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Stargazers

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by puregenius, Dec 22, 2012.

  1. puregenius

    puregenius

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    Stargazers

    [​IMG]


    Introduction~

    There's something fundamentally wrong with this team that I can't seem to pick, hopefully you guys can. Normally I'd scrap a team like this, but this is one of the few teams I've put thought into :S.

    Team Building~

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Stalltwo seemed great on paper, so I wanted to build a team around him.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Heatran synergised well with Mewtwo, resisting Dark, Bug and Ghost, while also being an annoying bastard in general. Mewtwo also resisted Fighting moves for Heatran.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Kyogre seemed to destroy my team so Palkia was an obvious choice.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    I then wanted an EK Arceus counter and Scarf Terrakion doesn't really suit my tastes, so I opted for Scarf Dialga.
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    I wanted something bulky to take hits in general. Arceus-Ground seemed to fit well enough.
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    Finally, I wanted a Ground and Fighting immunity, so I chose Giratina-O
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    My team was weak to Choice Specs Kyogre so I switched Palkia to Gastrodon. As I had a Ground type, I switched Groundceus to Grasseus
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    Toxic Spikes completely destroyed my team so I switched Mewtwo for Xatu.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Playing any Ho-oh with Earthquake was an instant lose, so I switched Grasseus for Rockeus.


    At a Glance~

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    In Depth~

    [​IMG]
    Newton (Mewtwo) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Psystrike
    - Recover

    Checks half the metagame and dies to the other half. Stalltwo can be lethal when utilised correctly. Most matches against stall teams are instant wins because of this guy. Will-O-Wisp cripples most physical Pokemon and some support Pokemon, most importantly Ferrothorn who otherwise can do a sizeable chunk with Gyro Ball. Taunt is extremely important against set up and stall Pokemon alike. EK Arceus and DD Rayquaza are the most problematic. W-o-W stops Life Orb variants, but Lum Berry variants get a free turn of set up. Taunt stops the duo setting up, but a combination of their STAB and secondary moves will KO Mewtwo who cannot out speed due to the priority of ExtremeSpeed. Psystrike is nice for dealing consistant damage to the opponent once they have been burned and taunted or just used to damage foe that are more frail. Recover is perhaps the most useful move on the set and allows Mewtwo to stall for longer periods.

    Possible Changes~

    Unnerve over Pressure allows Mewtwo to ignore Lum Berry EK Arceus.

    [​IMG]
    Halley (Heatran) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar
    - Toxic
    - Lava Plume

    While not as powerful as the comet, Halley packs a nasty typing that allows him to check many Pokemon in the Uber metagame. Heatran forms a defensive core of sorts with Stalltwo. Unless Dialga carries Aura Sphere, it can do very little to Heatran. Genesect is in a similar boat, but is forced to carry Hidden Power Ground. Lava Plume has an excellent 30% burn rate and hits most defensive Pokemon for super effective damage. Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory are all dealt heavy damage if not OHKO'ed and Lugia and Giratina can do very little back unless they pack Earthquake. Halley is the Stealth Rock setter of my team and does a fairly good job, forcing a lot of pokemon out. Roar is good for Substitute users, most importantly Latias and Ho-oh, who can otherwise set up on Heatran. Finally, Toxic is extremely important for Arceus-Ghost who my team otherwise has trouble with. Heatran can tank a +1 Focus Blast and Toxic it. While he has no recovery, his multiple resistances means he does not take too much damage from most hits.

    Possible Changes~

    A faster set with taunt.

    [​IMG]
    Kepler (Palkia) @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Spacial Rend
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Pump
    - Fire Blast

    Palkia serves as the primary Kyogre counter. Unfortunately, Thunder still does quite a bit to Kepler, so I must be wary when switching him in. Luckily, Giratina-O supplements Palkia well and can take the Thunders. Haban Berry is excellent and allows me to tank one Dragon hit while retaliating with my own. Spacial Rend is my STAB move of choice and deals consistant damage. Thunder hits Kyogre hard and can paralyse resistant switch ins. Fire Blast 2HKO's Ferrothorn in rain who would otherwise give this set trouble. Finally, Hydro Pump is there as a secondary STAB and does large amounts amounts of damage in rain. Palkia is the only thing in my team that can beat Kingdra so I must keep him healthy if i spot it on the opposing team.

    Possible Changes~

    Focus Punch to hit Chansey. Gastrodon could be used over Palkia, as it solves the major issue of Swift Swim users, but my team would lose a lot of offensive presence.

