Metagame STABmons

[The Haymaker]

Silvally @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up
- Imprison
- Transform

This is my favourite meme. It just beats stuff like Hippowdon, lots of water types, really anything passive enough on the switch. It's also Silvally so it has the advantage of being any type if you like, or just having a lot of surprise factor. The fact that it just ruins a lot of defensive mons 1v1 can really force your opponent's hand sometimes, not to mention it can also do a little bit of damage if need be. Really struggles with Rotom-X though, as it just Volt Switches out.

I love this Silvally set idea - it's so trolly but effective. *claps*

Also, two other sets I thought would be worth sharing - a Minior sweeper set and a silly Cosmoem set.

Minior @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 228 Atk / 176 SpA / 100 Spe
Rash Nature
- Aeroblast
- Shell Smash
- Diamond Storm
- Earthquake

Have fun winning via crithax! Seriously though, this thing is cool, and Diamond Storm can serve as a buffer against some priority moves, especially FakeSpeed, since Minior can't benefit from Psychic Terrain. Aeroblast is the strongest move by just a hair, but it should probably only be used on physical walls, since Diamond Storm can grab a boost. The EVs outspeed Scarf Pheromosa at +2 in Core form, and everything up to Starmie at +2 in Shields form, which is pretty nice. Even without a boosting item, Aeroblast OHKOs defensive Landorus-T after Stealth Rock, and can even OHKO 160 HP Zygarde with SR and a small amount of residual damage. Diamond Storm 2HKOs specially defensive Skarmory and Celesteela, while Aeroblast 2HKOs physically defensive Skarm. Earthquake covers Heatran and Steels that resist its STABs.

Cosmoem @ Eviolite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Bold / Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk, 0 SpA, 0 Spe (if Trick Room)
- Magic Coat
- Lunar Dance
- Trick Room / Gravity / Reflect
- Power Split / Light Screen / Rest

Because Psychic has a crazy amount of support moves and Cosmoem is stupidly sturdy (what a fitting ability), this actually kinda works. If you thought Toxapex was bulky, Cosmoem eclipses it, pun intended, at 290 / 495 /495 bulk with this spread and Eviolite, before factoring in nature. First of all, Magic Coat because lol biggest Taunt bait ever. The goal is that hopefully, you'll have 3 turns of Trick Room (probably the best choice), Gravity (RIP T-Arrows), or 3/2 turns of screens to abuse by the time Cosmoem gets KOed or switches, and Cosmoem can potentially set them up several times throughout the match. Lunar Dance basically sacs itself to reuse something actually useful. Power Split can work to gain momentum when used in tandem with Lunar Dance as a pseudo-Memento. You should probably use it because it's the one thing Cresselia can't. If used with a cleric, Rest is an option as the only recovery move available, but it's probably going to be better just suiciding with Lunar Dance in the long run. Plus, Wish support would probably work better for a team like that.

The spread can be tailored to your team to tank certain attacks better, if you're really dumb brave enough to use Cosmoem. However, it is neat to note that Cosmoem can switch in, tank just about any two hits, (maybe set up TR) then Lunar Dance to gain back momentum, which is so valuable for hyper offensive teams.

I'll just leave this here and go on my way...

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Eviolite Cosmoem: 117-138 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Diggersby and Belly Drum need to be banned. They're just as broken as they were last time. Diggersby has pretty much no safe switch ins, and can revenge kill easily. Belly Drum turns any physical attacker into a monster, you now don't have to worry about Knock Off.

 

[The Immortal]

Can you clarify the Sketch ban Betathunder Eevee General

What I always assumed was Normal types can't get moves of any type, rather than the move Sketch literally being banned. This wasn't relevant last gen but apparently it is now because Z-Sketch. So does what I assume still hold true or is Sketch actually banned from being learned?

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

Normal types not getting every move is something that should stay the way it is, but the council is fine with sketch itself being unbanned on normal types in battle since Z-Sketch is situationally better than Z-Conversion and similar moves.

 

[Jajoken]

That makes sense from a balance perspective, but it's kind of confusing from a logical perspective. So what, it's basically a gentleman's agreement that the Pokémon won't bring in Sketched moves from previous battles, but they can use the move itself? I know that's sort of a moot point since this isn't an in-game meta, but I assumed the changes for carrying on move types from pre-evolutions were made to line up with in-game logic. It makes more sense to ban the move outright IMO but ultimately it's not super important so I'm not invested either way.

