General rules apply here. Sun & Moon Spoilers are in this thread.
This is a discussion for the ability: Stakeout. The goal of this thread is to come up with an implementation of Stakeout that will be used in Sun & Moon ASB.
What I currently have down is:
"Stakeout - Passive | Mold Breaker: No | Attacks have double BAP on a Pokémon that switched in this round. Must be already out to get the benefit."
But I am not certain that I am happy with its balance, even though only Yungoos/Gumshoos get it (Too bad they don't get Rare Candy benefits so I have to rework Solar Ray to help these two out). Stakeout's in-game effect is to deal double damage the turn a Pokémon switches in.
Here is an IRC discussion from a couple of months ago to help get you started:
So yeah, anyone want to help out? This will probably end up going to a council vote depending on whether or not we get a general consensus which we probably won't so expect a vote.
This is a discussion for the ability: Stakeout. The goal of this thread is to come up with an implementation of Stakeout that will be used in Sun & Moon ASB.
What I currently have down is:
"Stakeout - Passive | Mold Breaker: No | Attacks have double BAP on a Pokémon that switched in this round. Must be already out to get the benefit."
But I am not certain that I am happy with its balance, even though only Yungoos/Gumshoos get it (Too bad they don't get Rare Candy benefits so I have to rework Solar Ray to help these two out). Stakeout's in-game effect is to deal double damage the turn a Pokémon switches in.
Here is an IRC discussion from a couple of months ago to help get you started:
[01:10] <@~Its_A_Random> thoughts on
[01:10] <@~Its_A_Random> "Stakeout - Passive | Mold Breaker: No | Attacks have double BAP on a Pokémon that switched in this round. Must be already out to get the benefit."
[01:10] <@~Its_A_Random> and
[01:10] <@~Its_A_Random> "Power Construct - Toggle | Mold Breaker: No | Transforms into Zygarde Complete when HP < 50%. HP increased by the amount of HP Zygarde Complete has over original forme. Cannot be reversed. Immune to copying and removal. No effect when toggled."
[01:10] ZthePhone (uid112365@synIRC-324D3D10.brockwell.irccloud.com) joined #capasb.
[01:10] <ZthePhone> Morning peeps.
[01:11] <@~Its_A_Random> I'm basically doing first drafts of asb abilities / moves converted to an asb sense
[01:11] <Exclaimer> I like Stakeout just like that, but I've no idea what to think about Power Construct.
[01:11] <@~Its_A_Random> !asbility drizzle
[01:12] <cloudraloo> Stakeout sounds amazing
[01:12] <FMD> Hmm... Stakeout seems fine, if maybe a bit underpowered.
[01:12] <ZthePhone> IAR - I have a small PCT idea - every ASBer add a footnote on their post, just to say how long the claim queue is? Eg. "5 claims unapproved".
[01:12] <ZthePhone> Then approvers will be less likely to miss out each other's partial approval work.
[01:12] <ZthePhone> !asbility Stakeout
[01:12] <@~Its_A_Random> k
[01:12] <cloudraloo> what's the typing for the stakeout mon?
[01:13] <Exclaimer> I don't think it's underpowered
[01:13] <@~Its_A_Random> it's gumshoos lol
[01:13] <FMD> Normal.
[01:13] <cloudraloo> cool
[01:14] <FMD> For ~90% of the time, Stakeout will have no effect at all. :/
[01:14] <cloudraloo> But the threat of it is what really matters.
[01:14] <cloudraloo> (If gumshoos is any good)
[01:14] <ZthePhone> I'm going to have this really thick dahl for the next three meals, anyone want in? :D
[01:14] <Exclaimer> Idk gumshoos sounds great for punishing switch phases.
[01:15] <@~Its_A_Random> it will be resident rodent so don't expect much
[01:15] <cloudraloo> :(
[01:15] <cloudraloo> !asbstats raticate
[01:15] <ToonDizzy> Rawr
[01:15] <ZthePhone> What was BW's rodent, again?
[01:15] <Exclaimer> ASB Needs Better Diggersbys
[01:16] <Exclaimer> BW got Watchog
[01:16] <FMD> That's the problem. Gomshoos probably won't be able to threaten anything out, so the threat of Stakeout won't really do much.
[01:16] <FMD> Dahl?
[01:16] <@Texas> for asb purposes stakeout will probably have to be restricted specifically to affecting uturn/parting shot/volt switch
[01:16] <@Texas> but then it could be a sufficiently punishing effect
[01:16] <@Texas> doubling bap for instance
[01:16] <Exclaimer> That's not a problem with Stakeout, that's a problem with Gumshoos
[01:16] <ToonDizzy> What about teleport?
[01:16] <@Texas> and baton pass
[01:16] <ZthePhone> !u dahl
[01:16] <FMD> Best rodents are Azumaril and uglybun, but they have Huge Power.
[01:16] <FMD> I guess Gumshoos can hit hard with Stakeout fang moves?
[01:16] <TIBot> Dahl: Being a "Dahl" generally comes from having the last name of "Dahl." When you are in fact a "Dahl," you are more than likely brilliant, gorgeous, and far more charismatic than your fellow peers, not to mention hilarious.
[01:16] <@Texas> teleport etc
[01:16] <@Texas> self switching moves
[01:17] <cloudraloo> I mean, if gumshoos is bad, then there's not much we can do
[01:17] <cloudraloo> aside from super sig item buffs
[01:17] <ZthePhone> I dunno Tex, normal Switch phases probably can be included too.
