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Starmie (Rain Dance Spinner) [QC 3/3] (Writing)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by MaestroXXVI, Jan 3, 2012.

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  1. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    Credit to X5Dragon for coming up with this set.

    QC Approvals: PK Gaming, zdrup15, Pocket

    [​IMG]
    Starmie

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance Spinner
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 4: Thunder / Thunder Wave
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


    Show Hide
    Why this deserves to be on-site

    • http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/starmie --> ctrl-f --> "rain dance" --> phrase not found
    • Starmie's great speed and movepool makes it an awesome support mon for weatherless offensive teams, much the same as Deoxys; the on-site sets don't capitalize on this as much as they could.
    • Could make a good secondary rain inducer for Drizzle teams.
    • Comes in late-game to clear a path for Cloyster/Dnite/Volc, etc. by washing away sand, sun (aka +2 spe revenge killers), hail and hazards
    • Speed and resistance to common priority means almost any free turn is a complete clearing of the field.
    • Life Orb + Rain + Thunder means easy 2HKOs on Jellicent, your most common switch-in when your opponent wants to spinblock.
    • http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454642

    Additional comments

    • Standard EV spread, Timid of course because speed is always Starmie's highest priority, really no point in any alternate EV spreads
    • Surf vs. Hydro Pump is the standard accuracy/power conundrum; obligatory mention of Scald
    • Thunder is for smacking bulky waters around, but you can also use Thunder Wave to cripple fast switchins
    • Life Orb because this set's priority is not in sticking around, its in clearing a path and providing a free switch-in (and smacking stuff around if prudent)
    • Type-resist berries are options, but you really want LO's power (see calcs below)
    • Change the last two moves according to your needs; Starmie can run TWave or Recover on a mono-attacking set, or Ice Beam (BoltBeam) or Psychic (dual STAB) for alternate coverage

    Teammates & Counters

    • Not much can switch in if rain is up, and Starmie's speed often means it'll cleave hp off even water-resists; however, some pokes still wall it even with Hydro Pump and Thunder.
    • Blissey, Chansey, Celebi, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn are your safest bets if you want to wall; none are 2HKO'd or mind a TWave. On the other hand, none are blocking Rain Dance or Rapid Spin (Starmie can't touch Gastro, and Ferro pseudo-blocks)
    • Bulkier grass types can tank a hit and OHKO back
    • Virizion (giga drain), Latias and bulky Nite can recover off damage, but greatly fear TWave
    • Jolteon and Shadow Ball Zam outspeed and OHKO if they don't switch in on a rain-boosted Surf/Hydro Pump
    • Scarfed pokes, especially physically-based ones, usually don't have trouble revenging Starmie
    • Don't ask what your teammates can do for Starmie, ask what it can do for them; any set-up sweeper will appreciate the free turn that comes with Starmie getting revenged by a scarfer, as well as the lack of passive damage switching in and during play (focus sash is cool again!)
    • Sash Cloyster stands out as the ideal partner: weak to SR, an awesome setup move that kills all its special bulk (and therefore wont tank a special hit without a sash), and can even get a power boost out of rain

    Calcs (Don't underestimate Rain + LO):

    Hydro Pump:
    Tyranitar (OU Specially Defensive [Sand Stream]): 50.49 - 59.9% (2HKO after SR) (clean OHKO in rain)
    Ninetales (OU Specially Defensive [Drought]): 48.57 - 58.28% (2HKO after SR) (clean OHKO in rain)
    Scizor (OU Choice Band): 111.37 - 131.19% (clean OHKO) (Surf OHKOs after SR)
    Rotom-W (OU Defensive): 55.76 - 65.79% (clean 2HKO)
    Jirachi (OU Specially Defensive): 57.42 - 67.82% (clean 2HKO) (surf has a good chance of 2HKO)
    Breloom (OU Bulk Up): 50.93 - 60% (good chance of 2HKO after SR and Poison Heal)
    Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance): 48.91 - 57.58% (2HKO after SR)
    Latios (OU Choice): 48.34 - 56.95% (2HKO after SR)
    Thunder:
    Jellicent (OU Utility Counter): 67.49 - 79.9% (clean 2HKO)
    Tentacruel (OU Toxic Spikes): 67.03 - 79.12% (clean 2HKO)
    Rotom-W (OU Choice): 55.37 - 65.28% (clean 2HKO)
    Politoed (OU Choice Specs): 87.85 - 104.04% (OHKO after SR)​
  2. corrupt vergil

