it's niche. It may come off as a surprise, especially effective with Toxic Spikes, but as already mentioned, the presence of Precipice Blades does it no good. Even Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Diggersby's Precipice Blades (Since it no longer has Prankster, it can't priority burn).

One more topic I'd like to touch up on is the rising need for wallbreaking in STABmons: Specifically Banded Crawdaunt.

Dark Knight (Crawdaunt) @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Waterfall/Water Shurikens
- Parting Shot/Sucker Punch

I've notice recently how effective stall has become or rather how necessary it has become in the Meta. And so it becomes even more necessary to break your opponent's walls before they break yours.

Who better to wallbreak than our very own Pincer Man? The idea is to let your walls carry a momentum move (UTurn Landorus-T or Baton Pass Chansey) and park this monstrosity up against the opponent's unassuming wall.

I don't have to explain how to use the moves, but Pursuit severely hampers an opposing Chansey, who has shot up in usage recently. It of course traps Psychics and Ghosts. Waterfall will take care of pretty much everything in the Meta (Quagsire is 2HKOed). For everything else, there's Knock Off. Parting Shot is also wonderful to maintain the same, much needed momentum.

Best utilized in stall teams alongside a good revenger like Diggersby or Setup sweeper like Kyurem-B for synergy.

I mean to make a post in the C&U thread, but I'm too lazy right now to tweak EVs and make calculations. Perhaps later.

 

[skies]

DinaIsha Have you considered Sucker Punch? Also, Water Shuriken > Aqua Jet, for higher damage output most of the time.

 

[DinaIsha]

DinaIsha Have you considered Sucker Punch? Also, Water Shuriken > Aqua Jet, for higher damage output most of the time.

Man, I'm too sleepy. Yeah, Water Shurikens over Aqua Jet. All the Attacking moves are indispensable. I'd slash Sucker Punch with Parting Shot, but it's pretty great as well. Momentum is the best way to grab wins in STABmons.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

DinaIsha Have you considered Sucker Punch? Also, Water Shuriken > Aqua Jet, for higher damage output most of the time.

Being locked into band sucker is also pretty bad. I'd rather keep Knock off/Parting Shot to win against certain mons. as for Speed EVs I think running 252 is better? Craw is not exactly the bulkiest pokemon and it is still dented fairly easy. Atleast run 164 EVs to outspeed bulky mega scizor I guess

 

[xJownage]

I'll share some more thoughts I posted in the council discussion so you guys can see them too.

One half of my argument was Keldeo has an extremely skewed risk:reward ratio, second only to Diggersby probably. And that's with just two types, whereas Diggersby must juggle coverage to be truly threatening to enough of the metagame.

The other half was in answer to a question: will the metagame be worse off with it gone? You can argue yes with Diggersby, an argument which has saved it twice from being banned. But Keldeo? Will the things it beats suddenly run rampant in its absence? Is its presence balancing? I say no. Removing Keldeo will mean we have one less threat to prepare for and ease some of the matchup reliance issues facing the meta right now.

The argument over the metagame running rampant in the absence of diggersby was never a decent argument to begin with, and was at best support, whereas anybody can tell you its a shitty argument anyways. Saying that thats justification for banning Keldeo and not Diggersby is display of bias imo.
Ease the matchup reliance? Matchup Reliance is what stabmons is all about for one, and by your slippery slope logic of secondary effects being a reason to ban keldeo and not diggersby, several suspects or bans would likely take place using the precedent of the Keldeo ban.

 

[EV]

The argument over the metagame running rampant in the absence of diggersby was never a decent argument to begin with, and was at best support, whereas anybody can tell you its a shitty argument anyways. Saying that thats justification for banning Keldeo and not Diggersby is display of bias imo.
Ease the matchup reliance? Matchup Reliance is what stabmons is all about for one, and by your slippery slope logic of secondary effects being a reason to ban keldeo and not diggersby, several suspects or bans would likely take place using the precedent of the Keldeo ban.

?_?
I cannot understand half of what you're saying. Did you even read my post by the way?

Diggersby gone = one less threat to prepare for and harder to check setup
Keldeo gone = one less threat to prepare for
What does Keldeo do other than require you carry a Keldeo counter?

What I'm saying is the metagame will not be worse without Keldeo. It will be (ideally) better, which is what bans try to accomplish.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Eruption
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Energy Ball

Eruption on this thing is wallbreakingly ridiculous. Some calcs:

252+ SpA Chandelure Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 158-186 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 363-427 (116.3 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 153-180 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Eruption (150 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 237-279 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Kit Kasai]

I think one thing we need to realize is that "there are plenty of other pokemon that have no counters" is not a valid reason to not ban a pokemon. Whether or not there are other broken pokemon does not make a certain pokemon any less broken. The whole point of a suspect is to analyze whether or not a pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame, and if there are other pokemon that are just as, if not more broken, that should not interfere with the current suspect. Ultimately, the goal is to rid the metagame of all of these unhealthy threats, but just saying "that's how the meta is" doesn't help anything.

 

[Throbulator36]

?_?
I cannot understand half of what you're saying. Did you even read my post by the way?

Diggersby gone = one less threat to prepare for and harder to check setup
Keldeo gone = one less threat to prepare for
What does Keldeo do other than require you carry a Keldeo counter?

What I'm saying is the metagame will not be worse without Keldeo. It will be (ideally) better, which is what bans try to accomplish.

Actually if you're gonna analyze it like that it'd be

Diggersby gone = one less threat to prepare for and harder to check setup
Keldeo gone = one less threat to prepare for and harder to deal with stall

because neither one is absolutely necessary for their job but both are really good at it(to the point of possibly being broken)

examples of pokemon almost as good at the jobs: braviary, heatran