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Starmie (Defensive Rapid Spin) [QC 3/3]
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This set is truly excellent. It gives stall teams a hard time because Starmie doesn't care about status and the star can get rid of hazards. Starmie's naturally pretty bulky and fast enough to get up a Recover. The fact that it losses to Jellicent doesn't really matter because Starmie is going to have a hard time getting a spin off, or doing anything relevant to Jellicent at all(not to mention that all non lo'd starmie lose to jellicent).
Ofc they can deal with it, but Starmie doesn't die. Scald(in my experience) makes this do well against stall. This set is trying to wear down the common members of a stall team(via scald burns), it's using it's bulky, typing, natural cure, and ability to support itself and the team. that's what gives stall a hard time.
The thing is, Blissey/Chansey have Natural Cure as well, and can PP stall Starmie. Grass-types can straight up OHKO Starmie (a large portion of them have Natural Cure as well). Tyranitar can only be dealt with Scald burns, but that is not reliable (the Choice Scarf set doesn't have to worry about Scald burns if you don't switch it in directly). Jellicent can stall this out, and some carry Shadow Ball. Also, "wearing down common members" will not work as a large chunk of them have recovery.
It doesn't matter if Blissey and Chansey aren't dying, they are being forced out / forced to recover and Starmie is getting rid of hazards so that other Pokemon can come in safely when your opponent is trying to set them up again. Choice Scarf set will still lose if it gets burned while trying to Pursuit Starmie and Jellicent just outstalls any spinner out there except for Toxic Tentacruel or offensive Starmie (and even then I think it needs Thunder). It's a set that does well not because it breaks stall apart, but because it's undoubtedly the most durable spinner out there, not to mention many of those teams mostly have 0 means of OHKOing her.
Posting to say that this set is good!
Also shouldn't the moves be like this: 1. Scald, 2. Rapid Spin, 3.Recover, 4. Psychic/Tbolt ? From the most important to the last one? Since this set's purpose is a durable fast spinner that can stay healthy through the match while having the potential to revenge kill some threats? Which means that revenge killing and coverage is this set's last priority?
To go further on this point, since the last move is not very important for the set, and can really vary from team to team, according to a player's needs, why not also slash, or mention in the AC, Reflect over the coverage move?
It lets Starmie escape from any Pursuit user if the 50% chance of burning the opponent's slower Pursuit user doesn't appear (2 hits, the first when they come in, and the second as they try to kill you), or if the 30% chance of burning the opponent's faster Pursuit user doesn't appear (1 hit as they come in), or if they have a faster Pursuit user, which simply comes in after you kill something.
It also allows Starmie to take on Scarf and Band Terrakion in sand, since after Terrakion kills something Starmie can easily set-up a Reflect and Recover 'till Terrakion misses or doesn't have more PP. Without Reflect Scarf Terrakion can simply 2hko while you dont ohko back with Scald, and CB Terra can just ohko with SE after you fail to ohko with Scald (in Sand of 'course). Starmie actually only 3hkoes Terrakion in Sand (38.88 - 46.29%), 2hkoes him out of sand (58.02 - 69.13%), and has a small chance to ohko in rain (87.03 - 102.46%).
The same goes for non Scarf Landorus, which take 73.35 - 86.52% from a Scald and can potentially ohko you back without Reflect (73.14 - 86.41%, EQ in sand), or wound you heavily before going down.
Same for Mamoswine, which only takes 71.82 - 85.08% from Scald, and can 2hko with EQ and Ice Shard (Adamant LO EQ does 82.4 - 97.22%, 62.5% chance to OHKO after SR), or severely dent you before dying.
I know that most of you will say, in what world will all those pokes would stay in against a Starmie, but if the opponent knows your set, and this is his best move for the moment, why not go for it?
With Reflect Starmie can also actually beat Ferrothorn, as a Power Whip does 43.2 - 51.85% behind Reflect, so you can easily wait 'till your Burn him and then slowly kill him with Scald.
So yes, you should definitely consider Reflect, as it makes Starmie's job of spinning quite easier!
Also shouldn't the moves be like this: 1. Scald, 2. Rapid Spin, 3.Recover, 4. Psychic/Tbolt ? From the most important to the last one? Since this set's purpose is a durable fast spinner that can stay healthy through the match while having the potential to revenge kill some threats? Which means that revenge killing and coverage is this set's last priority?
To go further on this point, since the last move is not very important for the set, and can really vary from team to team, according to a player's needs, why not also slash, or mention in the AC, Reflect over the coverage move?