[01:17] <FMD> They definitely should be.
[01:17] <@Texas> i dont see how that's possible unless we create a new mechanic or do something i dont personally agree with
[01:17] <ZthePhone> Since your average mon will likely beatdown the Gumshoo under normal circumstances.
[01:18] <FMD> How would it not, Texas?
[01:18] <ZthePhone> Something like,
[01:18] <@Texas> let me turn that around
[01:18] <@Texas> what would you propose
[01:18] <@Texas> to affect normal switch phases
[01:19] <ZthePhone> First one or two actions after any switch, Stakeout mon gets doubled BAP.
[01:19] <FMD> 20:10:16 Its_A_Random "Stakeout - Passive | Mold Breaker: No | Attacks have double BAP on a Pokémon that switched in this round. Must be already out to get the benefit."
[01:19] <@Texas> yeah i'm personally opposed to that
[01:19] <ZthePhone> Or what she said he said.
[01:19] <cloudraloo> Would it be too strong if we let it get boosts from counterswitching in?
[01:19] <DeathWriter> FMD up
[01:19] <ZthePhone> I think yes Oora.
[01:20] <Exclaimer> I doubt that it'll make Gumshoos a major contender, because if you just stay in and beat on it, like most mons could definitely do
[01:20] <Exclaimer> It gets stuck with a useless ability
[01:20] <ZthePhone> "Counterswitch ACCEPTED. Gumshoos IN."
[01:20] <ZthePhone> "MUAHAHAHA'
[01:20] <ZthePhone> '
[01:20] <FMD> Other way around.
[01:20] <@Texas> Its_A_Random: it is my opinion that granting doubled BAP to all attacks in the round following a switch phase will be overpowered on any pokemon and simply adding a +3 BAP will be underpowered and consigned to uselessness. My personal proposal is to double the BAP with Gumshoos attacks a Pokemon using or set to use a self-switching move
[01:21] <FMD> Switch in Gumshoos, if counterswitch, then it gets the boost.
[01:21] <cloudraloo> fmd, he's responding to my idea
[01:21] <@Texas> i can't get behind the ability to use a 28 BAP move twice in a round solely for switching
[01:21] <FMD> I assumed you misspoke, Ooraloo. <.<
[01:21] <@~Its_A_Random> it's a first draft at any rate but it will be considered
[01:21] <ZthePhone> Eh, that is kinda iffy, FMD.
[01:21] <@Texas> presuming that the WC corresponds to a 14 BAP giga impact
[01:21] <ZthePhone> Or Tex, instead of a whole round, maybe just 1/2a?
[01:21] <@~Its_A_Random> stakeout was never going to be easy to deal with anyway
[01:22] <FMD> How about +5 BAP?
[01:22] <Exclaimer> Even if it got to do that, I doubt it'll be broken or anything
[01:22] <@Texas> i believe that to be convoluted and potentially underpowered
[01:22] <Exclaimer> Mega Kangaskhan exists and does that way better under any circumstance
[01:22] <@Texas> fmd as i alluded to i dont think flat bap boosts are sufficient
[01:22] <@Texas> i think thedouble BAP needs to be a part of it
[01:22] <@Texas> and i think the best way to do that is to punish the existing self switch mechanic
[01:23] <FMD> You only said +3 is too weak...
[01:23] <@Texas> once again you look too closely at the detail and not enough at the principle
[01:23] <cloudraloo> uhh, what's the EN split for Dig + Quick Attack
[01:24] <ZthePhone> Back to FMD - our switch phases are kind of muddled. So your counterswitching stuff could open up a can of worms involving say, revisiting trap Abilities.
[01:24] <FMD> Gumshoos really wants Hyper Fang to count as a biting move.
[01:24] <@Texas> +3 was used because it is the current "large" bap boost a la guts, etc
[01:24] <Exclaimer> cloudraloo: a 40/60 split
[01:24] <FMD> +3 is the 50% BAP boost...
[01:24] <cloudraloo> so 60% on evade, 40% on hit
[01:24] <cloudraloo> !asbmove dg
[01:24] <@Texas> the principle being that I do not believe flat BAP boosts to be an effective means to address this
[01:24] <Exclaimer> Other way around
[01:24] <ZthePhone> Yeah, we've never had a doubling BAP except HH.
[01:24] <cloudraloo> !asbmove dig
[01:24] <FMD> But Zt, those are entirely different concepts.
[01:25] <cloudraloo> !asbmove quickattack
[01:25] <@Texas> or a desirable one for that matter
[01:25] <ZthePhone> FMD - so you can probably just chalk that down to me being paranoid v_v
[01:25] <@Texas> as I said, i believe we should remain true to the doubled BAP which will inherently make the ability worthwhile, and limit the situations in which it applies to ones that are competitively viable but not overpowered
[01:26] <@Texas> i.e. targeting the self switching mechanic
[01:26] <FMD> Adaptability is a x2 we have and it's +5 (+3 and +2 together).
[01:26] <@Texas> i think targeting the switch phase mechanic is convoluted, open to abuse, potentially both overpowered and underpowered
[01:26] <@Texas> and not a road we should go down, especially when another viable alternative exist
[01:26] <FMD> A pursuit-esque boost will be a complete reversal of what the ability does.
