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Starmie (Full Revamp) [QC 3/3] (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Harsha, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    QC Approvals: zdrup15, AccidentalGreed, Pocket
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    Twinkle, twinkle little star...


    [Overview]

    <p>Starmie, along with Gengar, is one of only two Pokemon to have been OU since RBY. This is largely due to Starmie's ridiculous Speed stat, combined with its great coverage and decent Special Attack. These qualities allow Starmie to be one of the best revenge killers in the entire metagame, even without a choice item. On top of these traits, Starmie has access to a great ability in Natural Cure, and it is one of the best Rapid Spin users around. Furthermore, Starmie has the ability to hit most spinblockers very hard due to its outstanding coverage.</p>


    <p>Now, at this point, one might probably wonder why Starmie is not present on every team in OU. That's simply because BW introduced numerous Pokemon that harass Starmie, and even force it out. Ferrothorn takes a pittance from every single one of Starmie's attacks bar the rare Hidden Power Fire, and has the ability to OHKO Starmie with Power Whip. Additionally, the continued popularity of the powerful Pursuit and U-turn users Tyranitar and Scizor have severely limited Starmie's success. However, Starmie's positive traits more than outweigh its shortcomings, and the presence of Pokemon such as Dragonite and Volcarona, who need Rapid Spin support, will always keep Starmie in high demand.</p>


    [SET]

    name: Standard
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Rapid Spin / Recover
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    <p>This is easily the most used Starmie set, and for good reason. Starmie boasts great coverage with only three attacking moves; Thunderbolt and Ice Beam together are nearly unresisted alone, and Starmie has STAB Hydro Pump to back up its offensive presence. This set itself has two main variants: Rapid Spin and 3 Attacks + Recover. With Rapid Spin, Starmie gains the ability to clear the field for sweepers that benefit from Rapid Spin support, particularly Dragonite and Volcarona. This set's utility is great when one considers that teams utilizing the VoltTurn strategy, as well as the vast majority of OU sweepers appreciate Rapid Spin a lot, and Starmie is one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier
    allowing it to effectively revenge kill. However, if one forgoes Rapid Spin for Recover, Starmie becomes a great mid-game sweeper due to its great Speed and high Special Attack, especially when boosted a Life Orb.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    <p>The EVs are tailored to give Starmie as much Speed as possible, because after Starmie has cleared the field of hazards, it will most likely become the team's revenge killer, insuring your team against threats such as
    Dragonite, Terrakion, and Latios. Maximum Special Attack EVs also ensure that Starmie can deal significant damage to the opponent. Life Orb is great for players who need a more powerful Starmie; in particular, Life Orb lets Starmie 2HKO Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, and 2HKO Jellicent—a common spinblocker—with Thunderbolt. However, one can go with Leftovers for more reliable Rapid Spin support, as Starmie's health will not deplete each turn, including turns when one simply uses Rapid Spin. An alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe can be used for those who want a Starmie that can still revenge kill, but can also sponge hits due to its slightly greater bulk. Scald is a good choice in a bulkier Starmie's moveset because it allows Starmie to potentially burn foes. Starmie can also make use of Expert Belt to bluff a Choice set, and also gains the aforementioned 2HKOs without the drop in health. One can run Recover and Rapid Spin on the same set for even more reliable spin support, replacing Thunderbolt or Ice Beam, but the loss in coverage is undesirable.</p>

    <p>Starmie's best friend is rain, so Drizzle support from Politoed is always a nice thing to have. Rain grants Starmie a second STAB on Hydro Pump, and it also allows Starmie to reliably use Thunder instead of the weaker Thunderbolt. Additionally, many rain sweepers, such as Tornadus, require Rapid Spin support, which Starmie gladly provides. Even outside of rain, beneficiaries of Rapid Spin, such as Gyarados and Dragonite, make good teammates, because they have an easier time setting up when hazards are gone. Starmie is also useful on many VoltTurn teams because it clears the field of hazards, allowing Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Scizor to use Volt Switch and U-turn without fear of losing health.</p>


