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Voting Stat Boosts

Discussion in 'Policy Center' started by Its_A_Random, Apr 10, 2013.

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  1. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    Please do not post here unless you are a Council Member or Deck Knight. Anyone else who posts here WILL be infracted. Thank you.

    Stat Boosts

    Well, a bunch of arguments later, and... Well, we are finally going to have stat boosters in a vote. Here are the mechanics at the moment...
    [box]Stat Changing Moves:

    Stat boosters/drops will work exactly as they do in-game, boosting as many stages as is stated in the attack. +2 and +3 Stat boosts always last for at least two actions after use, and +1/+1 boosts always last for four actions from +0, so strategic placement of stat boosters is a skill you can utilize in battle. During the third action of a round (after the damage is calculated and applied to the opponent), whatever boost/drop a Pokemon has will be moved towards a zero stage boost, and any boosts/drops they would get from their 3rd action are moved forward to apply to the next round. Single stage boosters/drops will be balanced by locking the boost rate in for the round, e.g. if you Howl once, you will not lose the +1 boost at the end of the round, it will carry over to the next round.

    The actual impact on damage is as follows:

    Each stage (+1/+2 etc.) adds/subtracts 1.75 damage from the final calculated damage. This is applied before any final rounding of the numbers. Below is a reference for how much damage to add/subtract for each stage.

    Code:
    Stage  Boost     Speed (100 Base)
    +6     +10.50    1050
    +5     +08.75    0875
    +4     +07.00    0700 
    +3     +05.25    0525
    +2     +03.50    0350
    +1     +01.75    0175
    +0     +00.00    0100
    -1     -01.75    0057
    -2     -03.50    0028
    -3     -05.25    0019
    -4     -07.00    0014
    -5     -08.75    0011
    -6     -10.50    0009
    
    Calculating Speed Boosters:

    For Speed, each of these acts as a multiplier on Base Speed for positive values, and a divisor on negative values (no boosts uses the regular Base Speed). Ex: A Pokemon with 100 Spe at +1 has 175 Spe, and the same Pokemon at -1 has 57 Spe. Always Truncate the Speed. This makes Speed Boosters and droppers about equivalent to how they act on actual speeds in the cartridge, even though the values are increased.


    General Rules:

    • Boosts only ever reset +1 or -1 toward 0 at the end of a round.
    • +1 Stat Boosts/Drops received from non-damaging moves (Meditate, Leer, etc.) have that stat maintained at the end of the round in which they were used. To continue to lock the stat for future rounds, the moves must be used again in those rounds, otherwise they will begin to decrement as normal. Otherwise, these are treated the same as the +1/+1 Stat Boosts/Drops as noted below. Moves treated this way have the phrase "This move locks its changed stat for the round within which it was used." in their Data Audit thread description.
    • +2 and +3 Stat Boosts/Drops (Swords Dance, Tail Glow, etc.) and +2 or +3 Boosting/Dropping components of other moves (Shift Gear's Speed boost, etc.) changed from 0 last for at least 2 actions after the usage action before being prone to resetting toward 0.
    • +1/+1 Stat Boosts/Drops (Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, Bulk Up, etc.) and +1 Stat Boosts/Drops with Damage (Charge, Close Combat, Low Sweep, etc.) changed from 0 last for at least 4 actions after the usage action before being prone to resetting toward 0.
    • The action counts above do not include the action taken to activate the boosting or dropping move itself.
    Examples:

    Zangoose with Swords Dance and Hone Claws
    Zangoose Example (open)
    Slash ~ Fury Swipes ~ Swords Dance

    Zangoose will have no stat boosts at the time of either Slash. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the end of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.

    Slash ~ Swords Dance ~ Fury Swipes

    At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have no boosts. At the time of Fury Swipes, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the end of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.

    Slash ~ Fury Swipes ~ Hone Claws

    At the time of Slash and Fury Swipes, Zangoose will have no boosts. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the next round, Zangoose will still have +1 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have no boosts again.

    Slash ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance


    Zangoose will have no boosts at the time of Slash. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +4 Attack. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +3 Attack.

    Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance ~ Slash

    At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +4 Attack. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +2 Attack.

