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Gen 1 Stadium/RBY Differences Collection for Simulator Implementation (help needed)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by eric the espeon, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Along with its second gen twin this project aims to pave the way for future implementation of older generations on current simulators. We are specifically looking for differences between GSC and Stadium / RBY.

    Both:

    Data changes:
    • Remove of all Pokemon and Moves not obtainable in the first generation and evolutionary links with them.
    • Remove all items.
    • Modify learnsets. Perhaps add the tradeback only moves under a different learn method, and make a way to ban them from some ladders.

    Global mechanic changes:
    • Recombine the Special Attack and Special Defense stats.
    • Remove Shinys.
    • Remove Dark and Steel types (including Magnemite and Magneton's secondary type).
    • Change type chart:
    • Bug should be super effective against Poison, Poison should be super effective against Bug, Bug should be neutral against Ghost, Psychic should be immune to Ghost, and Ice should be neutral to Fire.
    • Remove Genders.
    • Remove Happiness (Only Yellow Pikachu uses it, and Return/Frustration do not exist.).
    • Critical hits ignore all stat boosts/drops, not just drops on the attacker and boosts on the defender.
    • Critical hit rate is calculated differently.
    • Stats are capped at 999.
    A Pokemon may not attack on the turn it wakes from sleep (source, could do with confirmation).

    Simple move changes (e.g. base power, accuracy):

    • Gust, Sand-Attack, Karate Chop, and Bite should be Normal type moves.
    • Dig has 100 Base Power.
    • Double Edge has 100 Base Power.
    • Explosion has 170 Base Power.
    • SelfDestruct has 130 Base Power.
    • Wing Attack has 35 Base Power.
    • Blizzard has 89.5% Accuracy.
    • Rock Throw has 65% Accuracy.


    Stadium Only:

    • Sleep lasts 1-3 turns.
    • If a Pokémon defeats an opposing Pokémon with a recoil move, the Attacker does not suffer recoil damage.
    • Wrap is complicated. It ends when the either Pokemon switches out, and negates the recharge turn of Hyper Beam only if successful. Details here.
    • Substitute blocks the effects of Absorb, Dream Eater, Leech Life, Leech Seed, Mega Drain, and all status ailments inflicted by the opponent.
    • After a move which causes self-inflicted confusion (e.g. Thrash) ends, the game will display a message stating that the target is confused.

    RBY Only:

    • If a Pokémon defeats an opposing Pokémon with a recoil move, the attacker suffers recoil damage.
    • An immobilized Pokémon cannot select an attack.
    • Wrap continues if the target is switched out.
    • When a paralyzed Pokémon's Speed is modified, its Speed reduction is nullified.
    • After a move which causes self-inflicted confusion (e.g. Thrash) ends, the game will not display a message stating that the target is confused.
    • Recovery moves fail when the difference between a Pokémon's current and maximum HP is 255 or 511.
    • If Hyper Beam KOs a foe, breaks a Substitute, or misses the recharge turn is skipped.
    • A Substitute will not block status ailments except poison. It also blocks confusion moves such as Confuse Ray and stat reduction moves such as Screech. Substitute will block attacks' secondary effects (ex: Body Slam can't paralyze if it hits a Substitute, even if it breaks) except for secondary confusion. Substitute will not block the effect of partial trapping moves. A Substitute will also be the recipient of self-inflicted confusion damage. Lastly, HP draining attacks used on a Substitute will not drain HP when breaking the Substitute. If a Pokémon breaks a Substitute with Explosion or Selfdestruct, it will not faint, though its picture will no longer be visible until it switches out or uses Substitute. If a Pokémon breaks a Substitute with a recoil move, it will not take any recoil damage. Substitute will not alter the execution of Bide, Counter, Disable, Haze, Leech Seed, Super Fang, Transform, or partial trapping moves, and it will not absorb crash damage, recoil damage, or recurrent damage. However, a Substitute will absorb self-inflicted confusion damage and prevent the user from flinching. If the user's current HP is less than 25% (rounded down) of its maximum HP, it will be too weak to make a Substitute. If the user's current HP is exactly equal to 25% (rounded down) of its maximum HP, it will faint upon creating the Substitute.
    • Focus Energy will not only not make a Pokémon's critical hit ratio higher, it will quarter it instead.
    Probably RBY:
    Effectiveness message oddities.