    corrupt vergil

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    why isnt recover on the moves, it will help starmie to stay a bit longer and therefore, it will support the team much longer. in fact, i think you should slash it with rapid spin, mostly because rapid spin isnt useful in that set in my opinion =/

    why? because its not that necessery on a pokemon that changes the weather in order to support its team and its only a bonus support

    so the verdict is:
    you should give recover a mention, i think that is a must
  3. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Starmie is OU's best rapid spinner and for HO teams removing rocks from the fields is a must. And if you look at the ev spread the emphasis is on speed to remove rocks and chabge weather and SPA for abusing rain dance and hitting hard with LO equipped so having recover is a bit contradictory. The set your proposing, a rain version of sunny day venasaur could be mentioned be if it doesn't have rs then maybe you could post another htread explaining the benefits if the set with proper cacls, etc.

    As for rain dance I used it a lot and it has often led me to many victories, thanks to the fact most Weather are built on weather abusing abilities/resistances so take that away and they are left with a bunch of pokemons that either have low acc moves, OKish base attacks, laughable base speeds and normal weaknesses in case of Drought/Drizzle. Even if you manage to dance infront of a weather inducer and they kill you, it often means a free set-up turn because they have to switch twice to activate weather.
  4. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    Starmie already has sets with recover on its BW page, and by nature it's an offensive spinner, nota defensive one; if you want something thatll stick around, youre better off going with tentacruel or forry, not starmie
  5. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

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    Then what's the point of using Starmie as a spinner and slashing Thunder Wave, even? Rain Dance is the crux of this set -- and Starmie does a great job of taking advantage of it -- so I don't see the harm in slashing Recover with Rapid Spin or Thunder, and Leftovers with Life Orb. There are many Pokemon, particularly Dragonite, Lati@s, and Breloom, who simply do not give a fuck about an Ice Beam-less Starmie, causing it to switch out constantly. Entry hazards and Life Orb recoil will eventually take their toll on Starmie, making options that will lengthen its longevity far more useful than... killing a Politoed, Tentacruel, or Jellicent dumb enough to switch right into a Starmie that just used Rain Dance...? Recover won't make this set defensive; if that's the case, then things such as LO + Recover Latios, MixMence, and LO Starmie should be considered "defensive" as well.
  6. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    congrats to X5Dragon for coming up with this, but I don't really see why it deserves it's own set. I read the rmt and I see rain dance works well, but it should just be slashed into the spin set imo.
  7. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    TWave was X5Dragon's slash, so youll have to ask him why he put it there.


    It's hard to explain how X5 made this set work. It wasn't meant to stick around, it wasnt meant to switch in more than once or twice; it was supposed to clear the field and get KOd, nothing more. Actual attacks would really only be used when neither of Starmie's support moves were needed (read: when facing non-weather HO teams post-Deoxys) or if Starmie could pull off a late-game sweep. And about passive damage eventually taking its toll - that's the point! This is a suicide support Starmie. It is supposed to do its job, then faint. It does that job ridiculously well, and it faints quite easily, too. Then one of your other pokes takes advantage of the clear field and free turn you just gave it to smash a gaping hole in your opponent's team. (And the Thunder calcs are just to show that OU's bulky waters don't wall Starmie like they normally do; perhaps you or your opponent has a Politoed and he has no reason to assume your Starmie runs Thunder over TBolt until you've cleaved half his bulky water's HP off).

