Metagame STABmons

Wishes explicitly mentioned rapid spin in the first slot. The importable has FakeSpeed.
Yes. I recommend Rapid Spin. For the particular team of that importable, I had Defog Landorus-T anyways, so I went with Fake Out instead. Use whichever works best for your team. Rapid Spin is better, but if the entry hazard removal is already in place, run Fake Out.
 
Yes. I recommend Rapid Spin. For the particular team of that importable, I had Defog Landorus-T anyways, so I went with Fake Out instead. Use whichever works best for your team. Rapid Spin is better, but if the entry hazard removal is already in place, run Fake Out.
Alright, thanks for clearing that up. Maybe make Rapid Spin the primary option and slash Fake Out?
 
... anyways.

Braviary is stronk, has the priority, doesn't afraid of Intimidate or King's Shield. Stuff you should already know. But specifically, I've had success running it with Focus Sash -- it doesn't need a boosting item to deal serious damage to offensive teams, and Focus Sash allows you to set up or spam Dragon Ascent a lot more freely than its low Speed would normally allow.

All it really needs in terms of support is hazard control -- moreso than other Braviaries, that is. It won't win games on its own, but it performs pretty consistently when the opponent doesn't have a hard counter to it.

Importable (pick the nature that suits you):

Braviary @ Focus Sash
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Ascent
- Superpower

Smaller aside: if Mega Lopunny is a problem for your team, Static Zapdos doesn't necessarily even need to be awake to check it. I like Expert Belt to make sure Oblivion Wing OHKOs Mega Lop... dunno how much SpA investment that requires though. Also it gives Tapu Koko a free switch-in so make sure you've got that covered.
 
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dynamite (Charizard-Mega-X) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 188 HP / 8 Atk / 172 Def / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Lash
- Earthquake

here's a really cool and fun charizard-x set to run! the evs may seem wonky, so allow me to explain them to you. the speed allows you to reach the crucial speed of 406, whereas lopunny-mega only reaches 405. also means outspeed tapu koko. speaking of tapu koko, this counters it fully. the ev spread lets it avoid a 2hko from cb bolt strike, which means it can tank any physical attack weaker than that (pro-tip, there's a ton). for example, lopunny-mega's extreme speed does 36.6% at max damage. the strongest relevant extreme speed is choice band diggersby, which does only 68.3% max damage. that's just to put into perspective how crazy bulky this thing is. it may seem weird to not run impish and the less defense evs for more attack evs, but i've tried the spread i just described and it gives charizard-x three less attack points. so, this is a minimal, but superior spread to run. it's important to note that this is a wrecking ball that needs to roll itself up to actually smash through the opponent. you could run like... v-create or flare blitz > fire lash, but i like the fire lash drop since it completely neuters switch ins. like it lets it muscle right through rotom-w and ignore the strength sap, while not needing to afford a second to even set up. so it's a pretty cool move! earthquake is just excellent coverage really, nothing more. you could run like dragon claw or substitute if you want. give the set a try!
I tried this set and a Koko 2hkoed me T_T
 
I tried this set and a Koko 2hkoed me T_T
Here, my guy, use the new and improved dynamite set, reinvented by yours truly:

dynamite (Charizard-Mega-X) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Lash
- Earthquake

This perfectly tailored EV spread allows dynamite to tank two Choice Band Play Roughs from Tapu Koko [252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 148-175 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO], and have a really good chance of living two Bolt Strikes in Electric Terrain [252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Charizard-Mega-X in Electric Terrain: 160-189 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO]. Now, if you get 2HKO'd you have a justified reason to call your opponent some mean words and immediately forfeit. The Speed allows you to outspeed Koko after a DD, but not Lopunny, but with the EVs you have a very good chance of living two HJK's, and you definitely live 2 E-Speeds, and an HJK + E-Speed combo. To put this set into perspective, wishes' spread takes 68% max from CB Diggersby's Extreme Speed whereas this spread takes 60%.
 
