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Stallpocalypse

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Antar, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
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    For the longest time, this team was undefeated (on Wi-Fi, but still). Then I took it on the PS ladder, where it quickly rose to the top 10 (I think my rating maxed out at around 1850). But then the suspect tests came, and I found myself losing to team after team. Interestingly, it's not just teams with Cress (or Durant) that give me a hard time, but I feel like the changes to the metagame that the test has led to are partially responsible for this team's fall from grace.

    This team was not actually designed by me. It was originally designed by a buddy of mine on Youtube by the username of JadeHex. After telling him the problems I'd been having, I asked if he had any idea of how to fix it.

    The short answer was no--Spiritomb seems like it would work really well on this team, but making a slot for it is no easy task.

    So I turn to you! Help me save this team! Help me prove that full stall is still viable in this metagame!

    At A Glance...
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]

    Pokemetrics:
    • Bias: -1864 -2100
    • Stalliness: 2.006303 (12.05 T/KO) 2.140651 (13.23 T/KO) This puts it at roughly among the top 1% stalliest of teams, based on October stats.

    In Depth...
    [​IMG]
    Tachikoma @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Leaf Storm
    - Trick

    My usual lead. Few people bother running scarfers that outspeed even a modest Rotom. Usually I end up just Volt Switching out Turn 1 (into Steelix if it's safe), but Will-O is great for Steelix, and Leaf Storm will 2HKO Nidoqueen who thinks it's safe to set up rocks. Trick is one of the most crucial moves on this set and is my only hope of shutting down non-sub setup sweepers.

    [​IMG]
    George III @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Slack Off
    - Fire Blast
    - Scald
    - Thunder Wave

    Part One of My Three-Part Regenerator Core.

    After playing with august's HO RU team, The Running of the Bulls, I considered swapping this guy out for his Specs variant. It didn't take me long to go back. This thing walls pretty much all special attackers. Moltres DREAMS about being able to 2HKO this guy. Nidoqueen's Thunderbolt does 43-53%, meaning this monarch can take a hit and then deal massive damage back with Scald. Thunder Wave is great for predicting switches. Fire Blast is for Ferroseed (assuming FB doesn't miss, switching into Slowking immediately upon Ferroseed appearing on the field can usually limit the spiky ball to a single layer of spikes). Slack Off is the move you hope you don't have to use, since it means that it's time for hard-core stalling. But hey, this *is* a full stall team. You do what you have to.

    [​IMG]
    Tuesday @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Waterfall
    - Poison Jab
    - Aqua Jet Haze

    Qwil hasn't been doing super great in this metagame. It's hard to find time to set up Spikes. Still, Intimidate is nice for forcing switches, and this thing remains my one true 100% counter to Entei. Haze (which *does* hit behind subs, correct?) would be great on this set, but it's illegal with Aqua Jet. Still, though, it might be worth it to invest some speed EVs and lose the Aqua Jet.

    [​IMG]
    Haderach @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 252 SDef (see below)
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Dragon Tail Roar
    - Gyro Ball
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock

    JadeHex originally put Dragon Dance Dragonair in this slot. Yeah, that did NOT work out well. So he replaced his with Golurk, and I replaced mine with Steelix. I think mine ended up working out better. Physical (impenetrable) wall, Stealth Rocker and phazer extraordinaire. Before the surge of Sub Set-Up pokes, Dragon Tail was the superior move, as it bypasses Taunt, but these days, Roar is my only hope of stopping sweeps. Sturdy is a great ability, as it isn't too hard to keep Steelix at 100% (especially with Wishes from Audino), and even a +6 sweeper will get its ass Roared away. A while ago I had Stone Edge on this set over Gyro Ball. Between Stone Miss' shitty accuracy and the fact that most Pokemon hit by Stone Edge are also hit by STAB Gyro Ball, the change was a vast improvement.

    [​IMG]
    Maeby @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Heal Bell

    Part Two of My Three-Part Regenerator Core.