    Not to mention, those Hydro Pump calcs are there for a reason...if rain is up, you're 2HKOing Nite, Loom, and Latios after rocks, resistances be damned. Latias walls you, but Water/Electric coverage off base 100 SAtk can really only take you so far...


    Those sets want to stick around. This Starmie does not. I do suppose Recover is an option, but in that case why not just throw Rain Dance in AC somewhere on-site? This set works differently, has a different purpose, and can still be considered a success even if averages less than half a KO per game, because it doesn't want KOs. That's not its job.


    EDIT:
    Or that, with a mention of Thunder and how it plays somewhat differently. Even if this set gets rejected, I want to see Rain Dance on-site and Thunder to get more than a passing mention.
  8. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    I would like to say that I used this set with a HO team, meaning I wanted as much offensive pokemons as I can get (read: 5 mons) and at the same time not forgetting to have a mon that can spin rocks and wash away weather to leave weather teams naked and exposed, literally. It's a crime not to mention a set with rain dance on it.

    I would also like to remind our gamers here that Starmie will most likely lose more than 50% against any powerful, neutral STAB and with 299 SPA, it ain't killing much without LO. Also the concept of a LO pokemon with it's health slowing eating away before it dies is neither new or blasphemous and examples of that are too many to count.

    That said, the other two moveslots can be played around according to your needs. I want from Boltbeam to Water Psychic to Icepsych to Waterbolt to Waterwave. The point is since you are using Rain Dance to change the weather, you might as well carry at least one rain abusing move:


    [​IMG]
    Starmie

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance Spinner
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump/Thunder
    move 4: Thunder / Thunder Wave/Psychic/Ice Beam/Hydro Pump
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
  9. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Offensive Pokemon who set up weather always appreciated(Sunny Day Heatran and Venusaur attest to this). De-slash Thunder wave and mention in AC. I'd also mention recover in AC, I don't see the harm.

    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  10. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    Done, and thanks!

    Im not sure if this is a common thing to do but ive got all the changes to the skeleton in green
  11. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    Is there any actual merit to a Timid, 252 Spe spread on Starmie aside from running a tie against opposing Starmie? If Rain Dance is your primary option against other Starmie, assuming they are both sent out at the same time, do you risk not setting up Rain Dance and going for an inaccurate Thunder? I think that this Starmie loses the standard nearly all the time if they are going head-to-head.
    As well as this, there are no other 115'ers in OU. Azelf fell to UU and the only other one worth thinking about is Raikou, who also beats you pretty much all the time. Tornadus is base 111, and I reckon perhaps taking a little out of speed (enough to hit 353 which is what Max positive Tornadus is), and perhaps making it so that you can switch into Stealth Rock twice without Life Orb recoil? After all, Starmie's probably going to be switching in to set up Rain and Rapid Spin more than once, I would think.
  12. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    What do you mean, switch into stealth rock twice?
    And the 28 evs you'd save by dropping down to outspeed tornadus are pretty pointless...you're getting an extra 7 hp, big deal...and yes, maxing out is worth it, the speed tie can matter, and youd probably prefer not getting revenged by modest scarftoed (which you need like 240 spe to do, and at that point it really gets pointless to not max out your speed. Starmies speed is its biggest asset, take advantage of that.
  13. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    On this topic, if you're only aiming to outspeed Tornadus at 354 Speed, then you can plop those remaining 32 EV's into HP to hit 269 HP, which is a nice Life Orb number (making it 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe). If you want to outspeed Scrafty after a Dragon Dance, that requires 355 Speed, a spread of 32 HP / 248 SpA / 228 Spe can be used to keep that Life Orb number and make Starmie last a teenie bit longer while drowning that +1 Scrafty.
  14. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    The extra HP EVs are useless most of the time regardless, and the lowered Speed will prove inconvenient in sacrifice. Just maximize Speed altogether so at least you know Starmie has a chance against opposing Starmie and Raikou.
  15. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    Seriously, 7 extra HP will not make or break a pokemon. Maxing out speed is the way to go.
  16. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    This Starmie is very successful. There is no other options for a Rapid Spinner thats offensive in HO, and, X5Dragon aimed at washing weather away. With Rain Dance, his Starmie's job is simply, to take out weather. A lot of people see no weather inducer, and they think they can sacrifice their weather lead if they need to with no loss whatsoever, which makes this set even more effective. Starmie can run more speed ev's depening on the team, wouldn't you think? If your team can handle something like Tornadus [but, in all honesty, X5Dragon has a hard time against those], then there is no need to run the extra speed ev's no? X5Dragon aims at running at least one abusive attack in rain on Starmie to not only eliminate extra threats, but to make Starmie more powerful in general, along with his team, adding on to his offensive stradegy. Starmie plays spinner/rain dance/fodder, becauase it doesn't need to live, it simply doesn't need to KO threats. In all honesty, this Starmie stuggles against other Starmie, and the usual things it can take out, but this is a Support Starmie, it doesn't need to KO, it needs to spin/rain dance. Although, in this case, I think Leftovers needs a mention, as, since its going to die anyways, why not just give it some HP boost so it can get in more Rapid Spins? Just my two sense, I personally think Starmie is a good choice, as for X5Dragon's team in general, I rated it and it is very solid. Starmie is actually the glue to his team, as rocks would kill him, and sand teams are a problem, but this starmie is his answer. Its creative, and its probably how he obtained #1 on the server, I am all for this Starmie set being approved, good job X5Dragon!
  17. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Thanks Shurtugal ^_^

