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Starmie (BW2 Revamp) [QC: 2/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Dark Fallen Angel, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    As with many other analysis that I took over, remember that I can't edit the OP's post, so I have to create another thread.

    As of now Jirachi's skeleton seems to be good, but I made some little changes.

    [​IMG]

    [Overview]

    <p>Starime is the fastest spinner and the only one that can go on the offensive route. It is also one of the few spinners that can actually beat spinblockers by itself, making the use of Rapid Spin very easy, and lessening the need to use a Pursuit partner. Unlike other spinners, Starmie isn't limited to spinning; it is a great check to top threats like Gengar, Landorus, Tornadus, and Keldeo. Starmie's movepool is fantastic, containing options like Psyshock and the infamous BoltBeam combo. Although it is a spinner, Starmie also has access to Recover and Natural Cure, making it one of the most resilient spinners; despite its defenses being not very impressive, it can run a defensive set because of this.</p>

    <p>With those things in mind, is important to learn of Starmie's flaws. Water/Psychic typing is good offensively, but it comes at the price of a weakness to Pursuit. Also, Starmie's defenses are not impressive, which means that Starmie must be careful to not take too many hits, even resisted ones. However, the worst of all is Ferrothorn, the bane of all Starmie, which can easily beat it while laughing at Starmie's futile attempts to damage it. However, with many teams in need of Rapid Spin support, you can trust on Starmie to do the job. No other Pokémon can spin hazards and pose an offensive threat at same time like Starmie do.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Rapid Spinner
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
    move 4: Ice Beam / Recover
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>As said above, Starmie is the only Pokémon that can use Rapid Spin and pose an offensive threat at same time, and in fact, this set is very fast, powerful, and has excellent coverage. Hydro Pump is one of the best STAB moves to have on the metagame, as it is very powerful and is further boosted by the rain. Starmie has an excellent offensive movepool full of coverage options that complement Hydro Pump; this includes the infamous BoltBeam combo.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin is the crux of this set, and Starmie makes great use of this move, as it can often force switches, giving ample opportunities to spin hazards. Starmie can also beat all spinblockers with the right move, another reason why it makes fantastic use of Rapid Spin. Hydro Pump is the best STAB move to run on this set, and with it, Starmie can consistently beat Gengar, one of the most common spinblockers on the metagame. It always OHKOes if boosted by Life Orb or by rain (be careful as a Leftovers, non-Rain-boosted Hydro Pump fails to OHKO Gengar). You could replace Hydro Pump with Surf for reliability reasons, but Starmie loses out a lot of power. Specifically, Starmie fails to OHKO Gengar even with a Life Orb, and needs Life Orb AND Rain to guarantee the OHKO. The same applies to Scizor, which now will need Stealth Rock support to be OHKOed.</p>

    <p>Psyshock is useful for a lot of reasons: first, it hits Keldeo harder (while bypassing Calm Mind boosts) and hits Terrakion more accurately than Hydro Pump. Second, it hits Tentacruel, Venusaur, Toxicroak, Breloom, Blissey, Amoonguss, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, and specially defensive Jellicent, and finally, Psyshock hits other Poison- and Fighting-types reliably without having to resort to Hydro Pump. Ice Beam is an obvious coverage move to use. It hits Dragon- and Grass-types that resist Hydro Pump, with some common targets being Dragonite, Latios, and Salamence, all which Starmie can outspeed and nail with Ice Beam. Celebi is also an important Ice Beam target, as it can wall Starmie otherwise. Recover can replace Ice Beam if you need Starmie to be able to survive to Rapid Spin more than one time, but do not want to sacrifice power. It should only be used with the combination of Hydro Pump and Psyshock, however, as this combination provides more utility. Hydro Pump + Psyshock + Ice Beam provide the best coverage possible, while Thunderbolt can be used in place of Psyshock to cover bulky Water-types better, especially Gyarados and non-specially defensive variants of Jellicent, all which Starmie struggles with otherwise.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Life Orb is the primary item to make Starmie really difficult to switch into. It also lets Starmie OHKO Gengar with Hydro Pump if the rain is not activated. However, you don't want Starmie to lose health when using Rapid Spin, especially if you plan to use it on a sandstorm or hail team, for example. That's where Leftovers come into the play, making Starmie much more durable, but it loses out some power. Another item worthy of mention is Expert Belt. It boosts Starmie's power without recoil, and still allows Starmie to 2HKO important threats such as Tyranitar, max HP Latias, and non-Specially defensive Jellicent. Although it only boosts on super-effective hits, Starmie has the coverage to make up for that. </p>

    <p>Thunder is an excellent option over Psyshock, but it should only be used with rain support. When combined with Life Orb, however, Starmie can get past any Jellicent variant, unlike what would happen if it used Psyshock (can only get past specially defensive variants) or Thunderbolt (can only get past physically defensive variants). Hidden Power Fire can be used on sun teams; it gets pseudo-STAB and is guaranteed to OHKO Ferrothorn and other threats like Scizor and Forretress.</p>