 

[Swagodile]

Thousand Waves/Anchor Shot

These moves are arguably more problematic than Thousand Arrows was. They allow Pokemon like Garchomp and Kartana to, on top of doing good damage, trap their foes, forcing them to stay in as they set up or get practically free kills.

Strength Sap

Cancer, especially on Silvally and Ferrothorn. It restores ridiculously high amounts of HP against any Pokemon with a decent Attack stat. Even against mons with no Attack investment, like Ferrothorn, it restores way too much, and the Attack drop is just the icing on the cake. With this, Quiver Dance, and not having to be Grass type to use it, Silvally becomes a nightmare to face.

Will update in the future, but yeah, I think Thousand Waves, Anchor Shot, and Strength Sap are cancer, and should be looked into for a suspect test or ban, as they are way more annoying to deal with than Thousand Arrows was, at least in my opinion.

 

[Aku Mau Ngetroll]

thanks to the broken mechanics, got rank 3 in ladder now.

Mega Gengar 2.0 Variations

Paper Mega Gengar (Kartana) @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Spore
- Anchor Shot
- Substitute

Bird Mega Gengar (Decidueye) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Spore
- Spirit Shackle
- Substitute

Tree Mega Gengar (Trevenant) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Spore
- Spirit Shackle
- Substitute

Turtle Mega Gengar (Torterra) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Spore
- Thousand Waves
- Substitute

Anchor Mega Gengar (Dhelmise) @ Leftovers
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Spore
- Anchor Shot
- Substitute

Alien Mega Gengar (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Spore
- Anchor Shot
- Substitute

trap -> sleep -> sub -> profit. The best user is Kartana, the others (except dhelmise and ferro) can be walled by some types (decidueye walled by normals, torterra walled by flying). and dhelmise and ferro is too slow ...

got the replay too, well only some though
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-493187720
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-493234558
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-493371672

oh yeah strength sap is good too (too op i think), which is the best abuser is Silvally

Silvally @ Ghost Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Moongeist Beam
- Strength Sap
- Secret Sword

172+ Timid to outspeed 252+ Pheromosa at +1, others in physical bulk.

 

[EV]

We're going to look into a few things, namely trapping moves, +1 to all stats Z-moves, Belly Drum, and a few others.

Personally, I'm not too intimidated by offensive Anchor Shot / Spirit Shackle trappers. Kartana looks like the biggest offender and I'd rather see the 'mon banned in this instance. Celesteela and Ferrothorn are pretty annoying with Anchor Shot, tho, being able to trap and whittle down quite a lot.

Anyway, I put together a quick threatlist/role compendium <<HERE>>. I'll re-order the categories based on viability. For now, comment with any suggestions of things I missed such as specific Pokemon or entire categories.

Lastly, here's two Z-move abusers I just theorymonned.

Kartana @ Grassium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Forest's Curse
- Spore
- Sunsteel Strike / Anchor Shot
- Sacred Sword / Horn Leech / Power Whip / King's Shield

Hoopa-Unbound @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Trick-or-Treat
- Stored Power / Psystrike
- Hyperspace Fury / Power Trip
- Drain Punch / Gunk Shot / Pursuit / Sucker Punch

Pretty cool, huh?

 

[The Haymaker]

Personally, I'm not too intimidated by offensive Anchor Shot / Spirit Shackle trappers. Kartana looks like the biggest offender and I'd rather see the 'mon banned in this instance. Celesteela and Ferrothorn are pretty annoying with Anchor Shot, tho, being able to trap and whittle down quite a lot.

I agree. Trapping attacks are really annoying on stall sets, but as far as sweeping, the only fast thing with access to Spore and Anchor Shot is Kartana, and with the other trapping moves, you have immunities from common types in the metagame (Normal and Flying) to consider. These prevent Substitute from being viable, at which point you risk being revenge killed. Anything besides Kartana actually requires a lot of support to sufficiently sweep. So yeah, at this point I'd say looking into Kartana first would be best, instead of trapping attacks in general. Kartana's the Pokémon that can pull of that mono-attacking sleep abuse set the best with its high Attack, Speed, access to Spore, and no immunities to its trapping move.