It lets Starmie escape from any Pursuit user if the 50% chance of burning the opponent's slower Pursuit user doesn't appear (2 hits, the first when they come in, and the second as they try to kill you), or if the 30% chance of burning the opponent's faster Pursuit user doesn't appear (1 hit as they come in), or if they have a faster Pursuit user, which simply comes in after you kill something.
It also allows Starmie to take on Scarf and Band Terrakion in sand, since after Terrakion kills something Starmie can easily set-up a Reflect and Recover 'till Terrakion misses or doesn't have more PP. Without Reflect Scarf Terrakion can simply 2hko while you dont ohko back with Scald, and CB Terra can just ohko with SE after you fail to ohko with Scald (in Sand of 'course). Starmie actually only 3hkoes Terrakion in Sand (38.88 - 46.29%), 2hkoes him out of sand (58.02 - 69.13%), and has a small chance to ohko in rain (87.03 - 102.46%).
The same goes for non Scarf Landorus, which take 73.35 - 86.52% from a Scald and can potentially ohko you back without Reflect (73.14 - 86.41%, EQ in sand), or wound you heavily before going down.
Same for Mamoswine, which only takes 71.82 - 85.08% from Scald, and can 2hko with EQ and Ice Shard (Adamant LO EQ does 82.4 - 97.22%, 62.5% chance to OHKO after SR), or severely dent you before dying.
I know that most of you will say, in what world will all those pokes would stay in against a Starmie, but if the opponent knows your set, and this is his best move for the moment, why not go for it?
With Reflect Starmie can also actually beat Ferrothorn, as a Power Whip does 43.2 - 51.85% behind Reflect, so you can easily wait 'till your Burn him and then slowly kill him with Scald.
So yes, you should definitely consider Reflect, as it makes Starmie's job of spinning quite easier!
Bloo
Banned deucer.
Princess Bri sucks, but you guys should still approve this set. I don't understand some of the objections. I've used it on countless occasions with great success, and I, along with other players such as Bluewind and reyscarface can vouch for its effectiveness too.
Hazards are omnipresent in today's metagame. They are literally everywhere, which makes having a Spinner on your team a blessing. Deoxys-D, Skarmory, Forretress, Heatran, you name it. All of those Pokemon are commonly seen using hazards, and Starmie does an absolutely fantastic job of spinning their hazards away, and can threaten them all with a combo of Scald and Rapid Spin, while taking little from their hits. I always say that having a Rapid Spinner in today's metagame is vital because hazards are so prevalent, and Starmie is, in my opinion, the best spinner in OU for the job. With the investment in bulk, Recover, and Natural Cure, it will be sticking around for a long time if you play your cards right, making Starmie a very reliably Spinner. Additionally, Starmie can take advantage of its resistance to Fighting and Water to switch in on a resisted hit and threaten a Spin, or even use Scald to have a chance of burning that incoming Ferrothorn or Tyranitar that wants to try and Pursuit you.
This set definitely doesn't have the offensive presence LO Starmie does, but this Starmie isn't meant to be offensive. It's supposed to be able to stick around long enough to Spin by taking advantage of the added bulk (and Recover, of course), while absorbing a hit or two from Pokemon like CB Terrakion if you need it to (a lot of VoltTurn teams, for example, have Starmie as their best switch-in to Terrakion; hell, it can even Recover off a U-Turn from Scarf Landorus if need be, unlike offensive Starmie). Its inability to get past Jellicent shouldn't be a reason to reject this set. Not every team runs a spin blocker when using hazards. If they do happen to have a Jellicent as their spin blocker, you can make it your goal to get rid of it. There are ways to kill Jellicent or weaken it enough through your own hazards + double switches to wear it down enough to prevent it from spin blocking eventually. Other spin blockers like Gengar fear Psychic and are slower than Starmie, which is another reason as to why Starmie is such a good Spinner.
I'll use my Sunday Tour semifinal match against mien as an example since Bri brought it up. I disconnected before the game had a chance to play out in full, but the game lasted a good 70 or so turns before that happened. mien had a heavy defensive team, while I had VoltTurn with the defensive Starmie shown in the OP. I was pretty much able to switch-in Starmie without a fear most of the time since nothing on mien's team had a super effective attack against my Starmie, with the exception of one Pokemon (which had to risk getting burned if it wanted to switch in). This allowed me to spin away mien's hazards rather easily whenever he tried setting them up. mien did have Chansey, which walled my Starmie, but that doesn't matter. Starmie didn't care about being walled by his Chansey, since it was able to spin hazards away and Recover off Seismic Toss damage, while I was then able to switch to something like Scizor to threaten Chansey out, and rinse and repeat later. The match dragged on for turns upon turns with the same cycle being repeated, but the match showed how well Starmie does its job as a Spinner.