    <p>The first thing that Starmie will want as a partner, is something that can beat Ferrothorn, as Starmie will never be able to effectively get rid of hazards if Ferrothorn is still alive. A Fighting-type like Breloom or Keldeo is a solid choice; they can not only beat Ferrothorn, but can also beat Chansey, a solid counter to Starmie (Blissey also counters variants without Psyshock). Fighting-types also get rid of SubRoost Kyurem, an excellent check to Starmie. They are also more useful if Starmie is being used on a rain team. Speaking of which, Politoed is a solid partner, as it not only enables Starmie to use Thunder, but it will make Hydro Pump even more powerful. These two factors will make Starmie even more difficult to switch into. Both Heatran and Volcarona are excellent partners to Starmie, as they will OHKO Ferrothorn with its powerful Fire Blasts, with not even rain being able to prevent this. Both also beat some other Grass-types that Starmie has difficulty breaking through, such as specially defensive Celebi. Volcarona is usually the better choice because it works well under rain, being able to use Hurricane, and appreciating the Rapid Spin support that Starmie brings to the table. Generally, depending from whether you choose to use Thunderbolt or Psyshock, a certain variant of Jellicent will wall Starmie; Specially defensive for the former, and the utility counter for the latter. For this reason, a partner with Pursuit is appreciated. Tyranitar and Weavile are thus, solid partners. They can also get rid of Latias and Celebi, which Starmie has difficulty beating. Just be wary of using Tyranitar, that residual damage will add up quickly if you use Life Orb. Weavile appreciates the fact that Starmie is getting rid of Stealth Rock, as Weavile is weak to it. Entry hazard support is suggested to get crucial 2HKOs and OHKOs on bulky Pokémon (such as the 2HKO on specially defensive Jellicent with Psyshock). Ferrothorn can provide Stealth Rock and Spikes support, while the aforementioned Heatran can also setup Stealth Rock.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Rapid Spin
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 224 Spe
    ivs: 0 Atk

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Starmie can forgo its offensive ideals, to become what is peharps the most durable spinner on the metagame. Starmie's defenses, again, are not impressive by any means, but they are enough to survive a couple of resisted hits. What makes Starmie such a great defensive Spinner is its great Speed, Recover, and Natural Cure.</p>

    <p>Scald is the most reliable option for STAB, and offers a chance to burn, which augments Starmie's physical bulk. This is also very useful against Ferrothorn, which oftens expect to tank a hit from the offensive set, only to be burned and have its defensive capatibilities greatly hindered. There are three coverage moves to choose from: Psyshock, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt. Psyshock is the primary option as a secondary STAB move that can hit threats like Calm Mind Keldeo and Terrakion on the sandstorm, both wich take little damage from any other of Starmie's attacks. Psyshock also lets Starmie mantain its ability to defeat one of the most common spinblockers: Gengar (which is OHKOed). Ice Beam covers Dragon-types such as Salamence and Dragonite, as well as Tornadus-I, which Starmie outspeed. It still hits Grass-types such as Breloom, but bulkier ones such as Celebi will not fear even this move, especially considering that Starmie is not investing in its offenses. On the other hand, Thunderbolt hits bulky Water-types, while still hitting Tornadus-I, which Starmie outspeed. With Thunderbolt, Starmie is one of the best counters to Gyarados, as it survives a boosted Bounce and OHKOes back with Thunderbolt. This move can also let Starmie do meaningful damage to Jellicent, With access to Recover, Starmie heals damage taken from entry hazards, and lets it tank some resisted hits like rain-boosted Water attacks.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread maximize Starmie's HP, giving it the bulk needeed to stick around for longer. The Speed investiment is needeed to outspeed everything up to Tornadus, and the reason why max Speed is not being used is because there is nothing notable that Starmie needs to outspeed, other than Gengar and Tornadus. Outspeeding Gengar is crucial to make sure that it is not going to spinblock against Starmie. The rest of EVs go to Defense to give Starmie at least some physical bulk. 0 Attack IVs ensure that Starmie takes the least damage possible from Foul Play, which is useful against Sableye, which may also try to spinblock against Starmie. It is also useful to take less damage from confusion. On rain teams, Starmie can use Thunder and take 124 EVs from HP to Special Attack to 2HKO Jellicent after Stealth Rock damage, which is important because otherwise bulky Starmie struggles to get past it..</p>

    <p>Reflect Type is an option that Starmie can run on the third slot to beat its usual checks and counters; these include Scizor, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Rotom-W. With Reflect Type, Starmie can copy the typing of the first two and shrug off their Pursuits, as well as their other attacks. Reflect Type also lets Starmie actually counter Ferrothorn, by copying its typing and taking little damage from any move that Ferrothorn can use, being immune to Leech Seed, and fishing for a Scald burn. As for Rotom-W, Reflect Type simply allows Starmie to shrug off a Volt Switch. Starmie could drop Recover to run both Psyshock and either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt, since it appreciates the extra coverage, but Starmie loses out an important recovery move, and at this point, you are better off using the standard offensive set. Toxic is an option to allow Starmie to beat any spinblocker other than Gengar, but it can only be used over the coverage move, and only use this move if your team does not have issues with Gengar.</p>

