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Stall, my love

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Woodchuck, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    stall me
    not my favorite song but it fits the thread so well

    Genny Edit


    Genny's approval: [1/1]

    This thread is for discussing:

    • How stall's viability has been affected by the bans of Excadrill and Thundurus
    • What Pokemon / moves / techniques / playstyles help beat stall
    First of all, I want to note that the recent bans have made stall much better. Thundurus and Excadrill were possibly the two most dangerous Pokemon against stall.

    For example, Excadrill completely screwed over stall. You cannot spinblock Excadrill. At all. You can bring in your ghost but it's going to be at risk to a +2 Earthquake (unless it's Gengar, but that dies to Rock Slide). Or, you can bring in Gliscor and get your hazards spun away and have Excadrill switch out into something that doesn't fear Gliscor (read: the majority of the metagame). Now, Gliscor is actually viable on stall teams, so you can switch into Excadrill just fine. But it's still wearing stuff down, spinning out your hazards... it doesn't help that it's immune to two of the most common statuses in OU.

    Now that Excadrill is gone, how will that move the metagame, and in turn how will that affect stall? Excadrill being gone seems to allow heavy offense to shine, and how will stall deal with that? Now that Gliscor isn't a near-necessity on stall teams, what Pokemon will fill that role as a physical wall? Right now I am seeing a fairly sizable uptick in the usage of Skarmory. Skarmory seems to be a superior physical wall to Gliscor as it can phaze, it has better coverage with one stronger attacking move, and it isn't completely useless against levitators. It also has a way of taking advantage of turns it gains by laying down Spikes. This is certainly a benefit stall has gained: it can deal with Dragon-types better and can run arguably superior or at least better-fitted Pokemon for whatever the team needs.

    This also may mark an end to the age of "run HP Ice on X physical attacker to beat Gliscor." Skarmory isn't nearly as easy to break with HP Fire, so other ways must be sought to eliminate it. I'll cover those in a later section of this post. Slowbro is also an excellent physical wall, being one of the few bulky waters that easily vanquish Ferrothorn. Regenerator allows it to switch in again and again- thoughts on its possible popularity in the future?

    Moving on to spinblocking. Since Excadrill is gone, Jellicent has gotten much better. It beats basically every spinner in existence as well as having an extremely useful typing, reliable recover, and also being one of the best stallbreakers in existence. BW stall and balanced used to involve spinblockers not being necessary; I've seen several RMTs where a Ghost-type was never deemed necessary, even on a spikestacking team. That is likely to change. Now that spinblocking is "possible", beating stall will become much harder than slapping a Forretress / Tentacruel / Starmie on to spin away those pesky hazards. Add this to how easy it is to lay hazards in the first place -- Ferrothorn, the ultimate hazards platform, combined with Deoxys-S, the ultimate suicide lead -- and it's easy to see how much better stall can be.

    That being said, how can you beat stall?

    There seem to be four main options of beating stall:

    1. Stat boosting
    2. Strong Choiced / Mixed Attackers
    3. Spinning / Other Stallbreaking Techniques
    4. Trapping
    Stat boosting. Oftentimes the best way to smash through a stall team is to weaken it gradually until you can bring in a Swords Dancer or a Nasty Plotter to sweep. Since the two premier users of both moves are gone, what will fill the void?

    Terrakion is probably all around the best stat booster in the meta. With Gliscor popularity dropping likely as not, it can easily come in, Swords Dance, and proceed to wreck opposing teams, fearing only a Stone Edge miss. It does have issues with Celebi and Slowbro as well as whatever revenge killers a stall team may run, but overall it is a solid choice, albeit being vulnerable to hazards and status.

    Celebi was once UU this gen, but it has really shined as a Nasty Plot sweeper. It, along with Virizion, is the bane of rain stall, only really being stopped by a Chansey or a Blissey.

    SubDD Dragonite easily sets up on and threatens a lot of Pokemon in stall. Yes, Steel-types wall it, but that's why trapping used.

    There are also other excellent Sub Boosters such as Latias; however, Dragonite seems to be the most effective one right now.

    Strong Choiced / Mixed Attackers. Perhaps one of the most infamous ones is CB Haxorus. While it has been extremely effective in the past -- largely helped by Gliscor being more popular than Skarmory -- with Gliscor dropping out of the limelight and Skarmory becoming more and more popular, its effectiveness may be falling. Another Dragon-type is possibly the most common Specs user -- Latios. Tyranitar usage shows no indication of dropping, but on teams that can eliminate it as well as steel-types from the picture, Latios can often switch in with impunity to smash things with a Draco Meteor.