    Anyway since I don't think anyone else has any more suggestions I think we should move on with it, eh? Also a demonstration of how rain dance as an anti-weather move can turn a match upside down:

    Show Hide
    Battle between X5Dragon - DW and [TBA]WazupGurl started!

    Tier: Dream World OU
    Mode: Singles
    Variation: +12, -20
    Rule: Rated
    Rule: Sleep Clause
    Rule: Species Clause
    Rule: Wifi Battle

    Your team: Breloom / Volcarona / Dragonite / Chandelure / Scizor / Starmie
    Opponent's team: Genesect / Keldeo / Tyranitar / Breloom / Excadrill / Chandelure

    X5Dragon - DW sent out Volcarona!
    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Tyranitar!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!

    Start of turn 1!
    Volcarona used Quiver Dance!
    Volcarona's Sp. Att. rose!
    Volcarona's Sp. Def. rose!
    Volcarona's Speed rose!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar used Stealth Rock!
    Pointed stones float in the air around X5Dragon - DW's team!

    The sandstorm rages!
    Volcarona is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    HiddeN is watching the battle.
    APimpNamedSlickback is watching the battle.

    Start of turn 2!
    Volcarona used Bug Buzz!
    It's super effective!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar lost 68% of its health!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar used Payback!
    Volcarona lost 205 HP! (65% of its health)

    The sandstorm rages!
    Volcarona is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    HiddeN stopped watching the battle.

    Start of turn 3!
    Volcarona used Bug Buzz!
    It's super effective!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar lost 31% of its health!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar fainted!

    The sandstorm rages!
    Volcarona is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Excadrill!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill is floating on a balloon!

    Start of turn 4!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill used Frustration!
    Volcarona lost 50 HP! (16% of its health)
    Volcarona fainted!

    The sandstorm rages!
    X5Dragon - DW sent out Breloom!
    Pointed stones dug into Breloom!

    Start of turn 5!
    [TBA]WazupGurl called Excadrill back!
    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Chandelure!

    Breloom used Mach Punch!
    It had no effect!

    The sandstorm rages!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Breloom is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    APimpNamedSlickback stopped watching the battle.

    Start of turn 6!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure used Psychic!
    It's super effective!
    Breloom lost 230 HP! (87% of its health)
    Breloom fainted!

