Starmie [GP 0/2]

ShootingStarmie

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Overview
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With the new generation and multiple changes to our metagame, Starmie isn't as effective as it once used to be. Defog is often the more preferred method of removing hazards, and Excadrill is the prime OU offensive Rapid Spinner, leaving little room for Starmie to flourish. However, it still has great base 115 speed and amazing coverage, allowing Starmie to still be a threat, and it has access to a great ability in Analytic. However, Starmie's typing leaves it vulnerable to common attacks such as Pursuit, U-turn, and Volt Switch. Play to Starmie's good points however, and it can be a great asset.


Offensive Spinner
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name: Offensive Spinner
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin
ability: Analytic
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Moves
========

This set plays to Starmie's natural offensive capabilities. Analytic is the ability of Choice for it's incredible power boost on the switch. Hydro Pump is STAB and hits stupidly hard on the switch, thanks to the boost Analytic provides and it's awesome base power. Ice Beam provides nice coverage for Grass and Dragon types. Psychock is the main option for Starmie as it's STAB and hits Mega-Venusaur and Chansey for nice damage. Psyshock has a slim chance to OHKO Conkeldurr, which is a big threat in the metagame right now. Thunderbolt however offers more coverage, which allows Starmie to hit Water types, and creates the infamous "Bolt-beam" coverage. Finally, Rapid Spin is used as it supports the team by removing hazards.


Set Details
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The EVs are used for maximum power and speed. Surf can be used for more consistency, but overall Hydro Pump is generally better. You might think an all out attacking set could be useful, but Starmie is mainly used for it's ability to Rapid Spin. Recover can also be an option, but Starmie really needs to coverage in order to be threatening. Analytic is the preferred ability, because of the power boost it provides on the switch, allowing Starmie to 2HKO nearly everything in the tier with the right coverage move. Timid is a must, since Starmie is all about Speed, and being out speed by Keldeo, Terrakion, Latios, other top threats just isn't worth it.

Usage Tips
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This set is more suited to offensive teams that rely on Volt-turn or a late game sweeper that's weak to entry hazards (Talonflame, Volcarona, Dragonite, etc), so pairing it up with said Pokemon is a good idea. Starmie's main role of the game is to generally Rapid Spin, so make they your first priority over hitting something hard on the switch. If the removal of hazards isn't the number one priority, then generally spamming Hydro Pump is a good idea.

Team Options
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As already stated, the best partners for Starmie are powerful sweepers that are weak to entry hazards, making Volcarona, Dragonite, and Talonflame your best options. Starmie is also pretty popular on Volt turn teams for it's ability to effectively remove hazards, so good partners include Scizor. Scizor can beat all of Starmie's checks (Tyranitar, Blissey, etc), while Starmie can easily beat Scizor's checks (Heatran, Skarmory, etc).


Other Options
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A full out attacker set can be considered, as it gives you incredible coverage, but the main reason to use Starmie it's for it's ability to Rapid Spin. Choice Specs Starmie with Trick is a pretty fun set to try out, as it can cripple Chansey and Ferrothorn very nicely with a well timed Trick. The Power out put is also solid. Starmie generally prefers the ability to switch moves however. Starmie can potentially run a Reflect type set, as it beats most of Starmie's checks, like Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, but it's kinda gimmicky, and Starmie doesn't have much room to run it. Hidden Power Fire is a coverage option that an be considered for it's ability to hit Ferrothorn and Scizor for solid damage, but outside of that there's little use for it. Thunder Wave is a neat option to use on Starmie to cripple fast Pokemon like Keldeo and Latias.


Checks and Counters
========

**Pursuit Trappers**: Pursuit trappers can eliminate Starmie from the game. Tyranitar, Weavile, Bisharp, and Scizor all make for good Pursuit users.

**Special Walls**: Blissey, Chansey, and other special walls can tank anything Starme throws at them, but they can't stop Starmie from Rapid Spinning.

**Ghost types**: Ghost types stop Starmie from Spinning, so Gourgiest, Trevenent, and Aegislash can all be considered checks, and they also can hit Starmie for solid damage with their respective STAB attacks.

**Bulky Grass types**: Bulky Grass types can usually take on Starmie easily. Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss can easily stand up to Starmie if it isn't running Psyshock, while Celebi and Ferrothorn counter it regardless.
 
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Colonel M

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Bulky Starmie still works just fyi. Just it's more prone to Aegislash unfortunately.

Mention some of the perks to using Starmie over Excadrill as a spinner, too.