    <p>Due to this set's reduced power, Jellicent is the best counter to it. Starmie cannot hope to break through Jellicent even with Thunder, and Jellicent also spinblocks. Tyranitar is also another big threat, as it takes little damage from even Scald. However, it must be very careful to not be burned by that move. Ferrothorn is less of a threat to this set, but should it avoid a burn from Scald, it threathens Starmie with a powerful Power Whip. For these reasons, a Fighting-type or Grass-type is a useful partner. Fighting-types defeat Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, while a Grass-type like Celebi will take care of Jellicent. Breloom is a Grass-type and a Fighting-type at same time; in fact, it will wreck all the aforementioned threats. Tyranitar, ironically, is a great partner for bulky Starmie, as it is able to checkmate Jellicent with a combination of Crunch and Pursuit (the latter will OHKO specially defensive variants, even if they stay in), while also being able to take out Ferrothorn and opposing Tyranitar with Superpower. Celebi is a counter to defensive Starmie, so something that can take Celebi out, such as Scizor or Heatran, is an appreciated partner.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>One, when seeing this set at first glance, may question why use this over Keldeo, which has the ability to easily defeat Chansey and Blissey, as well as more power, and not being vulnerable to Pursuit. However, Starmie has a lot of advantages. It is still very strong, but has a higher speed that lets it outspeed important targets, like Gengar and Tornadus. Starmie also has much better coverage, and even though it still has difficulty trying to get past Chansey, it has Trick to cripple its usual counters. Also, even though Starmie is vulnerable to Pursuit, neither of the two common Pursuit users, Tyranitar and Scizor, can switch on a Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is the main move of this set. Boosted by Specs, and possibly by rain, it is a difficult move to switch into. Only very bulky Water-type resists can be able to tank this move on rain; even then, Starmie possibly has a coverage move to get rid of them. Surf can replace Hydro Pump, as it is more accurate. However, it lacks the same level of power; while Starmie could potentially hit Water-type resists for solid damage with Water-type moves when using Hydro Pump, this is not possible with Surf. Psyshock allows Starmie to defeat threats that can tank Hydro Pumps, such as Specially defensive Rotom-W and Blissey. It also allows Starmie to hit Fighting-types hard, especially Keldeo. If you cannot afford to miss with Hydro Pump, Psyshock is also a reliable STAB move, but it is not nearly as powerful or spammable. Thunderbolt can replace it, as it hits bulky Water-types much harder. Ice Beam beats Grass- and Dragon-types that would like to switch and tank Hydro Pump, such as Dragonite, Latias, and Celebi. Trick is a important move on this set, as it renders Ferrothorn and Chansey useless, both are otherwise dangerous counters to Starmie.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set has very few alternative options in comparison with other sets. Hidden Power Grass can be used as a coverage move. It still hits bulky Water-types very hard, but not as hard as Thunderbolt. While it has the advantage of hitting Rotom-W and Gastrodon harder, Hidden Power Grass is a fairly weak choice outside those threats. Another option is to use Rapid Spin, as after Starmie tricked away its Choice Specs, Starmie will be even more useful by being capable of providing support. However, it requires to sacrifice a coverage move, as being locked on Rapid Spin is probably one of the worst things that Starmie can do.</p>

    <p>Ferrothorn is even less of a concern to this set, as Starmie can simply use Trick, and render Ferrothorn useless for the rest of match. That said, this is assuming that you predict well, which will not happen all time. For this reason, Fire- or Fighting-types like Heatran or Breloom are good partners. Politoed is an amazing partner, as it boosts Hydro Pump's power even further, allowing Starmie to break through Water-type resists. With the ability to use Thunder, Starmie is also even more of a threat to opposing bulky Water-types.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Trick / Psyshock
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>It may seem like an absurd to slap Choice Scarf on Starmie. After all, it is already very fast, and is rather weak without a boosting item. However, Starmie is the definition of a reliable revenge killer. Its excellent coverage and the ability to outpace some threats, even if they happen to be at +2 Speed (such as Adamant Dragonite, and Timid Venusaur with 180 Speed EVs under sun) are the reason why Starmie makes good use of Choice Scarf. The better coverage and ability to outpace Venusaur under sun is peharps what separate Starmie from Keldeo, which can also pull off a Choice Scarf set, and is more powerful.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is still the best STAB move to run, and thanks to Starmie's boosted speed, it can sometimes even pull off late-game sweeps. Surf can replace it if you absolutely cannot afford a miss, but Hydro Pump's superior power is needeed to revenge kill certain things more reliably, like Volcarona. Ice Beam provides coverage against Dragon-types, and Starmie makes even better use of this move against Dragonite, thanks to its ability to outpace Dragon Dance variants, even if they happen to be at +2, as long as they are using an Adamant nature. Ice Beam also reliably revenge kill threats like Landorus and Gliscor, but be wary of being locked on Ice Beam if your opponent has something like Scizor or Tyranitar, as that can spell doom for Starmie if they have Pursuit. Thunderbolt revenge kill Gyarados, and is Starmie's best move against bulky Water-types, especially opposing Starmie, but be wary of very bulky ones such as Jellicent. Trick is necessary to cripple Blissey and Chansey, as well as Ferrothorn, all which can counter Starmie even better, thanks to its reduced power. Trick can be replaced by Psyshock. Psyshock OHKOes Keldeo and Venusaur, which is useful because Thunderbolt and Ice Beam (respectively) fail to OHKO. In adittion, Psyshock OHKOes Gengar regardless of the circumstances, as Hydro Pump is innacurate and fails to OHKO Gengar without a boost from rain.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Rapid Spin can be used on the third slot if you are using Trick, if you absolutely needs Rapid Spin support, but cannot afford to run a better Rapid Spinner. However, it is probably better to just use the standard Offensive set, as being locked on Rapid Spin is probably one of the worst things that could happen to Starmie.</p>