    As for mixed attackers, Salamence is still a great mixed attacker that can come in, spam Draco Meteor, and Roost again and again. Infernape is also extremely effective, threatening pretty much everything in OU.

    Spinning seems to be less effective for the reasons stated before; Jellicent is better than ever. Donphan looks like it's getting more common as a spinner, and Trick Starmie seems like another possibility. Unfortunately, all spinners will have issues with Jellicent.

    Other Stallbreaking Techniques includes lots of things. For example, I can speed creep my Jellicent, block my opponent's spin, and Taunt stallbreak them. Mew is also one of the best stallbreakers out there. Calm Mind Espeon can often singlehandedly defeat full stall teams, as can Swords Dance Gliscor... though Gliscor can't sweep anything but stall.

    Trapping is a fun one. Wobbuffet is possibly one of the most overlooked stallbreakers in existence. It can switch in on a lot of pokes, Encore a recovery move, and Tickle or PP stall them out of recovery to bring in a Pursuiter. Dugtrio is not as effective against stall but forms the other half of "Wobbtrio" as well as handling pokes like Heatran and Tyranitar. Magnezone is also extremely useful in a DragMag combination, eliminating steel types for Dragon-types to wreak havoc.

    Well, that's all I have for now. How has stall changed with the bans? What new pokes are extremely effective on stall? How about against stall?

    I'll try and edit good ideas into the OP when I find the time.

    Final note: please don't just list things, give an explanation. Bare-boned lists killed the other thread.
  2. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    Stall is one of those teams that I just can't do. I guess it might require a specific, more patient type of person. Either way it's something I can never use effectively, but playing against it is the most amazing matches I usually have. Wallbreakers this gen are still everywhere. In one of my newer teams I used NP MixApe. However most stall teams this generation are running Tentacruel which stops my MixApe cold. When it comes to breaking stall completely though I run DD (or BU I guess) Scrafty. With either Moxie and Lum berry (on the DD) or shed skin + lefties (on BU) it basically just rapes stall completely. Though Skarmory exists, which puts a damper on Scrafty as a whole. I guess Magnezone + Scrafty is probably my most effective offensive core when breaking stall as a whole.
  3. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    SD Haxorus + something to lure in/deal with Skarmory also completely wrecks stall.
  4. yee

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    I would argue that Tangrowth has become almost as valuable as a pink blob to a stall team. It does an incredible job of holding off Choiced attackers, even recovering off most of the blow from a Terrakion Close Combat. Knock Off is a great move to throw around early on, whether you're leading against a CB Haxorus or giving clues to the moveset of whatever comes in, and always making it significantly harder for that poke to break up stall.

    Milotic deserves to be seen more on stallish teams. It takes on a mixwall role amazingly spreading Scald/Toxic around which is nasty and stopping potential headaches like Gyarados and Volcarona with Haze. It's so tough I've even walled some CM Virizion in a pinch, and taken crit Volt Switches from Rotom-W.

    Forretress + Tyranitar has always been a cool combo, and Volt Switch + CB Tar is an excellent way to get an easy spin now, if Jellicent even tries to touch Forry it's best situation is predicting a Pursuit and hoping WoW hits.

    Onto the biggest annoyances to stall I've faced- Mew is the obvious one, it doesn't have much trouble spreading WoW, but nailing it with a burning Scald helps a lot. Paralyzing it with a Jirachi Body Slam helped my Sub Dragonite force it out more easily, while Roserade took care of the burn on Rachi later. Stealth Rock Tyranitar and Rotom-W + Scizor are even more annoying. Tyranitar is annoyingly hard to spin on despite posing no threat itself and then once Rotom-W Volt Switches your special wall in the sand you're already down a lot of health for that Scizor. Fitting in a Gastrodon to avoid this cheap trick is harder to do on full stall.

    I may think of more stuff.

    Edit- Scrafty and Toxicroak are annoying to face. Fully stopped by Quagsire though, you really have to use one of those to understand how useful it is.
  5. WildfireXIII

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    You could also give it Taunt so that Skarmory can't Whirlwind you out as well as prevent their other pokemon from using their status moves. Then you can 2HKO Skarmory with +2 Outrage.