    [​IMG]
    Copernicus (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 68 Def / 64 SDef / 56 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Recover
    - Stone Edge
    - Perish Song
    - Earthquake

    Arceus-Ground is the glue that holds my team together. Copernicus is ground type because it allows me to check Zekrom and is a nice neutral defensive typing. As my team lacks offensive presence, Perish Song is vital to beat last Pokemon sweepers. Earthquake is a nice neutral STAB that does a sizable chunk to most Pokemon, specifically Reshiram, Zekrom and Dialga. Stone Edge has great coverage with Earthquake and does huge damage to Ho-oh. The ev's are enough to out speed base 95 Pokemon, most importantly non-scarf Kyurem-W and Rayquaza, max Hp and the rest split between Atk, Def and SpD (so pretty random).

    Possible Changes~

    A special set with Ice Beam and Judgment instead of Earthquake and Stone Edge and a less random EV spread.

    [​IMG]
    Nostradamus (Dialga) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunder

    When looking for something to revenge kill Arceus, I have always favoured Dialga over Terrakion. Dia just packs a much better typing, has better bulk and better coverage. Draco Meteor is great for a hit and run Pokemon like Dia and does heavy damage to the huge number of dragons in the tier, while Dragon Pulse is the reliable STAB I use to clean the opponents team. Fire Blast is mandatory for Ferrothorn and Forretress, as well as Skarmory in the sun. Thunder is fun to spam with its high paralysis chance and has the same base power as Dragon Pulse. The EVs and nature are standard.

    Possible Changes~

    Something to kill Ho-oh or Chansey.

    [​IMG]
    Galilei (Giratina-O) @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roar

    Giratina-O is the final member of my team and provides the important Fighting immunity. Dual phaze is great, especially against smash pass. Rest and Sleep Talk keep Giratina-O healthy throughout the match and allows him to be a status absorber. While I don't have Spikes to capitalise on his phasing ability, Stealth Rocks and Dragon Tail is more than enough to stack up damage against the opposing team. Giratina-O is vital for taking on threats like Kabutops, Excadril and Terrakion.

    Possible Changes~

    A specially defensive EV spread could be used so Gira-O serves as a better secondary Kyogre check, but this would leave me a lot weaker to Kabutops etc.

    Threats~

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Swift Swim users give me a lot of problems as I cannot change weather. Kingdra hits 4/6 of my team super effectively with its STABs and can heavily dent the remaining two. Kabutops is another problem, but this has mostly been resolved with the change of Spdef Gira-O to Def Gira-O.

    [​IMG]
    Latios can be a big problem when played correctly. The most I can do is double switch to Heatran to take Draco Meteors or revenge kill it with Dialga if it has taken some prior damage.

    Hazards can be very annoying if they start stacking up, however I can mostly prevent this. Hazards can't be set up on Mewtwo. Common Spikes users (Forretress, Skarmory and Ferrothorn) lose to Heatran. Dialga and Palkia can deal heavy damage with Fire Blast. The Spikes users all have a field day against Ground Arceus. Giratina-O can phase them away if he is asleep.

    Importable~
    Show Hide
    Newton (Mewtwo) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Psystrike
    - Recover

    Halley (Heatran) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar
    - Toxic
    - Lava Plume

    Kepler (Palkia) @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Spacial Rend
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Pump
    - Fire Blast

    Copernicus (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 68 Def / 64 SDef / 56 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Recover
    - Stone Edge
    - Perish Song
    - Earthquake

    Nostradamus (Dialga) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunder

    Galilei (Giratina-O) @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roar


    A Final Look~
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    440
    Excadrill can sweep this team if it flinches Giratina-Origin with +2 Iron Head. To prevent this, use this EV spread on Arceus: 252 HP / 64 Def / 24 SDef / 168 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk). This allows Arceus to take +2 Earthquake from Excadrill after Stealth Rock. You may ask why Excadrill would not attempt to flinch Arceus. Excadrill would normally expect +2 Earthquake to KO Arceus so it would not attempt to flinch it.

    Your team can not prevent Deoxys-S from setting up two layers of hazards. To mitigate this problem, you can use this Giratina-Origin set:

    [​IMG]
    Giratina-Superior (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 176 Atk / 248 Def / 84 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Tail
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Sneak

    This can be used as a one-time check to Arceus. This also beats Tentacruel which Heatran has problems with. Giratina-Origin should not be played like its inferior forme.
  3. puregenius

    puregenius

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    interesting ill definitely try that thanks
  4. dice

    dice follow @smogmogu for hot content
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

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    2,110
    Hey, puregenius!