[01:26] <@Texas> that being targeting the self switch mechanic
[01:27] <@~Its_A_Random> stakeout will not be the only controversial ability for implementation
[01:27] <@~Its_A_Random> Disguise - Passive | Mold Breaker: Yes | Summons a disguise on send-out. Blocks all attacks. Fades if hit by a damaging move. If hit by multi-hit with disguise up, absorbs one hit of a multi-hit move.
[01:27] <@~Its_A_Random> thoughts?
[01:27] <ZthePhone> So, a clash of principles..?
[01:27] <FMD> Okay, how do you target U-Turn without it being the same as Pursuit's effect?
[01:27] <@Texas> My personal proposal is to double the BAP with Gumshoos attacks a Pokemon using or set to use a self-switching move
[01:27] <FMD> I'm fine with that, IAR.
[01:27] <@Texas> i dont particularly care if it is or isnt the same as pursuit's effect
[01:28] <@Texas> that is not a relevant concern
[01:28] <@Texas> seems reasonable IAR
[01:28] <ZthePhone> IAR - so basically a 1HP Sub with extra benefits?
[01:28] <FMD> But it's not what the ability does at all.
[01:28] <@Texas> possibly overpowered
[01:28] <@~Its_A_Random> basically ZthePhone
[01:28] <Exclaimer> !asbstats diggersby
[01:29] <@Texas> perhaps this is a concept unfamiliar to you, but there is a line that we must straddle between staying true to original game mechanics and compromising on mechanics so that we can create effects that are both competitively balanced and competitively viable
[01:29] <@Texas> i have stated my opposition to your proposal on those bases
[01:29] <ZthePhone> I like it. I'd maybe word to explicitly give it a regular 5 HP Sub, just for kicks.
[01:29] <FMD> Stakeout has absolutely no effect on the Pokemon that's switching out. You're trying to make it have an effect on ONLY the Pokemon switching out.
[01:29] <%Rainman> Yea uhh I'd personally it be balanced rather than true to ingame
[01:30] <ZthePhone> Why not both, is what I'd ask.
[01:30] <Exclaimer> I prefer balance but I don't see Gumshoos as being overpowered with that ability, even with Strong Jaws included
[01:30] <@Texas> FMD we do not have an equal representation to the in0game switching mechanic that Stakeout targets
[01:30] <@Texas> we must inherently compromise on the mechanical implementation
[01:30] <Exclaimer> Unless it gets boosts similar stats to Sableye or Diggersby where it gets multiple boosts to multiple stats via Rare Candy
[01:30] <FMD> A +5 after something switches in is powerful, not broken, fits in-game, and I see no problem with it.
[01:31] <@Texas> You may not
[01:31] <@Texas> I've said all that needs to be said about my position for the time being
[01:31] <@Texas> And it seems that you have done similarly
[01:32] <FMD> Does anybody other than Texas think that +5 for a round under or over powered? :/
[01:32] <@~Its_A_Random> wimp out will be tricky
[01:33] <@~Its_A_Random> esp since switch = ko exists
[01:33] <DeathWriter> it could work the same way as dragon tail and similar moves in switch ko
[01:33] <DeathWriter> maybe idk
[01:33] <ZthePhone> Free Protect or something?
[01:33] <FMD> I say it gets Escape Button's effect of dodging one move.
[01:33] <Exclaimer> FMD, you're up vs DeathWriter still btw
[01:34] <FMD> @asbitem Escape Button
[01:34] <+ASBot> Item not found.
[01:34] <FMD> Ugh... what's the name?
[01:34] <DeathWriter> @asbitem Eject Button
[01:34] <+ASBot> Eject Button | Item Type: Consumable | Cost: 6 CC | Affected Pokemon: All | Max Uses Per Match: Once | Trigger: Commanded - [Upon being hit by *insert move* or *insert opponent* or Any Move THEN Activate Eject Button, Effect 1 or 2] | Nat. Gift Type: N/A | Nat. Gift BAP: N/A
[01:34] <+ASBot> After being struck by an opposing Pokemon's attack, during that action, this may be activated by the player without using an action. To activate it use the trigger syntax or anything similar, without it taking a sub slot. The player can specify an attack, an opponent or make it activate after any attack. When activated, this item is consumed and the activating Pokemon may do any one of the following:
[01:34] <+ASBot> 1: Be guaranteed a successful dodge against the opposing Pokemon's next action
[01:34] <+ASBot> 2: Switch out at the end of the round to another of the player's Pokemon of their choosing (Cannot be chosen if Switch=KO or the player has no other available Pokemon)
[01:34] <DeathWriter> that?
[01:35] <ZthePhone> Well, looks good enough.
[01:35] Matezoide (uid155551@synIRC-924C5ACA.brockwell.irccloud.com) joined #capasb.
[01:35] <Matezoide> Yo Its_A_Random
[01:35] <@~Its_A_Random> Going to make dancer a toggle ability as a fail safe for being en drained into an en ko
[01:35] <@~Its_A_Random> hey
[01:35] <Matezoide> Was Ash-Greninja officially confirmed?
[01:35] <Matezoide> Or you put that in just in case?
[01:36] <ZthePhone> Dogfish-Emolga YEEEAAAH
[01:36] <FMD> Seems fair, IAR.