    Back in the early days of this team, this Audino gained a reputation as a murderous bastard. You'd be surprised how often I was able to get "Audino kills" without even trying. Nothing's really simpler than Toxic/Wish/Protect. Nowadays, Audino does her job well as a utility cleric. Wish passing is crucial to my team's success, and Audino does it well. Heal Bell means I don't have to worry *too* much about who I Sleep Fodder to Smeargles and Amoongusses. Also, I can feel free to rack up tons of burned, toxiced and paralyzed pokes. I just need to take a minute at some point to get Audino in there and Heal Belling. Audino sponges most special hits (LO Magmortar's Focus Blast does a measly 82% max, and I've won a few matches simply by switching back and forth between Audino and Slowking.

    [​IMG]
    Magna @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Spore
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Giga Drain
    - Synthesis

    Part Three of My Three-Part Regenerator Core.

    The newest member of my team (before, I had Eviolite Tangela in this slot). Spore is actually far from the most critical move on this set. Amoonguss is the only member of my regenerator core who's designed to take physical hits, though the other two usually can, if they're not super effective. It's my answer to almost all fighting types (so few of whom bother to run Ice Punch). Sludge Bomb is preferred over Clear Smog for the much needed power, and since Clear Smog's hazing effects are blocked by subs. Giga Drain is usually sufficient to regain health (when combined with Regenerator), but Synthesis can complement recovery when needed. Most people will suggest running Leftovers over Black Sludge to avoid issues with Trick. Considering I have Qwilfish on this team as well, it's not really a problem, and I'm usually able to predict Tricks and go into Rotom to take the item.

    Threats:
    • Cresselia. Not much I can do except Toxic stall, and if it gets behind a sub, I can't even do that, aside get Steelix in quickly and Roar it before it has a chance to get off too many Calm Minds. Toxic Stalling works fine on non-sub sets. Sub-CM sets are walled by Slowking: +6 Psyshock does 48% max, if I did my calc correctly, which means it comes down to a PP stall. Steelix can also roar it out if it's at full health or if Cress hasn't gotten off too many CMs. The best bet with Cress is to trick is Rotom-C's scarf, but that requires some excellent prediction.
    • Durant. If anyone ever bothered to run Superpower, which they don't. Until people get wise, Steelix is a hard counter.
    • Sub-Bulk Up Gallade. My number one problem right now. The sad thing is that it needs to get to +5 or +6 to menace Slowking (if it doesn't have Shadow Sneak) or Amoonguss (if it doesn't have Psycho Cut), so if only I had a way of hazing it or forcing it out (besides Steelix who does NOT enjoy getting Drain Punched), I'd be fine.
    • Cosmic Power Sigilyph. Not a problem at all. Steelix and Slowking wall it completely, aside from the burn damage from Psycho Shift (note that Psycho Shift Cosmic Power Sigilyph cannot even 4HKO Slowking with Stored Power and will run out of PP and struggle to death long before Slowking runs out of Slack Offs--you DON'T want to know how I know this). I include this here to counter people who say that anyone who has a problem with Cress will also have a problem with Cosmic Power Sigilyph.
    • Calm Mind Clefable. I got massacred by one of these, no joke. Score was 4-1: the only pokes I'd lost were Rotom-C and Qwilfish. This Clefable had managed to come out before, but I'd easily roared it away with Steelix, who completely walled the set. Finally Clefable's the last Pokemon out... and I can't prevent it from CMing to +6. Once at +6, it managed to 2HKO Steelix with Stored Power. Slowking successfully walled it, in that Stored Power / Hyper Voice did JUST ABOUT 50%, so I *could* have stalled it out with Slack Offs, but the damn thing crits me. The rest of my team was easy pickings.
    • Lilligant. The trick is choosing the right sleep fodder. Amoonguss can't hope to do any considerable amount of damage to it after a few Quiver Dances, but it *can* spore it to sleep. That's the best I've got, and I've either got to phaze with Steelix or hope it stays asleep long enough for Qwil to get off a Poison Jab (or two, depending on LO vs. Leftovers and the amount of entry hazards).
    • Entry Hazards: All four layers of hazards (Toxic Spikes are no problem with two poison types on the team) are needed to nullify the health regained from Regenerator, but with no spinner, it does occasionally happen.
    • Hax. As silly as it is to put down "hax" as a threat, crits, misses and parahax cost me more matches than it should. In the early days, hax would rarely be a big deal, as things would usually balance out / not matter, considering the crazy long nature of battles. But now, I lose more often because Slowking's Fire Blast misses on a predicted Rotom-C switch-in than I do to letting Cress set up. I feel that the hyper-offensive nature of the current metagame is to blame, and I suspect there's not much anyone can do about it.