Outside of this, there's nothing preventing you from switching out into a better match-up to absorb the trapping move. It's in no way like Shadow Tag or Arena Trap. The moves really shine to get the most value out of sleep, bad poison, Leech Seed, and freeze and Curse too I guess.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

Hi, the council has decided the next quickban slate: Belly Drum, moves whose Z-Effect gives +1 to all 5 stats, Mega Aerodactyl, and Silvally.

Belly Drum has been banned in the past as it leads to very frustrating 6-0's after 1 turn of setup and minimal support unless extremely niche options are run, like unaware and prankster topsy-turvy.

+1 x5 Z-Moves are in the same boat as shift gear, shell smash, geo, and BD. Trick or Treat and Conversion are especially difficult to switch into, since they can turn positive matchups on their heads.

Mega Aerodactyl has also been banned in the past for its ability to 2hko everything but Steelix with Head Smash, Dragon Ascent, and some combo of Earthquake, Aqua Tail, and Crunch, it's insane speed (it outpaces base 130 without running a positive nature), and difficulty to revenge kill due to its normal resistance and passable defenses.

Silvally, particularly the ghost and water types, can setup quiver dances and sweep very easily thanks to their high bulk, perfect 2-move coverage, and infinite utility. The ghost type is particularly difficult to revenge due to the fall of dark types and its immunity to FakeSpeed.

A suspect tour will be setup at some point, and in the mean time please mull these over and let us know which of these you think should be banned/not banned and why.

Happy stabbing!

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Seriously though... Let the community participate in the votes, you've been nine things now without a suspect test... I disagree with the majority of the bans and yet this comes out of the blue.

 

[EV]

Seriously though... Let the community participate in the votes, you've been nine things now without a suspect test... I disagree with the majority of the bans and yet this comes out of the blue.

He said suspect.

 

[dhelmise]

Seriously though... Let the community participate in the votes, you've been nine things now without a suspect test... I disagree with the majority of the bans and yet this comes out of the blue.

Can you not read? there are suspect tours for a reason. The council is letting people speak. The only issue is nobody is speaking in the thread to counter the thoughts as to why something should be banned. All you're doing about this is over-dramatically complaining in the chatroom about how "the council is not letting the community speak! Wah!" and then doing nothing but echoing it here. Seriously? All you're saying is:

[14:01] Grains of Salt: I talked with teg a lot as well
[14:01] Grains of Salt: I get "its broken, get over it"
[14:01] Grains of Salt: Shouldn't the community have some say in it? I played a ton of stabmons

Ummmm.... Cool? I played a lot of STABmons too! I am a part of the community! I have no issue with what is going on!

They're literally just suspecting the things that were overly broken last generation that continued to be broken this generation. There's nothing wrong with banning an unhealthy Pokemon or move that can quite obviously:

• Cause numerous Pokemon to sweep teams (Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Geomancy [and even Z-Geomancy], +1x5 Z-moves, etc)
• 2HKO the entire relevant metagame without a worry (Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Metagross)
• Get access to every move in existence and use anything effectively to the point where it's near-impossible to beat (Silvally)

The community obviously does have a say in what happens, that's just common sense to any metagame, but if the community is saying literally nothing besides "Wah! Let me speak!" without actually speaking their thoughts, then don't complain.


Before Silvally does POTENTIALLY get banned, here is a set I would like to show off.

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Revelation Dance
- Earth Power
- Psystrike

This isn't your standard Ghost Silvally set, like at all. I wanted to find a Pokemon that could take advantage of Revelation Dance, so I thought Silvally. However, so many types already have a 90-Base Power special move that they can use (Thunderbolt for Electric, etc), so the first thing that popped into my mind was Steel Silvally. The two strongest special Steel-type moves are Flash Cannon and Doom Desire. The former only has 80 Base Power, and the latter is a future-hit move, and I didn't like the sound of either. Steel-type Revelation Dance is really good at +1 Special Attack from Silvally, letting it OHKO a plethora of threats in Choice Scarf Tapu Lele and more.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It's pretty unclear, though.