    <p>Starmie absolutely hates Ferrothorn, which is now a even better counter, thanks to Starmie's reduced power and the fact that it will be locked on a move. However, Ferrothorn will hate having a Choice Scarf tricked on it. That said, Fire-types like Heatran are excellent partners, due to their ability to quickly dispose of Ferrothorn, as well as Scizor, a good check to Starmie. Fighting-types like Breloom can also be considered, as aside from Ferrothorn, they can also take care of Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar, three other threats for Starmie. Politoed is another great partner. The rain it summons further boosts Hydro Pump's power, to compensate the fact that Starmie is not using a boosting item. In addition, Starmie will be able to use Thunder.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>You can opt to replace Rapid Spin with Recover on the main offensive set. Although Starmie loses its niche as a spinner, Starmie becomes a strong, durable sweeper due to its excellent coverage between its STABs and BoltBeam. However, Starmie has few actual opportunities to use Recover, as it is better off attacking and can't take many hits, even resisted ones.</p>

    <p>On every set where Hydro Pump is used, it can be replaced by Surf, which is useful because it is more accurate. That said, be wary of the amout of OHKOs and 2HKOs that you miss by forgoing Hydro Pump, especially considering that Starmie has a rather average Special Attack stat. Scald is only viable on the defensive set, as the chance to burn is not worth the power loss. Psychic is another option that can replace Psyshock everywhere it is listed, but Psyshock hits Terrakion on sandstorm and Calm Mind Keldeo harder, which is why it is more useful. Starmie can run a Dual Screens set, but it is hard to find a reason to use such a set over the standard ones. Hidden Power Fire can be used to defeat Ferrothorn, Starmie's biggest nemesis. It is especially useful on sun teams, where it gains a pseudo-STAB thanks to the sun. With that in mind, be wary that Ferrothorn can only be 2HKOed by Hidden Power Fire, which means that it must be hit on the switch - in addition, Ferrothorn can potentially avoid the 2HKO on rain. Hidden Power Grass or Grass Knot can both be used to deal with Grastrodon. They still hit most bulky Water-types, but are weaker than Thunderbolt and miss out hitting Gyarados and Dragonite. Also, not only Gastrodon can potentially avoid the OHKO from both moves, but a Life Orb-boosted Psyshock is usually sufficient to keep Gastrodon at bay.</p>

    <p>Reflect Type is an interesting option for Starmie, as it can avoid being OHKOed by things like Pursuit, U-Turn, or other moves that Scizor and Tyranitar may use. It is useful because your opponent will hardly expect that move, but Starmie unfortunately has four-moveslot syndrome and as such, has trouble finding a moveslot for such move. Thunder Wave allows Starmie to support its team by crippling faster opponents, but Starmie does not need paralysis support itself, and most things that like to switch on Starmie are slow anyway. Thunder should always be used instead of Thunderbolt if Starmie is being used on a rain team, as it has higher base power and a higher chance to paralyze the opponent. In the same way, Blizzard should be used instead of Ice Beam if Starmie is being used on hail. Starmie can run an offensive support set with Rain Dance and a Damp Rock to aid Politoed on winning weather wars, but this strategy is much more effective if the opposing weather inducer is down. That said, such sort of support is often unecessary. Another move worthy of mention is Gravity. Starmie has access to many powerful but innacurate moves, such as Hydro Pump, Thunder, and Blizzard, and can become a powerful sweeper with a Gravity set.</p>

    <p>Although Starmie is very fast, Analytic activates when the opponent switches, and this allows Starmie to achieve feats like 2HKOing Blissey with rain-boosted Hydro Pump, and doing 50% damage to Ferrothorn. Despite this, Natural Cure is almost always the better option, as it is more consistent and without it, Starmie will be crippled by paralysis and Toxic. Keldeo is a better choice if you want a Water-type that can hit extremely hard on the switch.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Ferrothorn is the bane of Starmie, taking mediocre damage from most of its attacks bar the rare Hidden Power Fire, and even the latter move will do little damage if Ferrothorn is being used on rain. Starmie will never be able to break through Ferrothorn otherwise, and will hardy be able to spin away the hazards that Ferrothorn lays, as it also has Iron Barbs to damage Starmie each time it uses Rapid Spin. Ferrothorn, however, must be wary of Scald, though it is still an annoyance even when burned. It must also avoid being tricked a Choice item. In the same way, most Starmie's sets cannot get past Blissey and Chansey, but the former must be wary of Psyshock, because Blissey can be 2HKOed by Life Orb or Specs Starmie after Stealth Rock damage. Both also hate being tricked a Choice item. Tyranitar can take out Starmie and trap it with Pursuit (which will OHKO even if Starmie stays in), but it must avoid being hit by Hydro Pump whenever possible. Tyranitar also must avoid Scald. Choice Scarf variants can outspeed Starmie, which is useful to hit them before they hit Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, but they cannot guarantee the removal of Starmie because an unboosted Pursuit do not happen to OHKO Starmie even if it decides to stay in.</p>