    Summary
    This team is not bad by any means (I'm currently #24 on the ladder with an ACRE of 1821, Glicko2 of 1890 ± 49), but I feel it can do better. Spiritomb is a hard counter for Gallade (and Cress, if it gets unbanned), and my team would really benefit from having one (barring that, more hazers, preferrably ones not weak to psychic or fighting), but there's no simple replacement I can make: without Rotom, my entire team will be extremely slow (and without a Choice item to trick onto setup threats); without Steelix, I lose Stealth Rock, phazing and the valuable steel typing; without Qwilfish, I have no spikes, and I'm stuck with only Stealth Rock for hazards (not the end of the world--my team doesn't rely overmuch on copious levels of hazards, and Kabutops is everywhere these days); and if you take out a member of my Regenerator core, you lose the key to this team's success.

    So please? Won't you help save RU stall?

    Original Importable (open)

    Tachikoma (Rotom-Mow) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Leaf Storm
    - Trick

    George III (Slowking) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Slack Off
    - Fire Blast
    - Scald
    - Thunder Wave

    Tuesday (Qwilfish) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Waterfall
    - Poison Jab
    - Aqua Jet

    Haderach (Steelix) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Roar
    - Gyro Ball
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock

    Maeby (Audino) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Heal Bell

    Magna (Amoonguss) (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Spore
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Giga Drain
    - Synthesis


    Importable (Current Version) (open)


    Tachikoma (Rotom-Mow) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Leaf Storm
    - Trick

    George III (Slowking) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Slack Off
    - Fire Blast
    - Scald
    - Thunder Wave

    Tuesday (Qwilfish) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Waterfall
    - Poison Jab
    - Haze

    Haderach (Steelix) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 176 HP / 80 Atk / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Roar
    - Gyro Ball
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock

    Maeby (Audino) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Wish
    - Heal Bell

    Magna (Amoonguss) (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Spore
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Giga Drain
    - Synthesis
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Since Antar's a bro, I'll rate your team :)

    Steelix's EV spread can be improved. Does it really need that much attack EVs? I fail to see how such heavy Atk investment is all that useful for Steelix. I suggest changing the EV spread to 176 HP / 80 Atk / 252 SpD. This will allow Steelix to survive Scarf Overheat and Specs Flamethrower from Manectric and Focus Blasts from LO Accelgor and LO Sceptile's Focus Blast much more comfortably. Your current spread only guarantees Steelix survival from Scarf Manectric's Overheat. 80 Atk EVs is enough to OHKO Manectric and Accelgor with Gyro Ball. Sceptile also dies to Gyro Ball after SR + 1 round of LO recoil.

    I also have a better Qwilfish moveset in mind to further this team's stalling mission. Replace Aqua Jet and Poison Jab for Toxic Spikes and Haze. Equipping both Spikes & Toxic Spikes may seem weird at first, but it's ingenious. complete_legitimacy (iirc) had this set in his old RU team, and I was impressed when I tried it out in a tournament. Spikes & Toxic Spikes are like Double Dance, you use it for different purposes. Spikes is for more fast-paced games, whereas Toxic Spikes helps you fare better against bulkier teams that doesn't wear down as easily. Of course you can set both hazards at the same time! 1 layer of Spikes + 1 layer of TSpikes = 3 layers of Spikes (12.5% damage upon entry + 12.5% from regular poison). It's a great way to quickly sap away opponent's teams and burn the team to the ground. Set-up sweepers like BU Gallade, QD Lilligant, and SD Feraligatr certainly wont enjoy TSpikes! Haze will provide you a more reliable way to check set-up sweepers than Rotom-C's Trick.