I think you're being extremely rash with the quick bans. First you quick-ban five things, alright. Shell Smash, Geomancy, Shift Gear, Metagrossite and Thousand Arrows. Here I addressed Metagrossite and Thousand arrows. The former isn't near ban worthy, it was a dumb decision in ORAS and it's still a dumb decision. Metagross's problems aren't solved by giving it Heavy Slam, it's just not. Heavy Slam certainly has downsides, it's weaker versus certain pokemon than Meteor mash nor does it have a chance to boost your attack - which can be clutch. It doesn't let Metagross beat a ton of its former counters, not at all. Mega Scizor, Steelix and Skarmory(Beak Blast)counter all of its sets while there's a dozen other mons that can counter a set depending on the moves. I won't go over all of these but Pyukumuku, Hippowdown, Quagsire, Rotom-W/H, Forretress. Perhaps the fact that every ground type in the game now has reliable recovery matters? What's the point in banning shift gear AND metagross, that's just dumb. You're already nerfing it significantly, how could you possibly know if it was broken...

Thousand arrows is one of those things were you should've considered banning the abusers rather than a move, a move that's great on dozens of ground types is banned because 2-3 pokemon are broken with it. It's worthy of a suspect test, not a quick ban. You shouldn't be suspecting multiple things, ugh. This is why Mega Sableye wasn't banned in OU, people just jumped on gothitelle being the problem when both were, it crowds your judgement because they're not on equal footing.

And now this... Apparently it was a suspect, but ya'll wrote quick-ban?

By telling me you don't have time to suspect things then you're sending a message of "I don't believe this metagame is good enough to win OMOTM".

 

[dhelmise]

View attachment 74947

It's pretty unclear, though.

Look down at the second-to-last line and it says "suspect tour".

 

[lost heros]

Look down at the second-to-last line and it says "suspect tour".

Or the next word that says "slate", which implies this is what they're looking at not what they're banning.

Also, I feel like restoring the old rules for out-of-battle forme changes is more appropriate then banning silvally. That being said I haven't played much of Stabmons cause finals.

 

[EV]

Stop talking about the semantics of the test and just discuss the actual suspects please!

e: Hey guys! The Council is hosting a suspect tour on 12/14 in the OM room at 8pm Eastern time. Join us to test out the metagame with the following elements banned:

• Belly Drum
• All +1×5 Z-moves
• Mega Aerodactyl
• Silvally

Afterward we'll vote on the suspects and announce the results. I hope to see you there!

Finals - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-497504304

 

[EchoGaia]

I think Silvally shouldn't be banned, its stats aren't really the great (95 across the board means that it needs a boost to actually damage anything) the only problem is its infinite movepool. Too much players are comparing it with Smeargle due to that but don't see that Silvally cannot hold an item and if it cannot manage to setup a Quiver Dance it cannot really harm walls. Sure it's very great, and you have to scout its moveset in order to check it, but actually enough offensive pressure is usually enough to take it down before it can do anything.

For the Strength Sap problem, you should still remember that it can be bounced (and then it will heal the bouncer which is not nice), and restores less and less health if the same mon stays in. Again, high offensive pressure makes Strength Sap more and more a liability, even used by Ferrothorn and Silvally, that's also why i prefer using Shore Up on the latter more than Strength Sap for these reasons.

I think you go too fast with the bans, you already suspected and banned a lot of things in a couple of days. I dunno if you are rushing so much cause STABmons disappears at the end of the month, but you shouldn't rush this way. Suspecting something should take time and you should wait a long time between each of them to effectively see if the ban was useful or not.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

This may be off topic but I kinda question the decision of banning a dozen things before half a month even passed. I get that it's because this meta only exist for a month, but banning and suspecting things shouldn't be this fast. I can understand if they're blatantly broken but they're not really broken to the point that you need to remove them all at once.

As said above, banning and suspecting things should have an observation and analysis of "how will this metagame do without this? Is it more healthy? Is it not?" And also, we need to see if each of the suspected things is actually broken or not by looking at it in practice (in other words, by ladder), not by "this looks broken even if we haven't had proof yet, so this is banned" unless the suspected thing is REALLY broken that 2-3 days of testing really shows (like Zygarde-C in OU). These reasons are why suspecting and banning things takes time.