Also all-out offensive such as this probably could be mentioned:

- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover / Hidden Power Fire / Grass Knot

Maybe Psyshock or Psychic too since it does target some other threats a bit better. But Starmie is still pretty strong despite the SpA nerfs.
 

ShootingStarmie

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Oh yeah, I was planning to include it, but it's still a work in progress. Sorry if that was kinda misleading, but I was gonna 100% include it.
 

Epikhairz

Anything goes
natural cure should still be slashed by analytic in offensive spinner set imo. It has some merit in that you can freely switch in on Will-O-Wisp, attack, and leave fully cured, and is useful for those few defensive Fire-types such as Specially Defensive Heatran or other and other Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp.
 
You might want to look at your moves section for the Defensive Spinner set. Seems like you copied and pasted the same material from the Offensive Spinner set.
That would be understandable if they both had the same moves. Since they don't, you might want to edit that they're potential moves, mainly Surf and Thunderbolt, since neither
move is explicitly mentioned in that set.
 
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Just my opinion on Psyshock on the defensive set.

Psyshock on the defensive set is solely for Gengar and Roserade ?_? I feel Ice Beam/Thunderbolt is better. Gengar is not switching into Starmie.
Don't think Psyshock should be the first slash for the coverage move. If one needs a solid Gengar counter then Psyshock should be chosen.

4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 115-136 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- 48.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 110-132 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 246-290 (93.8 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Starmie Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 186-222 (70.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 218-260 (67.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So M-Venusaur beats defensive Starmie hands down after Giga Drain recovery.
 
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Maybe Choice sets can still be given a mention? They lost their main niche without perma rain, but Trick still screws over normal switch-ins and it makes a good revenge killer or nuke with coverage and analytic.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Just my opinion on Psyshock on the defensive set.

Psyshock on the defensive set is solely for Gengar and Roserade ?_? I feel Ice Beam/Thunderbolt is better. Gengar is not switching into Starmie.
Don't think Psyshock should be the first slash for the coverage move. If one needs a solid Gengar counter then Psyshock should be chosen.

4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 115-136 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- 48.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 110-132 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 246-290 (93.8 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Starmie Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 186-222 (70.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 218-260 (67.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So M-Venusaur beats defensive Starmie hands down after Giga Drain recovery.
edit: oh wait, nevermind you referred to the defensive set, thought you said offense.
 
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natural cure should still be slashed by analytic in offensive spinner set imo. It has some merit in that you can freely switch in on Will-O-Wisp, attack, and leave fully cured, and is useful for those few defensive Fire-types such as Specially Defensive Heatran or other and other Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp.
I agree, Natural Cure should at least get a secondary slash on the offensive set because it allows Starmie to act as a bit of a status absorber if the need arises.
 

CyclicCompound

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Not sure if this needs to be mentioned in the usage tips of the Offensive Spinner set, but Rapid Spin will not remove entry hazards if Starmie dies from Life Orb recoil. What that means is that Starmie can no longer spin if it is lower than 10% health, and if Starmie finds itself in such a situation, it's better off attacking the opponent than making a futile attempt to remove hazards.
 
Psyshock has a very slim chance to OHKO Conkeldurr. Add a little prior damage & you're golden. I think that deserves a mention.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 296-351 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
 

alexwolf

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I agree with Dice. Thunderbolt goes in 'Moves' and Psyshock stays alone on the second slot (it is your second most important move). And yeah, defensive is not viable anymore.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Venusaur: 203-242 (55.7 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Guaranteed with 1 LO recoil and rocks.

Psyshock is your best shot against M-Venusaur but you definitely don't threaten it if it's healthy. Unless Venusaur switches in, which it might do to soak up a Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, but I don't know how to add the Analytic boost to the calculator.

Edit: I like Starmie, so I'm gonna spend this lunch time calcing stuff and sharing. Use anything you find relevant however you please. I've added +1 to emulate an Analytic boost so if that's wrong, correct me.

Edit 2: all these calcs were a waste of time cuz its 1.3 not 1.5.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 253-300 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Psyshock is 2HKO on the switch, unless Azu has sitrus berry, whereas T-bolt is OHKO with rocks.

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+1 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 151-178 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 136-162 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All three moves do about 50% on the switch, none of them being 2HKOs.

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252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Mandibuzz: 213-252 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 168-200 (64.3 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 187-222 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Disgusting.

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+1 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 386-454 (59.2 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 257-304 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chance to 2HKO on the switch.

