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Stall of the Icy-Earth (sand-hail stall)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Mdevil, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    This team started as a dare...
    Have no pics so its all linked sprites...


    But it quickly became one of my most used teams on the PS ladder. Its been performing very well though its primary appeal is its fun value. For actually strategic value, though, its strength is how easily it can handle most any poke due to the fact that the only pokemon who can not be hit by both sand and hail are Magic guard users and Mamoswine and it can easily defeat most other forms of weather. More on that later, for now I shall discuss the team.


    [​IMG]

    Orifice (Hippowdon) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Slack Off

    This guy... In case you can't tell, Hippowdon has two main roles on this team. These are setting up SR and sandstorm. Some other less apparent things he does are, specifically, counter sun and sand teams by himself. This guy switches in on Ninetails and Tyranitar like its his job (because it is.) He doesn't "wall" Ninetails, but he switches in, getting rid of the weather, and can take a flamethrower or two and hit an EQ. Of course, Stone edge exists only to hit those who are immune to EQ


    [​IMG]

    Recon (Abomasnow) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Protect
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute
    - Blizzard

    Recon, named for Battlefield bush-wookies, here for the hail with a sub-seed set. Stalling out Politoeds all day, erry day. This thing has even stalled out Heatran and Volcarona, granted it got up a sub on the switch. This furry monster can decimate teams and force RQs easily and I love it.


    [​IMG]

    The Dark Knight (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang

    Du nun nun nun Du nun nun nun Du nun nun nun Du nun nun nun Du nun, Batman! Annoying, cheesy intros aside, nice and easy set. Toxic for more residual damage, protect to rack up said damage and to heal a bit. EQ is here for the basic damage and Ice fang can hit the flying types immune to EQ. The similarity to Hippowdon is kind of annoying as it means a common weakness between some of the sand abusers but whatever.


    [​IMG]

    You Jelly? (Reuniclus) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Toxic
    - Psyshock
    - Shadow Ball
    - Recover

    The abortion gone wrong... (politically unstable topic, move along.) Ok, Special wall, you know the drill, only strange thing on this set is toxic over calm mind... its a stall team, what explanation do you need? Psyshock for the special walls, Shadow ball for the things that resist Psychic, recover for some Hp recovery, derp-de-der...


    [​IMG]

    Cannabis (Venusaur) (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leech Seed
    - Weather Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    [​IMG]

    Chuck Testa (Amoonguss) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Bold Nature
    - Spore
    - Clear Smog
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    OMG, slot #5 what am i going to do with you...had an Amoongus here (set that's posted next) and now have Venusaur... Neither feels right and i don't know what to put. I'm going to give you guys my thinking with these sets and what parameters I need for this slot and hopefully you will suggest some good pokes. Both these pokes share similar traits, a sleep inducing move to cripple foes I cant normally handle and a fire move to handle the things my other pokes cant handle (specifically ferro, scizor, genesect, and forretress) Amoongus had regenerator to keep itshealth up and Venusaur has leech seed. Each also carrys a gimmick move in clear smog to remove stat boosts on opposing threats and weather ball as it can be rock or ice type with my team.
    and Amoongus, having a leftover move has Giga drain for more Hp recovery... Basically with this slot I need something that can handle the previously mentioned pokes, so a fire move at least, and preferred but optional can cripple pokes that are threats that my team can't handle. Thx.


    [​IMG]

    Snuffaluffagus (Mamoswine) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Thick fat
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake

    Back on the street, Sesame Street. Mamoswine, the only poke that can, without abilitys, be immune to both hail and sand. Obvious pick for the team. This physically defensive set also boasts my teams only priority attack. Another toxic and protect for recovery and residual damage. Ice shard and EQ for the coverage we all know and love explained for the third time on this thread... yeah... weak to ice so not a great wall but it gets the job done...

    Threats iIn general:
    -Does poorly against other hail teams due to...
    -ice weakness, and quite a large one
    -No to very weak fire attacks so little coverage of bug types
    -Need a better #5 slot...
    -Reuniclus is a threat to this team,as is Alakazam... Magic guard...

    Finally:
    Thanks for reading this whole post, This is only my second RMT post. (I'm well aware stall doesn't fit in the meta, don't need you to tell me.) Also, as I am quite new to posting it would be much appreciated if you would give advice on my posting style. Look me up on PS if you want to see this team in action or if you want to see my team making style... I think that's it... Thx

    Thx to MysticNova and Gengan for format help.
    Team has been altered due to suggestions but the original team will stay on this RMT in order to see further suggestions, in a week or so after messing with it the current model will be posted a s a seperate thread. Thx to helpful suggestions ;D
  2. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude based wooper #dealwithit
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,195
    Hey man props for giving duel weather a try!