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Magnezone @ Steelium Z
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
I am loving this set right now, credits to RNGisfatal for making a great set. At first i neglected this because i thought zone is shit in STAB and this might be a meme but i wanted to try out Magnezone in my new team and this set came to my mind. After incorporating this set in my team my rating flew from low 1100's to 1400's before dropping to mid 1300's and every game this set did considerable work for me. Magnezone not only helps eliminate Skarmory, Celesteela and Ferrothorn which is an immense support and relief for Koko, M-Lop and my boy Barbaracle. Doom Desire hits like a truck and Magnezone has a good amount of switch-ins in the current meta and Doom Desire saved my ass a couple of times when it did almost 45% to an AV Alolan Muk allowing me to kill it with +2 Thunderbolt and OHKO'ing a Yanmega behind Reflect and Light Screen after i defogged them away on the same turn - Gottem. But the real beauty of this set is that in games or situations where i don't see real use of zone, i can be suicidal with this set since 200 BP Corkscrew Crash dents so much things that it's amusing.

Bonus points for being savage and going for the Z-move on the face of a Garchomp and/or Lando-T who obviously go for rocks 9 times out of 10.
252+ SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 418-493 (109.4 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (200 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 411-484 (98.5 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Tl;dr Use this guy if your team needs it and annoying steels need to get rid of. Use with some Heavy Physical attackers which appreciate steels and Chomp/Lando gone such as M-Lop and Tapu Koko for that extra special late game sweep.
 

I've played STABmons for some days now and I might not be as good as most people since I'm relatively new this generation but tbh I still don't know why Tapu Koko isn't banned. Seriously, I might be repeating a lot of stuff that has been said in the thread before and they might have been answered but I do need or have to repeat them. Honestly, Tapu Koko is just a great Pokemon in STABmons, it has plethora of sets ranging from Life Orb, Choice Scarf to Choice Band and even more, this makes Tapu Koko unpredictable and able to pressure the opponent in a way that no other Pokemon can. It is able to easily cause havoc from the first time it enters the field. Choice Scarf Tapu Koko checks easily the faster Pokemon used to check it while Choice Band goes through bulkier Pokemon, while Life orb gives it more power without being locked into a move. Plus, its ability in Electric Surge summons Electric Terrain which even gives it further power. Now People might say that there's Ground-type Pokemon but let's not forget that Tapu Koko's perfectly tailored movepool has access to both Play Rough and U-Turn that either cause damage to these Ground-type Pokemon hindering them or just switch out to a more favorable matchup thanks to U-turn. Also with the correct teammates, Tapu Koko's checks are more and more pressured as they are either too weakened to check it or even removed. This Pokemon has the power to 2HKO or OHKO a majority of the metagame and has limited amount of checks which restrict teambuilding to an extent. Playing against Tapu Koko is never fun.
 

I've played STABmons for some days now and I might not be as good as most people since I'm relatively new this generation but tbh I still don't know why Tapu Koko isn't banned. Seriously, I might be repeating a lot of stuff that has been said in the thread before and they might have been answered but I do need or have to repeat them. Honestly, Tapu Koko is just a great Pokemon in STABmons, it has plethora of sets ranging from Life Orb, Choice Scarf to Choice Band and even more, this makes Tapu Koko unpredictable and able to pressure the opponent in a way that no other Pokemon can. It is able to easily cause havoc from the first time it enters the field. Choice Scarf Tapu Koko checks easily the faster Pokemon used to check it while Choice Band goes through bulkier Pokemon, while Life orb gives it more power without being locked into a move. Plus, its ability in Electric Surge summons Electric Terrain which even gives it further power. Now People might say that there's Ground-type Pokemon but let's not forget that Tapu Koko's perfectly tailored movepool has access to both Play Rough and U-Turn that either cause damage to these Ground-type Pokemon hindering them or just switch out to a more favorable matchup thanks to U-turn. Also with the correct teammates, Tapu Koko's checks are more and more pressured as they are either too weakened to check it or even removed. This Pokemon has the power to 2HKO or OHKO a majority of the metagame and has limited amount of checks which restrict teambuilding to an extent. Playing against Tapu Koko is never fun.
I mean this already has been went over in this thread a ton of times already? Tapu koko is an excellent pokemon, but not broken. Dont act like all counterplay is nonexistant cause of u-turn, theres ways to even punish u-turn