    The sandstorm rages!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    X5Dragon - DW sent out Starmie!
    Pointed stones dug into Starmie!

    Start of turn 7!
    [TBA]WazupGurl called Chandelure back!
    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Keldeo!

    Starmie used Rain Dance!
    It started to rain!

    Rain continues to fall!

    Start of turn 8!
    Starmie used Rapid Spin!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo lost 5% of its health!
    Starmie blew away Stealth Rock!
    Starmie is hurt by its Life Orb!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo used Surf!
    It's not very effective...
    Starmie lost 153 HP! (58% of its health)

    Rain continues to fall!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 9!
    Starmie used Psychic!
    It's super effective!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo lost 100% of its health!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo fainted!
    Starmie is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Rain continues to fall!
    HiddeN is watching the battle.
    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Breloom!

    Odf is watching the battle.

    Start of turn 10!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom used Mach Punch!
    It's not very effective...
    Starmie lost 25 HP! (9% of its health)
    Starmie fainted!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Rain continues to fall!
    X5Dragon - DW sent out Nobolite! (Dragonite)

    Start of turn 11!
    Nobolite used Dragon Dance!
    Nobolite's Attack rose!
    Nobolite's Speed rose!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom used Spore!
    Nobolite fell asleep!
    Nobolite ate its Lum Berry!
    Nobolite's status cleared!

    The rain stopped!

    Start of turn 12!
    Nobolite used Outrage!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom lost 90% of its health!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom fainted!

    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Genesect!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect's Download activates!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect's Attack rose!

    Start of turn 13!
    Nobolite used Outrage!
    It's not very effective...
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect lost 67% of its health!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect used Ice Beam!
    It's super effective!
    Nobolite lost 216 HP! (66% of its health)

    Start of turn 14!
    Nobolite used Outrage!
    It's not very effective...
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect lost 32% of its health!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect fainted!
    Nobolite calmed down!
    Nobolite became confused!

    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Excadrill!

    [TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill is floating on a balloon!

    Start of turn 15!
    Nobolite is confused!
    Nobolite used Fire Punch!
    It's super effective!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill lost 100% of its health!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill fainted!

    [TBA]WazupGurl sent out Chandelure!

    Start of turn 16!
    Nobolite is confused!
    Nobolite used Outrage!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure lost 87% of its health!
    [TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure fainted!

    X5Dragon - DW won the battle!
    X5Dragon - DW: gg
    [TBA]WazupGurl: GOOD FUCKING GAME

    -------------
  18. Jazz

    Jazz

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    ^^^ good example
  19. zdrup15

    zdrup15
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    Unslash Thunder Wave, an AC mention is enough for it. Other than that:

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  20. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    A few changes:

    • Remove the AC mention of Scald
    • Specify Type-Resist berries as Colbur Berry to protect Starmie from Pursuit
    • Mention Teammates that deals with Starmie's counters (ie. Conkeldurr / Breloom to deal with Chansey, Blissey, and Gastrodon; Volcarona or Latios to deal with Celebi).

    Make those changes, and this analysis is good-to-go!

    QC Approved (3/3)
  21. Mijzelffan

    Mijzelffan

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    No mention of Swift Swimmers in Teammates?
  22. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    This is not really meant for Swift Swim teams, but to back up Drizzle teams instead, I think. Either way, I guess a sentence mentioning Swift Swimmers could be helpful
  23. MaestroXXVI

    MaestroXXVI

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    Huh, I take a break for a week and come back to find my set has been approved!

    Twave was already deslashed, but ill get pocket's changes sorted out asap and get to writing this thing

    Thanks guys
  24. Starm

    Starm

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    I love this set.

    You can maybe write Life Orb / Leftovers.
  25. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    No mention of damp rock anywhere? I guess this is about eliminating opposing weather but if you're backing rain teams them I guess it makes sense...
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