    Firstly when i look at your team i understand it is stall but throwing Toxic and random pokemon to go with the "Stall" nature of the team isn't always a good idea. Another thing worth noting about stall teams is not all pokemon need to use fully defensive spreads and support moves. Because this often opens up the team to prankster pokemon like Sableye and also opens up the team to more wallbreaking pokemon like Choice Band Terrakion and Choice Band Dragonite. Now with this team having alot of Ice-Type coverage mixed Salamence and Choice Band Dragonite may not be able to switch in alot, But when they do they will cause damage. However Tornadus-T can outright wreck this team with it's Life Orb set being able to dish out huge damage with Hurricane/U-Turn/Focus Blast/and Grass Knot or Heat Wave. Another reason why it is such a big threat is because it outspeeds all members of your team. "But what about Mamoswines Ice Shard?" You might ask well with that defensive spread you won't be doing enough unfortunatly that is why i suggest a Life Orb Mamoswine>Defensive MamoswineWith an Adamant Nature Mamoswine is able to Ko the therians with Ice Shard after Stealth Rock damage which is great for this team due to it's large weakness to Tornadus-T. This set also checks dragon-types alot better due to it's more damaging Ice Shard.

    You also mentioned you didn't know what to put in the 5th slot in your team. You also mentioned that your team has a big weakness to apoosing hail and your team lacks enough Fire-Type coverage. To solve this i think the 5th slot should go to Slowbro Slowbro with Regenerator is a great physical wall and also works good in weather due to it's ability to gain it's Hp back with ease. Due to the Ice-Type coverage of this team Flamethrower can be used over Ice Beam for the ability to hit Abomasnow and Scizor Switch ins hard. As you mentioned earlier you really don't think Venasaur or Amoongus can fit in this team very well so Slowbro is quite a good option. He can also spread burn around with Scald.

    Sets
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Slowbro @ Leftovers| Regenerator
    Bold | 252 Hp / 4 SpA / 252 Def
    Scald | Flamethrower| Psychic | Slack Off
    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine @ Life Orb | Thick Fat
    Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Sp Def / 252 Spe
    Ice Shard | Earthqauke | Icicle Spear | Stone Edge/Superpower

    Tl;dr
    Show Hide


    Slowbro--->5th Slot

    Life Orb Mamoswine--->Defensive Mamoswine




    ~Superpowerdude
  3. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    Thank you for your tips, I'll Defoe applying those to my team. I've never really tried stall before so I made this team with no prior knowledge and your advice should help in the future. Thx
  4. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    510
    Hi there,

    Interesting team, dual weather is a pretty neat concept and it is cool to see someone giving it a try. One thing that immediately is the big fire weakness to your team. Venusaur / Amoonguss, Abomasnow and Mamoswine to an extent all suffer from the Fire weakness, while you have no resist. This means that every time your opponent sends in a Victini, Darmanitan or any other prime Sun abuser, something is going to take a hit. Even your physical walls are 2HKO'd with prior damage which is not hard to rack up as you lack a Spinner. I've also noticed the big Ice weakness your team has. Ice Beam Genesect, Hidden Power [Ice] Keldeo and Kyurem are all common threats that look problematic for your team. Genesect has the ability to hit everything on your team Super Effective if it has the correct movepool, while Keldeo has a field day with your team in Amoonguss is weakened. It's dual STAB spells terror for your team, while your only check in Reuniclus fears switching into Keldeo as Keldeo can 2HKO Reuniclus with a Life Orb set. Kyurem on the other hand causes similar problems, benefitting from the Hail Abomasnow brings should Kyurem be carrying Blizzard, and Sub Roost sets completely block status from your other team mates, while also heavily exposing your big Ice weakness. To help with all of these problems, I'd recommend you try out a Shed Shell Heatran over your current Abomasnow. I'm really not seeing what Abomasnow is doing for your team. It compounds your already big Fire weakness, while also being hazards weak and nothing on your team really benefits from Hail. Heatran on the other hand, deals with a lot of the problems your team currently has. Heatran helps greatly with the onslaught of Fire / Ice attacks your team seems to have trouble with, while also providing you with a great answer to Sun Teams. Given that common Sun Teams nowadays carry Dugtrio to deal with Heatran, you can avoid being trapped and killed, and then swept by Chlorophyll abusers that follow. Heatran pretty much does the same role as your Abomasnow, essentially outstalling mons that like to boost such as Volcarona. The difference here is that Heatran betters your synergy greatly, while also being immune to Toxic, not being hazard weak, exposing your Hail weakness, having a better defensive typing, being able to status and phase out mons and having recovery.

