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Starmie (Ubers) [QC 2/3] MM2 has this

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Musharna, Sep 21, 2013.

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  1. Musharna

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    [Overview]

    • Should be used as an Offensive Rapid Spinner in rain.
    • Has creditable Wallbreaking potential and the ability to Rapid Spin.
    • Competition in Kabutops in rain, but it kills Giratina and hits like a truck.
    • Competition in Palkia as a wallbreaker, but has Rapid Spin to make up for it.
    • Horrible defenses makes switching it in difficult, and it NEEDS rain to score KOs.

    [Set]
    name: Analytic
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Psyshock / Thunder
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    ability: Analytic
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    • Rapid Spin is what makes the set, spinning hazards is good
    • Hydro Pump is hurts in the rain, it outdamages a Lustrous Orb Palkia's Hydro Pump (when taking into consideration Analytic) OHKOs Ghostarc after SR
    • Ice Beam 2HKOs phys def Tina and does 70% min with 2 hit to spdef tina and 66% min to subshuffler with anal beam. It also KOs a tina-o that came in on anal pump and tries to dragon tail instead of sneak
    • Psyshock smashes Spdef ogre, gastrodon, and Chansey switchins
    • Thunder can be used to easily 2HKO physdef ogre and to potentially OHKo arc water but you do a tad less to stuff like Palkia as well as loss to gastro, chansey and abomasnow

    [Additional Comments]

    • Rain or bust, scarf kyogre is cool cause starmie lures out and weakens water resists while spins hazards to keep ogre's spouts healthy
    • U-turn/ volt switch to get Starmie in, benefit is mutual as no hazards means more volt switch spam
    • ferrothorn is annoying but it can only switch into pump once so pack something like fight arc that can force it out quick
    • Tina-O's sneak will mean you can't beat it the first time it comes in so its good to have something that can handle him too in case you don't feel confident enough to call out his dragon tail with beam
    • Genesect will come in everytime you kill something and U-turn which is annoying so pack bug resists

    [Other Options]

    • Blizzard OHKOs subshuffler after SR and can 2HKO spdef tina but it misses
    • surf doesn't miss but also doesn't kill
    • recover to heal off passive damage but it requires prediction, wastes the free turn you give starmie, and you lose coverage

    [Checks and Counters]

    -Spdef Tina and Ferrothorn are the two best switchins as they can survive his attacks and dick rapid spin
    -Tina-O with shadow sneak is also a good answer as it can take at least one beam and pick it off easily with sneak
    -outside of rain, ghost arceus is a solid check
    -defensive dialga can tank his attacks while scaring it out with Draco and replacing SR
    -arc water and latias are hard counters but they can't block spin
    -Gastro and chansey hard counter Thunder variants but still can't spin block
    -arceus-grass and arc dragon don't take TOO much from Ice beam while they outspeed and KO
    -physdef kyogre sorta checks psyshock variants
    -Abomasnow can tank Thunder Starmie's moves easily and robs it of rain while hail stacks on extra passive damage
    -anything faster can pretty much kill starmie without trying
    -sun ruins pump and sand takes away some power and stacks on extra passive damage

    Okay this is fixed up and ready for more QC checks
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2013
  2. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2
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    This should be in bullet point form, as you don't have any QC checks. You need two QC checks before this should be written.
    EDIT: There needs to be a section for other options and change the Comments sectoin to set comments.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  3. Musharna

    Musharna

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    My apologies, thank you for informing me. I'll edit ASAP.
  4. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    I don't see Starmie having any significant niche. Speed and natural cure are not good enough, especially when it cannot switch into anything. It cannot threaten any of the spinblockers significantly, and two of them threaten it. And it certainly is not suitable for stall; it has no longevity, no bulk, and cannot provide significant support (beyond Rapid Spin) or offensive presence.

    Tentacruel has superior bulk, longevity and Toxic Spikes, while also being able to absorb Toxic Spikes when it cannot spin. It is also viable outside of rain teams.

    Kabutops has far better speed and more power in rain, making it a superior cleaner that can also help to check Extremekiller Arceus.

    Cloyster can threaten the spinblockers better than any other spinner, has access to Spikes/Toxic Spikes and has a lot of utility with Icicle Spear breaking Focus Sash, Multiscale, Substitutes, etc.