    <p>Conversely, Starmie requires some support too. Ferrothorn is Starmie's worst enemy; not only is standard Starmie's strongest option against it a neutral, weak Ice Beam, it also hurts Starmie every time Starmie uses Rapid Spin. Additionally, it can lay hazards that will bother the Pokemon Starmie tries to clear the field for. STAB Power Whip from Ferrothorn does a lot of damage, OHKOing standard Starmie, and possibly even 252/0 Starmie as well. For this reason, Magnezone is a great supporter of Starmie, thanks to its ability to trap and take down Ferrothorn. Blissey, Chansey, and Tyranitar can all sponge hits, although the latter is 2HKOed by Life Orb Starmie's Hydro Pump. Tyranitar and Scizor do well checking Starmie because of their access to Pursuit, which Starmie is weak to. Fighting-types such as Breloom, Terrakion, and Conkeldurr are hence good teammates, because they can OHKO or force out all of Starmie's counters bar Scizor.</p>


    [SET]

    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Psyshock / Trick
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    <p>With Choice Specs equipped, Starmie becomes downright deadly. Though some counters still remain, all of Starmie's attacks have an extra punch behind them. However, Starmie does not have to sacrifice its defining Speed to reach such high power, which is one of the biggest boons to Choice Specs Starmie. In addition, status cannot slow Starmie down thanks to Natural Cure, and even some of Starmie's biggest counters pale at the sight of this behemoth. Hydro Pump provides obligatory STAB, and it has monstrous power. One could, however, elect to use Surf for reliability, as one simple miss could ruin a match. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt provide optimal coverage, and both are significantly boosted by Choice Specs. Psyshock does a massive amount of damage, OHKOing Virizion and 2HKOing standard Gastrodon, but Trick is another option to consider because it cripples Starmie's more notable counters, namely
    Blissey and Ferrothorn.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    <p>The EVs are standard on all Starmie; they enable Starmie to outspeed threats and hit back hard. Timid should always be the primary nature because it allows Starmie to outspeed and check most Pokemon in OU, especially
    Latios and Terrakion. However, a Modest nature is worth considering on this set simply because with Stealth Rock support, Starmie can 2HKO Blissey with Psyshock. One can also choose to use Hidden Power Fire or Hidden Power Grass to hit Ferrothorn or Gastrodon respectively harder, but these are generally not recommended over the standard coverage moves because it loses coverage on some Pokemon. Psychic is another option if one wants the 10 additional Base Power, but it is not recommended as the ability to demolish Pokemon with low physical defense is the main draw of Psyshock.</p>

    <p>As with all of Starmie's sets, rain support is appreciated here. Rain helps Hydro Pump hit much harder, and it also allows Starmie to run Thunder. Due to this set's immense power, it has far fewer counters than virtually all Starmie's other sets. However, Choice Specs Starmie becomes Pursuit fodder after KOing a Pokemon, so one should always make sure that Tyranitar is checked before spamming Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, or Psyshock, which are all invitations for Tyranitar to come in and wreak havoc. Ferrothorn still remains as a hard counter to this set, taking next to nothing from all of Starmie's moves, and only fearing Trick. Due to this, Fighting-types, particularly
    Terrakion and Breloom, are appreciated as supporters to Starmie.</p>

    <p>The Choice Specs set is a lot more vulnerable to the likes of Jellicent, though, as Recover and Water Absorb allow Jellicent to gain back most of its HP. While Jellicent must watch out for Thunderbolt, Starmie cannot go about spamming Hydro Pump when Jellicent is on the opposing team. Celebi and Latias can sponge hits from all attacks other than Ice Beam, so one should play carefully when either is being used by the opponent. Scizormakes a great partner as its powerful dual STABs in U-turn and Bullet Punch provide great utility to the team in scouting and revenge killing; U-turn also beats Latias and Celebi.</p>


    [SET]

    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    <p>While Choice Scarf seems like a very strange item to give such a naturally fast Pokemon, Choice Scarf Starmie is a revenge killer in the strictest sense of the word. Its ability to not only outspeed +1 threats, but even some +2 threats, namely Dragonite locked into Outrage or lacking ExtremeSpeed, Gyarados, Cloyster, and Venusaur, really comes in handy. Though Choice Scarf looks similar to the Choice Specs set, it plays very differently, mainly because it's not meant to break down Pokemon; instead, it focuses on outspeeding and handily KOing threats. With a powerful STAB Hydro Pump, as well as BoltBeam coverage, Starmie has everything it needs to be an effective revenge killer. Furthermore, it is capable of crippling its most common switch-ins, as well as lead Deoxys-D, with Trick. As a bonus, Starmie retains its monstrous Speed even after using Trick.</p>