    Also looking over your team, I noticed that you have a much more defensively inclined playstyle. As a result, the goal of your team is to win by stacking hazards and being able to wear down the opponent, while being able to wall as much of the metagame as possible. Right now, you seem pretty weak to Dragons, and a defensive Mamoswine does not cover that weakness. If anything, it makes you slightly weaker, as offensive variants can deal with Dragons while any Dragon with Roost can beat your current set. As this does appear to be a stall team, it is also preferred to have a Spinner on your team. Spinners alleviate the pressure upon switching which is great for mons on your team that do not have reliable recovery. To help with Dragons further and cure your hazard weakness, I do think you should try out Forretress over your Mamoswine. Forretress patches up a lot of the current problems you have, most important it provides you with a much needed Spinner. On a defensive team such as this when your goal is to wall as much of the metagame as possible, you do not want to be taking extra unnecessary damage that can put you into 2HKO range. Forretress also provides you with an extra Dragon resist. This is great for switching into Outrages that currently threaten a lot of your team mates while freely being able to stack hazards and Spin. Between Hippowdon / Gliscor / Heatran / Forretress you should have enough insurance against heavy offense or DragMag teams carrying Dragons which is arguably one of the most threatening team archetypes for Stall teams to face.

    I also looked over your Reuniclus set and noticed that it doesn't really cater towards your team very well. With Amoonguss / Venusaur and Heatran, there is really no need to make Reuniclus defensive as well, as the job is done much better by your other team mates. I think you should change Reuniclus's set to an Offensive Trick Room set. A bit of offense is always appreciated on a Stall team to hit stall breakers that get in your way. OTR Reuniclus already has pretty decent bulk with no investment, and with the hazards that the rest of your team provide, you can pretty easily tear through a lot of teams when you have hazards up as very little wants to switch into Reuniclus. This set also twists the momentum heavily in your favour. Even in situations when Reuniclus cannot sweep, you make it easier for slower team mates to switch in to revenge kill, spin, or lay up that additional layer of hazards that limits your opponent's main sweeper's switch ins.

    I also noticed that you were kind of undecided as to whether to choose Amoonguss or Venusaur as your 5th team member, as both of them perform a pretty good defensive role. For this team, I do think that Amoonguss would be much better, because you look very Keldeo weak and Amoonguss solves your Keldeo problem thanks to the better bulk and Regenerator whereas Venusaur cannot beat Keldeo if you have to keep switching in with hazards up. Amoonguss also has access to an 100% accurate Sleep move and Clear Smog, which pretty much blocks all efforts to set up vs Amoonguss. In similar situations, Venusaur can be used as setup fodder for anything with Substitute, as Venusaur poses very little offensive power when running a defensive set and cannot stop opponents boosting as it lacks Clear Smog. If you do choose to run Amoonguss though, I would highly recommend you change your set to 192 HP / 40 Def / 28 SAtk / 248 SDef with a Calm Nature. This set optimizes Amoonguss's bulk being able to deal with Breloom / Keldeo much better while also giving Amoonguss a Regenerator HP number, meaning upon switching out it maximizes Recovery from Regenerator. 28 SAtk EVs help Amoonguss to break +2 Keldeo's Substitute, which can deter it from further setting up and sweeping your team.

    Good luck!

    Sets (open)
    Heatran @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 248 SDef / 12 Spe
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Toxic
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
    - Spikes
    - Gyro Ball
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch

    Reuniclus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spe)
    - Trick Room
    - Psychic / Psyshock
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball
  5. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    Thank you for your suggestions, and for reading my post. All suggestions you have put forward will be thought over and most likely applied. Mamo will definently be altered as I wasn't happy with my set while the suggested one seems much better. Thanks again!
  6. MysticNova

    MysticNova

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    87
  7. Gengan

    Gengan

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    542
    Here's how to do images:

    How to do Images (Remove Spaces) (open)


    [​IMG]

    Example: [​IMG]

    Yes I used Litwick. Fak u

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