    If you want to support the adoption of older generations by active simulators, this is the best way you can help out! Post differences you can find here, and please link to sources wherever possible. Additionally, I am aware of the Important RBY Differences guide on Smogon and will be adding things from there whenever I can confirm whether something applies to Stadium too or just to th Carts. Please avoid posting things from there unless you can confirm whether the difference appears in Stadium.
  2. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    I think everything is covered in the Important RBY differences article.
  3. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    It covers the most important bits, but the chances are there will have been a few things which slipped through the net. And I need to know which differences are Cart only/which are in stadium.
  4. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Stadium Only

    Game Mechanic Changes
    Pokémon Stadium features a number of changes to the battle system. Many of these fix glitches present in the first generation games.[1] [2]
    General changes include:
    The duration of sleep is reduced to 1-3 turns.
    If a Pokémon defeats an opposing Pokémon with a recoil move, the Pokémon does not suffer recoil damage.
    An immobilized Pokémon can still select an attack.
    Consecutive moves such as Wrap end when the target switches out.
    All status ailments and HP-draining moves have no effect against a Substitute.
    If a Pokémon is fully paralyzed during the invulnerable turn of Dig or Fly, the move resets.
    When a paralyzed Pokémon's Speed is modified, its Speed reduction is no longer nullified.
    After a move which causes self-inflicted confusion (e.g. Thrash) ends, the game will display a message stating that the target is confused.
    The variable that determines the last damage dealt is reset whenever a Pokémon switches, is fully paralyzed, or uses a two-turn attack.
    Recovery moves no longer fail when the difference between a Pokémon's current and maximum HP is 255 or 511.

    (yes I copied Synre's post from PR)
  5. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Is your list is meant to be exhaustive or if you're only putting in the quieter changes? You're missing the different Hyper Beam mechanics in Stadium vs. RBY. IIRC, in RBY a missed Hyper Beam or a Hyper Beam that OHKOs requires no recharge; they both require recharge in Stadium.
  6. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    The list should ideally include all differences between Gen 1 and 2, specifying the Stadium and Cart mechanics. I've not gone through the RBY Diffs guide and sorted the information there into RBY and Stadium yet, and will do so when I get a chance. I will add that.
  7. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    When it comes to boosting moves, stats are capped at 999 unlike in ADV and beyond.
  8. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Are they actually capped at 999, capped at 1024, or roll over to 0 at either of those numbers?

    Edit: You clarified in the other topic, editing OP.
  9. Karpi

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  10. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    My list is mainly about the quieter changes.
  11. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    In RBY...
    Dig has 100 Base Power.
    Double Edge has 100 Base Power.
    Explosion has 170 Base Power.
    SelfDestruct has 130 Base Power.
    Wing Attack has 35 Base Power.
    Blizzard has 89.5% Accuracy.
    Rock Throw has 65% Accuracy.

    Power Reference. Accuracy Reference.