    I just do not see what it has where it isn't outclassed by one of the above. Rapid Spin is the only thing it really has going for it (the offensive presence is underwhelming for the tier), and it cannot even do that particularly effectively since it struggles with the spinblockers.
  5. Musharna

    Musharna

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    Every one of those Pokemon has flaws; Cloyster has little longevity, even compared to Starmie AND it is weak to Stealth Rock. Let's not forget that it is slow, and if it uses Shell Smash, it'll be dead soon. Kabutops is far more reliant on rain then Starmie. Also, Starmie has the ability to switch in to SOME stuff, whereas Kabutops dies quickly; especially with a Life Orb. Tentacruel is definitely a better choice, but that does not mean Starmie is useless. It's a 'Victreebel Venusaur' case, Venusaur is totally better than Victreebel, yet there are a few advantages Victreebel posseses. Similarly, Starmie is naturally faster, and that's key. Not only that, but with a good offensive movepool and better Special Attack, whilst it won't be killing Giratina-O and stuff, it can at least put a pretty good dent in it, which opens it up to being KOd by something else.

    I'm not saying Starmie is better than any of those 3 spinners. But it's sort of a 'jack of all trades' of a spinner. It's got the 2nd best bulk, the 2nd best attacking prowess, the best speed and the ability to absorb status. In my opinion, it can be used in Ubers and at least deserves an article to reflect that.
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 273-322 (54.27 - 64.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 211-250 (41.94 - 49.7%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 205-242 (40.75 - 48.11%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 159-187 (31.61 - 37.17%) -- 94.58% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost in rain: 387-458 (87.16 - 103.15%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 164 HP / 4 SpD Giratina-O: 322-380 (66.8 - 78.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    The reason why I put Modest is cause even with a neutral nature Starmie outspeeds Palkia. (just barely hits 329) This really isn't much to write home about but it's still interesting to see just how well it can actually do against the spin blockers. So I wouldn't write it off just yet. (however you shouldn't have written the full thing up already)
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  7. Musharna

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    My apologies, friend. I shall Bullet Point it whenever I can.
    Adding the Life Orb is very interesting and makes Recover more useful. Not only that but...
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal in rain: 274-324 (71.91 - 85.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    That's pretty impressive, and if said Arceus is holding a Life Orb, it won't be playing for very long. As mentioned before, my apologies for my 'rushed writing', I'll bullet point ASAP (it's my first analysis after all).
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    My initial problem with this is that Starmie NEEDS Rain in order to really be a worthwhile spinner (otherwise Ghost Arceus screws it up) and Ho-Oh, the mon who is the most desperate to get rid of SR, is typically found on Sun teams.
  9. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Recover is useless on Starmie. Most neutral hits effortlessly 2HKO it, if not flat out OHKOing it.

    I also don't like the fact that it absolutely needs rain and struggles immensely with Ferrothorn, one of the most used hazard setters and a Pokemon which already gives rain teams hell as it is.
  10. Musharna

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    ^Kabutops and Tentacruel face similar flaws. Yes, Kabutops has Low Kick for Ferrothorn, but to compensate for that, it becomes utterly useless outside of Rain. In one turn, Kabutops can go from demolishing an entire team to chicken fodder. Tentacruel is fine out of rain, but like Starmie, struggles against Ferrothorn.
    Still bullet pointing it, apologies for the delay.
  11. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Only set I'm ever going to accept is

    [SET]
    name: Analytic
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder / Trick
    item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
    nature: Modest
    ability: Analytic
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    AC: Thunder, Psyshock, Blizzard (fuk u shrang) and Scald. Timid goes in AC too.

    As Melee said you don't need Timid. Modest hits 329 which outspeeds Palkia and friends which is just what it needs. With Analytic it's also better to be a bit slower, not like Starmie could tank any hits.

    I have brought this set up multiple times on IRC but never actually tested it. Here are the relevant calcs (you absolutely most definitely need rain support):

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost in rain: 448-528 (100.9 - 118.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 164 HP / 4 SpD Giratina-O: 370-436 (76.76 - 90.45%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 316-372 (62.82 - 73.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2HKOs on the switch)

    Fastest spinner doesn't mean viable. Will come back with results after tests or further discussion with QC.