    Some other ways that I can think of beating stall are:

    Magic Bounce Espeon/Xatu. Having their own status moves and hazards being used against them is priceless.
    Magic Guard Alakazam. Right now the only thing I could think of is Specially Defensive Jirachi can take its attacks decently and beat it with Iron Head.
    Prankster Sableye. It has Taunt+WoW+Recover like Jellicent and Mew so it could technically stallbreak like them.
  6. iDunno

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    Now lets all not forget about our little amorphous friend Reuniclus! He is stall's worst nightmare. He has huge power right off the bat with Magic Guard+Life Orb so he can effectively weaken his switch-ins with a hit-and-run strategy and make it easy for his team mates to take them out. This metagame is like a chocolate buffet for this guy.
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Reuniclus is not tooo hard for stall to face. Its the "No1 Threat" which means every half decent stall team will prepare for it by running something like Reuniclus, CB Tyrantiar, or Quagsire, to name but a few.

    Stall can be exceptionally hard to deal with but there are a few things that still frustrate stall. Commonly, Mixed sweepers such as Salamence and Dragonite are still viable to break down stall teams.

    Another thing that frustrates stall (in my humble opinion) are running some rather unpredictable movesets. Note "unpredictable" rather than "gimmick'. For example I ran Swords Dance Mienshao which lures in unsuspecting Skarmory, OHKOs with High Jump Kick (after Stealth Rock) and then Baton Passes its boosts to another sweeper if Jellicent switchs in expecting to wall you. A little while ago I also run Rock Gem Terrakion on the Double Dance set to lure in Slowbro and then having a decent chance at a OHKO if SR was up and I got a SD up. Basically, little things like this can really frustrate stall and can give you an advantage if you play it right.

    EDIT yeah Lee it was your post that inspired me to test it :)
  8. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Why is always everyone simply trying to break through stall and few are actually trying to play it, when I make a stall team I always feel like I am on the short end of the stick, with the whole world against me. :(

    Anyway, stall's biggest problem this generation is the met game’s variety, its almost impossible to make a stall team that deals with everything in OU, at best you can deal with the most common sets, and just accept defeat from rare sets or pokemon. For example, a few of my stall teams had a deadly weakness to calm mind - sub Jirachi, but its relatively uncommon, so I don't sweat it too much. I often found the pokemon at the end of OU, or lower OU, gave stall the most problem because of there diversity, some of those pokemon are Scrafty, Virizion, and Lucario (although Lucario is moving up, but that a different story). Quite a few pokemon in UU this gen can give stall a major headache as well, like Mew and Sigliph. I really to have to agree with Giganinja, most of my losses are either due to terrible hax, or to some absurdly obscure set.

    The biggest thing about stall is your success depends on your team building, as with a stall team skill in battle isn't as important, it can come in handy, but stall, especially full stall, is relativity mindless. It comes down to, what can your team deal with, if its most of the metagame, then all you have to do is execute your team correctly and pray for less hax and common sets.
  9. mamoswineFTW

    mamoswineFTW

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    Another enemy of stall teams is the Trick-Choice method. Trust me, people do NOT like their walls losing their item, especially Ferro-cent, Skarm and pink blobs united, and having it replaced with a choice scarf. I'd like to propose this pokemon, which I've used to quite some success as a lead:

    Manectric @ Choice Scarf
    Modest, Lightningrod
    252 Sp Att, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    Thunderbolt/Volt Switch/Thunder
    Switcheroo
    Overheat
    HP Ice

    People underestimate just how hard this thing can hit. And not many people expect Overheat either. Here are some examples of what it can do:

    1) Opponent tries to use a choiced electric attack (eg Rotom-W with Volt Switch), get a free +1 switch in. This is a rain team, so opponent sends out Ferrothorn to take the expected electric attack, predict and use Overheat.

    At +1, Overheat from this guy does 80.7-95.5% damage to a 252 HP/252Sp Def Ferrothorn, IN THE RAIN! Only a 6% chance to KO with Rocks up, but an easy 2HKO. BOOM!

    2) Opponent tries to send in a blob to take the expected special hit, easily prompting a switch. WRONG! Switcheroo your scarf and gain either a Leftovers or Eviolite. That blob (sorry, just like that word) is worthless (except for Wish passing... oh well). People seem to forget about Switcheroo, since VERY few pokemon can use it well, and this guy is one of them

    3) Any Gliscor planning on switching in (though with Excadrill gone, not so much a problem)? HP Ice is an easy OHKO, even to a 252 HP/Sp Def (never ever seen). Or, perhaps one behind Light Screen? 69% chance to KO. Does more than 50% to most latios (this is at +1 mind you), and with choice Scarf easily outspeeds for the 2HKO. heck, most dragons are 2HKOed by this (at +1)

    4) Volt Switch/T-bolt/Thunder depends on what you want really - momentum, reliable power or crazy risk boosted power. Serves to threaten the infamous water half of Ferro-cent, prompting those aforementioned switches

    Look, this guy requires quite a lot of prediction to be used properly, and is quite frail, but works pretty amazingly. A Glass cannon meant to hit hard at a select few of the metagame that are generally present in stall situations. Should be partnered with a Flying type/Levitator to take the predicted ground attacks, and do NOT get hit by priority. But in terms of this thread, I reckon he's viable.