    Really cool team, I like the ingenuity in being weatherless and using my favorite Mewtwo set! There are a few problems I would like to help mitigate. This team is obviously solid, so I won't have many suggestions, just trying to address a few problems. First and foremost, Latios with Surf and 3 Attacks Latias looks pretty threatening (the version in Rain with Surf and Thunder). Heatran falls and Dialga can't revenge kill it; additionally, Palkia is slower than Lati@s, and it doesn't have a move to kill it. With this in mind, definitely try out Outrage on Palkia. Outrage makes you one of the best Lati@s lures in the game, so definitely try it out instead of Thunder and adjust your nature to Hasty. Opposing MewTwo seem threatening as well, especially varients with Calm Mind or Substitute, and you said Excadrill causes problems as well, so I recommend Max Atk / Def Giratina-O set similar to the one posted above me. It gives you a Spinblocker that isn't complete Spikes bait, and it acts as a secondary Lati@s check and Mewtwo check with Shadow Sneak and it can beat Excadrill with either Earthquke or Will-o-Wisp. The EV's are just trickroom's with enough speed to outspeed 4 Spe Tentacruel. You need maximum Defense to check ExtremeKiller Arceus, Kabutops, etc. Here's the set, good luck!


    [​IMG]
    Giratina-O @ Griseous Plate | Levitate
    Adamant | 216 Atk / 204 Def / 88 Spe
    Outrage | Dragon Tail | Will-o-Wisp / Earthquake | Shadow Sneak
  5. puregenius

    puregenius

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    thanks i completely forgot about latios!
    im considering switching dialga to gene to take that better
    ill try out outrage, but i do like thunder's ability to 2hko kyogre without locking myself in

    ive just realised with a different gira o set, i no longer have a status absorber :S
    i might test magic coat over outrage on gira o, which would also allow me to prevent hazards to a greater extent
  6. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    528
    Weatherless is difficult to pull off in ubers, and unfortunately while this is definitely a strong weatherless team, there are some glaring threats to it.

    Nearly any non-choiced dragon paired with defensive support plays hell with your team. For example, non-choiced Palkia can come in on Mewtwo, Heatran, Arceus-Ground, and Giratina-O (after a pokemon was KOd the turn before or simply with prediction) and then fire off a free attack. If you predict wrong, Palkia will be taking a Spacial Rend or one of your other pokemon will be taking a rain boosted water move. While you also have scarf Dialga, since it obviously has no recovery and cannot take repeated hits from Palkia it can easily be played around. The opponent can simply send in Palkia on one of those four pokemon, attack, then switch out to a wall when you bring in Dialga or Palkia, resulting in Palkia's and Dialga's health being whittled down fast or slowly depending on the plays.

    Additionally, Flame Charge Reshiram can 6-0 your team if it sets up in sun. It won't have many opportunities to set up, but it can set up on choice locked Dialga, or Mewtwo in the majority of encounters. Even if it decides not to set up, it can still cause damage by launching off sun boosted Blue Flares and powerful Dragon Pulses.

    As Dice noted, you also have a moderate Mewtwo weakness. While Mewtwo's usage has dropped you still need to make sure you have it sufficiently checked. Scarf Dialga is not enough to handle it, since unchecked, Mewtwo can sweep the other 5 pokemon on your team and finds ample opportunity to switch in. I suggest taking Dice's Giratina-O suggestion to fix this problem.

    To conclude: I think the best way for you to make your team all around better is to replace Psystrike on Mewtwo with Light Screen. In this case, you double your special defenses and can simply Will-o-wisp/Taunt stall out special attackers. You have Heatran, so things like Sub Ho-Oh and Sub Latias would not become problems, and Mewtwo will steal beat things like CM Arceus-Fight, albeit, there is a higher risk of crit but the change is still worth it.
  7. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    This is actually a really nice weatherless team (how many of those do you even get around here X_X), but I can see some problems with it.

    You noted something earlier about a weakness to Swift Swimmers, its not so much a weakness to them its a weakness to offensive rain itself. Simply put, any Dragon with a Water-type move can be trouble since it forces most of the team to suddenly play conservatively. Kingdra and the Lati twins strike out just because they outspeed Palkia, but a well played Palkia could do the same. Kyurem-W and Reshiram also do a similar job for sun teams thanks to Turboblaze crashing through your primary check to dragons on sun, Heatran (Dialga will remain checked). There's a slight weakness to Toxic Spikes, if two, or even one layer gets up, Mewtwo has been rendered useless, and Palkia's and Ground Arceus's longevity goes downhill. Lastly, enemy Mewtwo can be deadly should they manage to setup.