    Finally, that Audino needs to go. I am aware of Audino's impressive bulk (better than the more popular Clefable), but its movepool is terrible offering it no offensive pressure and inviting opponent to set up freely on it (ie SD Drapion). I suggest replacing Audino with Clefable. What Clefable has is Seismic Toss for steady damage with decent offenses if it ever wants add variation in its offenses. You lose Regenerator, but Magic Guard is just as awesome, and can be helpful in absorbing status. It can still perform the clerical role well. Whatever set you choose, I suggest giving Encore on Clefable. It thwarts any attempts at setting up on Clefable, forces bunch of switches (hazard damage++), and provides free turns for your team. A very underrated utility move indeed. Here's the general gist of the set:

    [​IMG]Clefable @ Leftovers | Magic Guard
    Calm | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD | IVs: 0 Atk
    ~ Seismic Toss
    ~ Wish
    ~ Encore
    ~ Heal Bell*


    * Heal Bell can be replaced for Protect or Seismic Toss for more reliable recovery, but I personally doubt you need it. Another option over Heal Bell would be Stealth Rock, which frees a move on Steelix's movepool for something like Toxic to poison Rotom-C, Rotom, Cresselia, Moltres, and Uxie. The final slot can be used for elemental moves like Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, etc to remove particular threats.

    If you think Heal Bell's utility > Wish's utility, then you can easily replace Wish with Softboiled.

    I hope this rate was helpful. Best of success your stall endeavors ;)
  3. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
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    Thanks, Pocket! I appreciate the rate.

    I'll definitely change Steelix's EV spread (no idea why I'm still using that one--Steelix is will-o-wisp bait more often than it's not) and try Toxic Spikes and Haze instead of AJ and Poison Jab. I'd already started trying Haze instead of AJ, and with the set-recommended speed EVs to outspeed 44-EV Gallade and base-55 pokes like Bouffalant), but losing Poison Jab makes me nervous: it's true that I can't remember the last time I used it in a battle, but I feel that it's important to hit grass-types (like Sceptile) who come in on switches. Still, I'll try it out.

    Clefable over Audino? No sale. Audino is easily the most reliable member of my team. With hazards up, Magic Guard *does* work out to be a better ability than Regenerator--loss of recovery is counterbalanced by lack of hazard damage and lack of toxic/burn damage--and Clefable's Wishes are nearly as large, but if I were to run Clefable, it would be Wish/Protect/Heal Bell/Toxic. In my experience (on the other side), Seismic Toss is easy to stall out if your opponent has a recovery move. Toxic stalling is far more reliable.

    Now, I may reevaluate after trying out Toxic Spikes on Qwil, but poison-types and spinners are everywhere in RU, so the odds of being able to keep toxic spikes on the ground seems low.

    Thanks again for the rate!
  4. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    yeah poison jab on qwil is kind of important for physical sceptiles, especially if you make the change i suggest.

    couldn't you just replace amoongus with spritomb? They both cover the fighters well, and yeah switching into grass types is going to be more annoying but covering gallade/cress/sigi and spinblocking is very cool. If you do this you might want to give rotom hidden power fire > wisp, helps you revenge the grass types that you're now a little more vulnerable to while still hurting steelix and OHKOing durant. Wisp is still fine though and doesn't have to be replaced, just food for thought.

    you might've already though of this and dismissed it since you thought about spiritomb yourself earlier but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
  5. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Official Data Miner

    Joined:
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    It's not a bad idea, but it means I lose a member of my regenerator core and replace it with someone without reliable recover (hard to stall with Pain Split).

    In addition, Amoonguss is my best answer to Feraligatr and Crawdaunt, the latter of which is especially menacing to Spiritomb.

    Thanks for the ideas, though!
  6. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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    Updated with a few additional threats.

    The bottom line is that team does exceptionally well against stall, semi-stall, balance and offense, but that it's Hyper Offense with all the setup sweepers that give me a tough time.

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