    EDIT: Editted with some changes as LO is slightly better thanks to immediate threat of spin and just about same power (mostly like 12% off, which is SR)
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
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  12. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    The problem I have with this is essentially the same as Melee Mewtwo; how does rain offense justify using a frail offensive spinner (unless it has great utility otherwise)? Rain offense can generally be alright without a spinner, assuming it has good offensive presence and multiple Pokemon that can hurt Ferrothorn a lot, as well as avoiding SR weak Pokemon (but Rayquaza is really the only one rain offense would really want) and packing Levitate. And offense is the only playstyle that can justify a frail spinner (since spinners that stick around and can take hits fit better on more balanced/stally teams), and as has been pointed out several times, Starmie needs rain.

    So it serves as a spinner for one of the playstyles least in need of one, and outside of that is a relatively fast all-out attacker for rain (in which role it is easily outclassed). I just feel like its use cannot be justified outside of Rapid Spin, and Rapid Spin is not a good enough reason to use something in rain offense.
  13. Melee Mewtwo

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    252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 161-191 (45.73 - 54.26%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 125-147 (35.51 - 41.76%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    Show Hide

    252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 168-199 (47.72 - 56.53%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 129-152 (36.64 - 43.18%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    80%(83%) min to Ferrothorn is actually pretty respectable as it forces the thing to stay healthy if it wants to switch into Starmie. It does suck that Starmie can't spin on such a pesky spike setter but it's still nice that he can't come in and Spike on Starmie. There's still the issue of a niche spinner being locked into a single play style but that isn't bad enough to deny it an analysis. I'm still going to test it before approving but, hey, something like Tornadus/Thundurus would like this and it also anti leads Deo S and A (go go psychic type).


    Edit: Also, please read this thread and use it to setup this analysis. I know it's long but you really got to know this stuff as it makes it a lot easier for the QC process when the analysis is clean and by the book.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
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  14. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I pretty much agree with all of this. I might give it a quick test later today, but I'm not hopeful.

    EDIT: Yeah Starmie was really meh. Every time I was using it, I was wishing I used Kabutops instead

    QC REJECTED 1/3
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
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  15. Dice

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    qc rejected 2/3
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  16. Melee Mewtwo

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    I gimped the Ferrothorn calcs

    [13:35] %Melee Mewtwo: 252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 113-134 (32.1 - 38.06%) -- 1.03% chance to 3HKO
    [13:35] %Melee Mewtwo: 252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 148-175 (42.04 - 49.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    76% min is still pretty good imo

    [13:35] %Melee Mewtwo: 252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 127-150 (36.07 - 42.61%) -- 95.97% chance to 3HKO

    Outdamages two of Lustkia's pumps


    Edit: Holy fuck this thing hits so damn hard, it's a pain to switch into. I'll pass this but you need to put up the LO set (I don't think the specs set is viable it's just forcing you to predict a lot more than you need to and not letting you spin as easy) and you also need to put this in the proper bullet format.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2013
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  17. Musharna

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    "Edit: Holy fuck this thing hits so damn hard, it's a pain to switch into. I'll pass this but you need to put up the LO set (I don't think the specs set is viable it's just forcing you to predict a lot more than you need to and not letting you spin as easy) and you also need to put this in the proper bullet format."

    Edited it for the Bullet Points. Specs isn't really an option to be honest, but I will put it in as an other option. Specs Starmie can 2HKO Multiscale Lugia with Hydro Pump in Rain after Stealth Rocks, Multiscale. That's something worth noting. I kinda wish I put the LO set up first to avoid those rejections, sorry for not listening to you guys and again, my humble apologies for the wrong font, it IS my first time doing this, I should have paid attention to the guide.
  18. Melee Mewtwo

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    Ah I don't have the time to go into detail about this, atm (but I could be lying, we'll see), however it's nice to see that you got this in the right format. One last detail you need to address is the set itself, just copy and paste the following:

    [SET]
    name: Analytic
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder / Psyshock
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    ability: Analytic
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Also, there's still some content I want to go over with you. It's easiest for me to discuss this over IRC so if you ever have the time just click the #Ubers link in my signature and check if I'm on. (otherwise I'll handle this via forums nbd)
  19. Melee Mewtwo