    <p>Kyurem-B resists Hydro Pump and Thunderbolt, and unlike other Dragon-types, it is neutral to Ice Beam, and will wreck Starmie with Outrage or Fusion Bolt. The regular Kyurem also does the job, and even though it does not have Fusion Bolt, it can simply stall out Starmie with a combination of Roost, Substitute, and Pressure. Even with Ice Beam, Starmie cannot get past specially defensive Celebi, which avoids the 2HKO and wears Starmie down with Giga Drain. Offensive Celebi variants also do the job, but they are 2HKOed by Ice Beam, and may be OHKOed with a bit of residual damage, so they must be wary. Specially defensive Jellicent can shrug off almost everything, even Thunderbolt, and it also happens to block Rapid Spin, so it is the only spinblocker that presents a real problem for Starmie. However, it must be wary of Life Orb-boosted Thunder or Psyshock, both which will 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage. Bulky Toxicroak can check Starmie without Psyshock, although even then Starmie must watch out for Sucker Punch. Weavile is faster than Starmie and traps it with Pursuit. However, Weavile has difficulty switching on any move not named Ice Beam or Psyshock. Specially defensive Rotom-W is also hard to deal with, but it must be wary of Psyshock, which can 2HKO if it is coming from offensive sets. Most faster Pokémon can also revenge kill Starmie, due to its above-average bulk. For example, Scarf Landorus OHKO with U-Turn, Scarf Terrakion do the same with X-Scissor, and Jolteon outspeeds and take Starmie out with its Electric-type STAB. However, none of those revenge killers can switch on Starmie's moves.</p>
  2. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    809
    4 SpA EVs gives defensive Starmie just enough power to guarantee a OHKO on 4/0 Gengar with Psyshock (otherwise it has a 6.25% chance to survive and might OHKO back with Shadow Ball), so I think it'd be a good idea to move just 4 EVs from Def over to SpA. It shouldn't hurt Starmie's physical bulk much, and being able to guarantee a OHKO on Gengar is a pretty valuable thing.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Overview

    • Recover and Natural Cure make it the most resilient Rapid Spinner, as well as an ideal Pokemon for taking on defensive Water-types

    Bulky Rapid Spin


    Set Comments:

    • Thunderbolt is better than Ice Beam so i say slash it after Psyshock in the third slot and mention Ice Beam in the AC. Thunderbolt gives to Starmie a way to at least damage Jellicent, allowing it to 2HKO defensive variants if they have taken 25% previous damage and SR is on the field. It also allows it to counter Gyarados, a very dangerous Pokemon in general, damage Tentacruel, Politoed, Keldeo, and generaly many targets of Psyshock. In a few words it lets Starmie deal with threats it can actually switch into. Ice Beam hits mainly Pokemon that you can only revenge kill and cannot switch into at all (Dnite, Salamence, Breloom, Latios, Garchomp, etc), making it a much less desired option.
    ^ this is debatable so i want to see some discussion on it

    Additional Comments:

    • Thunder + 124 SpA EVs to 2HKO defensive Jellicent after SR (and Thunder in general for rain teams)
    • Reflect Type in the third slot. Reflect type lets Starmie beat Pokemon that it would otherwise have to gamble to do so, such as Scizor, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn. Many CB Tyranitar and Scizor switch in when you try to spin and take their chances (70%) of ohkoing you with Pursuit, and Reflect type completely solves this, and allows you to keep your important spinner alive. Ferrothorn is also easily beaten and cannot do anything back at you (it can't even Leech Seed you) while you can take your time and fish for the Scald burn. Finally you can easily stay into non-Scarf Rotom-W and copy its typing, allowing you to beat it one on one if it decides to stay in, or just deny the opponent from momentum if it uses Volt Switch

    Life Orb


    Set Comments:

    • This is how i would make the set to look like:
    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam / Recover
    move 4: Rapid Spin
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers

    • long ass reasoning (open)
      Here is the reasoning behind it. First Surf should be slashed for the classic matter of power vs reliability. Then Psyshock is the next best option as it deals with important Pokemon that Starmie is fit to handle, such as Keldeo, Tentacruel, and Terrakion in sand, as well as many other important Pokemon such as Gengar, Breloom, Blissey, SpD Jellicent, Rotom-W, Toxicroak, Gastrodon and Venusaur (all those Pokemon are either OHKOed or 2HKOed after SR). Ice Beam is slashed first in the next slot as obviously Dragon-types and Celebi are very important targets that you don't want to miss on hitting and so Hydro Pump + Psyshock + Ice Beam provide the best coverage possible. Thunderbolt is an option over Psyshock as it has good coverage with Ice Beam obviously and hits some threats such as Gyarados, Politoed, defensive Jellicent, and Starmie, but Psyshock is clearly the better option. In the third slot Recover is slashed second as some teams want Starmie to spin more than once, while also wanting offensive pressence (meaning that defensive Starmie is a no), and Recover helps a lot. Recover should be used with Hydro Pumo + Psyshock, as those two together hit the biggest number of targets and are Starmie's strongest moves as well. tl;dr Hydro Pump + Psyshock + Ice Beam is the best three move combo and sets with Recover should use Hydro Pump + Psyshock, while Thunderbolt is good for teams that have troubles with Gyarados and defensive Jellicent. Finally, Leftovers should really be on the set as LO damage + hazard damage + resisted attacks will kill Starmie insanely fast (as well as potential sandstorm damage) and not all teams want that. For example i would almost never use LO Starmie on a sand team.
    Additional Comments:

    • HP Fire on sun teams
    • Thunder for rain teams
    • Blissey is not a counter. SubRoost Kyurem, Chansey, SpD Celebi, and Ferrothorn are
    • Therefore strong Fighting Pokemon are awesome partners. Terrakion, Toxicroak, and Breloom can deal with most of those Pokemon

    Choice Scarf


    Set Comments:

    • Slash Hydro Pump before or after Surf
    • Maybe slash Psyshic / Psyshock somewhere

    Checks and Counters

    • Blissey is only a check as both LO and Specs 2HKO with Psyshock after SR.
    • Similarly defensive Jellicent is 2HKOed by LO Tbolt, and SpD Jellicent is 2HKOed by LO Psyshock after SR
    • Mention that Rotom-W has to be careful of LO / Specs Psyshock but other than that it is a fantastic check
    • SpD Kyu-B counters any offensive set, while any other Kyu-B set is a good check
    • SpD Celebi and Chansey are the only true counters to any Starmie
  4. Jukain

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    Hi any Kyurem-B set with HP investment walls Starmie j/s. It is a perfect Starmie counter.

    Also, Ice Beam is totally useful for bulky Starmie. The idea is that Starmie is really fast and can revenge kill every Dragon-type in this metagame other than Latias and Kyurem(-B). It should not be shoved into AC in lieu of the situational Thunderbolt.
  5. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    On the Defensive Rapid Spin set, especially because out speeding Gengar is so emphasized, I believe that it is worth mentioning that it takes 12 SpA EVs to 100% OHKO one that plops the extra point in Defense in stead of HP. 4 SpA Starmie does always kill 4 HP Gengar, but fails against 4 Def Gengar 6.25% of the time. That may not sound major, but that's the same chance as a critical hit, and we all know how they happen at the most inopportune times to lose us matches.

    Also, since the HP EV's are being set to 248 anyway instead of bog-252, it might be worth noting that further lowering to 240 EVs hits 321 HP, a Leftovers number. I usually do both of those things on my Defensive Stars, leaving me with the EV spread of 240 HP / 32 Def / 12 SpA / 224 Spe.
  6. tehy

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    May as well post this here too:

    An alternate EV spread that only outspeeds Timid Tornadus-I by one point, with the rest of the wayward Speed EVs in HP, is surprisingly helpful. You take about 50% max from Timid Air Balloon Heatran's Earth Power/Dragon Pulse/Fire Blast. Additionally, I recall Skarmory only doing about 50% with Brave Bird. This allows you to Recover-stall Skarm into KO range for free, which means you can switch in and spin on it with the greatest of ease. It also allows you switch into Heatran (Unless it has Dark Pulse/SE HP), and then either spin the rocks he just set, or heal off the damage he just dealt you. In the second case, he could roll for a crit, but that gives you plenty of time to OHKO him, so it's not risk-free.

    Without the evs, it's more like max 55% or similar, which can really be a problem for Starmie against these 2 threats. Meanwhile, all you give up is the ability to speed tie with opposing Starmies and... Azelfs, I suppose. As long as you have a good Starmie answer, this is definitely viable and I've had great success with it.
  7. alexwolf

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    This hasn't passed the QC stage so please revert it back to skeleton form again...
  8. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Living in a world gone plastic
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    Actually alex from what I seem to remember there's a some system where 2/3 are needed for a skeleton and then the final one happens in fully written form.
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/announcement.php?f=215

    "After an analysis receives two stamps of approval, the author will be permitted to write up the full analysis. Then, after it receives one more stamp of approval, the author may have it grammar checked before going on-site."

    This may have changed or something since it was posted, I'm not too well versed in it.
  9. ginganinja

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    Dark Fallen Angel in this analysis (specifically the LO set) can you mention Psyshock / Thunderbolt having an impact on what Jellicent beats you (Utility Counter vs SDef). Personally, I think Thunder needs a bigger mention for nailing SDef Jellicent as well (that and Starmie is also used a lot in rain) but I guess its just one of those things (the entire weather debate on moves like Thunder).