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    <p>While most of the moves on this set are standard, Surf can replace Hydro Pump for reliability. Hidden Power Fire can be used to surprise Scizor, though there is no point in using Hidden Power Fire against Ferrothorn because Starmie will never be able to 2HKO Ferrothorn. Similarly, Hidden Power Grass can be used to keep Gastrodon and Rotom-W at bay. Rapid Spin remains an option on the set because Starmie can Trick away its Choice Scarf to become a standard Rapid Spin Starmie; however, one should probably just use the standard Rapid Spin set in the first place. Either Psyshock or Psychic can be used over Trick or a coverage move, but Trick offers the ability to cripple Ferrothorn, and the BoltBeam coverage is needed to revenge kill Gyarados and Dragonite.</p>


    <p>If you've read through the previous sets, there won't be any surprises here. As mentioned above, Choice-locked Starmie is very Pursuit weak; Tyranitar avoids a 2HKO by Hydro Pump and can use either Pursuit or Crunch to finish off Starmie. Scizor is a check in the same vein, but it has to avoid an errant Hidden Power Fire or Hydro Pump. Celebi is a good counter because any investment in bulk lets it avoid a 2HKO, and it can OHKO with Leaf Storm or Giga Drain. Chansey and Blissey wall this Starmie to Kanto and back, but both are crippled by Trick. Ferrothorn also hates Trick, and OHKOes Starmie with Power Whip to boot. Rain support is always appreciated, because it buffs Hydro Pump and enables the use of a perfectly accurate Thunder. Strong Fighting-types are also handy because they KO all of Starmie's aforementioned counters. In particular, strong sweepers such as Terrakion and Breloom appreciate Choice Scarf Starmie's revenge killing capabilities, because they may not be able to beat faster foes.</p>


    [Other Options]


    <p>While Starmie does not have many other options, there are some tweaks one can make to the standard sets that work just as effectively. Hidden Power Grass is an option, as it does well against the likes of Gastrodon and Rotom-W. Hidden Power Fire can be used, but it will only 2HKO Ferrothorn if a Life Orb is used
    so Ferrothorn must be hit on the switch. Psychic can be used if the STAB boost is appealing, but it doesn't contribute anything coverage-wise, as most Fighting-types are felled by STAB Hydro Pump. Access to Reflect and Light Screen enables Starmie to play the role of a dedicated team supporter, but there are other, better users of dual screens. Blizzard is an option if Starmie is run on a hail team, and indeed, hail teams often need a competent spinner that can hit hard. Gravity is an option that will aid Spike-stacking teams, and it also buffs the accuracy of Hydro Pump, Thunder, and Blizzard. Thunder Wave enables defensive variants of Starmie to support the team effectively, especially considering Ground-types will rarely switch in on Starmie. However, as it takes up a precious moveslot, one should have a good reason for using it.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]


    <p>While Starmie does boast amazing coverage and excellent stats, it does have its flaws. Dedicated special walls, most notably Blissey and Chansey, stop Starmie in its tracks. Starmie cannot even come close to 2HKOing the duo even with Choice Specs-boosted Psyshock, unless it has lots of hazard support. However, these are not always the best counters, because Starmie has the ability to carry Trick, which essentially neuters both Blissey and Chansey, rendering them useless for the rest of the match. Most Starmie do not carry Trick, though, so Blissey and Chansey remain very solid counters to most Starmie. While Ferrothorn resists nearly everything that Starmie throws at it, the rare Trick will also ruin it. Ferrothorn has the ability to OHKO Starmie with Power Whip, and is only 2HKOed by Starmie's Hidden Power Fire. Another solid counter is Gastrodon, as it is immune to both Hydro Pump and Thunderbolt, and thanks to its great Special Defense, it takes a pittance from a neutral Ice Beam. Starmie can possibly run Hidden Power Grass, though, so one must be wary when switching in Gastrodon because Gastrodon can be 2HKOed. Though less common, Porygon2 can sponge hits and retaliate with Thunderbolt, while Lanturn resists Hydro Pump and Ice Beam, is immune to Thunderbolt, and can OHKO with a Thunderbolt of its own.</p>