Against offensive teams with Deoxys-D, Starmie can lead off and Scald the Deoxys-D, and Rapid Spin its hazards as the Deo-D sets them up. If the Deoxys-D has Rocky Helmet to cause damage to the Starmie as it tries spinning, you can Recover off the damage. I did all of these things in Sunday's tour as well. Anyway, this post is kind of rushed and I'm sure I missed some things, but I hope you guys can see what I mean. It's a great set, and it's my preferred Starmie to use on my teams. If you need a Spinner that can stick around for a while, switch in on some hits, and pose a threat too, then this variant of Starmie will serve you well.
Hazards are omnipresent in today's metagame. They are literally everywhere, which makes having a Spinner on your team a blessing. Deoxys-D, Skarmory, Forretress, Heatran, you name it. All of those Pokemon are commonly seen using hazards, and Starmie does an absolutely fantastic job of spinning their hazards away, and can threaten them all with a combo of Scald and Rapid Spin, while taking little from their hits. I always say that having a Rapid Spinner in today's metagame is vital because hazards are so prevalent, and Starmie is, in my opinion, the best spinner in OU for the job. With the investment in bulk, Recover, and Natural Cure, it will be sticking around for a long time if you play your cards right, making Starmie a very reliably Spinner. Additionally, Starmie can take advantage of its resistance to Fighting and Water to switch in on a resisted hit and threaten a Spin, or even use Scald to have a chance of burning that incoming Ferrothorn or Tyranitar that wants to try and Pursuit you.
This set definitely doesn't have the offensive presence LO Starmie does, but this Starmie isn't meant to be offensive. It's supposed to be able to stick around long enough to Spin by taking advantage of the added bulk (and Recover, of course), while absorbing a hit or two from Pokemon like CB Terrakion if you need it to (a lot of VoltTurn teams, for example, have Starmie as their best switch-in to Terrakion; hell, it can even Recover off a U-Turn from Scarf Landorus if need be, unlike offensive Starmie). Its inability to get past Jellicent shouldn't be a reason to reject this set. Not every team runs a spin blocker when using hazards. If they do happen to have a Jellicent as their spin blocker, you can make it your goal to get rid of it. There are ways to kill Jellicent or weaken it enough through your own hazards + double switches to wear it down enough to prevent it from spin blocking eventually. Other spin blockers like Gengar fear Psychic and are slower than Starmie, which is another reason as to why Starmie is such a good Spinner.
I'll use my Sunday Tour semifinal match against mien as an example since Bri brought it up. I disconnected before the game had a chance to play out in full, but the game lasted a good 70 or so turns before that happened. mien had a heavy defensive team, while I had VoltTurn with the defensive Starmie shown in the OP. I was pretty much able to switch-in Starmie without a fear most of the time since nothing on mien's team had a super effective attack against my Starmie, with the exception of one Pokemon (which had to risk getting burned if it wanted to switch in). This allowed me to spin away mien's hazards rather easily whenever he tried setting them up. mien did have Chansey, which walled my Starmie, but that doesn't matter. Starmie didn't care about being walled by his Chansey, since it was able to spin hazards away and Recover off Seismic Toss damage, while I was then able to switch to something like Scizor to threaten Chansey out, and rinse and repeat later. The match dragged on for turns upon turns with the same cycle being repeated, but the match showed how well Starmie does its job as a Spinner.
Against offensive teams with Deoxys-D, Starmie can lead off and Scald the Deoxys-D, and Rapid Spin its hazards as the Deo-D sets them up. If the Deoxys-D has Rocky Helmet to cause damage to the Starmie as it tries spinning, you can Recover off the damage. I did all of these things in Sunday's tour as well. Anyway, this post is kind of rushed and I'm sure I missed some things, but I hope you guys can see what I mean. It's a great set, and it's my preferred Starmie to use on my teams. If you need a Spinner that can stick around for a while, switch in on some hits, and pose a threat too, then this variant of Starmie will serve you well.
Sorry for not getting to this analysis, Princess Bri. You and other convinced me that this set deserve to be recognized in isolation from the other Starmie sets; I just want to have a good look-over at the details before giving the stamp.