A few things can help you if youre really struggling with this mon

1)Rocky helmet landorus, can punish u-turning of tapu koko, while play rough doesnt do crap to it. U can argue that it can run hipce for lando but they 80% of the time they run brave bird (from what ive seen). If they do u can scout for it anyways

252 Atk Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Ground: 88-104 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO

thats only with full health, so u dont even to fully invest in defense to check it

2) all relevant fake speeders 1hko koko and pressure kokos teammates immensely (this is really important, fake speed spam is very relevant and koko struggles with it)

3) scarfers, theres lot of scarfers that easily ohko koko, scarf lando is a good one especially since its usually defensive so they might not see it coming

4) sticky webs, scolipede and silvally in particular are good users and invalidate tapu kokos speed if u manage to keep webs on the field

5) well for a surefire memey way, u can use eject button whatever into scarf dugtrio to remove it from existence, it also traps hoopa and other threats


Of course theres alot of defensive threats like ferrothorn, steelix to cockblock it, but u complained of u-turn so i told u the offensive ways of dealing with it, hope this helps kinda?
 
Start using Landorus T, Mega Steelix or Ferrothorn on every single one of your teams and you will have no problems. Other counters are not useful in the metagame (Nidoqueen is useless apart from countering TK, for example.) Checks are not sufficient for it, because it kills everything, as you said.
 
I mean this already has been went over in this thread a ton of times already? Tapu koko is an excellent pokemon, but not broken. Dont act like all counterplay is nonexistant cause of u-turn, theres ways to even punish u-turn

A few things can help you if youre really struggling with this mon

1)Rocky helmet landorus, can punish u-turning of tapu koko, while play rough doesnt do crap to it. U can argue that it can run hipce for lando but they 80% of the time they run brave bird (from what ive seen). If they do u can scout for it anyways

252 Atk Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Ground: 88-104 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO

thats only with full health, so u dont even to fully invest in defense to check it

2) all relevant fake speeders 1hko koko and pressure kokos teammates immensely (this is really important, fake speed spam is very relevant and koko struggles with it)

3) scarfers, theres lot of scarfers that easily ohko koko, scarf lando is a good one especially since its usually defensive so they might not see it coming

4) sticky webs, scolipede and silvally in particular are good users and invalidate tapu kokos speed if u manage to keep webs on the field

5) well for a surefire memey way, u can use eject button whatever into scarf dugtrio to remove it from existence, it also traps hoopa and other threats


Of course theres alot of defensive threats like ferrothorn, steelix to cockblock it, but u complained of u-turn so i told u the offensive ways of dealing with it, hope this helps kinda?
1) Yes Lando is a good check to Koko. This one I agree with. Everyone sleeps on the specs set though, which murders Lando. Silvally without Defensive evs however, is not.
252 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO.... when running calcs its best to either go worst case scenario (Band) or most common (Life Orb I think?), and you went... scarf ig? Yeh no.
2) Nobody has ever claimed Koko wasn't possible to revenge. No fakespeeder except possibly a sublimely predicted Diggersby wants to switch in (maybe Sylveon for a Special set), which means Koko has already killed something and done its job and can switch out and be pivoted back in at a later date.
3) Some scarfers can switch in im sure. Most can't.
4) Koko can act as a good antilead to Sticky Web teams. Brave Bird kills a bunch of the setters, and if you're scared of sash, Koko gets Taunt. I've lost to Koko teams with webs because of this. also cuz ihhca isthe stabman ;-;
5)lol. also better hope you're sash isn't broken or they're locked into an electric move cuz Koko outspeeds you (good place to mention that Koko has an AMAZING speed tier because I haven't yet). Also if they trigger Eject button with U-turn your entire strat goes down the drain. I don't think this was supposed to be actually good though so no judgement.