    <p>Due to Starmie's amazing coverage, checking the starfish is probably the best way to go, though. Not only is Tyranitar able to sponge most of Starmie's attacks, it can also use Pursuit to catch fleeing Starmie or use Crunch to decimate it. However, as Tyranitar is 2HKOed by offensive Starmie's Hydro Pump, Tyranitar is most safely used as a revenge killer unless one knows that Starmie has Leftovers. Scizor is another good check to Starmie, although it too has to watch out for rain-boosted Hydro Pump. Nonetheless, with access to Pursuit and U-turn, it can exploit Starmie's weakness to both Dark- and Bug-type attacks. Jellicent can sponge hits from Starmie and block Rapid Spin, so it can be considered a check. However, one should note that Starmie will hit very hard with Thunderbolt. Celebi can take everything except for Ice Beam, and can KO back with to Grass-type STAB attacks. Rotom-W can also come in and cause mayhem by Volt Switching back out again, but note that Thunderbolt will do a decent chunk of damage each time Rotom-W switches in. While Latias is hit super effectively by Ice Beam, it can stomach hits and set up; the same applies to Virizion, who has great special bulk to take everything but Psyshock. Jolteon can come in on Electric-type attacks and OHKO Starmie, so one should think twice before clicking on Thunderbolt.</p>


    [Dream World]


    <p>Simply put, Natural Cure is Starmie's only useful ability. Starmie is far too quick to be a noteworthy user of Analytic, and it is not even worth using as a gimmick.</p>
  2. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Scarfmie was always a favorite of mine. I propose that we just merge the two choice items into one set and call it "Choice". A new Scarfmie analysis could work too...it's what happened last gen.
  3. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    I was going to say that something of that sort could suffice, but I think that the major differences in Speed and power give it a reason to have two analyses.
  4. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere And the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate.
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    This. Scarf-mie checks a bunch of different Pokemon that Specs-mie does not (+1 Dragons / Gyara / Volcarona / etc). Definitely merits a seperate write up if this thing gets approved (which it should, because Scarf-mie is awesome).

    Probably worth mentioning Psyshock or Psychic in the AC, since STAB and they hit a few things like Blissey / Conkeldurr hard (although the latter is decreasing in usage).

    Is Max Speed also necessary? wouldn't enough speed to outpace scarfed base 108s be enough? You can throw the extra EVs into HP for some extra bulk.
  5. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Yeah, I needed some help with the EVs so I'll go crunch some numbers soon. And Psyshock / Psychic will go in the AC; dunno why I forgot them. Thanks, man!
  6. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Max speed is fine, since it lets it tie other Starmie and outpace Tornadus and Lati@s after it has tricked its scarf. The extra bulk that it gets from that small investment of HP isn't significant at all anyway.

    I would also slash Surf with Hydro Pump. It has solid power in the rain and is just a good, reliable move.
  7. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Seriously, extra HP EVs won't make or break anything. Keep the maximized Speed, please, for the reasons Super Mario Bro mentioned.
  8. Harsha

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    Alright, I'll give Surf a slash for reliability. I guess that since it runs Trick, max Speed should stay, and I agree with SMB's reasoning. Editing now.
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    When mentioning Psyshock, don't mention Blissey, since it aint gonna cut it. Instead mention how it provides a sure-fire way of checking CM Virizion and Gengar. Other than that, I'll stay clear from Psychic moves, as they don't offer much utility compared to the other moves.

    Starmie's min Speed should be 350 imo - this allows Starmie to even check Shell Smash Cloyster, which is as fast as it gets.

    EDIT: ninja'd by Super Mario Bro and Accidental Bro. yea, stick with max Speed. Also de-slash Modest for the same reason - you can mention it in AC.
  10. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Implemented the first part. I'll get to the Speed issue soon, but I think that out-speeding Tornadus after a Trick is a pretty good benchmark. However, Speed-tying opposing Starmie is pretty important, so I may just leave it at max Speed. Thanks Pocket!
  11. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Is Timid the main nature? I always ran Modest for lack of Life Orb and you outrun base 100s by 1 point if you Trick away your Scarf.
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Modest makes Starmie slower than Scarf Landorus and Scarf Terrakion - which makes you wonder why you're using Scarf Starmie in the first place.
  13. Omicron