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    For the counters section you should have (in this order)
    -Spdef Tina and Ferrothorn are the two best switchins as they can survive his attacks and dick rapid spin
    -Tina-O with shadow sneak is also a good answer as it can take at least one beam and pick it off easily with sneak
    -outside of rain, ghost arceus is a solid check
    -defensive dialga can tank his attacks while scaring it out with Draco and replacing SR
    -arc water and latias are hard counters but they can't block spin
    -Gastro and chansey hard counter Thunder variants but still can't spin block
    -arceus-grass and arc dragon don't take TOO much from Ice beam while they outspeed and KO
    -physdef kyogre sorta checks psyshock variants
    -Abomasnow can tank Thunder Starmie's moves easily and robs it of rain while hail stacks on extra passive damage
    -anything faster can pretty much kill starmie without trying
    -sun ruins pump and sand takes away some power and stacks on extra passive damage

    To be honest, I'm considering making Psyshock first slash but don't change that yet. As for the rest we'll continue to talk about it over IRC.

    Edit: Go ahead and make Psyshock first slash, the difference is minor but it's still nice to hit Palkia a tad harder and have a real shot at Chansey and Gastro. (although you lose out on Arc wter)
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  20. Musharna

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    To be fair, Arceus-Water isn't nearly as common as Blissey or Palkia, so it's fine.
  21. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    QC Approved 1/3

    This thing is so deadly. You literally can't switch out to your spinblocker because it would get owned. This thing isn't like any other spinner; Cloyster needs to have Focus Sash intact and get up a Shell Smash to spin effectively, Kabutops can be beatean by all three spinblockers, and Tentacruel cannot beat the spinblockers directly in order to spin. This thing plays as a nuke and puts gigantic amounts of pressure on your foe: the risk of a Rapid Spin AND getting owned by something is always there. Double the risk, double your chance to win.

    Just ask Melee Mewtwo his Starmie team is annoying af
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  22. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I don't want to approve before the content is fixed but musharna hasn't been on in like a week and he didn't implement my C&C. :(
  23. trickroom

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    I tried Starmie before, and to be honest, it was horrible. Most of the time, Starmie either just launched an attack, and die next turn or ended up as fodder. Modest Analytic Hydro Pump is very powerful but is it really worth using this over something more important such as Kabutops. Yeah Thunder and Ice Beam are cool moves, but base 100 SpA isn't cool at all. You can't switch in any Ghost-types into Starmie but what's more annoying is how are you getting Starmie into battle? Only careful predictions, as any decently powerful attack will finish you. You can come in on Forretress without Volt Switch, Blissey, Skarmory and a few other weak pokemon like Lugia but that's it.

    Starmie's typing also isn't amazing to be honest, you get to beat Fightceus with Psyshock one-on-one which is fine but +1 Judgment 2HKOes you. Stacking that Thunder weakness sucks and shrang/blue jay already mentioned those anyway.

    Timid nature is needed to outrun Garchomp, Latias, Latios and some Arceus who don't run max Speed, still deserves a mention. Outrunning them can let you pick off a weakened Latios or things like Arceus with Hydro Pump. I didn't play for a while so I won't reject this yet.
  24. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I use mostly U-Turn/Volt Switch to get Starmie in or very careful switching. The former fits in nice with Starmie since it spins away hazards letting you abuse those moves more often.

    I also feel like the Kabutops comparison is kinda unfair. Kabutops has pretty much an equally hard time switching in and he gets boned by the Tinas as well as Groudon making it harder for him to spin. At least Starmie keeps it's strong speed and buttfucks all the Ghosts cept spdef tina who still takes a truckload. (and you'll only see him on stall which Starmie is very dangerous against)

    Yeah, it's not incredible and it's pretty niche but I think that it can do what it's meant to do well enough to be worth an analysis. (really the big problem is getting the thing in, once that's done it can accomplish some sexy feats)

    (also, Timid sux cause you miss the OHKO on Ghostarc which what gives Starmie its niche)
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  25. Son Gohan

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    Ive tried using a starmie in ubers. It really is not that good. It has good typing to handle standard mewtwo but it is almost complete garbage in a tier riddled with powerful attackers that outspeed it.
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