In regards to 2 and 3, where I feel like I didn't have much to say. Being able to revenge kill something does not make it not broken double negative op.

In regards to one, Koko can beat most of its checks with the right actually viable move or set. Just cuz the ladder is bad and runs slight variations on one set doesn't mean we should ignore the other possibilities.

All that being said we had a vote and it ended and Koko isn't banned so unless the council is open to resuspecting I suggest we drop it.
 
5) If u-turn triggers an eject button, the u-turn user isn't switched out so that Duggy can come in. And yes, Scarf Duggy outspeeds Koko, unless Koko is scarfed itself.

But just run Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn with Synthesis or Strength Sap and watch Koko die from the enormous recoil.
And special variants are stopped by the blobs.
 
5) If u-turn triggers an eject button, the u-turn user isn't switched out so that Duggy can come in. And yes, Scarf Duggy outspeeds Koko, unless Koko is scarfed itself.

But just run Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn with Synthesis or Strength Sap and watch Koko die from the enormous recoil.
And special variants are stopped by the blobs.
Didn't know that about Eject Button. Still a meme.

I really hate the "Just run Ferrothorn" mentality because Koko + Magneton/zone is an amazing combo. If Ferro is your Koko check you're asking to be trapped i m o.

The blobs check every special mon that doesn't have an absurdly powerful Focus Blast or some way of hitting p defense*. Is no special mon banworthy... ever? Also you still have that one turn where you don't know the Koko set, and if you switch in the wrong mon you could have a mon killed or heavily crippled. For instance, if Lando is your go to switchin and they're specs Fleur Cannon you get OHKO'd if scarf and outsped and 2hko'd if pdef (56% chance to ohko after rocks). Sure you can switch if you're pdef, but unless they're bad you won't get a chance to heal.

*Koko can hit pdef BTW
252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Koko Bolt Strike vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 580-684 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock so you better predict the right set there.
Is Fleur Cannon Koko a thing for special sets?
Yes. It's what specs usually runs iirc.

Edit:
All that being said we had a vote and it ended and Koko isn't banned so unless the council is open to resuspecting I suggest we drop it.
Also this
 
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I recommend HP Fire over Ice if you're running Fleur Cannon. Fleur OHKOs Zygarde, Garchomp and offensive Landorus-T, while it does nearly 80% minimum to defensive. HP Fire threatens common Koko switch-ins like Ferrothorn, Excadrill and Steelix that can easily take Electric/Fairy/Ice. Additionally, I posted it a page or two back, but a mixed set with Fairium-Z Fleur Cannon is also a pretty effect means at circumnavigating typical Koko answers if you don't like being locked in with Specs.
 
Probably the main reason I've felt confident running rain in this meta is that it performs versus Tapu Koko. You have a legitimate reason to run Mega Swampert, which counters sets without Fleur Cannon or (lmao) Grass Knot, and can outspeed to OHKO in the rain. It has room for Shore Up to keep it healthy and exploit its great natural bulk. In the rain, Ferrothorn is naturally a much more secure answer to Kokos with HP Fire. Ironic, for a Water-based playstyle.

Speaking of Ferrothorn, actually, what do people normally run on it? I've heard talk of shields both Spiky and King's, but I can't figure out where they would go on the moveset. Strength Sap + Spore + Hazard + STAB all feel mandatory -- SS is great recovery that eases opposing offensive pressure and undoes all your opponent's hard work if you land it on a physical attacker, Spore requires no introduction, Ferro gets plenty of chances to set hazards, and a STAB makes you not a sitting duck.
 
The Ruins of Alpha – I have to disagree with you on one thing:

All that being said we had a vote and it ended and Koko isn't banned so unless the council is open to resuspecting I suggest we drop it.
I feel as if stopping discussion because the council hasn't posted yet isn't a fair thing to do. Yes, it was just voted on. However, people can disagree with that decision, as evidenced by Dream Eater Gengar's post. People should be allowed to have that discussion and bring up valid points. Perhaps that can persuade the council into re-suspecting it, or just outright banning it. You never know. I think that discussion should be open and encouraged at all times, even if it was just suspected.