[01:36] <Matezoide> Also yeah, toggle for dancer sounds good
[01:36] <@~Its_A_Random> Matezoide: just in case
[01:37] FMD (Mibbit@F52852D4.826D74C9.DBCFBE7F.IP) left irc: Quit: Brb.
[01:37] <Matezoide> Alright, makes sense
[01:38] <Matezoide> Any other ability you guys are trying to think how to implement? Wimp Out seems annoying
[01:38] <@Texas> quick question for you guys
[01:38] <cloudraloo> i hope we get a special huge power clone
[01:38] <cloudraloo> and give it to stunfisk
[01:38] <@Texas> can anyone think of an ability that adds between 15 and 22.5 damage across three actions
[01:39] <ZthePhone> Anger Point.
[01:39] <Matezoide> Adaptability on a x4 weak mon
[01:39] <cloudraloo> everstone protean
[01:39] <Matezoide> Zt dont be silly Anger Point is 36 :^]
[01:39] <@Texas> keep going
[01:39] <Matezoide> Parental Bond?
[01:40] <cloudraloo> huge power
[01:40] <Matezoide> Pure Power
[01:40] <@Texas> ideally ignore things that depend on ranks
[01:40] <cloudraloo> mate power
[01:40] <@Texas> those arent accurate depictions for this purpose
[01:40] <Matezoide> Fair enough
[01:40] <@Texas> pure damage increases
[01:40] <@Texas> whether through bap boosts or otheriwse
[01:40] <@Texas> rank boosts over average are acceptable
[01:40] <Exclaimer> Texas, does Protean not count for your descriptions
[01:40] <@Texas> type coverage acceptable only up to SE
[01:41] <@Texas> protean will serve
[01:41] <Matezoide> Mold Breaker with OHKO moves against Sturdy mons?
[01:41] <ZthePhone> LO SF
[01:41] <Exclaimer> it'll give 13.5 extra damage only actually
[01:41] <Matezoide> Obvious stretch though
[01:41] FMD (Mibbit@F52852D4.826D74C9.DBCFBE7F.IP) joined #capasb.
[01:41] <@Texas> Anger Point after a crit, Adaptability on a 4x weak mon, Parental Bond, Life Orb Sheer Force
[01:42] <@Texas> the current list of moves that give between 15 and 22.5 extra damage across 3 actions
[01:42] <Exclaimer> Oh across three actions
[01:42] <Exclaimer> Protean can work
[01:42] <@Texas> all extremely strong yeah?
[01:42] <FMD> I miss anything?
[01:42] <Matezoide> Rivalry on x4 weak mons i guess?
[01:42] <@Texas> now consider +5 BAP for the first three actions after a switch
[01:42] <@Texas> same power level
[01:42] <ZthePhone> Most of them extremely situational too, Tex.
[01:42] <@Texas> precisely
[01:43] <ZthePhone> With exception of Protean.
[01:43] <Exclaimer> And parental bond and sheer force
[01:43] <@~Its_A_Random> !asbility swift swim
[01:43] <ZthePhone> Parental Bond at least has an inherent cost.
[01:43] <Matezoide> Yeah only Parental Bond isnt really situational, but thats a Mega
[01:43] <DeathWriter> mega launcher with the appropriate move against 4x weak?
[01:43] <FMD> I say we match Adaptability's +5 (because it's a modifier to STAB, I'm including the +3 with the +2 for +5).
[01:43] <Matezoide> Oh Technician as well, Tex
[01:43] <@Texas> tech caps at 13.5 no?
[01:44] <@Texas> 6*`1.5 for a 3 BAP boost, 4.5 per at 2x SE
[01:44] <ZthePhone> But you've made your point.
[01:44] <FMD> Multi-hit moves, +5 each use, +15 over 3 attacks.
[01:44] <Matezoide> Multi-hit moves though, but i guess it would need Skill Link with it
[01:44] <Matezoide> What ability is this about?
[01:45] <Matezoide> Gumshoe?
[01:45] <@Texas> i was illustrating the power level of stakeout when a +5 modifier is used
[01:45] <ZthePhone> Yup Mate.
[01:45] <cloudraloo> Can't we just make stakeout work like parental bond?
[01:45] <ZthePhone> Yeah Tex, but it is easily scalable. That is my counter.
[01:45] <@~Its_A_Random> I've added ability list for now, no changes to stakeout at the present moment since I am more concerned with getting things up for now though that does not mean I have ignored this convo
[01:45] <FMD> Powerful, yes, but anything switching in on something with it will always be the best Pokemon left to deal with it.
[01:46] <@Texas> 1.5x BAP for the round? worth consideration
[01:46] <FMD> I'd be okay with x1.5 for a round.
[01:46] <ZthePhone> If +5 BAP for 3a is unacceptable, we can just as easily scale it to 2a duration. Not super-convoluted at all.
[01:47] <@Texas> i'm pretty fundamentally opposed to having the ability work for 2a as opposed to a rounds duration
[01:47] <@~Its_A_Random> !asbmove absorb
[01:47] <Matezoide> Eh, i guess it would depend on Gumshoe's power as well
[01:47] <Matezoide> As for that point, i would agree with Texas
[01:47] <@Texas> its not consistent with how we have the system set up
[01:47] <Matezoide> 2 actions is just...
[01:47] <Matezoide> Clunky.
[01:47] <FMD> I assume Gumshoos will have pretty decent coverage.