 

[EchoGaia]

But what i totally agree is quickbanning the all stats boosting Z moves though.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

At Eevee General's request.

Echoing what Chopin says, you need to give the metagame more time to evolve and adapt. Bans should occupy your minds for longer than 4-5 days before you decide. It's not about quickly cleaning house and trying to skip forward to the point where the metagame is "balanced", it's about being thorough and let the metagame adapt naturally.

As the council it's not your job to shape the metagame, it's your job to let the metagame shape itself naturally. It's difficult not to do this because you're some of the most experienced players in the metagame, but you gotta calm down with the bans - as we've clearly seen it's far to easy for something to be banned.

The metagame will shape itself and it will take time. Stabmons isn't inherently different from any other metagame, it can be balanced. By not steering the metagame one way or another it'll inherently balanced itself out. If there is a dominant threat the metagame will adapt. "The Top dog" in the metagame will shift the metagame out of its favour. Archetypes that threaten the top dog will rise in viability and its answers will also be more common. The metagame will at its peak have centralised around the biggest threat, however when the metagame is so centralised it decreases the viability of the biggest threat. It doesn't need to stay centralised either, because at this point the players know how to handle the top dog.

By banning to quickly you don't let the metagame adapt naturally. There's exceptions to this, obviously, like Zygarde-Complete in OU, but nine things aren't as broken as Zygarde-Complete was in OU. Also, by suspecting multiple things at once you don't let the metagame adapt to the result of the suspect. When you ban Shift gear isn't it painfully obvious that the viability of Metagrossite would drop immensely?!

TEG asked me to give another solution, and here's my proposed solution. Unban everything except Shell Smash, Geomancy and Shift gear. Suspect Thousand arrows after waiting a couple of days - let the community vote by reaching reqs.

 

[EV]

The goal of all the quick bans was to reach some semblance of balance as quickly as possible before the ladder leaves.


So you can either have a relatively balanced meta for longer

or

A setup spam heavy metagame that's difficult to master that people get frustrated with and give up playing.


I'm sorry we've moved so quickly but we're trying to make an enjoyable ladder for as many people as possible. That's great if you can counter GeoSmashDrumGearMetagrossTrick-or-TreatSilvallyMegaHyper Offense like a baller, but most people can't. I don't want to turn them away because we sat on our hands for too long. If we can create something stable and keep people coming back there's a better chance at actually salvaging the shit decision to remove the ladder.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

The problem is you assume what a "Balanced" generation seven metagame will look like, while in reality you have no idea. None of us do, which is why we let the metagame adapt.

Edit: Don't reply to this/involve me in the convo - I stopped playing a couple days ago and don't want to start as I believe the council is dismissive towards the community and its opinion.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I agree with what Grains of Salt has said for the most part (I'm not sure if I like his solution, I'd have to look at it in more depth). I'm really shy about the Thousand Arrows ban, I feel like no other options were looked at (including things like giving the meta time and allowing counters to emerge).

EDIT: Eevee General told me to say more. So I will. Later. After finals, when I'm not tired af.

I agree that when Megagross was allowed it was broken, but if it didn't have Shift Gear idk if it would have been.

As to Silvally: I think that its not banworthy. Its mediocre stats make it not immediately threatening, and once you figure out its set counters exist to all of them. My main problem is with its ability to bluff one set, run a trapping move, and screw you over by doing something like imprisonform, but I think that trapping moves are more the problem here.

No opinion on other suspects yet.

Edit: Except Belly Drum, that shizzle is borked.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

The tourney with all of the bans in place was pretty fun. Though in making a team... I've found another massive threat.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Hyperspace Fury
- Gunk Shot
- Zen Headbutt Psychic Fangs

Z-Parting Shot is phenomenally good, fully restoring the switch, and making them good as new. But of course, that's not what Hoopa really does. ...It's a monstrous power, and hits things with ungodly power. Sticky Web support makes it nearly unstoppable, except by Tapu Koko, Scarfed things, and Levitators. Rather than show you all calcs, look at these replays from said suspect tournament instead. Both of them show off how much damage Hoopa can do, and the extent of its monstrous power... OU needs to take care of this monster before it becomes a thing again on their end, even with the Tapus roaming...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-497487932
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-497494228