Anyways, onto the discussion at hand.

LordHelix – Here is my response to your points:
  1. Landorus-T: Tapu Koko straight up drops it with Hidden Power Ice, and it's a completely common and viable set. It can't take a Play Rough into a Hidden Power Ice. Landorus-T is only a check to Tapu Koko when it wields a Choice Scarf and plays incredibly well. Or it just drops.
  2. Silvally-Ground: Nobody uses this because other Silvally forms, such as Water or Flying, are simply better. However, it's not fair to use that calculation when Play Rough 2HKOes it when Tapu Koko runs Choice Band or with nearly any previous damage.
  3. FakeSpeed: Well... yeah. Offensive Pokemon are checked by FakeSpeed. That doesn't help prove something isn't broken when no FakeSpeeders actually switch into Tapu Koko, as all relevant ones are OHKOed, or 2HKOed if anything. None like to switch in. You have to play around, pivot, and safely get them in. FakeSpeed is great on paper, but harder to execute in practice. Don't think it holds weight in this specific argument.
  4. Choice Scarf: Tapu Koko often runs Choice Scarf as well. You have to scout, and your Choice Scarf Pokemon may not be able to hold its own, considering Choice Scarf off of 130 Speed is insanely fast.
  5. Sticky Web: Stops Greninja as well. And other offensive threats. But it's not really a strong point, considering the multitude of ways to remove entry hazards; Defog from Celesteela, Landorus-T, Latios, Tapu Fini or Rapid Spin from Lopunny-Mega, Sylveon, Silvally-Water, Chansey, Snorlax, any Normal-type really, Azumarill. There are so many more ways to remove entry hazards in STABmons, moreso than any other metagame, so Sticky Web is a really poor argument.
  6. Eject Button + Dugtrio: If you're using this specifically to check Tapu Koko, you should realize that this is an over-centralizing threat and that it's a problem. Something so specific to check a single Pokemon is not healthy.
The Ruins of Alpha summarized this as well, but I'll chip in with my opinion.

Here's my summary on Tapu Koko:
  • Tapu Koko is checked by Landorus-T, faster offensive threats, and bulky Grass-types such as Venusaur-Mega and Ferrothorn in particular.
  • Tapu Koko is best used with offensive Pokemon that handle these, such as Magnezone for Ferrothorn, Landorus-T for other Landorus-T and most other Grass-types, Greninja-Ash to break down checks of each others [Grass-types], and entry hazards of its own, such as Stealth Rock from Landorus-T.
  • Landorus-T is, in my opinion, the best partner and check to Tapu Koko. Beating other Tapu Koko if it can is great, and eliminating Grass-types is excellent. Magnezone is a close second, since it benefits from having Electric Terrain-boosted moves and trapping Ferrothorn for Tapu Koko.
  • Tapu Koko can run many sets and variations of these sets. The most common is Choice Band, which runs U-turn / Play Rough / Brave Bird / Bolt Strike. It can also run Zap Plate / Life Orb sets which often run Hidden Power Ice over Brave Bird as it's not really strong enough without Choice Band. Choice Scarf and Choice Specs set are viable to get around conventional Tapu Koko checks such as faster offensive threats or to break down physical walls that think they're safe to switch in freely. Other sets like with Taunt, Roost, Nature's Madness, and so on. Those are viable, too.
  • Checking Tapu Koko comes down to Ground- and Grass-types. You have to run at least two Tapu Koko checks in my eyes, to handle all of its sets. Or just be Eevee General and play around Tapu Koko without actually having solid checks to it (somehow?).
  • Tapu Koko is the best Pokemon in the tier. No other Pokemon matches its sheer versatility and insane offensive capabilities. Its offensive typing is excellent, its Speed and Attack are stellar, and it has insanely powerful moves to use all of this with.
Tapu Koko has always been broken and I voted to ban it when I was on the rotating council. Here's another post you can read as to why I think Tapu Koko is unhealthy: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-om-of-the-month.3587949/page-11#post-7409219.