[01:47] <@Texas> at the moment i'd say there's three viable proposals
[01:48] <@Texas> the +5 Bap for the first round post switch, the 1.5x BAP for the first round post switch, and my double BAP when attacking an enemy using a self-switching move
[01:48] <Matezoide> We could leave those three proposals and have a vote once we have more information on the pokemon that get these moves, i believe
[01:49] <Matezoide> It is good to have a general idea at this moment, but we can have a final decision once we know more
[01:49] <FMD> We have like 4 months to decide, so there's no rush.
[01:49] <@Texas> indeed
[01:50] <@Texas> similarly though, there's no need to decide on one outcome and leave it to sit and become familiar for four months
[01:50] <@Texas> as was a possible outcome had the original proposal not been challenged
[01:10] <@~Its_A_Random> "Stakeout - Passive | Mold Breaker: No | Attacks have double BAP on a Pokémon that switched in this round. Must be already out to get the benefit."
[01:10] <@~Its_A_Random> and
[01:10] <@~Its_A_Random> "Power Construct - Toggle | Mold Breaker: No | Transforms into Zygarde Complete when HP < 50%. HP increased by the amount of HP Zygarde Complete has over original forme. Cannot be reversed. Immune to copying and removal. No effect when toggled."
[01:10] ZthePhone (uid112365@synIRC-324D3D10.brockwell.irccloud.com) joined #capasb.
[01:10] <ZthePhone> Morning peeps.
[01:11] <@~Its_A_Random> I'm basically doing first drafts of asb abilities / moves converted to an asb sense
[01:11] <Exclaimer> I like Stakeout just like that, but I've no idea what to think about Power Construct.
[01:11] <@~Its_A_Random> !asbility drizzle
[01:12] <cloudraloo> Stakeout sounds amazing
[01:12] <FMD> Hmm... Stakeout seems fine, if maybe a bit underpowered.
[01:12] <ZthePhone> IAR - I have a small PCT idea - every ASBer add a footnote on their post, just to say how long the claim queue is? Eg. "5 claims unapproved".
[01:12] <ZthePhone> Then approvers will be less likely to miss out each other's partial approval work.
[01:12] <ZthePhone> !asbility Stakeout
[01:12] <@~Its_A_Random> k
[01:12] <cloudraloo> what's the typing for the stakeout mon?
[01:13] <Exclaimer> I don't think it's underpowered
[01:13] <@~Its_A_Random> it's gumshoos lol
[01:13] <FMD> Normal.
[01:13] <cloudraloo> cool
[01:14] <FMD> For ~90% of the time, Stakeout will have no effect at all. :/
[01:14] <cloudraloo> But the threat of it is what really matters.
[01:14] <cloudraloo> (If gumshoos is any good)
[01:14] <ZthePhone> I'm going to have this really thick dahl for the next three meals, anyone want in? :D
[01:14] <Exclaimer> Idk gumshoos sounds great for punishing switch phases.
[01:15] <@~Its_A_Random> it will be resident rodent so don't expect much
[01:15] <cloudraloo> :(
[01:15] <cloudraloo> !asbstats raticate
[01:15] <ToonDizzy> Rawr
[01:15] <ZthePhone> What was BW's rodent, again?
[01:15] <Exclaimer> ASB Needs Better Diggersbys
[01:16] <Exclaimer> BW got Watchog
[01:16] <FMD> That's the problem. Gomshoos probably won't be able to threaten anything out, so the threat of Stakeout won't really do much.
[01:16] <FMD> Dahl?
[01:16] <@Texas> for asb purposes stakeout will probably have to be restricted specifically to affecting uturn/parting shot/volt switch
[01:16] <@Texas> but then it could be a sufficiently punishing effect
[01:16] <@Texas> doubling bap for instance
[01:16] <Exclaimer> That's not a problem with Stakeout, that's a problem with Gumshoos
[01:16] <ToonDizzy> What about teleport?
[01:16] <@Texas> and baton pass
[01:16] <ZthePhone> !u dahl
[01:16] <FMD> Best rodents are Azumaril and uglybun, but they have Huge Power.
[01:16] <FMD> I guess Gumshoos can hit hard with Stakeout fang moves?
[01:16] <TIBot> Dahl: Being a "Dahl" generally comes from having the last name of "Dahl." When you are in fact a "Dahl," you are more than likely brilliant, gorgeous, and far more charismatic than your fellow peers, not to mention hilarious.
[01:16] <@Texas> teleport etc
[01:16] <@Texas> self switching moves
[01:17] <cloudraloo> I mean, if gumshoos is bad, then there's not much we can do
[01:17] <cloudraloo> aside from super sig item buffs
[01:17] <ZthePhone> I dunno Tex, normal Switch phases probably can be included too.
[01:17] <FMD> They definitely should be.
[01:17] <@Texas> i dont see how that's possible unless we create a new mechanic or do something i dont personally agree with
[01:17] <ZthePhone> Since your average mon will likely beatdown the Gumshoo under normal circumstances.
[01:18] <FMD> How would it not, Texas?
[01:18] <ZthePhone> Something like,
[01:18] <@Texas> let me turn that around
[01:18] <@Texas> what would you propose
[01:18] <@Texas> to affect normal switch phases
[01:19] <ZthePhone> First one or two actions after any switch, Stakeout mon gets doubled BAP.