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+1 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 171+ Def Jellicent: 208-247 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 171+ Def Jellicent: 142-168 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- 72% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 205-242 (50.8 - 60%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Psyshock does not 2HKO on the switch.

---

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 172-203 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 175-207 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 238-281 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 157-187 (38.7 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Can 2HKO, guaranteed with rocks.
 
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I don't see why Psyshock when its primary target (MVenu) is usually PDef, should be Psychic over Psyshock imo.

[quote="Hibiki, post: 5212867, member: 205019"Edit: I like Starmie, so I'm gonna spend this lunch time calcing stuff and sharing. Use anything you find relevant however you please. I've added +1 to emulate an Analytic boost so if that's wrong, correct me.[/quote]

Analytic basically gives the same boost as Life Orb, so here are some calibrations on the damage output:

252 SpA Adaptability Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 194-230 (56.8 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (SAtk IVs set to 23)

If you set the SAtk IVs to 23 and give it Adaptability, you get practically the same output as a Life Orb (and by extension Analytic), so you can do that for your calculations.
 

alexwolf

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I don't see why Psyshock when its primary target (MVenu) is usually PDef, should be Psychic over Psyshock imo.

I like Starmie, so I'm gonna spend this lunch time calcing stuff and sharing. Use anything you find relevant however you please. I've added +1 to emulate an Analytic boost so if that's wrong, correct me.
Analytic basically gives the same boost as Life Orb, so here are some calibrations on the damage output:

252 SpA Adaptability Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 196-231 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 194-230 (56.8 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (SAtk IVs set to 23)

If you set the SAtk IVs to 23 and give it Adaptability, you get practically the same output as a Life Orb (and by extension Analytic), so you can do that for your calculations.
Psyshock > Psychic because it's very useful against special walls/tanks:

- 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 333-394 (51 - 60.4%)
- 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 243-289 (34.5 - 41%)
- 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 247-292 (64.3 - 76%)
- 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 296-351 (84 - 99.7%)

Psychic has some use to deal better damage against Mega Venusaur and physically defensive Rotom-W, but Psyshock is overall better.
 
All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. ShootingStarmie, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
 

Alter

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Moves
- Move the mention of Analytic down into the Set Details section. It doesn't belong here.
- Psyshock only does 26.5 - 31.5% to Chansey (~34%-40% on a switch), so I'd perhaps replace the mention with Blissey, which gets hit a lot harder.
- Give an example some of the Pokemon which Thunderbolt can hit (e.g. Slowbro, Azumarill)
Set Details
Surf can be used for more consistency, but overall Hydro Pump is generally better. You might think an all out attacking set could be useful, but Starmie is mainly used for it's ability to Rapid Spin. Recover can also be an option, but Starmie really needs to coverage in order to be threatening.
Alternate moves ("AC moves") should be explained under the "Moves" section instead of Set Details. In the Set Details, you should consider mentioning Natural Cure to be used over Analytic as, while it is not always the best option, it can be used to give a team a status absorber (which is handy for Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave). You also mentioned the all out attacker set in the OO section as well, so putting it here is unnecessary.

Usage Tips
- Explain when Starmie is best brought into the battle and what stages of the game it shines it to the best of your ability.

Team Options
- Starmie enjoys partners that can beat Ferrothorn, Chansey (as well as Blissey to an extent), and Gastrodon. The means that Terrakion can be a great teammate for it, 2hkoing or ohking all of these Pokemon.
- Bisharp can also deal with Aegislash, which can block Starmie's Rapid Spin attempts. Starmie reciprocates Bisharp's support by resisting Fire- and Fighting-type attacks.

Checks and Counters
- This needs to be updated to the new format with sections (e.g. Pursuit Trappers: Bisharp, Tyranitar, Scizor etc.). Other than that it looks fairly solid.

I'm also not too hot on the bulky rapid spin set, so I'd suggest removing it unless other QC members are particularly in favor of keeping it. If you make these changes, I can stamp this for you.
 
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base 111 speed pokemon are thundurus-i and tornadus-t. Other base 115 speed pokemon are persian, sneasel, mega houndoom, raikou, mega absol, floatzel, ambipom and azelf. purugly, mega lucario, scolipede, serperior and swoobat fall in between.

from among those, only mega houndoom, mega absol and maaaaybe raikou would justify going for the speed tie but the megas get sucker punch anyway and raikou i think is very rare.

so, does starmie really need to invest full speed? i know a few extra hp or def points hardly matter for something frail like starmie but i'd rather have that over superfluous extra speed. thundurus, then, should be the benchmark to beat.
 

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