Bloo, you can approve this set if you want -_-
Bloo, you can approve this set if you want -_-
slash psyshock on the psychic spot, it lets you OHKO a -1 Terrakion after Stealth Rock with no SpAtk investment and thats important as hell, specially when the Terrakion user sees Leftovers and he thinks defensive Starmie wont be OHKOing. Also hits Blissey harder, has a better chance to OHKO Gengar, and still does Psychic's job but it has those little useful things you may want to take advantage of depending on your team, either Psyshock for a Terrakion or Psychic for say, Breloom.
Also I do think Hydro Pump deserves a slash with Scald. Most of the time Scald will be the prefered choice, but Hydro Pump's power is really useful, doing stuff like also OHKOing a Terrakion in sand at -1 after SR, OHKOing Landorus and Gliscor without the need of Ice Beam, lets you 2HKO a max HP Tyranitar after Stealth Rock, all of this without Special Attack investment. Hydro Pump is specially useful if your team is more offensive based, Scald is a better alternative if your team is more stall based, in my opinion.
and yeah supporting this set, its rad
Also I do think Hydro Pump deserves a slash with Scald. Most of the time Scald will be the prefered choice, but Hydro Pump's power is really useful, doing stuff like also OHKOing a Terrakion in sand at -1 after SR, OHKOing Landorus and Gliscor without the need of Ice Beam, lets you 2HKO a max HP Tyranitar after Stealth Rock, all of this without Special Attack investment. Hydro Pump is specially useful if your team is more offensive based, Scald is a better alternative if your team is more stall based, in my opinion.
and yeah supporting this set, its rad
Jesus, check out Bloo's post, it's like he poured his heart and soul into that post haha. I was on the edge at first (truth be told, this was before I had seen Snunch/BWs post) and was mulling it over, but Bloo's post definitely convinced me, no doubt about it.
QC APPROVED (2/3)
QC APPROVED (2/3)
Don't say PP-stall, since that's not the point of this set, and Blissey would out-stall Starmie anyways with Toxic. Re-phrase the last sentence.
Maybe change it to this:
"With the HP EVs and Recover, Starmie does not mind sticking around against Blissey in order to spin away hazards or to force Blissey to Softboiled."
Starmie does not need those extra SpA EVs to OHKO Gengar after Rocks; remove the phrase in red.
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- Replace Psyshock with Psychic; it does a better job at dispatching Sand Terrakion and Gengar than Psychic
- Either slash or AC mention Hydro Pump.
- Mention that Hydro Pump is useful for checking Terrakion without Psyshock (does the same amount of damage) and checking Landorus / Gliscor without Ice Beam.
- Mention that Hydro Pump also scores a 2HKO on CB Scizor after SR
- Mention that Hydro Pump scores a 2HKO on the standard Sableye after Rocks
- Change the EV Spread to 252 HP / 24 Def / 8 SpA / 224 Spe. The slight SpA EV investment does improve Starmie's chance in taking out Terrakion with Psyshock after SR damage and Def drop; rey actually overestimated Starmie's Psyshock's power. Any more SpA EVs is a waste, so put it back into Defense where it needs it the most. Psychic is already an OHKO on Gengar after Rocks, so I don't get what you're saying there.
- Drop Psychic to AC - mention how it's more useful for checking Breloom and Conkeldurr
- Drop TB to AC
- Drop T-Wave to AC
- Move Ice Beam from AC to Set Comments
- You may mention alexwolf's Reflect in AC, but don't forget to warn the readers that Starmie would be unable to touch Jellicent at all.
- You may mention Life Orb that Bluewind suggested under AC to let Starmie dish damage with its Hydro Pump. This would allow Starmie to OHKO Tornadus (in the Rain) and Offensive Heatran (w/o Rain) with Hydro Pump. It now has a 50-50 chance to 2HKO (given that they don't miss) bulky Tyranitar after Rocks, as well as an average OHKO on Virizion with Psyshock.
- After mentioning these significant KOs, remind the readers that Life Orb's recoil and the lack of Leftovers compromises Starmie's durability significantly.
- Great teammate suggestions - thumbs up.
Make these changes, and I can approve this.
EDIT: alexwolf, there's a difference between damage and no damage. At least a Psyshock Starmie can finish off a crippled Jellicent if it has to.
Please update this thread with Pocket's changes so we can get things started, alright?
taken over by dragonboy52