[01:19] <FMD> 20:10:16 Its_A_Random "Stakeout - Passive | Mold Breaker: No | Attacks have double BAP on a Pokémon that switched in this round. Must be already out to get the benefit."
[01:19] <@Texas> yeah i'm personally opposed to that
[01:19] <ZthePhone> Or what she said he said.
[01:19] <cloudraloo> Would it be too strong if we let it get boosts from counterswitching in?
[01:19] <DeathWriter> FMD up
[01:19] <ZthePhone> I think yes Oora.
[01:20] <Exclaimer> I doubt that it'll make Gumshoos a major contender, because if you just stay in and beat on it, like most mons could definitely do
[01:20] <Exclaimer> It gets stuck with a useless ability
[01:20] <ZthePhone> "Counterswitch ACCEPTED. Gumshoos IN."
[01:20] <ZthePhone> "MUAHAHAHA'
[01:20] <ZthePhone> '
[01:20] <FMD> Other way around.
[01:20] <@Texas> Its_A_Random: it is my opinion that granting doubled BAP to all attacks in the round following a switch phase will be overpowered on any pokemon and simply adding a +3 BAP will be underpowered and consigned to uselessness. My personal proposal is to double the BAP with Gumshoos attacks a Pokemon using or set to use a self-switching move
[01:21] <FMD> Switch in Gumshoos, if counterswitch, then it gets the boost.
[01:21] <cloudraloo> fmd, he's responding to my idea
[01:21] <@Texas> i can't get behind the ability to use a 28 BAP move twice in a round solely for switching
[01:21] <FMD> I assumed you misspoke, Ooraloo. <.<
[01:21] <@~Its_A_Random> it's a first draft at any rate but it will be considered
[01:21] <ZthePhone> Eh, that is kinda iffy, FMD.
[01:21] <@Texas> presuming that the WC corresponds to a 14 BAP giga impact
[01:21] <ZthePhone> Or Tex, instead of a whole round, maybe just 1/2a?
[01:21] <@~Its_A_Random> stakeout was never going to be easy to deal with anyway
[01:22] <FMD> How about +5 BAP?
[01:22] <Exclaimer> Even if it got to do that, I doubt it'll be broken or anything
[01:22] <@Texas> i believe that to be convoluted and potentially underpowered
[01:22] <Exclaimer> Mega Kangaskhan exists and does that way better under any circumstance
[01:22] <@Texas> fmd as i alluded to i dont think flat bap boosts are sufficient
[01:22] <@Texas> i think thedouble BAP needs to be a part of it
[01:22] <@Texas> and i think the best way to do that is to punish the existing self switch mechanic
[01:23] <FMD> You only said +3 is too weak...
[01:23] <@Texas> once again you look too closely at the detail and not enough at the principle
[01:23] <cloudraloo> uhh, what's the EN split for Dig + Quick Attack
[01:24] <ZthePhone> Back to FMD - our switch phases are kind of muddled. So your counterswitching stuff could open up a can of worms involving say, revisiting trap Abilities.
[01:24] <FMD> Gumshoos really wants Hyper Fang to count as a biting move.
[01:24] <@Texas> +3 was used because it is the current "large" bap boost a la guts, etc
[01:24] <Exclaimer> cloudraloo: a 40/60 split
[01:24] <FMD> +3 is the 50% BAP boost...
[01:24] <cloudraloo> so 60% on evade, 40% on hit
[01:24] <cloudraloo> !asbmove dg
[01:24] <@Texas> the principle being that I do not believe flat BAP boosts to be an effective means to address this
[01:24] <Exclaimer> Other way around
[01:24] <ZthePhone> Yeah, we've never had a doubling BAP except HH.
[01:24] <cloudraloo> !asbmove dig
[01:24] <FMD> But Zt, those are entirely different concepts.
[01:25] <cloudraloo> !asbmove quickattack
[01:25] <@Texas> or a desirable one for that matter
[01:25] <ZthePhone> FMD - so you can probably just chalk that down to me being paranoid v_v
[01:25] <@Texas> as I said, i believe we should remain true to the doubled BAP which will inherently make the ability worthwhile, and limit the situations in which it applies to ones that are competitively viable but not overpowered
[01:26] <@Texas> i.e. targeting the self switching mechanic
[01:26] <FMD> Adaptability is a x2 we have and it's +5 (+3 and +2 together).
[01:26] <@Texas> i think targeting the switch phase mechanic is convoluted, open to abuse, potentially both overpowered and underpowered
[01:26] <@Texas> and not a road we should go down, especially when another viable alternative exist
[01:26] <FMD> A pursuit-esque boost will be a complete reversal of what the ability does.
[01:26] <@Texas> that being targeting the self switch mechanic
[01:27] <@~Its_A_Random> stakeout will not be the only controversial ability for implementation
[01:27] <@~Its_A_Random> Disguise - Passive | Mold Breaker: Yes | Summons a disguise on send-out. Blocks all attacks. Fades if hit by a damaging move. If hit by multi-hit with disguise up, absorbs one hit of a multi-hit move.
[01:27] <@~Its_A_Random> thoughts?
[01:27] <ZthePhone> So, a clash of principles..?
[01:27] <FMD> Okay, how do you target U-Turn without it being the same as Pursuit's effect?
[01:27] <@Texas> My personal proposal is to double the BAP with Gumshoos attacks a Pokemon using or set to use a self-switching move
[01:27] <FMD> I'm fine with that, IAR.