I'm not calling for another suspect, as I don't see it turning out differently. I'm merely expressing how I feel that Tapu Koko is broken and unhealthy. Another suspect would be excellent in my opinion, if the council was more open to the notion of banning it. Currently, I don't see that happening.

Akumeoy – Ferrothorn:

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 212 HP / 100 Def / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Spore / Leech Seed / Knock Off
- Power Whip / Anchor Shot
- Strength Sap

I'd prefer Spikes / Spore or Leech Seed / Strength Sap / Horn Leech or Anchor Shot and run Stealth Rock on like Garchomp or Landorus-T. Up to your team's needs.
 

EV

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Another!




version 2.0


Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons metagame. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been officially suspected.

Tapu Koko <#%&! m
After surviving the last suspect, discontent continues to swell. Were we wrong? Has TK readapted to an adapted metagame? Or is it all bluff and bluster?

Mega Pidgeot / Mega Lopunny / Sing / Lovely Kiss or some combination thereof <??? m
We've talked about Sleep, but the conversation isn't over. Are these Pokemon/moves too restrictive? Is the root problem in the abusers or in the moves? Can Sing be broken if it's only abused in conjunction with No Guard? Is 75% accuracy enough to make Lovely Kiss bannable?

[transmission complete]


Note that the above list is not an official suspect announcement - it is merely a "heads up" with regards to the council's future ban trajectory. Plenty can happen from now until an official announcement, so if you'd like to get in on the action, start posting your thoughts!
 
Personally I find Tapu Koko to be temporarily balanced but restrictive. There are a handful of very reliable checks to it, but if you don't run one of them, you pretty much just lose or bank on hax to win. As people get away from Band, Magnet and physical Life Orb (bad set IMO) and start running mixed lures and full special sets, I think the pool of reliable checks will start to diminish to the point that it becomes an issue, but currently people are too preoccupied with sets that lose to bulky Grounds. Basically any 'mon that is immune to Electric and can take a Play Rough or two shuts down most ladder Kokos, but once you throw in Hidden Power, Grass Knot and Fleur Cannon, things get dicey. Keep an eye on it.

As for the second section, I personally think Mega Lopunny is the biggest offender here, with or without Lovely Kiss. LK does contribute to its strength, narrowing its already small lists of checks even further, but I'd support banning it even if Lovely Kiss were banned previously. I've wracked my brain over offensive checks to it, and there simply are none. It outspeeds nearly every 'mon that has ever existed, Normal + Fighting + Scrappy has absolutely zero resistances, and even fast Scarfers need to be able to take Extreme Speed, which is no easy task coming off nearly 400 Attack. I've literally run Scarf Aerodactyl to take this thing on, and the remains of a really bad stall draft with Insomnia Gourgeist sit in my teambuilder. There are certainly things that take it on from the defensive spectrum (Tapu Fini, Landorus, Tangrowth) but they all of their downsides and none of the really fit on fully offensive teams except Landorus, which hates being slept and can't even benefit from Misty/Electric Terrain as a countermeasure. Otherwise, I really don't see Lovely Kiss (and Sing lol) on other 'mons so the moves on their own aren't an issue at this point in time. Pidgeot is annoying but it's a lot easier to outspeed, outpriotize and overpower. And if you really struggle with it, there's always Chansey, the catch-all special wall of which there is no physical equivalent for exceptional attackers like Lopunny. #banthebunny
 