    Hone Claws ~ Slash ~ Swords Dance

    At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +1 Attack & Accuracy. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +2 Attack.

    Swords Dance ~ Slash ~ Hone Claws

    At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +2 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.

    Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance

    At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +5 Attack.

    Swords Dance ~ Hone Claws ~ Slash

    At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +3 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack & +1 Accuracy. At the end of the round after that, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.
    Toxicroak with Meditate and Swords Dance.
    Toxicroak Example (open)
    Swords Dance ~ Meditate ~ Poison Jab

    At the time of Poison Jab, Toxicroak will have +3 Attack. At the start of the next round, Toxicroak will still have +3 Attack because Meditate locked the Attack stat stage for that round. If Meditate or Swords Dance are not used in the next round, then at the end of that round Toxicroak will have +2 Attack.

    (R1) Swords Dance ~ Meditate ~ Poison Jab
    (R2) Swords Dance ~ Cross Chop ~ Meditate
    (R3) Pursuit ~ Pursuit ~ Pursuit

    At the time of Poison Jab, Toxicroak will have +3 Attack. At the start of R2, Toxicroak will still have +3 Attack. At the time of Cross Chop, Toxicroak will have +5 Attack. At the end of R2, Toxicroak will have +6 Attack. This is because the Meditate used during R2 both boosts the +5 to +6 and locks that stat stage for that round. For the entirety of R3, Toxicroak has +6 Attack, but since Meditate is not used, at the end of R3, Toxicroak has +5 Attack.
    [/box]
    This vote will be conducted in two parts.

    The first part covers Decay. This will be an IRV vote, where council members must vote all options in order of preference (Preferred option at top) for their vote to be counted. The options are:
    [box]What should we do about decay in terms of stat boosters?
    Retain the current decay system
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Remove the decay system altogether[/box]
    My specific decay proposal can be found here, while Leethoof's can be found here.

    Once we have decided that, then we will go on to the second part, which covers the arbitrary numbers that cover the stat boosting system. Both slates in this part will be IRV just like Part 1, the options being:
    [box]What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    1.5 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    2 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    3 DMG

    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Retain the current speed boosting system
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)[/box]
    Both of Engineer's Speed proposals can be found here.

    ... But the increments are not important. It is time, however, to vote on decay...
    [box]What should we do about decay in terms of stat boosters?
    Retain the current decay system
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Remove the decay system altogether[/box]
    A vote for option x means that option will be the new form of decay... Or unchanged if we retain the current system... Or lack of if we remove it together...

    First to four #1 votes is majority. Otherwise, time to vote.
  2. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    What should we do about decay in terms of stat boosters?
    Retain the current decay system
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Remove the decay system altogether

    If we want balance, then having decay is far superior compared to removing decay, then nerfing/buffing a bunch of shit to compensate. Honestly folks, a vote for keeping decay means a vote for retaining game balance, & especially after that test match that simulated no decay, I would not want to be on the receiving end of a non-decay abuser, especially in longer matches. If it is not broken, why "break" it?
  3. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    What should we do about decay in terms of stat boosters?
    Retain the current decay system
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Remove the decay system altogether
  4. Objection

    Objection

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    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Retain the current decay system
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Remove the decay system altogether
  5. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Remove the decay system altogether
    Retain the current decay system


    The reason I began this discussion of stat boosters was because the decay system was flawed in terms of complexity. I'm still not personally convinced that no decay, when it doesn't effect accuracy and evasion, is going to be broken (Although I would vote a lower boost if it passed) - and although it tops my voting list, I'm not going to cry that decay remains. I do believe a vote to retain the current system over one of the alternatives with decay is a vote to make Stat Boosters remain hard for the majority to understand.
  6. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    Retain the current decay system
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Remove the decay system altogether
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
  7. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    Remove the decay system altogether
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system
    Retain the current decay system

    I doubt I will make any difference, but I guess you knew my opinion from the past discussion anyway.
  8. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Never say never zarator

    So I really couldn't have cared less about this discussion. It seemed to me rather pointless and nitpicky, and very detail oriented and I couldn't stand. Unfortunately after 6 votes we find ourselves in a 3-3 tie between the current system and IAR's amendments. After careful review and clarifications for understanding the mechanics behind each system, my vote is as follows:

    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system

    In essence, IAR's system IS the current system, only streamlined to increase its ease of understanding. This is a good thing, and any potential buffs stemming from it should not overly increase the power of any Pokemon, despite any potential buffs to the per action damage. Despite my initial stance of not giving a fuck so might as well retain, IAR's system is the most beneficial both for the understanding of our current set of battlers, and certainly for the ease of entry to any new ASBers that may come in the future.
  9. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    itt Texas attempts to approximate an IRV script

    Retain the current decay system - 3
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system - 2
    Implement Leethoof's decay system
    Remove the decay system on any non-Accuracy/Evasion boosts and drops - 1
    Remove the decay system altogether - 1
    |
    |
    |
    Retain the current decay system - 3
    Implement Its_A_Random's decay system - 4

    Therefore, Its_A_Random's decay amendments will be adopted by ASB for use and will be edited into the Data Audit Thread. These amendments will apply to all new battles that may be started at the time of this post. Thanks for listening!
  10. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    Very well then.

    With the decay part of the vote handled with, it is time to deal with the second part of the vote (This vote is not done with yet), the one that covers the arbitrary shit that makes up the numbers the system uses. Standard IRV blah blah blah, your options are:
    [box]What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    1.5 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    2 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    3 DMG

    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Retain the current speed boosting system
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)[/box]
    You know the drill.
  11. Objection

    Objection

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    What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    2 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    3 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    1.5 DMG


    The damage output of stat boosts as they currently stand just isn't worth spending an action setting up unless you can hit +6 instantly. If we're going to make moves like Bulk Up and Swords Dance more viable (the fact that they aren't is the other half of the problem with stat boosts as they currently are), the damage has to be increased.

    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)
    Retain the current speed boosting system


    If the whole point of changing the speed boost values to how they are at the moment was to better reflect in-game, I counter with "in-game +2 speed is equal to Swift Swim, why isn't it like that in ASB?". As it stands, the fact that the increase from +1 to +2 is greater than that from 0 to +1 is just nonsensical.
  12. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    2 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    1.5 DMG
    3 DMG


    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Retain the current speed boosting system
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)
  13. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    2 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    1.5 DMG
    3 DMG

    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Retain the current speed boosting system
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)

    I honestly cannot see that much wrong with the current system, although it may be a bit powerful. But then again, I cannot really decide, so... yeah.
  14. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    2 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    1.5 DMG
    3 DMG


    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Retain the current speed boosting system
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
  15. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    2 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    1.5 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    3 DMG

    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)

    Retain the current speed boosting system
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)


    As the person who first suggested the revision of Speed boosts back then, I find that Engineer's 1.75 proposal is the one that best expresses what I hoped the system to be. The current system is, IMO, a fucked up mistake that happened because of a math issue (why would the progression be 1, 1.75, 3.5, 5.25 instead of 1, 1.75, 2.5, 3.25 etc? It makes no sense!).

    The 1.5 proposal is basically the old system and I oppose it for the same reasons I opposed it years ago.
  16. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    Increment:

    2 DMG
    3 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    1.5 DMG
    1.75 DMG


    Not that it matters in any way, but fuck decimals with the proverbial 10 foot barge pole.

    Speed Boosts:

    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
    Retain the current speed boosting system


    Yeah. Decimals. T_T
  17. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    What should the ± increment number for Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense Boosts be?
    2 DMG
    1.75 DMG
    1.5 DMG
    2.5 DMG
    3 DMG

    What should we do in terms of the Speed stat & how the Speed Stage affects Speed?
    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.75×)

    Implement Engineer Pikachu's speed boosting system (+1 = 1.5×)
    Retain the current speed boosting system

    e: and since i'm the last to vote i may as well tally them...

    [box]Increment Amount
    2 DMG - 7[/box]
    That's easy.

    [box]Speed System
    Retain - 3
    1.75x - 3
    1.50x - 1

    Retain - 3
    1.75x - 4[/box]
    The Speed system with positive increments of 75% speed per boost is now in effect.
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