[01:27] <@Texas> i dont particularly care if it is or isnt the same as pursuit's effect
[01:28] <@Texas> that is not a relevant concern
[01:28] <@Texas> seems reasonable IAR
[01:28] <ZthePhone> IAR - so basically a 1HP Sub with extra benefits?
[01:28] <FMD> But it's not what the ability does at all.
[01:28] <@Texas> possibly overpowered
[01:28] <@~Its_A_Random> basically ZthePhone
[01:28] <Exclaimer> !asbstats diggersby
[01:29] <@Texas> perhaps this is a concept unfamiliar to you, but there is a line that we must straddle between staying true to original game mechanics and compromising on mechanics so that we can create effects that are both competitively balanced and competitively viable
[01:29] <@Texas> i have stated my opposition to your proposal on those bases
[01:29] <ZthePhone> I like it. I'd maybe word to explicitly give it a regular 5 HP Sub, just for kicks.
[01:29] <FMD> Stakeout has absolutely no effect on the Pokemon that's switching out. You're trying to make it have an effect on ONLY the Pokemon switching out.
[01:29] <%Rainman> Yea uhh I'd personally it be balanced rather than true to ingame
[01:30] <ZthePhone> Why not both, is what I'd ask.
[01:30] <Exclaimer> I prefer balance but I don't see Gumshoos as being overpowered with that ability, even with Strong Jaws included
[01:30] <@Texas> FMD we do not have an equal representation to the in0game switching mechanic that Stakeout targets
[01:30] <@Texas> we must inherently compromise on the mechanical implementation
[01:30] <Exclaimer> Unless it gets boosts similar stats to Sableye or Diggersby where it gets multiple boosts to multiple stats via Rare Candy
[01:30] <FMD> A +5 after something switches in is powerful, not broken, fits in-game, and I see no problem with it.
[01:31] <@Texas> You may not
[01:31] <@Texas> I've said all that needs to be said about my position for the time being
[01:31] <@Texas> And it seems that you have done similarly
[01:32] <FMD> Does anybody other than Texas think that +5 for a round under or over powered? :/
[01:32] <@~Its_A_Random> wimp out will be tricky
[01:33] <@~Its_A_Random> esp since switch = ko exists
[01:33] <DeathWriter> it could work the same way as dragon tail and similar moves in switch ko
[01:33] <DeathWriter> maybe idk
[01:33] <ZthePhone> Free Protect or something?
[01:33] <FMD> I say it gets Escape Button's effect of dodging one move.
[01:33] <Exclaimer> FMD, you're up vs DeathWriter still btw
[01:34] <FMD> @asbitem Escape Button
[01:34] <+ASBot> Item not found.
[01:34] <FMD> Ugh... what's the name?
[01:34] <DeathWriter> @asbitem Eject Button
[01:34] <+ASBot> Eject Button | Item Type: Consumable | Cost: 6 CC | Affected Pokemon: All | Max Uses Per Match: Once | Trigger: Commanded - [Upon being hit by *insert move* or *insert opponent* or Any Move THEN Activate Eject Button, Effect 1 or 2] | Nat. Gift Type: N/A | Nat. Gift BAP: N/A
[01:34] <+ASBot> After being struck by an opposing Pokemon's attack, during that action, this may be activated by the player without using an action. To activate it use the trigger syntax or anything similar, without it taking a sub slot. The player can specify an attack, an opponent or make it activate after any attack. When activated, this item is consumed and the activating Pokemon may do any one of the following:
[01:34] <+ASBot> 1: Be guaranteed a successful dodge against the opposing Pokemon's next action
[01:34] <+ASBot> 2: Switch out at the end of the round to another of the player's Pokemon of their choosing (Cannot be chosen if Switch=KO or the player has no other available Pokemon)
[01:34] <DeathWriter> that?
[01:35] <ZthePhone> Well, looks good enough.
[01:35] Matezoide (uid155551@synIRC-924C5ACA.brockwell.irccloud.com) joined #capasb.
[01:35] <Matezoide> Yo Its_A_Random
[01:35] <@~Its_A_Random> Going to make dancer a toggle ability as a fail safe for being en drained into an en ko
[01:35] <@~Its_A_Random> hey
[01:35] <Matezoide> Was Ash-Greninja officially confirmed?
[01:35] <Matezoide> Or you put that in just in case?
[01:36] <ZthePhone> Dogfish-Emolga YEEEAAAH
[01:36] <FMD> Seems fair, IAR.
[01:36] <Matezoide> Also yeah, toggle for dancer sounds good
[01:36] <@~Its_A_Random> Matezoide: just in case
[01:37] FMD (Mibbit@F52852D4.826D74C9.DBCFBE7F.IP) left irc: Quit: Brb.
[01:37] <Matezoide> Alright, makes sense
[01:38] <Matezoide> Any other ability you guys are trying to think how to implement? Wimp Out seems annoying
[01:38] <@Texas> quick question for you guys
[01:38] <cloudraloo> i hope we get a special huge power clone
[01:38] <cloudraloo> and give it to stunfisk
[01:38] <@Texas> can anyone think of an ability that adds between 15 and 22.5 damage across three actions
[01:39] <ZthePhone> Anger Point.
[01:39] <Matezoide> Adaptability on a x4 weak mon
[01:39] <cloudraloo> everstone protean
[01:39] <Matezoide> Zt dont be silly Anger Point is 36 :^]
[01:39] <@Texas> keep going
[01:39] <Matezoide> Parental Bond?