    EDIT: Nevermind, it mentions it in the article...
  12. RBG

    RBG Got a long list of ex-lovers, they'll tell you I'm insane.
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    Eric is a jerk.
  13. Showsni

    Showsni

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    Hm, here's something I've not seen mentioned: the game displays odd messages for nfe and possible se damage when dual typings are used. For instance, on my Yellow cartridge, when my Venusaur uses Razor Leaf (a Grass move) against a Tentacool (a Water/Poison type) the game displays the "It's not very effective" message, even though it should be doing neutral damage. I think the same thing happened with enemy Pokémon using Poison move on my Venusaur, and my Pikachu using electric moves on Lance's Dragonite - the "not very effective" message displayed in all cases. I haven't calculated to see if it's actually the move doing less damage or if the only difference is the message displayed, though. According to a website I found here:
    http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/compendium/typechart.htm
    They were getting "It's super effective!" messages from the same situation, Venusaur using grass moves on Tentacool, but according to their research it was still doing 1 times damage. I don't know if this is a difference between RB and Y, or if the specific move used makes a difference, or what... (Though it does go some way towards explaining why I've always been so confused about how Grass and Poison interact. It's the game showing the wrong message!)
  14. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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  15. waterwizard

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    Counter continues to work until the foe uses a PP (or the user faints/switches).

    Thus, if the foe uses Stomp on you, you can use Counter the next turn, and the next, and the next, as long as the foe either a) fully paralyzes, b) switches, c) is asleep, d) wakes up, f) is frozen, g) recharges, h) hurts itself in confusion, i) flinches, j) takes in sunlight, k) lowers its head, l) is glowing, m) gathers a whirlwind, or n) faints.

    Counter will also work on the turn the opponent flies up high or digs down low, although it will miss and be reset upon the descent/ascent of the foe. However, if the foe fully paralyzes or hurts itself in confusion on the turn it is supposed to descend/ascend, the Counter will not be reset.

    The key is that Counter works until the foe uses a PP. So Rest, Recover, Toxic, Psychic, and Lick will all reset the Counter. Notice I said using Rest resets Counter. However, the act of sleeping does not reset the counter (if you manage to get a sleeping pokemon out and then have it try to sleep).

    The Counter user can use other moves, including Rest and Fly, and then use Counter again later (as long as the Counter has still not been reset).

    Counter will always go second, however. Counter can be countered. If both pokemon use Counter, both Counters will fail.
  16. waterwizard

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    When the attack of a pokemon who has been burned is modified (Growl/Meditate/etc), the attack reduction from burn disappears (similar to the Paralysis speed fall).

    Also, while Rest does heal paralysis/burn (and poison), it does not correct the speed/attack fall. However, the speed/attack fall is removed upon switching out.

    Explosion and SelfDestruct still half the defense of the foe...
  17. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    In case coyotte is going to implement tradebacks:-

    Generation 1 Pokemon NYPC moves (open)
    Venusaur – Rock Throw
    Fearow – Sonicboom
    Raichu – Dizzy Punch, Petal Dance, Sing
    Nidoqueen – Lovely Kiss
    Nidoking – Lovely Kiss
    Clefable – Petal Dance, Swift
    Wigglytuff - Petal Dance
    Vileplume – Leech Seed
    Golduck – Petal Dance, Tri Attack
    Poliwrath – Growth, Lovely Kiss
    Machamp – Thrash
    Victreebel – Lovely Kiss
    Tentacruel – Confuse Ray
    Rapidash – Low Kick
    Magneton – Agility
    Farfetch’d – Fury Cutter
    Dodrio – Low Kick
    Onix – Sharpen
    Hypno – Amnesia
    Electrode – Agility
    Marowak – Fury Attack
    Hitmonlee – Dizzy Punch
    Hitmonchan – Dizzy Punch
    Lickitung – DoubleSlap
    Seadra – Haze
    Seaking – Swords Dance
    Scyther – Sonicboom
    Jynx – Petal Dance
    Electabuzz – Dizzy Punch(can be obtained via Odd Egg as well)
    Pinsir – Rock Throw, Sweet Kiss
    Tauros – Quick Attack
    Gyarados – Bubble
    Lapras – Bite
    Flareon – Growth
    Vaporeon – Growth
    Jolteon – Growth
    Porygon – Barrier
    Omastar – Rock Throw
    Kabutops – Rock Throw
    Aerodactyl – Rock Throw
    Snorlax – Lovely Kiss, Splash
    Dragonite – Hydro Pump


    I'd just like to suggest that you create special classes for "Gen 2 NYPC", "Gen 2 Egg" and "Gen 2 Level", so that you can carry over restrictions from implementation of Generation 2 to when you implement Generation 1.