    Also alexwolfs LO set order looks p. nice I GUESS
  10. alexwolf

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    Yeah guys i made a mistake so sorry for that. However DFA you still haven't implemented the changes i mentioned, which were also posted in the previous Starmie analysis before it got its 2nd QC check but were never implemented. We are talking currently with the QC team about some things, so just wait and don't do anything until further notice.

    EDIT: Ok so add everything i mentioned except for this:

  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Once again, add the changes i told you. The LO should look different and so should the set description.

    Slash Surf with Hydro Pump in the Specs set.

    I don't get why you make this difficult for both you and us, as now you have to rewrite some bits of the LO's Set Comments and make us come here again and again to see if you finally added the changes.
  12. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I would like to know which changes should be made now, because last time I checked I made these changes you suggested (except that about Surf on the Specs set)
  13. alexwolf

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  14. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    After reading the entire analysis, I realized that I forgot to do some changes on the Life Orb set. Thanks for pointing this error. I believe that there is nothing else wrong with the analysis.
  15. alexwolf

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    This is how the offensive rapid spinner should look like (it is alrdy mentioned in my first post in this thread btw):

    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam / Recover
    move 4: Rapid Spin
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers

    Mention Thunder in the AC of the set. Mention that with LO and Thunder Starmie can get past any Jellicent variant, unlike Psyshock or Thunderbolt which only let you 2HKO one of the two Jellicent variants. You also got HP Fire completely wrong. HP Fire is only meant to be used in sun teams, where the Water STAB is not always usable, and HP Fire is guaranteed to OHKO Ferrothorn and other threats. So remove all the other stuff you wrote, and mentiong that HP Fire should be used on sun teams.

    On the Bulky Rapid Spin set...

    Slash Ice Beam after Psyshock, as it was decided by the QC team that it is overall more useful than Thunderbolt.

    You got it wrong, you are not going to remove the EVs from Speed but from HP. Correct this.

    I am still buffled as to why it was so hard to implement the changes i told you, considering that they were on the second post of this analysis.
  16. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Made changes, although I was so sure that I changed the first analysis... Maybe it was the problem that I have on my PC and I forgot later to change again.
  17. alexwolf

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    I don't get what you try to say here. OU has the best spinners available, Tentacruel and Starmie, as well as Xatu and Espeon, so actually there are more viable ways to remove hazards than in any other tier. So remove this sentence and just say that Starmie is one of the two Rapid Spinners that can get past any Ghost-type. Also add that offensive Starmie is both an excellent spinner and special attacker, due to its excellent Speed, STABs, and coverage, and is a menace in rain.

    When talking about Starmie's weakness to Ferrothorn, mention that Ferrothorn still has to be careful about Scald burns, as a burned Ferrothorn actually loses 1v1 against defensive Starmie.

    Remove this as BoltBeam coverage is not the main coverage slashed on the set. Just mention that Starmie has moves that compliment its water STAB great. Also rename the set to Offensive Rapid Spin.

    Hydro Pump hits Terrakion for the same damage as Psyshock in sand, but has worse accuracy, so make sure to explain that.

    Remove the mention of Poison and Fighting types and just list the threats that Psyshock deals with, namely Tentacruel, Venusaur, Toxicroak, Breloom, Blissey, Amoonguss, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, and specially defensive Jellicent (in addition to Keldeo which you have already mentioned).

    When talking about Ice Beam, mention Celebi, which completely walls Starmie otherwise.

    Make Rapid Spin the first move on the set, because as you said it is the crux of this set, and explain in the beggining of the Set Comments what it does. Also Starmie doesn't beat most spinblockers, it beats all spinblockers with the right move, so mention that.

    In the AC of the same set, when talking about 3 attack + Recover, cut down the hyperboles. Recover doesn't turn Starmie into a fearsome sweeper, it just lets it last long enough to take some weak resisted hits and maybe clean up late game. Also the first thing you should describe in the AC is LO vs Lefties, and not things that are not even mentioned in the main set. Anything not mentioned in the main set gets explained after everything in the main set is.

    Remove Grass Knot and HP Grass from the AC, as Psyshock 2HKOes Gastrodon and Rotom-W anyway, and covers specially defensive Jellicent too, while Thunder covers Rotom-W and any Jellicent.

    When talking about partners for offensive Starmie Heatran shouldn't in any way be mentioned first. Offensive Starmie's favorite enviroment is rain, and Heatran doesn't fit there. The first partners that you should mention are Politoed, Breloom, Scizor, and Terrakion, Pokemon that can get past the Pokemon that trouble Starmie (Ferrothorn, Chansey, Celebi, some Jellicent, Kyurem(-B)) or make Starmie an offensive powerhouse in Politoed's case.

    Make it: "enough to survive a couple of resisted hits''. Also change the second sentence to: What makes Starmie such a great defensive Spinner is its great Speed, Recover, and Natural Cure.