[01:40] <cloudraloo> huge power
[01:40] <Matezoide> Pure Power
[01:40] <@Texas> ideally ignore things that depend on ranks
[01:40] <cloudraloo> mate power
[01:40] <@Texas> those arent accurate depictions for this purpose
[01:40] <Matezoide> Fair enough
[01:40] <@Texas> pure damage increases
[01:40] <@Texas> whether through bap boosts or otheriwse
[01:40] <@Texas> rank boosts over average are acceptable
[01:40] <Exclaimer> Texas, does Protean not count for your descriptions
[01:40] <@Texas> type coverage acceptable only up to SE
[01:41] <@Texas> protean will serve
[01:41] <Matezoide> Mold Breaker with OHKO moves against Sturdy mons?
[01:41] <ZthePhone> LO SF
[01:41] <Exclaimer> it'll give 13.5 extra damage only actually
[01:41] <Matezoide> Obvious stretch though
[01:41] FMD (Mibbit@F52852D4.826D74C9.DBCFBE7F.IP) joined #capasb.
[01:41] <@Texas> Anger Point after a crit, Adaptability on a 4x weak mon, Parental Bond, Life Orb Sheer Force
[01:42] <@Texas> the current list of moves that give between 15 and 22.5 extra damage across 3 actions
[01:42] <Exclaimer> Oh across three actions
[01:42] <Exclaimer> Protean can work
[01:42] <@Texas> all extremely strong yeah?
[01:42] <FMD> I miss anything?
[01:42] <Matezoide> Rivalry on x4 weak mons i guess?
[01:42] <@Texas> now consider +5 BAP for the first three actions after a switch
[01:42] <@Texas> same power level
[01:42] <ZthePhone> Most of them extremely situational too, Tex.
[01:42] <@Texas> precisely
[01:43] <ZthePhone> With exception of Protean.
[01:43] <Exclaimer> And parental bond and sheer force
[01:43] <@~Its_A_Random> !asbility swift swim
[01:43] <ZthePhone> Parental Bond at least has an inherent cost.
[01:43] <Matezoide> Yeah only Parental Bond isnt really situational, but thats a Mega
[01:43] <DeathWriter> mega launcher with the appropriate move against 4x weak?
[01:43] <FMD> I say we match Adaptability's +5 (because it's a modifier to STAB, I'm including the +3 with the +2 for +5).
[01:43] <Matezoide> Oh Technician as well, Tex
[01:43] <@Texas> tech caps at 13.5 no?
[01:44] <@Texas> 6*`1.5 for a 3 BAP boost, 4.5 per at 2x SE
[01:44] <ZthePhone> But you've made your point.
[01:44] <FMD> Multi-hit moves, +5 each use, +15 over 3 attacks.
[01:44] <Matezoide> Multi-hit moves though, but i guess it would need Skill Link with it
[01:44] <Matezoide> What ability is this about?
[01:45] <Matezoide> Gumshoe?
[01:45] <@Texas> i was illustrating the power level of stakeout when a +5 modifier is used
[01:45] <ZthePhone> Yup Mate.
[01:45] <cloudraloo> Can't we just make stakeout work like parental bond?
[01:45] <ZthePhone> Yeah Tex, but it is easily scalable. That is my counter.
[01:45] <@~Its_A_Random> I've added ability list for now, no changes to stakeout at the present moment since I am more concerned with getting things up for now though that does not mean I have ignored this convo
[01:45] <FMD> Powerful, yes, but anything switching in on something with it will always be the best Pokemon left to deal with it.
[01:46] <@Texas> 1.5x BAP for the round? worth consideration
[01:46] <FMD> I'd be okay with x1.5 for a round.
[01:46] <ZthePhone> If +5 BAP for 3a is unacceptable, we can just as easily scale it to 2a duration. Not super-convoluted at all.
[01:47] <@Texas> i'm pretty fundamentally opposed to having the ability work for 2a as opposed to a rounds duration
[01:47] <@~Its_A_Random> !asbmove absorb
[01:47] <Matezoide> Eh, i guess it would depend on Gumshoe's power as well
[01:47] <Matezoide> As for that point, i would agree with Texas
[01:47] <@Texas> its not consistent with how we have the system set up
[01:47] <Matezoide> 2 actions is just...
[01:47] <Matezoide> Clunky.
[01:47] <FMD> I assume Gumshoos will have pretty decent coverage.
[01:47] <@Texas> at the moment i'd say there's three viable proposals
[01:48] <@Texas> the +5 Bap for the first round post switch, the 1.5x BAP for the first round post switch, and my double BAP when attacking an enemy using a self-switching move
[01:48] <Matezoide> We could leave those three proposals and have a vote once we have more information on the pokemon that get these moves, i believe
[01:49] <Matezoide> It is good to have a general idea at this moment, but we can have a final decision once we know more
[01:49] <FMD> We have like 4 months to decide, so there's no rush.
[01:49] <@Texas> indeed
[01:50] <@Texas> similarly though, there's no need to decide on one outcome and leave it to sit and become familiar for four months
[01:50] <@Texas> as was a possible outcome had the original proposal not been challenged
So yeah, anyone want to help out? This will probably end up going to a council vote depending on whether or not we get a general consensus which we probably won't so expect a vote.