    Tradeback Egg Moves (open)
    Venusaur – Light Screen, Petal Dance, Razor Wind, Skull Bash
    Charizard – Bite, Rock Slide
    Blastoise – Confusion, Haze, Mist
    Raticate – Bite, Counter, Fury Swipes, Screech
    Fearow – Quick Attack, Tri Attack
    Raichu – DoubleSlap
    Sandslash – Counter
    Nidoqueen – Disable, Focus Energy, Supersonic
    Nidoking – Amnesia, Confusion, Disable, Supersonic
    Clefable – Amnesia, Splash
    Ninetales – Disable, Hypnosis
    Golbat – Gust, Quick Attack
    Vileplume – Razor Leaf
    Parasect – Counter, Light Screen, Psybeam, Screech
    Venomoth – Screech
    Dugtrio – Screech
    Persian – Amnesia, Hypnosis
    Golduck – Hypnosis, Light Screen, Psybeam, Psychic
    Primeape – Meditate
    Arcanine – Fire Spin, Thrash
    Poliwrath – Haze, Mist, Splash
    Alakazam – Barrier, Light Screen
    Machamp – Light Screen, Meditate, Rolling Kick
    Victreebel – Leech Life
    Tentacruel – Aurora Beam, Haze
    Rapidash – Double Kick, Hypnosis, Quick Attack, Thrash
    Slowbro – Stomp
    Magneton – Gust, Mirror Move, Quick Attack
    Dodrio – Haze, Quick Attack, Supersonic
    Dewgong – Disable, Lick, Peck, Slam
    Muk – Haze, Lick
    Cloyster – Barrier, Screech
    Gengar – Haze
    Hypno – Barrier, Light Screen
    Kingler – Amnesia, Dig, Haze, Slam
    Marowak – Rock Slide, Screech, Swords Dance
    Hitmonchan – Hi Jump Kick
    Weezing – Psybeam, Psywave, Screech
    Rhydon – Thrash
    Tangela – Amnesia, Confusion, Reflect
    Kangaskhan – Disable, Focus Energy, Stomp
    Seadra – Aurora Beam, Disable, Dragon Rage, Splash
    Seaking – Haze, Hydro Pump, Psybeam
    Mr. Mime – Hypnosis
    Scyther – Counter, Light Screen, Razor Wind
    Jynx – Meditate, Sing
    Electabuzz – Barrier, Karate Chop, Meditate, Rolling Kick
    Magmar – Barrier, Karate Chop, Screech
    Pinsir – Rock Throw
    Lapras – Aurora Beam
    Omastar – Aurora Beam, Slam, Haze, Supersonic
    Kabutops – Aurora Beam, Dig
    Snorlax – Lick
    Dragonite – Haze, Light Screen, Mist, Supersonic


    Above list does not include pre-evos, so include during implementation.

    GSC Move Tutors (open)
    Nidoqueen – Flamethrower
    Nidoking – Flamethrower
    Machop – Flamethrower
    Machoke – Flamethrower
    Machamp – Flamethrower
    Geodude – Flamethrower
    Graveler – Flamethrower
    Golem – Flamethrower
    Slowbro – Flamethrower
    Muk – Flamethrower
    Cubone – Flamethrower
    Marowak – Flamethrower
    Lickitung – Flamethrower
    Koffing – Flamethrower
    Weezing – Flamethrower
    Rhyhorn – Flamethrower
    Rhydon – Flamethrower
    Chansey – Flamethrower
    Kangaskhan – Flamethrower
    Tauros – Flamethrower
    Gyarados – Flamethrower
    Aerodactyl – Flamethrower
    Snorlax – Flamethrower
    Dratini – Flamethrower
    Dragonair – Flamethrower
    Dragonite – Flamethrower
  18. Crystal_

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    I think that if Double-Edge (or any other recoil move) attacks a Sub, the user will just lose 1 HP but I don't know for sure.