    Omicron
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    I think outspeeding those certain targets is more important. I would personally deslash Modest and relegate it to the AC, but it's up to QC, of course :P
  14. Harsha

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    No, you guys bring a good point. I'm taking out Modest from the set itself. Thanks!
  15. Mynism

    Mynism

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    why do you insist that much on revenge killing +2 Dnite while not even mentioning +2 Extreme Speed deals 85,5%-100,76% ?
  16. blunder

    blunder

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    Seems like a good analysis, as I had used this a lot in 4th gen... Just a few minor things to say- Starmie outspeeds SS Cloyster by 1 speed point if Timid, So that's a good reason to use Tiimid, and also put HP Grass over Trick maybe in AC for Gastrodon
  17. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    +2 and locked into outrage? The fact that if starmie gets in at 100% and nite isnt locked (or doesnt expect starmie to be scarfed and outrages) it isnt a surefire ko?
  18. Mynism

    Mynism

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    I only meant to say that he had to mention it and it was weird to emphaze a partly-true fact. I never said it wasn't able to RK
  19. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I think you mean Grass Knot.

    And Timid does make more sense in BW, what with all them new-fangled Scarfers.
  20. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    Ah, ok
  21. papita

    papita

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    I think hp grass might deserve a mention because of rotom w
  22. Harsha

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    Alright, I'll get to your comments. I see what you're saying, Mynism; it's true. I was mostly referring to bulky Dragonites and other things like that, but I need to emphasize that Dragonite needs to lack ExtremeSpeed for a surefire KO. I don't know about HP Grass / Grass Knot, but I'll let QC decide. Thanks!
  23. Danilo

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    I really don't see why this needs an analysis. It'd be much easier to just slash choice scarf on the analysis already on site. My reasoning for this is:
    • You're using the exact same moveset as the analysis already on-site
    • This set doesn't play too much differently from the set already on-site, imo. You're still spamming Hydro Pumps and using Trick to cripple Starmie's counters
    • Outspeeding things like Landorus and Terrakion is nice, but is it really worth having an extra set when someone can just expand the AC?

    This set is in no way bad, but it's probably better to just slash choice scarf since this set doesn't play too differently from the set on siteeeeeeeeeeee
  24. Harsha

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    Alright, it seems like I didn't explain the differences well enough. First off, Starmie with a Scarf has a large lack of power compared to Specs Starmie, but it kills what it needs to. Starmie with Specs cannot revenge-kill anything. They are for different slots on teams, and this is for more hyper-offensively oriented ones, because you can just sack a Pokemon while the opponent is setting up and then KO with Starmie. It works very differently from the Specs set, so I believe they shouldn't be mixed together. MikeDecIsHere did a pretty good job of outlining the reasons earlier.

    Also, you are in no situation spamming Hydro Pump. You're using the correct coverage move to beat the threat in front of you, and Hydro Pump is used less than BoltBeam.
  25. Danilo

    Danilo
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    The first part of your statement doesn't seem very relevant. Say I have a Lucario. I set up an SD and you sack one of your pokes. You bring in your Starmie set and I smack you with an ExtremeSpeed and you die. Say I have a Reuniculus. I set up a Trick Room and you sack one of your pokes. You bring in Starmie and I hit you with a Shadow Ball. Say I have a ...(I could go on and talk about things like Alakazam and Hydreigon and tons of other stuff).

    If this is true, it can also play out terribly for you on a HO team. Ho teams usually have a Deoxys-D/Azelf, and 5 fillers. You claim that Starmie is good because you can just get sack something and revenge kill the thing in front of you. While this is true, you've lost at least 2 Pokemon before you've brought in Starmie to revenge kill something(assuming u sack'd deoxys-d/azelf after they've done their job). Say I kill something my Gyarados(I'm only using Gyarados as an example of a poke that Starmie will always revenge kill), you bring in Starmie and hit me with a T-bolt. I then bring in my electric resist/immunity like Celebi or Landorus and proceed to set up on you. Although the situation I mentioned is rather narrow, it's difficult to deny that similar situations happen all the time. The Choice Specs set also faces this problem, but it can at least spam Hydro Pump until it dies, preventing your opponent from setting up. The Choice Specs set is also very good at punishing mistakes, since Hydro Pump can 2HKO mons that resist Water-Type moves.

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