    To start off lets fix that debilitating Toxic Spike weakness, using a support Poison Arceus over Support Ground Arceus should fix that, all Zekrom will still be unable to break past Support Poison Arceus, and Poison Arceus can just WoW Zekrom that stay in on it. You'll notice that all of the specially offensive Dragon issues though can be fixed by adding a Chansey (Psyshock Lati@s get walled by Heatran). I urge you to use Chansey over Dialga as your primary counter to these things. Now to alleivate the fact you lost your revenge killer, we turn Palkia from a Haban Berry variant into a Choice Scarf variant, so that you can still revenge kill weakened stuff. Switching Giratina-O to the variant that Anikrahman and Princess Bri suggested easily solves the Mewtwo problem. The fact Poison Arceus can check Extremekiller helps out Giratina-O account for its loss of Recovery. That and you can pass Wishes with Chansey too!

    If you dislike this idea of using a Poison Arceus. Swapping out Arceus Poison with bulky Excadrill is a fine idea, it too can check Zekrom and provide Rapid Spin support, but it won't be able to be nearly as tanky as Arceus Ground once was. That and Rapid Spinning is nowhere near as reliable to getting rid of Toxic Spikes.

    Sets:
    Show Hide

    Arceus (Arceus-Poison) @ Toxic Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flamethrower
    - Perish Song / Roar / Ice Beam (only use the last two if you decided to use Snatch Chansey)

    Show Hide

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic
    - Softboiled
    - Wish
    - Seismic Toss / Heal Bell / Snatch (Seismic Toss and Toxic give the best chance against Lati@s but the other moves have utility should you wish to use them)

    Show Hide

    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) or Hasty Nature (+Spd, - Def)
    - Spacial Rend / Draco Meteor (also eases killing Lati twins but makes you setup for ekiller)
    - Thunder
    - Outrage (helps you easily kill Lati twins) / Hydro Pump / Surf
    - Fire Blast

    Regardless of whether or not you take these changes, Good luck with your team :P! That and one question:
    Whose Dice?
  8. puregenius

    puregenius

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    thanks ill definitely try all those suggestions as i have noticed my tspikes weakness
    my team also auto loses to specs kyogre :s

    btw if u check teambuilding, my current team im testing is there
    it seems to be much more consistant
    ill change the rmt when ive finalised the decisions
  9. ChadMurrow

    ChadMurrow

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    I would suggest changing Psystrike on mewtwo with light-screen, as u SHOULDNT use stalltwo as an offensively-based poke, but a defensively, u can light-screen predicted switches and gives u the power to take on specs kyogre with it's 100% water spout and even stall it out with will-o-wisp. This way Stalltwo truely becomes, the one and only, Stalltwo². Nice team overall, i love people who love mewtwo the way i do. <3
  10. FreeButter

    FreeButter

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    Messages:
    76
    Speedy weather abusers will give this team a tough time, such as Excadrill. A Rayquaza is an excellent addition to the team, it can counter the Swift Swimmers and Sand Rushers with the ability Air Lock. However, deciding which one has to go is hard to choose. This Rayquaza set will help greatly:

    Rayquaza @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Air Lock
    Ev's 252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 SpA
    Lonely Nature
    -Dragon Claw
    -Dragon Dance
    -Earthquake
    -Fire Blast

    If you got locked into Outrage, Ferrothorn would stop you cold. Dragon Claw is a safer option if they switched into Ferro. Fire Blast if to take it down on predicted or after Dragon Claw use. Also Fire Blast will hit Air Balloon Exca if your opponent has it. Not having Extreme Speed on this set won't hurt, since you have a Choice Scarf Dialga.
  11. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    the biggest problem with this team is its lack of weather control, followed closely by a massive hazard weakness. donkey also correctly identified lustrous palkia as a huge threat. surf latias in the rain is also very threatening, as palkia cannot check it with spacial rend. your only check to cm ghost arc being heatran is also very worrying.

    i feel a grass arceus would fit better than a ground one, it can similarly check zekrom, provide a more stable check to kyogre, check three attacks latias (the most common variant with surf), and check kabutops and kingdra (watch out for specs ice beam xd). a specially defensive toxic forretress is worth considering over heatran, as it is a better check to ghost arc (except flamethrower ones, which are quite rare), provides a secondary hazard in spikes, which synergizes very well with stalltwo, and most importantly provides crucial rapid spin support. stealth rock can be moved to grass arc, as phys.def gira-o can check ho-oh fine. unfortunately you're still really weak to reshiram xd.

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