    When talking about Thunderbolt on the Defensive set, mention how it lets Starmie to at least do some meaningful damage to Jellicent. Mention that Ice Beam hits Tornadus too, as they way you have it now makes it seem as only Tbolt does that.

    The Speed EVs are enough to outspeed everything up to Tornadus, not Gengar. Also mention that Thunder with 124 SpA EVs only allow Starmie to get past physically defensive Jellicent, as the SpD variant still walls Starmie. When talking about Toxic, remove all the unecessary stuff. Toxic should only be used over the coverage move of Starmie and nothing else. If your team doesn't have issues with Gengar, dropping Psyshock in order to deal with spinblockers better is a perfectly acceptable choice.

    Celebi is a huge threat for defensive Starmie so add that too. Scizor and Heatran deal with Celebi easily.

    Will come for more later...
  18. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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  19. Ernesto

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    Question, isn´t Volcarona a partner worthy of mention, at least for the offensive set? It's one of the sweepers that enjoy Starmie's Offensive Rapid Spinning duties the most, together with Dragonite probably, and can work in Rain just fine—also beating Ferrothorn for Starmie. I ask because the first thing that comes to my mind when I want to make a team with Offensive Starmie, is stuff that can take advantage of what it has to offer them as means of support, not trying to use Starmie as my first sweeper but as a backup one—the way to talk about its partners, you're mentioning stuff that can aid Starmie and not stuff that enjoy Starmie's partnership.

    It's just my way of seeing it, I might be wrong though.

    EDIT: Also, the Breloom-Starmie-Volc core was a tried and true one at some point in BW2, even if now it sees less usage.
  20. jc104

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    Could you mention analytic in OO please. Although Starmie is fast, it still works on the switch, allowing starmie to do ridiculous things like 2HKOing Blissey and doing over 50% to Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump in the rain. The reason not to use it is largely that keldeo does the job better (similarly powerful, but all the time rather than just on the switch), not because it isn't strong.
  21. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Well remembered, I was not even thinking of Volcarona, and it is really amazing under rain, I know this because I recently created a rain team with Volcarona and Starmie used thogether.

    Analytic was also mentioned.
  22. Pocket

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    Another meaty analyses - you did a decent job at this, Dark Fallen Angel. This is part 1 of 2

    Overview - you should note Starmie's combination of speed and power is what makes it more than just a spinner, but a check to many dangerous threats, namely Landorus, Keldeo, Gengar, and Tornadus. It also would not hurt noting that it's particularly dangerous on Drizzle teams.
    Add here that it can run a defensive spread because of these qualities
    Offensive Spinner
    incorrect: 252 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar in rain: 313-369 (119.46 - 140.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Be more specific - it misses out an OHKO on Gengar even with Life Orb, and now it needs Life Orb to OHKO Scizor in Rain after SR.
    Worth noting that with EB it still nabs critical 2HKOs versus Support Tyranitar (w/ Hydro Pump), Max HP Latias (w/ Ice Beam), and non-specially defensive Jellicent (w/ Tbolt) after SR.
    Move this to OO - Starmie's main niche is Rapid Spin, so replacing it is not on the table for this set.
    Eh, Idk about this - the whole point of this set is to overcome spinblockers singlehandedly without any Pursuit support. Rather than suggesting Pursuit, I'd recommend Spikes / TSpikes users to better wear down some of the more resilient spinblockers. Entry hazards in general is useful for scoring crucial 2HKOs to bulky mons, so definitely emphasize entry hazard support. You can still suggest Tyranitar for dispatching Celebi and Latias with ease, and Weavile as a partner who appreciates SR being spun away by Starmie, though.

    Defensive
    Eh, tone down the hyperbole - I think it's still less bulky than Tentacruel in Rain, not to mention it's still deathly afraid of Ferrothorn's Power Whip despite the heavy investment in HP.
    Add that Ice Beam also useful for Landorus (both Incarnate and Therian), since Scald fails to come close to OHKO them.
    You should warn readers not to overestimate Starmie's bulk, though, since it's coming off of its paltry defense. Specs Keldeo / Specs Toed, for instance, will smash through Starmie. Even Scarf Keldeo 2HKOs Starmie with Rain-boosted Hydro Pump.
    You should note that max Speed is useful for other Starmie if your Starmie is running Tbolt
    Specify that this is the physically defensive Jellicent
    Specify that this Jellicent is specially defensive
  23. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    So is there no conversation about this particular EV spread for the Defensive Rapid Spin set? I'm not QC so I never saw it discussed at all and wanted to make sure it was seen.
  24. Pocket

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    I wouldn't mind if 12 EVs go into SpA rather than Defense.

    Leftovers number really doesn't mean much, though - ultimately Max HP gives Starmie the best bulk, so I'll stick with Max HP

    If any of the QC members have any qualms, perhaps we can change it to 252 HP / 20 Def / 12 SpA / 224 Spe?
  25. BKC

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    i like pocket's spread for the bulky set.

    i would slash in spin on the specs set. it's good to mess with stall by crippling one mon (usually jellicent) and then spinning!

    scarf starmie is horrible
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