    And Blizzard acc. is 90% (or 90 *255 / 256) rather than 89'5, isn't it?

    I think that the 1/256 glitch is also applied to secondary effects like Blizzard freezing, Psychic spc falling etc.
  19. coyotte508

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    Confirming. Just displays "XXX woke up".

    Edit: http://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/attacks/index.htm is a very useful source for detailed effects for every attacks, OHKO moves, damage formula...
  20. JolteonFTW

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  21. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Yes, it's mentioned on the Smogon article. The question is where does it happen.
  22. Torchickens

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    This page is quite useful, in case you haven't already noted some of the changes from it + a page by IIMarckus on how different damage effects work here.

    RE: Leech Seed glitch, I added it to Bulbapedia's list of minor glitches if you want a little clarification. Though I can't test to see if it works on Stadium unfortunately.

    It's exploitable on Pokémon Yellow and it's basically that Leech Seed and Toxic use the same damage algorithm: N * max(1, int(0.0625*MaxHP)). N increases every turn under Toxic so Leech Seed damage increases every turn just like Toxic if the Pokémon is badly poisoned.

    Also, if the battle is a draw the relevant victory theme is played even though you've technically lost. This doesn't happen in Generation II.

    There's also the binding move 'Fire Spin' glitch which SloshedMail reported on the Glitch City Laboratories forum. A battle goes out of synch if you Mirror Move something like Fire Spin, have it hit and then have the enemy Pokémon switch to a Pokémon which will get knocked out by the move in one hit as the attack continues.

    Edit: Almost forgot - if you manage to get a stat high enough e.g. 999 Special though also have Reflect/Light Screen up you can exceed the 999 cap and possibly the absolute limit of 1023, possibly causing the stat to be lower (modulo 1024). Does not occur in Stadium because of a higher limit.
  23. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    According to Azure's ancient records, that is indeed the case.

  24. Torchickens

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    I'll list some of the other changes from here and here for quick viewing:


    • A frozen Pokémon which hasn't recharged from Hyper Beam will have the FRZ status eliminated by Haze.
    • Selfdestruct/Explosion will not take down the user if it breaks a substitute, though the user's picture disappears regardless.
    • Focus energy: "No effect if user is faster than opponent. If user is slower, Critical Hit ratio goes to 0/511"
    • Any recovery move fails if HP is a multiple of 255 or 511.
    • Rest does not reset the N value of toxic.
    • Burns also use the Leech Seed/Toxic algorithm (needs verifying but in theory resting after being badly poisoned and getting a Burn would make the Burns do more because of the higher N value).
    • Stadium allows a new move to be used on a switch into Bind/Wrap/Fire Spin/Clamp.
    There was also a PP underflow glitch, though I don't remember much about it. Tombstoner made an article about it when Glitch City Laboratories Wiki used to be online, maybe you could ask him about that, but the site has been down for maintenance since December.

    P.S I'm looking forward for this future implementation. I've been trying to do battles against different glitch Pokémon, though its been a little impractical and frustrating when running into enemy glitch Pokémon which freeze the game on the opponent's side. (incomplete, tentative glitch Pokémon by 'Base Stat tier') + archived Glitch Dex

    Are Smogon considering adding glitch Pokémon to this simulator, because I might be able to help out a little bit (I'll ask the people at GCL who made the Glitch Dex, recorded some of the cries and found the base stats if they want this to happen too).
  25. AJC

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    if you get Fully paralyzed in the middle of fly/dig you are rendered invulnerable to all moves except swift for the rest of the battle unless you use dig/fly again.

    i don't know if this is the case in stadium 1 though.

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