    PS: Or she - whichever gender you prefer, doesn't make much of a difference other than personal preference - anything even unboosted by rivalry will KO manectric lol
  10. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    YEAH!

    it's very tough for stall teams to avoid losing at least one poke to +2 Rock Gem Terrakion unless they use Quagsire or do something outlandish like send out their Gliscor and then jump to [Rock resist] to absorb the Stone Edge (but nobody will do that ever).

    Swords Dance / Earthquake / Taunt / Facade Gliscor @ Toxic Orb has won me so many games that i should have lost against stall teams, it isn't even funny.

    Last Poke SubDD Dragonite is very dangerous for stall teams that lack a concrete victory condition (namely Perish Song).

    the best thing about those sets though is that they're so handy against other team types so i don't feel as though i'm overspecialising to beat stall.

    Trust me, after all the 'stall is dead!' talk at the start of BW, i'd bet a lot of people are pretty happy to see stall thriving again!
  11. windwolf777

    windwolf777

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    Actually, I like to run a lefties DD set with shed skin. It may sound odd, but trust me, it works. My whole moveset is DD IP DP and Crunch. Totally unresisted neutral, hits many things deceivingly hard with a few DD, and honestly, if you want a strong BU user, just use roobushin because higher attack and I think better defenses make him the better BU'er. However, using him as a DD, you're using what makes him unique.
  12. Kefka Palazzo™

    Kefka Palazzo™

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    Lefties DD with Shed Skin? Ehhh, I don't buy it.
    Scrafty really needs that Moxie boost IMO because he's not as bulky as people make him out to be especially when he needs to run a lot of speed to out-pace Band Terrakion at +1 so he doesn't get OHKO'd by a Close Combat(and you still fear scarf sets). If he can't OHKO something, he's going to take some damage/get status'd(and relying on SS is NOT good...at least for me) which makes it harder to sweep.

    Btw, how can BU Heracross do against stall? It can easily set up on any Gliscor(if it lacks Taunt) and proceed to sweep and I don't think anyone wants to poison/burn him due to Guts.
  13. Chris P. Bacon

    Chris P. Bacon

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    Why not Swords Dance? It's not like many stall teams run super hard hitters like CB Scizor, and Hera's Def. isn't so bad considering Gliscor probably won't be Ev'd in attack.
  14. VN.

    VN. im african and you know i got hyenus
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    Yeah, that set is amazing, a lot of people have also switched in their Skarmory on Gliscor and have gotten trainwrecked by Taunt.

    Either way, Stall this gen isn't easy to play, mainly for the reasons that Scarfwynaut stated, but it is definitely possible to at least pressure these threats [and forcing them out] with smart and conservative play, so that spikes wear them down, or just PP Stall them with Quag or something [although Quag is crit bait].

    As for Stall teams this gen, it seems like CB Tar, Latias, Blissey, Forretress, Gliscor [although Gliscor may be passed over for other walls since Exca is gone] and then either Quag, Jellicent or Gyara is the best way to go, unless you want to run something specialized like an Anti-Weather FWG core like Tabloo has, or Rain Stall like IR.

    Scarftar is also nice, albeit inferior to CB Tar, as Volt Switch can be used to hurt Jellicent/Starmie that switch into Forry and TTar kills them with Crunch.

    Heatran is also looking like a nice option, especially with Sabeleye and Stallbreak Mew on the rise, albeit you have to play extremely conservative with it because Dugtrio is now on every offensive weather team.
  15. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    It might not be wise to Toxic it at first, but eventually, it will fall, especially with a Sandstorm and Subtect Gliscor.
    Anyway, Magnezone and Haxorus makes stall's life miserable, with Magnezone trapping the Steels and Haxorus just raping face after.
    A Female Shed Shell Skarm might be annoying as hell for them, though. Rivalry making Haxorus weaker and Magnezone not being able to trap anymore. Still pretty solid, though.
  16. Kefka Palazzo™

    Kefka Palazzo™

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    Because Bu Heracross isn't JUST for stall teams ;)


    It's EV'd to out-speed any bulkyScor, but you do have a point with the poison. Btw, I run it with Lefties so SS isn't TOO bad.
  17. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    With Toxic it is.
    And what can you do if you outspeed it?
    It subs up, uses Toxic and then proceeds to stall you out.
    But in order to back up that point, I need to run some calcs.
    Could I get some EV's and a Nature?
  18. Kefka Palazzo™

    Kefka Palazzo™

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    Why would I let it sub? x_x
    +Skarm kinda walls Subtect Scor.