as i've already talked about tapu koko on numerous occasions, i'll touch on the others. firstly, i feel as if neither pidgeot-mega or lopunny-mega are broken in their own rights. pidgeot-mega struggles versus a ton of common threats, notably heatran, and any other offensive threat (hint: there's a ton of them!). lopunny-mega is incredibly strong, but it still has its checks such as bulky grass- and water-types like tangrwoth / venusaur-mega and tapu fini. however, both of these pokemon are pushed a little further thanks to their access to sing in pidgeot-mega's case, or lovely kiss in lopunny-mega's case. neither is remotely over-centralizing or broken. but i do realize that banning specific moves has consequences for other pokemon, and that it's kind of a policy thing whether to look at the moves or the pokemon. therefore, i suggest these options...
  1. ban sing + ban lovely kiss: this is the option i've selected and would like to see followed through with. pidgeot-mega is so irritating and annoying to face. i feel as if these two moves fall into the category of chatter, giving the user an unfair advantage over the opponent but not being explicitly broken. i feel that banning pidgeotite in general is silly, but banning lopunnite is not far-fetched as points could be made to ban it. however, i don't really see how i could be convinced that banning pidgeotite is the correct course of action.
  2. ban sing + ban lopunnite: the second option is the option i see that takes elements of the first but focuses more on lopunny-mega. lopunny-mega has a ton of other things that make it an offensive powerhouse; however, lovely kiss is what pushes it into even more terrifying territory. do you think that more pokemon could potentially use lovely kiss (i use it on diggersby) and that banning it doesn't make sense? well, this is probably the option that makes the most sense. there is not trickle effect on sing either, as literally nothing else runs sing but pidgeot-mega.
  3. ban pidgeotite + ban lopunnite: perhaps you think both are inherently broken, and you want to make a case for banning the pokemon (items, really) instead of the moves. maybe there are uses for sing or lovely kiss you think could be used. i don't see it. i think this option is a poor choice because pidgeot-mega is not anything over-centralizing or powerful without running pidgeotite. lopunny-mega on the other hand, as i've stated numerous times, has things that could potentially make it too strong even without lovely kiss.
  4. do not ban pidgeotite + ban lopunnite: this is probably the option i see being the second most likely to occur, if not the first option i've proposed. i feel like you could easily argue that pidgeot-mega isn't over-centralizing, but more annoying than anything. i disagree with that notion, but i feel as if banning lopunnite is something i'm sure a lot of people would agree they could see happening. however, this option enforces the policy of banning pokemon more so than moves, which could be an option. one i disagree with, but it's a plausible possibility.
  5. do not ban anything: i feel as if the community can agree that something has to be done about these two threats. whether you want to dispute whether the moves themselves are broken, or that the pokemon need to be banned since they make use of the moves, no matter what, something should be done about the two nominated threats on the radar. personally, i think doing nothing on either would reflect poorly on how the process of weeding out broken / over-centralizing pokemon. something should be done about these two.
here's what i think needs to be done: ban sing + ban lovely kiss. sing is only broken on pidgeot-mega, and nothing else runs sing. keeping pidgeot-mega would be nice to have a faster offensive normal-type with a secondary stab, similar to porygon-z, but much weaker. banning sing gives us a cool threat to use and doesn't detract from anything else. meanwhile, lovely kiss is what could push lopunny-mega into broken territory by enabling it to sleep any of its counters and select what it wants to cripple the rest of the match. lopunny-mega is not broken without lovely kiss as it can be stopped by common defensive pokemon, such as landorus-t, which takes it on with ease. yeah it gives offense a headache because of fakespeed. diggersby also gives offensive a headache because of fakespeed + secondary stab makes it very hard to switch into. offensive teams are annoyed by fakespeed, that's just how it goes, so i don't think saying that it makes offense harder to use makes it in any way broken. but that's my personal philosophy.

i'm sure there's something i've missed or forgot, but that's just my opinin. there's definitely more that could be argued for either way, but this is my stance. tan bapu koko.
 

EV

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PS Policy Head
How do we feel about banning a move that is, on its own merits, considered trash, but only viable on one (or two, speaking in general terms) Pokemon due to some inherit trait of that Pokemon? Philosophically speaking.

So far, we have only banned moves because they were deemed broken (Shift Gear, Geomancy) or uncompetitive (Chatter, Acupressure). The moves don't have to break every Pokemon that has access to them (Shift Gear Beldum) but overall they break/make uncompetitive enough viable Pokemon.

I'm talking Sing here, if that wasn't clear.

Other examples include Dynamic Punch, which was considered seriously for a ban in PU (see Policy Review forum).