    Set is in the Heracross analysis.
  19. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    Quagsire destroys the weaker set up sweepers like Gyara / Scrafty / Jirachi / Latias / ect. However I usually lure it in with lum DD nite or hax, and 2HKO with outrage while they waste time trying to status my lum. The dragons in general destroy stall with either their mix sets or setup sets with lum.
  20. jessifer

    jessifer

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    What about weather based stall teams? Sand-stall, rain-stall, etc.
  21. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    We're talking about Subtect Gliscor vs Bulk Up Heracross. Skarm may wall it, but Skarm isn't in this fight.
    Anywho, calcs:
    +0 Stone Edge vs Subtect Gliscor: 17.5-20.9%
    +0 Stone Edge with Guts vs Subtect Gliscor: 26.2-31%
    +1 Stone Edge with Guts vs Subtect Gliscor: 39.2-46.3%

    Assuming both come in at the same time, Heracross won't get the Guts boost on the first turn as it outspeeds. If Toxic is used on the turn Heracross Bulks Up (probably the first turn), Hera might break through. However, if Substitute is chosen instead, you'll do nothing to it as it is behind a sub as it Toxic's then. After that, Gliscor will just Protect, Sub up, Protect etc.
    In four turns, in a Sandstorm, Hera will have lost 10/16 of its health.
    Then, only if Hera uses BU on the turns Gliscor Protects, it has another shot, but in all other cases? Hera loses.
  22. Razza

    Razza

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    Keeping hazards up is a good way to beat stall, now that excadrill is gone most non rain stall teams use Forretress as a spinner, but with smart play and maybe a spinblocker you can prevent him getting off a spin and cripple the team.
    Unexpected things are also very good, a surprise ko will tear apart a stall teams core.
    Stall teams also tend to be quite predictable with their switches and therefore by maintaining offensive pressure you can break stalk especially with a u-turn team which they find very annoying.
  23. Kefka Palazzo™

    Kefka Palazzo™

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    Why would I leave Heracross in against Gliscor without a BU? x_x
    The point is that Heracross will set up on some Gliscors that come in to counter it, not that Heracross is going to switch in 1v1 and expect to win.
  24. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    If Gliscor has to come in on the same turn as Heracross it's certainly not countering it.
    I mean, Gliscor already loses to Conkeldurr; let's be honest a lot of Bulk Up users beat it.
    Gallade, Scrafty, Heracross...
  25. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Nasty Plot Mew is one of the greatest stall breakers out there. Its literally only checked by 1 Pokemon (quagsire) everything else falls to its awesome coverage and power. Synchronize fucks up stall mons that try to stop it too. (so if blissey or w/e twaves you can at least 2HKO them most of the time because they end up being slowed down too)
    I was considering running Lum Berry on Mew to hard counter stall teams, but I love Leftovers healing factor.

    SD Haxorus is a good one. Don't bothering running Taunt unless you're DEAD SET on Haxorus being used 100% for stall breaking. SD / Outrage / EQ / Brick Break with a draco plate gives most stall teams headaches. +2 Outrage w/ Draco puts a ton of pressure on Skarmory so it can pretty much only Roost, or risk being put into to KO range for pretty much anything else on your team.

    Mixmence gets an obvious mention, its still impossible to counter and Roost offsets LO's recoil. Its great against those jellicent / ferrothorn cores if you can predict. DD lum Dnite is pretty sweet, since nothing on stall can "straight up" counter it. Just make sure rocks are off the field + Skarm / quagsire is weakened before attempting to sweep. Mamoswine, is another good one. If it flinches Skarmory, its game over since the rest of the team is taking a shitton of damage. The fact that more and more Skarm's run Shed Shell helps too.

    CB Terrakion 2HKOes everything on a stall team. Just spam those ridiculously powerful STAB moves and watch things die. Watch out for misses...
    Breloom still tools over stall teams so make sure you use him too!

    There's a couple other stallbreaker, but those are the ones that come to mind.

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